Cost of gas, Soccer-mom image doom minivans

[Oracle of Delphi]

DETROIT - Asked recently how the U.S. minivan market has been faring, Nissan's Dominique Thormann had a concise answer.

"It collapsed," said Thormann, a senior vice president of Nissan North America.

While the rapid decline in pickup and sport utility sales has been grabbing the headlines, minivan sales have also taken a tumble, falling 20 percent in the first five months of this year.

And unlike trucks, which could rebound once the construction industry picks up, it's unclear if minivans have a future in the U.S. market or if they're being killed off by crossovers and the stodgy taint of the soccer mom image.

"The future of the segment is up in the air," said Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis for the Power Information Network, a division of J.D. Power and Associates. Libby said the advantages of minivans — the sliding doors and height — has been eroded by the negative image of minivans and consumer preference for SUV-like styling.

The slump reflects what's going on in the wider U.S. market. Overall auto sales were down 8 percent through May, and big vehicles like minivans took the brunt of it because of high gas prices. Large pickup truck sales fell 21 percent, while large SUVs were down 32 percent.

It doesn't help that families — minivans' target audience — have been particularly impacted by rising gas and food prices, falling home values and more difficulty in borrowing money, said Rebecca Lindland, an auto analyst for the Waltham, Mass.-based consulting company Global Insight.

"Everything that a family needs is more expensive right now, and so the last thing they're looking at is do they need to replace their Honda Odyssey," she said.

But even before the economy took its toll, families were migrating away from minivans. U.S. minivan sales peaked at 1.37 million in 2000, 17 years after Chrysler introduced them. They've been falling at a steady rate since then, to 793,335 last year. This year, sales are expected to fall below 650,000 for the first time since 1986.

One reason is the rise of crossovers, which offer similar space but more car-like handling. In March through May of 2004, 12 percent of minivan owners trading in their vehicles bought a crossover. That rose to 26 percent in the same period this year, according to the Power Information Network. Crossovers accounted for just 4 percent of the U.S. market in 2000; they now account for 19 percent.

Another reason for minivans' decline is that some players have left the market. General Motors Corp. will stop making minivans by the end of this year, while Ford Motor Co. quit producing the Ford Freestar and Mercury Monterey in 2006.

Thormann said Nissan has no plans to exit the market for now, despite a 34 percent drop in sales of the Nissan Quest so far this year. Thormann said that first, Nissan needs to figure out where large SUV buyers are going and whether they will choose to downsize to minivans.

"The fact is that the minivan hit a particular need. Then, that same need was satisfied — because fuel was cheap, because affordability was high — with an SUV," he said. "But once you're stuck up there and you're thinking, 'Oh, wait a minute, do I need to be a little bit more rational and do I need to come down a notch without sacrificing much utility?' Does the minivan become an alternative to that or is it the crossover?"

Story Continues on page 2: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25046105/

Edited June 8, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Duh.

Welcome to 2003.

I'd be willing to bet that before too long, minivans (called something else) will be doing quite fine.

[regfootball]

minivans get better mileage than most crossovers, and they are cheaper, yet mommy isn't sexy at 36 if she drives one and no one has learned how to style one yet.

to me also, vans do not have driver oriented interiors. they are like driving buses.

lambdas are the best compromise so far. that said. no wonder GM has four of them.

really though, reason number one. mommy can't play cougar on the side if she's driving around in a van. women are so obsessed with their sexiness even 15-20 years into marraige. they want to come off as divas and the vans don't work. don't worry, crossovers are headed to that place too. At some point, mom isn't gonna wanna be seen in that dodge journey either.

Edited June 9, 2008 by regfootball

[crash]

to me also, vans do not have driver oriented interiors. they are like driving buses.

thats because there family oriented which equals safe but boring

[bobo]

I think there may be a slight resurgence in the minivan segment as the practical alternative to monstrous full-size SUVs. I could even see myself get one in a couple of years, though a hybrid powertrain is a near-must for me. It looks like Toyota will be the first out with a hybrid minivan.

[pow]

Minivans and SUVs are definitely taking a hit. According to CarsDirect, you can get an Odyssey with $4,000 off MSRP, which means a brand new EX-L - now with rear view cam, 3-4-6 VCM, and sunroof - is only $1,000 more than what my parents paid for their EX-L back in 2003.

