08 STS

[6t5frlane]

So my buddy pulls into my driveway yesterday with a new V8 STS. Looks like a bluish/grey color. Car was pretty stunning to look at. I get in...BAM. Man what a bland interior. On top of that, is there almost no rear leg room???. So this is what 55K gets ya? Overall not bad but average at best on the inside. I did not take a drive but I'm sure there is plenty of power and he said handling was pretty good. lWhats next for this model

[Drew Dowdell]

You were expecting George Lucas?

Interiors need to be functional and handsome.

[Lamar]

That's always been the knock on the current STS (original and facelifted). It's not bad IMO, but I dunno why they didn't update the interior for this year.

[FAPTurbo]

When people comment on the STS' interior, it's ...'plasticky'...'boring' and 'bland'...

But when people jump into a Bimmer's interior it's ... 'Teutonic' and 'driver-oriented' ...

[Drew Dowdell]

I just don't see it, they're both conservative and subtle:

How is this

Driver oriented and Teutonic?

While this

isn't?

The both are horizontally oriented and flat with no canting towards the driver. The 1st gen CTS and both generations of Aurora have more driver oriented interiors than either of these vehicles. The center stack of the 5-er looks really jumbled to me. The center stack's buttons on the STS look a bit small in their packaging.

btw, Teutonic means Germanic... so BMW forwarding "teutonic" as a desirable trait is a bit like Listerine inventing "chronic halitosis".

By definition, this counts as "Teutonic" also:

arg... I'll fix the picture links later when I'm not hindered by the webnazi at work.

[enzl]

I just don't see it, they're both conservative and subtle:

How is this

Driver oriented and Teutonic?

While this

isn't?

The both are horizontally oriented and flat with no canting towards the driver. The 1st gen CTS and both generations of Aurora have more driver oriented interiors than either of these vehicles. The center stack of the 5-er looks really jumbled to me. The center stack's buttons on the STS look a bit small in their packaging.

btw, Teutonic means Germanic... so BMW forwarding "teutonic" as a desirable trait is a bit like Listerine inventing "chronic halitosis".

By definition, this counts as "Teutonic" also:

Is there any reason to select the STS over the CTS in the same showroom?

That's what kills the STS, not comparisons to BMW interiors (which have been cheapened & aren't the reason to buy a BMW in the first place.)

[pow]

The STS rear seat is tiny compared to the 5er's, especially when you consider exterior dimensions. It might be the bulky sunroof and front seat tracks.

[Drew Dowdell]

Is there any reason to select the STS over the CTS in the same showroom?

That's what kills the STS, not comparisons to BMW interiors (which have been cheapened & aren't the reason to buy a BMW in the first place.)

DOHC V8 <for those who can't handle the thought of pushrods>

More conservative styling both inside and out.

The STS does feel slightly bigger inside. The new CTS feels smaller inside than the first model.

not saying I would decide in that direction... just listing possible reasons.

[Intrepidation]

DOHC V8 <for those who can't handle the thought of pushrods>

More conservative styling both inside and out.

The STS does feel slightly bigger inside. The new CTS feels smaller inside than the first model.

not saying I would decide in that direction... just listing possible reasons.

Problem is those aren't nearly good enough. The strongest argument, the V8, is a weak one too, not only because of gas prices but reviews of the car mention that the 3.6 is so good, the V8 isn't necessary. The CTS is just a better car in pretty much every way.

[VenSeattle]

I prefer the exterior of the updated STS to the CTS. The CTS exterior styling is great in the evenings or for special occasions, but is somewhat overwrought for repetitive boring domesticated tasks.

Interior-wise, the CTS is more exciting to look at and is definitely the preferred choice.

Being truthful (and open for bashing), if they were priced the same, I'd go for the STS. But I certainly wouldn't pay more for the STS. The STS just doesn't offer anything over the CTS. Unfortunately, as stated above, I couldn't live with the CTS exterior styling on a daily basis. It's just not my personality.

The Buick Invicta or Alpha-based Buick will probably have the interior creature comforts I expect but come wrapped in a more livable and subdued exterior.

My personal feelings are one of the reasons I don't find a problem with Buick and Cadillac both existing in the premium/luxury markets. I can see distinct character differences between the brands and don't consider one over the other. I, however, wouldn't want either brand to compromise itself trying to cover both ends of the market spectrum.

