I am gonna blow... This is one of hell'uva a RANT!

[Satty]

The person who looked at a potato and thought "I shall mash this" deserved a monument, or at least some oral sex.

[Guest aatbloke]

you are not getting what i am saying. having the choice is valid. its the attitude of people, the arrogance, not even considering to give businesses of their own country a chance, especially considering they are probably making like bandits doing something that has till now not been been subject to the same level of consumer scrutiny, choice, and snobbishness.

everyone here has a car and it creates a great marketplace that outisde countries can come in and set up shop and suck the money out. that's great. Cars are a very visible industry. There's a lot of other industries in this country that this could happen to but it hasn't yet because their industries are not about manufacturing where it is easy for the outsiders to use their inherent advantages to exploit our money flow.

I can't wait for the day when for example, some high level marketing manager for a healthcare company has to stress out because half of what their company does is being farmed out to say, India, and the entire management team gets to pack their box and go home....because the customers decided for some reason the brochures were prettier from the other company. Even if it costs more.

Or how bout a whole entire senior management for one of the nations top banks, lets say our people decided to do all their loans through first bank of Mexico. Now these are people that are adept at golden parachutes and such so they may not get screwed as they should, but my point is cars are an industry everyone is this country seems ok to dump on in the name of defending their choice but if other more lucrative jobs were getting dumped due to the same phenomenon, the uproar and bailouts would be off the charts.......

I don't think you understand "freedom of choice". That comes regardless of accountability. For example, I'm a huge WRC fan, and was during my time in the United States. I wanted to own a car engineered by a company known for its rallying prowess, so during my time there I drove Mitsubishis as my main car. I didn't want to buy an enormous car and most of the cars offered by American marques were too large for my palate. But that was my freedom of choice.

Furthermore, one of those Mitsubishis was built in the United States. Now, I'm sure I can hear the calls of "all the profits go to Japan" from those who don't understand the mechanics of a P&L account. Foreign companies have US subsidiaries to manufacture vehicles in exactly the same way as American companies do the same in other countries around the world. Profit for a kick-off does not equal cash, there are only a handful of legal profit extraction methods available, and the probability of extracting any sizeable amount of profit is usually remote.

In the UK, British-built Nissans have become extraordinarily popular since Nissan set up their UK manufacturing subsidiary in Sunderland in 1986. It employs thousands of people, exports almost 80% of its manufacturing output which is a huge boon for the local economy not to mention the country's balance of payments, and has become a source of great pride for workers in the north east of England. Do I, or should I, feel compelled to buy any British-made product? Absolutely not. I pay my way in this country and that's enough to afford me to choose anything I like from anywhere.

American manufacturers are facing tough times especially with smaller domestic cars which don't yield a great deal of unit profit and who are dealing with higher costs because of high union demands. Either the American consumer has to be prepared to pay more for that domestic product, or in order to maximise profit, the product is built using cheaper and poorer quality materials, or farmed out for production in a country with a cheaper labour market.

Edited June 6, 2008 by aatbloke

[79VetteZ06]

Furthermore, one of those Mitsubishis was built in the United States. Now, I'm sure I can hear the calls of "all the profits go to Japan" from those who don't understand the mechanics of a P&L account. Foreign companies have US subsidiaries to manufacture vehicles in exactly the same way as American companies do the same in other countries around the world. Profit for a kick-off does not equal cash, there are only a handful of legal profit extraction methods available, and the probability of extracting any sizeable amount of profit is usually remote.

What some people do not realize is that the profits from corporate America represents roughly 4.9% of GDP and that is entire American business, including ones who make profits from other countries, Hallirburton included. While employment roughly makes more than half of the GDP. Losing jobs is more significant and direct impact than losing some of that 4-5% profit to "other country". And you can always make sure to "invest" in stocks of those other countries' investing in their monies here, and bring their money back in the country via dividends.