Interestingly sales for the Mazda5 went up 43% in May...

[ShadowDog]

If you want a true consumer point of view, look no further.

We needed a second vehicle to begin doing the things that her simpler Optra5 hatchback was becoming too small to do. So, my wife and I were looking at a variety of vehicles this past year and bought a Grand Caravan just last weekend. We looked at everything from the smaller crossovers like the Escape, to the larger of the SUVs like the Acadia. We tested a variety of crossovers and SUVs, reviewing mostly the practical needs of the vehicle. We drove and reviewed the Nissan Murano, Suzuki Grand Vitara, and checked out the information on a host of other vehicles. My wife drove a Pontiac Montana at work used to shuttle clients and that thing was a rattle-monger with half-working power side doors; however, she found so much practical use out of it that she was determined to take a serious look at the Caravan with its stow-n-go seating.

We quickly determined one thing after months of info searching: The grand majority of SUVs and crossovers have been so fluffed for comfort and techno-features that almost all of the practical use of them have disappeared. To me, they have become simply larger people-movers, as opposed to just having a full-size sedan. One quick observation showed us that, while their cargo room is larger than your average sedan or hatchback, it's mostly found in height. That does absolutely nothing for new families when you need one or two strollers, car seats and groceries. The only way to put all of that in the back is to stack it to the roof. They just were not practical enough for our needs. We looked at the Grand Caravan and immediately knew that it had everything we needed to be a versatile family vehicle.

After driving other vehicles, the van also felt quite comfortable to drive. We took it on a 1000 km round trip with our son, enjoying the floating-nature of the drive that really helped keep him satisfied. All of the bin-storage capacity while the seats were up gave us a great amount of organization. One seat-stow bin even served us to keep some beverages cold with the help of a freezer pack. That helped void the need for a cooler altogether.

At home, I set all the seats down and filled it full of recycling for a single trip to the bottle-depot and recycling site. When I previously borrowed a Trailblazer for the job, I had to make those trips separate. All things considered, this makes it a far more fuel efficient answer to the rising fuel costs.

My wife could give a crap about image or stereotypes. We bought it because it served a greater number of our needs for many years to come.

If the industry doesn't return to the practical aspect of building the minivan again, it might just be that consumers have too much pride that keeps them from buying one. Some buyers just need something bigger than a car, so that's accepted; however, a countless number of people I see every day are using SUVs as a daily driver with simple to-and-fro trips to the grocery store for that evening's dinner needs. I know this because it's something I see from my office window overlooking a parking lot.

Edited June 9, 2008 by ShadowDog

[pow]

I think there may be a slight resurgence in the minivan segment as the practical alternative to monstrous full-size SUVs. I could even see myself get one in a couple of years, though a hybrid powertrain is a near-must for me. It looks like Toyota will be the first out with a hybrid minivan.

Minivans can be nice to drive, and they're infinitely practical. I actually really enjoy driving the Ody, which has a very nice driving position, great outward visibility, and immediate throttle response. With a higher profile vehicle, it's fun not having to slow down as much for speed bumps and the like.

Toyota currently makes an Estima Hybrid. I've ridden in the non-hybrid Estima (2.4) and the previous-gen (3.0; below), and they're actually pretty cool...

It's about the size of the first Sienna but slightly narrower. We managed to fit eight people, and after three days, there weren't too many complaints. The third row stows into the floor.

Edited June 9, 2008 by empowah

[pow]

Some other interesting vans...

Toyota Alphard... these are the black Suburbans, and they come with the equivalent of sofas in the second row...

[regfootball]

local off lease dealer i've bought from before has been getting batches of 06 and 07 sedona / entourage....most of them under 10k miles and the most recent batch of 07's they have been pricing around 15k. it kills me to consider korean pop cans but the sedona has good basic competence. At least you can manually shift the tranny and its kind of got a floor shifter. To me alone, that might be alright to be seen in one of those things. Maybe i should go test drive one again. Its been a couple years.

[Jazzhead]

Porblem with minivans is they aren't so mini anymore. Chrysler should put out a cheap, short-wheelbase version of the Caravan, just like they did before the current generation. No stow-n-go, just a small, space-efficient vehicle that can haul a driver and six kids to a baseball game, or a family of four and their gear on a road trip.