[The O.C.]

When people comment on the STS' interior, it's ...'plasticky'...'boring' and 'bland'...

But when people jump into a Bimmer's interior it's ... 'Teutonic' and 'driver-oriented' ...

The materials and craftsmanship inside any BMW are far superior to the STS.......and as far as "driver-oriented"....it's the seats, a smaller steering wheel, clear, readable gauges that offer absolutely no flash at all, etc.

BMW interiors seem like "cockpits." Most Caddy interiors (CTS excepted now finally) still seem like barcalounger living rooms.

I'd say the STS is not bad, per se, but not up to the level of it's competition at the price point it plays in. Also, too much "retro" GM in the controls, fittings, plastics.....(as opposed to, say, CTS.)

[The O.C.]

I prefer the exterior of the updated STS to the CTS. The CTS exterior styling is great in the evenings or for special occasions, but is somewhat overwrought for repetitive boring domesticated tasks.

Interior-wise, the CTS is more exciting to look at and is definitely the preferred choice.

Being truthful (and open for bashing), if they were priced the same, I'd go for the STS. But I certainly wouldn't pay more for the STS. The STS just doesn't offer anything over the CTS. Unfortunately, as stated above, I couldn't live with the CTS exterior styling on a daily basis. It's just not my personality.

The Buick Invicta or Alpha-based Buick will probably have the interior creature comforts I expect but come wrapped in a more livable and subdued exterior.

My personal feelings are one of the reasons I don't find a problem with Buick and Cadillac both existing in the premium/luxury markets. I can see distinct character differences between the brands and don't consider one over the other. I, however, wouldn't want either brand to compromise itself trying to cover both ends of the market spectrum.

For the record, we get more traffic and attention on the DTS than we do the STS. STS just seems like a bastard step-child that sits on the lot and rots.

Sad when you consider the second-gen "STS" was Cadillac's first step into the mainstream to battle the high-end imports. And there for awhile, it was pretty good at it....FWD and all.....

People that like the CTS are bored by the STS, and see it as resolutely old-school GM....where as the CTS is gunning for BMW and Benz.

DTS pulls in the old fogeys.....who wouldn't look at a CTS or STS.

(However, that being said, we'd be much more successful with a modern, RWD, full-size STS/DTS replacement that could stand toe-to-toe with the larger and more expensive imports.)

[Sixty8panther]

I've got NO problem with the STS' interior. I like it actually.

Anything that's modern and NOT trimmed in stainless steel

with gorgeous metallic thread & loads of brightwork is a

disappointing interior to me after my '64 Super88.

That having been said I'd rather have a ultra-low-milage

1996 Fleetwood Brougham, cherry/tan, or a beat up & worn

1961 Sedan DeVille with lifter noise than a brand new STS,

price being no object.

Although the '61 would set me back a meere $3000 - $8000

and the 96 FB a paltry $20,000.

[regfootball]

ive seen a few 08 sts on the road lately and the front end changes really add presence to the car. the DI v6 makes for a hot rod. Problem is, same old dumpy interior. Where is the chinese STS interior? one example of GM's piss poor decision making.

I'd enjoy an sts as my car but would be longing for something with a nicer interior.

Edited June 6, 2008 by regfootball

[VenSeattle]

For the record, we get more traffic and attention on the DTS than we do the STS. STS just seems like a bastard step-child that sits on the lot and rots.

Sad when you consider the second-gen "STS" was Cadillac's first step into the mainstream to battle the high-end imports. And there for awhile, it was pretty good at it....FWD and all.....

People that like the CTS are bored by the STS, and see it as resolutely old-school GM....where as the CTS is gunning for BMW and Benz.

DTS pulls in the old fogeys.....who wouldn't look at a CTS or STS.

(However, that being said, we'd be much more successful with a modern, RWD, full-size STS/DTS replacement that could stand toe-to-toe with the larger and more expensive imports.)

Well, everyone was comparing the CTS and STS... so I limited myself to those in my comment.

We've had this conversation before... The DTS Platinum is the only DTS I would consider... it's beautiful, but it's also not worth the price. If I went with the STS, it would be the Platinum as well, which seems to take care of the interior "dullness" for the most part. Unfortunately, I agree with everyone that there are far better vehicles in the $45k-$70k price range than the STS... in V6 & V8 form.