People should be more antagonistic to Wal-Marts, Dells, and other companies who ship their jobs out rather than Toy, or Hondas. Old hardcore American economy was stronger because it involved a comprehensive service sector. With the new so-called technology advancements; the need and push for replacement of a product by corporations to make more profits rather than fixing a broken product destroyed service sector to create a majority of production jobs. However the brunt was faced when corp. pushed the production jobs out too for making even more profits. It has turned into a vicious cycle, and thoughtful, not emotional approach from people will help saving this country.

It is Okay to vent emotions in a friendly places like blogs, but when emotions subside, thoughts should rule.

[Guest aatbloke]

What some people do not realize is that the profits from corporate America represents roughly 4.9% of GDP and that is entire American business, including ones who make profits from other countries, Hallirburton included. While employment roughly makes more than half of the GDP. Losing jobs is more significant and direct impact than losing some of that 4-5% profit to "other country". And you can always make sure to "invest" in stocks of those other countries' investing in their monies here, and bring their money back in the country via dividends.

Exactly - and the host country benefits from payroll and corporation taxes paid prior to the extraction of any dividend in the first place. Management charges are a more effective method of profit extraction, although they're often scrutinised by taxing authorities and not always entirely eligible for tax relief. The host country as you say is likely to be far more impacted by lost jobs, plus the loss of payroll taxes arising therefrom.

[CARBIZ]

Two points:

1. Patent ownership and who controls the technology.

2. National Security.

Americans can gloat about 'winning' WWII, but there is only one reason they 'won' that war: industrial output. They could build more tanks, planes and ships than either of the Axis powers could shoot up. Simple.

Won't it be great if President Obama has to go hat in hand to China, India, or Japan to beg for permission to secure production of foreign transplants here to build tanks. Or better yet, have them imported from China, India or Japan. England may be happy with that; after all, her status as a superpower was stamped out by the Nazis, but I find myself somewhat more concerned about which flags are planted on Mars, and the way things are going........well, let's just say I wouldn't place my bets on any Western powers planting their flag there.

Just wondering, is all................

[enzl]

Two points:

1. Patent ownership and who controls the technology.

2. National Security.

Americans can gloat about 'winning' WWII, but there is only one reason they 'won' that war: industrial output. They could build more tanks, planes and ships than either of the Axis powers could shoot up. Simple.

Won't it be great if President Obama has to go hat in hand to China, India, or Japan to beg for permission to secure production of foreign transplants here to build tanks. Or better yet, have them imported from China, India or Japan. England may be happy with that; after all, her status as a superpower was stamped out by the Nazis, but I find myself somewhat more concerned about which flags are planted on Mars, and the way things are going........well, let's just say I wouldn't place my bets on any Western powers planting their flag there.

Just wondering, is all................

IIRC, US Law prevents foreign ownership of military manufacturers....that's how AM General became an independent co. when Renault bought AMC. And since I don't think they'll be pressing Cobalts into military service, I'm not sure if that's something to worry about.

If WWII is the blueprint for current Western military planning, well, than the Gov't is in worse shape than all of us feared...certain manufacturing will always be done here. Rewards for tech development is way too lucrative for it to stop. The 'fears' you're trying to explain are simply not entirely valid...and, quite frankly, the rise from 3rd World status of China or India may increase the odds of peace in our time, as it makes the stakes in a conflict higher for those who are now leaping into 20th Century living standards.

The competition for resources is a concern for all, but there's a strong social justice POV that would take the view that our consumptive Western societies are impinging upon the 3rd World's human rights, rather than their growth risking our way of life. Just an alternate POV rather than a statement of politics, it does bear consideration as we deign to try and control the destiny of 4++Billion human beings seeking a way of life we treasure and export daily.

[CARBIZ]

IIRC, US Law prevents foreign ownership of military manufacturers....that's how AM General became an independent co. when Renault bought AMC. And since I don't think they'll be pressing Cobalts into military service, I'm not sure if that's something to worry about.