[Drew Dowdell]

The article is wrong. Sales of Mini-vans <Mazda 5, Kia Rondo, Dodge Journey> are way up. VW would be wise to bring the Touran over here. Saturn would do well with the Opel Meriva, Zafira, and an Insignia Caravan. Likewise Ford C-max, S-max, and Mondeo wagon.

It's the Full sized vans <Odyssey, Sienna, Town & Country> that are way down. Nothing that tips the scales over 4,500 lbs deserves to be called "mini"

[enzl]

Porblem with minivans is they aren't so mini anymore. Chrysler should put out a cheap, short-wheelbase version of the Caravan, just like they did before the current generation. No stow-n-go, just a small, space-efficient vehicle that can haul a driver and six kids to a baseball game, or a family of four and their gear on a road trip.

They do.

It's called a Dodge Journey...and the Avg. Transaction Price is probably $1,000s more than the SWB minivans were getting.

The mini-minivans (5, Rondo) are still a small (albeit growing) part of the market...

[Intrepidation]

The Journey replaced the SWB Caravan, as enzl pointed out.

For several years we used the Shadows (then the Intrepid and Prizm) instead of the Caravan, however after getting the T&C we once again grew appreciative of just how useful and efficient a Minivan is. Nothing beats them for practicality. Our current `07 Grand Caravan rental has Stow `n Go..and that feature alone would sell me. You get far more space in a minivan, and with the Chrysler vans both rows can fold away in a couple seconds. Combine this with tons of storage features and plenty of convenience features, it's easy to see why smart people who aren't obsessed with being hip, yo. buy them. Down the line my driveway will certainly have one of these.

[CARBIZ]

It's the same snobby writers who aided and abetted the rise of SUVs that are complicit in the rise of 'cross-overs.'

How many more times are we going to reinvent the station wagon?

Minivans are the best of all worlds for a family. Hopefully, GM will soon start offering their better offerings from Europe.

[Drew Dowdell]

The longer I drive the Roadmaster Estate, the more I think that type of vehicle needs to make a reappearance. It has versatility that rivals the Avalanche. It had "stow and go" and "in bed trunk" before either were a twinkle in Chrysler's and Honda's eye respectively.

If GM could design a modern version of this car with all the same capabilities, including the all important ability to haul a 4x8 sheet of whatever, make it unibody, make it RWD or AWD, and put a decent V6 in it, they'd clean house.

Trouble is, everyone would want it to handle like a 3-series and it would get blasted for not having a sub-4 second 0-60 time.

edit: Chrysler came close with the Magnum. I loved the looks from the outside. It was the terrible interior that killed it for me.

[regfootball]

The Journey replaced the SWB Caravan, as enzl pointed out.

For several years we used the Shadows (then the Intrepid and Prizm) instead of the Caravan, however after getting the T&C we once again grew appreciative of just how useful and efficient a Minivan is. Nothing beats them for practicality. Our current `07 Grand Caravan rental has Stow `n Go..and that feature alone would sell me. You get far more space in a minivan, and with the Chrysler vans both rows can fold away in a couple seconds. Combine this with tons of storage features and plenty of convenience features, it's easy to see why smart people who aren't obsessed with being hip, yo. buy them. Down the line my driveway will certainly have one of these.

the virtues of a minivan are unbelievable. the issue here is the automakers have not figured out how to make them sexy. if they ever do (which is entirely possible if they just TRY) then i think the segment will rebound.

[Sixty8panther]

With all due respect...

(I know D.F..... stow-n-go, SUV storage/cargo capacity w/out sucktastic-MPGs etc.)

The minivan can die a quick death.

If I ever needed to get a van it would MOST certainly have a SBC driving the REAR

wheels, it would probably have a black paint job w/ a big red hockey stick stripe, a

spoiler on the roof & a C.B. radio.

I don wanna hea' no jibba-jabba 'bout Front Wheel Drive, SUCKA!

[pow]

They do.

It's called a Dodge Journey...and the Avg. Transaction Price is probably $1,000s more than the SWB minivans were getting.

The mini-minivans (5, Rondo) are still a small (albeit growing) part of the market...