I've always liked the G-platform-based STS. As I've mentioned in another topic - after looking at the 2003 STS resale value compared to my Park Avenue, I'm very thankful I didn't go with the STS back in 2003.

I also agree with your last statement... a proper full-size RWD/AWD sedan to replace the STS & DTS is exactly what Cadillac needs above CTS.

[Satty]

I haven't really been paying attention, does the Chinese STS still have a nicer (looking at least) interior?

[VenSeattle]

ive seen a few 08 sts on the raod lately and the front end changes really add presence to the car. the DI v6 makes for a hot rod. Problem is, same old dumpy interior. Where is the chinese STS interior? one example of GM's piss poor decision making.

I'd enjoy an sts as my car but would be longing for something with a nicer interior.

Completely agree... I pass a refreshed 'Blue Chip' STS during the commute home every day. We're always going opposite of each other. It looks great. I'd go STS4 3.6l in Black Cherry with black leather myself.

[VenSeattle]

I haven't really been paying attention, does the Chinese STS still have a nicer (looking at least) interior?

OMG yes...

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadil...e-pics-sls.html

[balthazar]

I see a truely surprising quantity of STSs around by me- what is their annual production number vs. the CTS?

[crash]

OMG yes...

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadil...e-pics-sls.html

Now thats an interior of a $55000 car, why China keeps getting all the good stuff they have this STS with a great interior and they also have the Park Avenue with an even better interior

[ZL-1]

Really sad to see the STS dragging itself, since the CTS shows Cadillac can do much better.

[Drew Dowdell]

The materials and craftsmanship inside any BMW are far superior to the STS.......and as far as "driver-oriented"....it's the seats, a smaller steering wheel, clear, readable gauges that offer absolutely no flash at all, etc.

BMW interiors seem like "cockpits." Most Caddy interiors (CTS excepted now finally) still seem like barcalounger living rooms.

I'd say the STS is not bad, per se, but not up to the level of it's competition at the price point it plays in. Also, too much "retro" GM in the controls, fittings, plastics.....(as opposed to, say, CTS.)

It's no wonder GM is struggling when they have salesmen like you.....

[enzl]

It's no wonder GM is struggling when they have salesmen like you.....

Or perhaps he's just reflecting the reality of the marketplace?

The STS is currently in limbo, as we all know a STS/DTS replacement is needed yesterday. The fact that the Chinese STS interior is available, fully developed & flat out looks better is kinda embarassing, no?

I hope that a 16 influenced replacement can bring Caddy into competition with the other Lux-brands in this sector.

[Drew Dowdell]

Or perhaps he's just reflecting the reality of the marketplace?

The STS is currently in limbo, as we all know a STS/DTS replacement is needed yesterday. The fact that the Chinese STS interior is available, fully developed & flat out looks better is kinda embarassing, no?

I hope that a 16 influenced replacement can bring Caddy into competition with the other Lux-brands in this sector.

A Cadillac salesman who talks his customers into BMWs?

[DBeaSSt]

I've sat in both the CTS and STS ('08 models) though I've not driven either. At just over 6' tall, while I fit comfortably in both, I find that the STS just feels more roomy.

Since the back seat is mainly for my lunch and bag for the trip to work, I've not looked at back seat space. Besides, no modern Caddy (except maybe the DTS-L) has anywhere near the rear seat room of my '95 Fleetwood.

I actually like the interior of both even though I will certainly agree that the CTS looks and feels much more refined. As for the exterior I like the STS better simply because it looks like a bigger car and it's more sedate looking. Again, still small compared to my Fleetwood. I'd actually take the DTS over either (again, bigger car) but I'm not interested in FWD.

I will say though that the STS interior without the NAV just looks plain cheap! I'm not one to care about NAV but wouldn't buy one without it since the center stack just looks like it's missing something without it. Interestingly, the CTS I sat in was a "base" model and didn't have the pop up NAV. I found it actually looked fine without it.

Just my .02 of course, your mileage may vary....

[gm4life]

I really like the new 2008 STS more than the 2008 CTS. Yes many disagree but the styling and lines on the STS are more me. I would never get a V8 in an STS a Diamond White V6 RWD with Luxury Performance Package and Sport Package with Nav for me please. The car is bigger inside and out than a CTS and that never hurts I am not a small guy after all. Tell your buddy I wish him the best of luck with it.

[The O.C.]