The Journey, and all crossovers for that matter, compromise styling for interior space. I know the old SWB minivans weren't exactly cool, but because of the low floor, high roof, and short hood, they could fit far more stuff.

[cletus8269]

dont forget the exposed headers 68 hehe

Edited June 9, 2008 by cletus8269

[pow]

What I'd love to see is a ~2011 Odyssey with a 2.4 liter direct-injection engine (~210 hp), IMA (~25 hp), CVT, and a curb weight of around 4000 lbs. It could lose 500 lbs from lighter wheels (the current PAX run-flats weigh 75 lbs a corner), lighter seats, composite materials, leaner engineering, slightly smaller dimensions...

[Intrepidation]

The longer I drive the Roadmaster Estate, the more I think that type of vehicle needs to make a reappearance. It has versatility that rivals the Avalanche. It had "stow and go" and "in bed trunk" before either were a twinkle in Chrysler's and Honda's eye respectively.

If GM could design a modern version of this car with all the same capabilities, including the all important ability to haul a 4x8 sheet of whatever, make it unibody, make it RWD or AWD, and put a decent V6 in it, they'd clean house.

Trouble is, everyone would want it to handle like a 3-series and it would get blasted for not having a sub-4 second 0-60 time.

edit: Chrysler came close with the Magnum. I loved the looks from the outside. It was the terrible interior that killed it for me.

What about the post-refresh Magnum? Also I think teh Sportwagon would come pretty close. Howevr they only seat 5. Minivans seat 7-8...for large families or families who have a lot of people to travel with, you still can't beat `em.

the virtues of a minivan are unbelievable. the issue here is the automakers have not figured out how to make them sexy. if they ever do (which is entirely possible if they just TRY) then i think the segment will rebound.

This is the problem: They don't need to be sexy. They're practicle, no orgasm machines that should handle like a BMW and go faster than a Veyron. People just don' seem to get that. Buy a van, and buy a Sky or whatever...problem solved. When you try to add exterior "style" it either compromises space or makes it look weird (Nissan).

[Sixty8panther]

dont forget the exposed headers 68 hehe

Fu$%in' right!

I'm tryin' REAL hard but I CAN NOT think of one other van that

can be described as "cool" or "exciting". This is the ONE & only

anomaly as far as non-sleep inducing vans go.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The slump reflects what's going on in the wider U.S. market. Overall auto sales were down 8 percent through May, and big vehicles like minivans took the brunt of it because of high gas prices. Large pickup truck sales fell 21 percent, while large SUVs were down 32 percent.

Will this stupidity never end? Minivans are NOT big vehicles.

"The fact is that the minivan hit a particular need. Then, that same need was satisfied — because fuel was cheap, because affordability was high — with an SUV," he said. "But once you're stuck up there and you're thinking, 'Oh, wait a minute, do I need to be a little bit more rational and do I need to come down a notch without sacrificing much utility?' Does the minivan become an alternative to that or is it the crossover?"

Nope...

But I'd bet a ZETA BASED wagon or crossover would!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The longer I drive the Roadmaster Estate, the more I think that type of vehicle needs to make a reappearance. It has versatility that rivals the Avalanche. It had "stow and go" and "in bed trunk" before either were a twinkle in Chrysler's and Honda's eye respectively.

If GM could design a modern version of this car with all the same capabilities, including the all important ability to haul a 4x8 sheet of whatever, make it unibody, make it RWD or AWD, and put a decent V6 in it, they'd clean house.

Trouble is, everyone would want it to handle like a 3-series and it would get blasted for not having a sub-4 second 0-60 time.

edit: Chrysler came close with the Magnum. I loved the looks from the outside. It was the terrible interior that killed it for me.

*Clears throat** Zeta.

[Drew Dowdell]

Will this stupidity never end? Minivans are NOT big vehicles.

What are you talking about? The current crop of mini-vans is within an inch in length to the Lucerne and out weigh it by 200-800 lbs! There are Mini-vans that are heavier than my BOF Roadmaster Estate!

[Drew Dowdell]

*Clears throat** Zeta.

I don't think it's quite big enough to do the 4x8 sheet and 3 row thing, but I agree in principle.

[Sixty8panther]

Agreed about Zeta.

And Oldsmoboi: I only owned my '94 Buick R.E. for a couple months

but it was indeed amazing to me how much big, bulky $#it you could

cram in that huge, wide cargo area. Your crazy custom nose job is

something that would have made me REALLY fall in love with my '94,

I only got rid of it cause I did not have the time or $ to put in a new

trans. which the beat to &#036;h&#33; 120K+ mile car needed badly.

[enzl]

The Journey, and all crossovers for that matter, compromise styling for interior space. I know the old SWB minivans weren't exactly cool, but because of the low floor, high roof, and short hood, they could fit far more stuff.

100% right.

I was just saying that's how they replaced it. And it appears to be selling pretty well without incentives--something that can't be said about the rest of Chrysler's line-up (Challenger excluded, of course.)

[CSpec]

I think that GM was ahead of its time with the Rendezvous. It always got pretty good mileage (24 mpg highway), has a low, wide, loading bay, and has a very high roof. The headroom and interior space are fantastic, with a relatively small exterior footprint.

[regfootball]

I think that GM was ahead of its time with the Rendezvous. It always got pretty good mileage (24 mpg highway), has a low, wide, loading bay, and has a very high roof. The headroom and interior space are fantastic, with a relatively small exterior footprint.

exactly. (don't forget its ugly cousin aztek, sans third row). maybe Buickman was on to something.

the RDV may be ugly but it was well packaged. if you want to sit in a spiritual successor to the RDV's packaging, go check out a hyundai veracruz. Its almost the same thing in some ways.

[Chicagoland]

False story. According to NADA website, there are more inquires on mini-vans since the $4 threshold was passed this month. Car guys assume that everyone wants to drive a sports car or huge truck, but don't have a clue about the 90% of buyers who don't care about image and status, and 0-60 times.

[Robert Hall]

False story. According to NADA website, there are more inquires on mini-vans since the $4 threshold was passed this month. Car guys assume that everyone wants to drive a sports car or huge truck, but don't have a clue about the 90% of buyers who don't care about image and status, and 0-60 times.

One would think the interest in minivans would spike, since they are usually lighter and more fuel efficient (and more practical) than CUVs or SUVs.... which of course is ironic since Ford and now GM have gotten out of the market in the US...

[MyerShift]

The Journey, and all crossovers for that matter, compromise styling for interior space. I know the old SWB minivans weren't exactly cool, but because of the low floor, high roof, and short hood, they could fit far more stuff.

Which reminds me.

Has anyone other than myself crammed themselves into the third row of the Dodge Journey?

Talk about a cramped pit of hell!

The Dodge Caravan/Plymouth Voyager (like my girlfriend's mom has) is/was infinitely more practical, comfortable, and useful than the tight, claustrophic and virtually useless last row of the Journey.

Once when my Plymouth Breeze was in the shop for a couple of days, the dealership gave me a new at the time 2006 Dodge Caravan. It drove nicely, was quiet, and you know what?

I'm the 21 year old that WOULD DRIVE A MINIVAN!

[Intrepidation]

I loved driving the bus...I miss it.

[Sixty8panther]

A FWD, Unibody 198X Chrysler minivan is not a "BUS"

A RWD, BOF, 6 foot stretch, 1990 Chevrolet Suburban can be referred to as a "BUS" :wink:

[Robert Hall]

I'm the 21 year old that WOULD DRIVE A MINIVAN!

I've never really cared for minivans, since I don't fit the demographic and don't have a need for one, but I thought the Ford Windstar Limited from around 2002 in black w/chrome wheels was a sharp looking ride... black minivans are a fairly rare sighting.

[Intrepidation]

A FWD, Unibody 198X Chrysler minivan is not a "BUS"

A RWD, BOF, 6 foot stretch, 1990 Chevrolet Suburban can be referred to as a "BUS" :wink:

We can nickname it anything we want thank you very much. Last time I checked it was still a free country.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Dodgefan

[ShadowDog]

Where mentioned that the 4500 lb. stretch-version of any van is oddly considered a "mini-van", being that they are pretty near the same size as our good ol' A-Team shaggin'-wagon, I would have to agree that they represent a class of their own with the exception of a few major details: FWD, unibody construction (sans ladder frame), and more versatile.