A Cadillac salesman who talks his customers into BMWs?

That's an idiotic comment....and you KNOW IT.....

Of course I don't talk Cadillac customers into BMWs.......doesn't mean I don't still have my internal opinions on GM and it's competition....

[VenSeattle]

That's an idiotic comment....and you KNOW IT.....

Of course I don't talk Cadillac customers into BMWs.......doesn't mean I don't still have my internal opinions on GM and it's competition....

I don't know if that's such an idiotic comment or not O.C...

Oldsmoboi buys new Cadillacs and I buy new Buicks. You're constantly addressing GM new car buyers all the time here on C&G. The irony is that you and Enzl both work for GM dealer groups and are determined more than any other member to convince all the "stupid/fanatical/blind" GM fan members on C&G that every other manufacturer is better than GM - from product, marketing, technology, engineering, etc... even Hyundai and Kia.

The Incessant degrading from you two about GM products could convince just about any half-interested GM shopper or GM owner to reconsider and shop a foreign manufacturer. Afterall, the Internet is the #1 source for researching a car purchase.

If I were to take everything you two say at face value, I'd never walk into a Cadillac or Chevrolet dealership, let alone the dealerships you two actually work for. This very issue makes me wonder about one of Enzl's previous points in the other topic:

Personally, I think it's incredibly short-sighted and selfish to want to be correct so badly that you'll sacrifice GM's future. Without people of my mindset, nothing would be advancing and GM would be doomed. Your need to be right even outweighs the needs of the company...incredible.

It would seem for someone like Oldsmoboi or myself to promote and defend GM on a Fan Site would be better for dealer business and sales than for actual GM dealer employees to tear GM apart while simultaneously insulting existing GM's buyers & owners (taking digs at us because we're all blind, stupid, and fanatical for preferring anything GM-built right now 'or' over the past twenty years) at every possible chance.

Which really directly impacts and possibly sacrifices GM's immediate future to make their point? For what gain?

This board is not GM... This board is for GM buyers, owners, fans, and those interested in GM itself. You would think this place could be used to actually make sales contacts instead of running potential buyers, or in Oldsmoboi & my case... repeat-buyers, off from considering GM.

CARBIZ may not make the most convincing argument at every post, but I'd feel much more comfortable buying a GM vehicle after talking to him. He at least believes in the product.

EVOK and AH-HA were a different case entirely, since they are industry analysts. Their critical perspectives were always welcomed by several here including myself (which their participation here predated both of you quite a bit.) Even then, they didn't come off any where near as bias towards any manufacturer or brand as Enzl is to his Toyota franchise and you to your former BMW employer.

I know this is a harsh post, and I'm sorry about it to a degree, but this is my impression. Just being honest...

[Drew Dowdell]

Speaking of which, I just priced out der neue CTS in Germany. Configured the way I want it is 42,000 euro... quite doable.

But the diesel doesn't appear to be available...... STILL.

oh... sorry.

This is a GM site, I suppose I should price out a 3-series instead.

[Satty]

Speaking of which, I just priced out der neue CTS in Germany. Configured the way I want it is 42,000 euro... quite doable.

Doesn't that translate to like $65k USD? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy one here and take it over with you?

[Drew Dowdell]

Doesn't that translate to like $65k USD? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy one here and take it over with you?

I want the diesel and I have money in euros already.

[Satty]

I want the diesel and I have money in euros already.

Ahhh, it really is too bad GM doesn't want to give the US diesels now.

[ZL-1]

The irony is that you and Enzl both work for GM dealer groups and are determined more than any other member to convince all the "stupid/fanatical/blind" GM fan members on C&G that every other manufacturer is better than GM - from product, marketing, technology, engineering, etc... even Hyundai and Kia.

Sorry to intrude into your discussion guys, but I don't think enzl and The O.C. have any disgust for GM and its products. They do feel the difficulties of pushing GM prodcuts against what the competition has to offer, I am glad thay are vocal about it, and I hope thay voice their concerns to GM people as well.

@ Oldmoboi - IIRC the diesel CTS will arrive during 2009.

Edited June 7, 2008 by ZL-1

[enzl]

I don't know if that's such an idiotic comment or not O.C...