Came home today from a trip to get boxes for our move. I threw twenty in the back in one level row and easily had room for as many as 45-50. Had I a truck, I would have needed to tie them all down. Got home, unloaded, pulled the seats out of the floor, put my kid in the car seat, picked up our friends and we all went out for dinner ten minutes after I originally pulled in the driveway fully loaded.

Minivans still have a place in this world, more now than ever. Some people just don't want the added convenience over vanity.

[regfootball]

I've never really cared for minivans, since I don't fit the demographic and don't have a need for one, but I thought the Ford Windstar Limited from around 2002 in black w/chrome wheels was a sharp looking ride... black minivans are a fairly rare sighting.

all that glass and black paint would really tax the A/C

[pow]

all that glass and black paint would really tax the A/C

It's actually not too bad. What sucks instead are paint chips and swirl marks. Black paint looks nice - there's a nice slimming effect on minivans - but it's a PITA to maintain.

[Drew Dowdell]

A FWD, Unibody 198X Chrysler minivan is not a "BUS"

A RWD, BOF, 6 foot stretch, 1990 Chevrolet Suburban can be referred to as a "BUS" :wink:

don't you ever get tired of saying the same thing over and over again?

[Sixty8panther]

don't you ever get tired of saying the same thing over and over again?

Are you talking to ME or the 70% or so of this forum

that is constantly getting their panties in a bunch

over the number of cup holders in a FWD, unibody

crossover/SUV or the grain/texture of the door

panels & other idiotic qualities like opaque vs. matte

instrumentation needles.

I could care less about most of the attributes you guys

consider "important" and just because I'm in the minority

does NOT mean my opinion is any less valid.

P.S. Take a joke.

[gm4life]

Minivans are not cool... Let me tell you two stories... The wife and always went round and round a few times through-out the years on the mini-van thing... I am not opposed to them like I once used to be aka before the GM "Space Shuttle" then after that I started to warm up to them. Take figure A in 1994 when the Colt died (I know it is not listed in my sig as my wife had it and never considered it a part of my GM fleet) I started considering a Transport with a 3800 but that proved to pricey and my wife didn't want an un-cool minivan she suggested a Century Station Wagon. (hahahah) Well we got my aunts 7 year old Delta 88 with 35,000 miles on here and drove that puppy into the groud when the trans went in 2001 then got the Impala. Fast-foward to 2005 when I was Bonneville shopping and found my SLE my wife asked about a new Venture I about sh*t my pants I just said honey no. I had my heart set on my over-sized Poncho boat and the last year for the Bonneville and the only year for the SLE with GXP styling. So the Venture was out and honestly I said honey we'd have to wait till 2006 when the SV6 gets a 3.9L V6 but that never happend. When we got the Torrent my wife said I don't want a minivan and I said good Pontiac doesn't have one anymore and now that they have a Torrent you wouldn't win that battle anyways.

My sister got sick of here 1998 Plymouth Voyager SE with a 3.3L V6 and tinted windows etc, (it had near 200K on here) and got a used a 2000 Lexus RX 300 AWD with 82K on it she said minivans were dorky and it was the last one she would drive. So after years of DCX minivans my aunt got here first Lexus. As popular as the once were they are sure not anymore.

[ShadowDog]

Minivans are not cool... my wife didn't want an un-cool minivan... she said minivans were dorky...

Unless any of these views had reasoning where there may have been a void in practical need, they are simply vanity-based. At this point, given the significant expense in fuel and insurance, people would have to weigh some serious decisions to justify paying more to have less, all in the effort to avoid losing their dignity.

Unless I'm in a minority, I don't think about the person driving a vehicle when I see a vehicle. I don't think a woman is less-sexy because she drives a mini-van. Heck, if anything, when I see a woman driving a monster SUV with 22" wheels, low profile tire and no kids with her, I still don't pass judgement; that is, even if I figure it being completely pointless.

[Robert Hall]

Are you talking to ME or the 70% or so of this forum

that is constantly getting their panties in a bunch

over the number of cup holders in a FWD, unibody

crossover/SUV or the grain/texture of the door

panels & other idiotic qualities like opaque vs. matte

instrumentation needles.

I could care less about most of the attributes you guys

consider "important" and just because I'm in the minority

does NOT mean my opinion is any less valid.