Oldsmoboi buys new Cadillacs and I buy new Buicks. You're constantly addressing GM new car buyers all the time here on C&G. The irony is that you and Enzl both work for GM dealer groups and are determined more than any other member to convince all the "stupid/fanatical/blind" GM fan members on C&G that every other manufacturer is better than GM - from product, marketing, technology, engineering, etc... even Hyundai and Kia.

The Incessant degrading from you two about GM products could convince just about any half-interested GM shopper or GM owner to reconsider and shop a foreign manufacturer. Afterall, the Internet is the #1 source for researching a car purchase.

If I were to take everything you two say at face value, I'd never walk into a Cadillac or Chevrolet dealership, let alone the dealerships you two actually work for. This very issue makes me wonder about one of Enzl's previous points in the other topic:

It would seem for someone like Oldsmoboi or myself to promote and defend GM on a Fan Site would be better for dealer business and sales than for actual GM dealer employees to tear GM apart while simultaneously insulting existing GM's buyers & owners (taking digs at us because we're all blind, stupid, and fanatical for preferring anything GM-built right now 'or' over the past twenty years) at every possible chance.

Which really directly impacts and possibly sacrifices GM's immediate future to make their point? For what gain?

This board is not GM... This board is for GM buyers, owners, fans, and those interested in GM itself. You would think this place could be used to actually make sales contacts instead of running potential buyers, or in Oldsmoboi & my case... repeat-buyers, off from considering GM.

CARBIZ may not make the most convincing argument at every post, but I'd feel much more comfortable buying a GM vehicle after talking to him. He at least believes in the product.

EVOK and AH-HA were a different case entirely, since they are industry analysts. Their critical perspectives were always welcomed by several here including myself (which their participation here predated both of you quite a bit.) Even then, they didn't come off any where near as bias towards any manufacturer or brand as Enzl is to his Toyota franchise and you to your former BMW employer.

I know this is a harsh post, and I'm sorry about it to a degree, but this is my impression. Just being honest...

Constructive criticism & valid opinions should be welcome, regardless of who we are or what we do. Again, I'm not going to bust out my CV---so I'll leave you with this nugget:

OC is right. I'm right. Our prognostications & warnings about what was really going on & what might happen came true, no?

And the marketplace is merely reflecting that fact.

GM has a PR department & a marketing department, last I heard. Let them worry about the stuff you're carping about.

I find it interesting that GM doesn't have a presence on this site, at all.

I feel I've been positive about what one can be positive about...I've started posts, many positive. I've contradicted people only when they were really factually inaccurate or incredibly offensive (I'd say wishing physical harm on someone because of their purchase decision qualifies.)

If you need me to be the boogeyman, so be it.

[enzl]

Sorry to intrude into your discussion guys, but I don't think enzl and The O.C. have any disgust for GM and its products. They do feel the difficulties of pushing GM prodcuts against what the competition has to offer, I am glad thay are vocal about it, and I hope thay voice their concerns to GM people as well.

@ Oldmoboi - IIRC the diesel CTS will arrive during 2009.

Thank you.

I know I have discussed concerns, I can't speak for OC. The problem is that GM is top-down, rather than bottom-up for info that sticks. Common oldschool biz 101.

[Intrepidation]

Sorry to intrude into your discussion guys, but I don't think enzl and The O.C. have any disgust for GM and its products. They do feel the difficulties of pushing GM prodcuts against what the competition has to offer, I am glad thay are vocal about it, and I hope thay voice their concerns to GM people as well.

@ Oldmoboi - IIRC the diesel CTS will arrive during 2009.

Well said, I enjoy their postings and their different perspectives.

[EMan]

I really like the new 2008 STS more than the 2008 CTS. Yes many disagree but the styling and lines on the STS are more me. I would never get a V8 in an STS a Diamond White V6 RWD with Luxury Performance Package and Sport Package with Nav for me please. The car is bigger inside and out than a CTS and that never hurts I am not a small guy after all. Tell your buddy I wish him the best of luck with it.

You are not alone, I agree I love the lines and styling of the STS over the CTS. I even like the interior, simple and elegant.

[The O.C.]

I don't know if that's such an idiotic comment or not O.C...

Oldsmoboi buys new Cadillacs and I buy new Buicks. You're constantly addressing GM new car buyers all the time here on C&G. The irony is that you and Enzl both work for GM dealer groups and are determined more than any other member to convince all the "stupid/fanatical/blind" GM fan members on C&G that every other manufacturer is better than GM - from product, marketing, technology, engineering, etc... even Hyundai and Kia.

The Incessant degrading from you two about GM products could convince just about any half-interested GM shopper or GM owner to reconsider and shop a foreign manufacturer. Afterall, the Internet is the #1 source for researching a car purchase.

If I were to take everything you two say at face value, I'd never walk into a Cadillac or Chevrolet dealership, let alone the dealerships you two actually work for. This very issue makes me wonder about one of Enzl's previous points in the other topic:

It would seem for someone like Oldsmoboi or myself to promote and defend GM on a Fan Site would be better for dealer business and sales than for actual GM dealer employees to tear GM apart while simultaneously insulting existing GM's buyers & owners (taking digs at us because we're all blind, stupid, and fanatical for preferring anything GM-built right now 'or' over the past twenty years) at every possible chance.

Which really directly impacts and possibly sacrifices GM's immediate future to make their point? For what gain?

This board is not GM... This board is for GM buyers, owners, fans, and those interested in GM itself. You would think this place could be used to actually make sales contacts instead of running potential buyers, or in Oldsmoboi & my case... repeat-buyers, off from considering GM.

CARBIZ may not make the most convincing argument at every post, but I'd feel much more comfortable buying a GM vehicle after talking to him. He at least believes in the product.

EVOK and AH-HA were a different case entirely, since they are industry analysts. Their critical perspectives were always welcomed by several here including myself (which their participation here predated both of you quite a bit.) Even then, they didn't come off any where near as bias towards any manufacturer or brand as Enzl is to his Toyota franchise and you to your former BMW employer.

I know this is a harsh post, and I'm sorry about it to a degree, but this is my impression. Just being honest...

Unfortunately your post is pretty much all pointless to me. Harsh? Sorry. Here's why.......

Before this job, I've only spent a short time at the BMW store. Before that, my whole CAREER was based around the industry. (Don't forget I also have 11 years on my GM pension.) My whole career, prior to now, has been at different levels, to analyze and be informed about the market. My favorable opinion of BMW doesn't come from working at a dealership for 6 months....it comes from my personal and enthusiastic opinions of the company and their products.

I'm not trying to sell a car to anyone on this site.....so I really don't care WHAT any of you think about my opinions.....in that regard.

I'm talented enough to be able to separate my internal opinions about my product from my actual sales approach with a customer. THAT's what a talented salesperson is able to do. Otherwise, there's plenty of pre-owned (non-GM) cars and trucks on the used-car lot that I would have a hard time pushing.

And none of your post changes the brutal fact that GM is a sinking ship.....with a management team that refuses to accept the realities of the market....and seemingly simply don't have, or never did have, the foresight, knowledge, or intelligence to effectively compete in today's market.

For a company of this size.....and of this historical importance....it's PATHETIC the levels of incompetence in the VAST majority of GM products compared to their competition. It's PATHETIC that this company is still operating under a "good-ole-boys", "cover-my-ass" culture that fell out of favor 30 years ago. It's PATHETIC that this company STILL operates with too many dealers, too many brands, and too many models. And, frankly, it's PATHETIC that so many people are so blind to all of this.

OK...Now I'm sorry for my "harsh" post. But one harsh post deserves another.....

Dammit.....I'm SICK AND TIRED of the fact that it was Toyota that came up with the Prius and marketed it so successfully. I'm SICK AND TIRED of the fact that it's the Camry and Accord that are the two best-selling midsize sedans (and there are good reasons they are.) I'm SICK AND TIRED that I still have to "spin" away the reason why GM's fullsize SUVs (Escalade in my case) don't have power fold third row seats like everyone else in the market.

I could go on-and-on....but I know no one on here would read it.

OH....and btw....I'm not trying to "convince" any GM fans or C&G members on here of anything. I thought this was a forum to offer up one's honest opinions for open, (sometimes heated) discussion. That's all I've ever done.

If someone wants me to leave C&G because I'm opinionated, don't drink GM kool-aid, and offer opinions that spark controversy, well then ask me to leave. Otherwise, if you don't like to subject yourself to my posts, comments, opinions, or insights, then you don't have to read my posts....and you CERTAINLY don't have to respond to them.

You won't break MY heart.

[The O.C.]

Well said, I enjoy their postings and their different perspectives.

....and I apologize for my harsh response to Ven....it's nothing personal.