P.S. Take a joke.

But you keep repeating the same rants (RWD, BOF, hardtops, blah, blah, blah) over and over and over again. How about trying to freshen up your schtick, find other subjects to discuss? Besides, you'll never buy a new car, so why bother posting in threads about subjects that aren't 30 years old?

Edited June 11, 2008 by moltar

[gm4life]

Unless any of these views had reasoning where there may have been a void in practical need, they are simply vanity-based. At this point, given the significant expense in fuel and insurance, people would have to weigh some serious decisions to justify paying more to have less, all in the effort to avoid losing their dignity.

Unless I'm in a minority, I don't think about the person driving a vehicle when I see a vehicle. I don't think a woman is less-sexy because she drives a mini-van. Heck, if anything, when I see a woman driving a monster SUV with 22" wheels, low profile tire and no kids with her, I still don't pass judgement; that is, even if I figure it being completely pointless.

They do have reasoning they are ugly. I never said it made anyone less attractive. My reasoning is I don't like them and don't think they are as stylish. Where did you come from?

Why can't I dislike min-vans? I do like the touring edition odessey and new caravan.

[Intrepidation]

Minivans are not cool... Let me tell you two stories... The wife and always went round and round a few times through-out the years on the mini-van thing... I am not opposed to them like I once used to be aka before the GM "Space Shuttle" then after that I started to warm up to them. Take figure A in 1994 when the Colt died (I know it is not listed in my sig as my wife had it and never considered it a part of my GM fleet) I started considering a Transport with a 3800 but that proved to pricey and my wife didn't want an un-cool minivan she suggested a Century Station Wagon. (hahahah) Well we got my aunts 7 year old Delta 88 with 35,000 miles on here and drove that puppy into the groud when the trans went in 2001 then got the Impala. Fast-foward to 2005 when I was Bonneville shopping and found my SLE my wife asked about a new Venture I about sh*t my pants I just said honey no. I had my heart set on my over-sized Poncho boat and the last year for the Bonneville and the only year for the SLE with GXP styling. So the Venture was out and honestly I said honey we'd have to wait till 2006 when the SV6 gets a 3.9L V6 but that never happend. When we got the Torrent my wife said I don't want a minivan and I said good Pontiac doesn't have one anymore and now that they have a Torrent you wouldn't win that battle anyways.

My sister got sick of here 1998 Plymouth Voyager SE with a 3.3L V6 and tinted windows etc, (it had near 200K on here) and got a used a 2000 Lexus RX 300 AWD with 82K on it she said minivans were dorky and it was the last one she would drive. So after years of DCX minivans my aunt got here first Lexus. As popular as the once were they are sure not anymore.

So...the moral of the story is people are too hung up on vanity and looking "cool"...?

Hate to break it to these people, but an SUV or CUV, with rare exception, isn't much cooler.

[FAPTurbo]

It seems like every time I go shopping, there's always some hot-to-trot mom who's always trying to stuff her groceries and kids into a Mini Cooper, or Smart Car. It's really dumb.

[CARBIZ]

Unless any of these views had reasoning where there may have been a void in practical need, they are simply vanity-based. At this point, given the significant expense in fuel and insurance, people would have to weigh some serious decisions to justify paying more to have less, all in the effort to avoid losing their dignity.

Unless I'm in a minority, I don't think about the person driving a vehicle when I see a vehicle. I don't think a woman is less-sexy because she drives a mini-van. Heck, if anything, when I see a woman driving a monster SUV with 22" wheels, low profile tire and no kids with her, I still don't pass judgement; that is, even if I figure it being completely pointless.

Automobiles are merely an extension of fashion. Odds are the same woman who will spend $800 on a pair of shoes won't be caught dead in a minivan. Same goes for her BF. It has always been thus. Anybody who bought a Studebaker was pretty much considered a loser, which is one of the main reasons Studebaker went under: they could not shake their stodgy image. Chrysler would have gone the way of the dodo, too, if not for the '55 Chrysler 300 and the revolutionary '57 finned chariots.

The likes of Audi, BMW and Mercedes would not even exist if this were not true, for how can anyone seriously justify $100k for a BMW, over a loaded Acura, Buick, or Mazda?