But dammit, if we didn't care, we wouldn't get this vocal. Guys like Enzl and I wouldn't spend the time we do on here. It's not like we don't have other things to do....

<Chris takes a deep breath>

[The O.C.]

One more thing for you guys to know about me.......

C&G is the ONLY blog/car site that I go to.....at all.....or that I've EVER gone to.

I'm a huge BMW fan, yes. But I don't go post on BMW sites. Yes, I say good things about Honda and sometimes (gasp) Toyota on here.......but I don't go post on Honda or Toyota sites......same with Audi.....etc, etc.

It's not like I'm "bashing" GM on some random Toyota/Honda/BMW/Audi/Ford/Chrysler blog sites......

(I think you get my drift.....for whatever it's worth.)

[Drew Dowdell]

@ Oldmoboi - IIRC the diesel CTS will arrive during 2009.

Model year or calendar year? Just curious....

[z71stampede]

You really can't judge the STS until you've driven it--and I suspect many of these folks posting on here have not. While I initially much preferred the CTS over the STS from both an appearance and interior perspective--I recently spent several days (and a couple thousand miles) with a Thunder Grey 08 STS V-8. This was a turning point for me--what a fantastic car. It drove like no other Cadillac I've ever driven, and in most cases was easier to just get in and go than it's German rivals, and even its Japanese contenders. The interstate was effortless, the mountain twisties were surprising when the transmission was in "Sport", around town steering was a little light but easily adapted to and visibility was excellent. The powertrain was always where I wanted it to be--and surprised both a 330 and a 528 by showing tail lights to both of them through a particularly lonely stretch of highway 12. No muss, no fuss, almost effortless. That Northstar is a fantastic engine--and I will be very sad to see it go. Over the course of a week, with highway/city combined traffic and the joust with the Germans, I averaged 26.8 MPG. The interior was nice to be in and look at--everything was where I needed it to be. Buttons? You don't use them but once--then you're done--dual zone climate control for front--sound system controls on the steering wheel. Speaking of sound system--the 5.1 surround with Centerpoint is one of the best I've ever heard. Levinson included. My home 7.1 doesn't sound as great. I could sit in that car for hours just to listen to it. Overall--please don't make a judgement on the STS until you've driven it--and better yet lived with its competitors. I still lust over the CTS--but the STS in it's current form with the new nose--is a worthy competitor for any car in it's class. I can't wait to see the car that replaces it. Cadillac ROCKS.

[gm4life]

I think Z71 made a few good points. I haven't drive the 2008+ STS but have driven one 2006 STS V8 and loved it. I have driven a few other Northstar powered cars and loved them all. I should drive one with the new 3.6 DI V6 but I wouldn't need a V8 on an STS nor would I want it.

[CSpec]

The STS has always been a disappointment--the styling was a compromise at best, having been changed at the last minute and has some problematic areas for sure. The interior space and trunk are strangely small, and the interior was never quite what it could be. It just never quite equaled its German rivals in the categories that buyers in this segment care about.

[The O.C.]

The STS has always been a disappointment--the styling was a compromise at best, having been changed at the last minute and has some problematic areas for sure. The interior space and trunk are strangely small, and the interior was never quite what it could be. It just never quite equaled its German rivals in the categories that buyers in this segment care about.

Agreed TOTALLY.

Other than the STS being a bit soft, there's not much wrong with the way it drives.

It's just the lackluster interior and bland/boring styling (compared to CTS.)

[The O.C.]

Agreed TOTALLY.

Other than the STS being a bit soft, there's not much wrong with the way it drives.

It's just the lackluster interior and bland/boring styling (compared to CTS.)

Seems generally speaking.....people either gravitate towards the CTS......or they are old-fogeys attracted to DTS. STS seems kinda lost in the brand....

[Drew Dowdell]

Uh.... O.C.

you're responding to yourself again...

[The O.C.]

Uh.... O.C.

you're responding to yourself again...

LOL....I was adding a comment to my comment......

[Paolino]

LOL....I was adding a comment to my comment......

Ummm... click "edit"?

[regfootball]

Agreed TOTALLY.

Other than the STS being a bit soft, there's not much wrong with the way it drives.

It's just the lackluster interior and bland/boring styling (compared to CTS.)

the 08 exterior changes really give it more road presence, too bad the interior remains so bland.