If WWII is the blueprint for current Western military planning, well, than the Gov't is in worse shape than all of us feared...certain manufacturing will always be done here. Rewards for tech development is way too lucrative for it to stop. The 'fears' you're trying to explain are simply not entirely valid...and, quite frankly, the rise from 3rd World status of China or India may increase the odds of peace in our time, as it makes the stakes in a conflict higher for those who are now leaping into 20th Century living standards.The competition for resources is a concern for all, but there's a strong social justice POV that would take the view that our consumptive Western societies are impinging upon the 3rd World's human rights, rather than their growth risking our way of life. Just an alternate POV rather than a statement of politics, it does bear consideration as we deign to try and control the destiny of 4++Billion human beings seeking a way of life we treasure and export daily.

Do you have any concept of the absolute immensity of the populations in those two countries? With their birth rates, they are never EVER going to get a handle on their labor crisis (oversupply.) Look at Mexico: NAFTA was supposed to raise them up to our level of standards, but still the babies keep on popping out. Why are GM dealerships all over Toronto adding 'Spanish Teams' to their show room? In Canada! The Middle Class in Mexico does not want to live in Mexico. Yet Mexico's population is 1/10 of India's.

I would wish you are right, but unless their is a paradigm shift in the CULTURAL attitudes in India in particular, and also in China, those two countries simply will not be able to catch up to their own sprialing birth rate. The Tower of Babel Syndrome.

Have you read up on what happened when Washington comandeered Detroit's production capacity? What if all that production capacity was foreign-owned. Impossible? Try buying an American built TV. Better yet, trying buying a TV built by an American company, period.

Where do you think the innovations and technical upgrades come from? Government labs? Not likely. If Ford, GM and Chrysler go down (not totally unlikely, given our penchant for cultural suicide these days), how would a future Pentagon handle the next big war? If Ford gets 'bought out' by, say, Nissan (I am just making this up), all it's patents and proprietary systems then belong to Nissan.

[ZL-1]

The person who looked at a potato and thought "I shall mash this" deserved a monument, or at least some oral sex.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[regfootball]

Do you have any concept of the absolute immensity of the populations in those two countries? With their birth rates, they are never EVER going to get a handle on their labor crisis (oversupply.) Look at Mexico: NAFTA was supposed to raise them up to our level of standards, but still the babies keep on popping out. Why are GM dealerships all over Toronto adding 'Spanish Teams' to their show room? In Canada! The Middle Class in Mexico does not want to live in Mexico. Yet Mexico's population is 1/10 of India's.

I would wish you are right, but unless their is a paradigm shift in the CULTURAL attitudes in India in particular, and also in China, those two countries simply will not be able to catch up to their own sprialing birth rate. The Tower of Babel Syndrome.

Have you read up on what happened when Washington comandeered Detroit's production capacity? What if all that production capacity was foreign-owned. Impossible? Try buying an American built TV. Better yet, trying buying a TV built by an American company, period.

Where do you think the innovations and technical upgrades come from? Government labs? Not likely. If Ford, GM and Chrysler go down (not totally unlikely, given our penchant for cultural suicide these days), how would a future Pentagon handle the next big war? If Ford gets 'bought out' by, say, Nissan (I am just making this up), all it's patents and proprietary systems then belong to Nissan.

again, there is just a certain group of people in this country that do not care. As long as they can get what they want and feed their mojo. If war time did break out, they'd want to grab mochas and sit in a conference room and 'brainstorm' their solutions for success in the 'global war arena'.

[enzl]

Do you have any concept of the absolute immensity of the populations in those two countries? With their birth rates, they are never EVER going to get a handle on their labor crisis (oversupply.) Look at Mexico: NAFTA was supposed to raise them up to our level of standards, but still the babies keep on popping out. Why are GM dealerships all over Toronto adding 'Spanish Teams' to their show room? In Canada! The Middle Class in Mexico does not want to live in Mexico. Yet Mexico's population is 1/10 of India's.

I would wish you are right, but unless their is a paradigm shift in the CULTURAL attitudes in India in particular, and also in China, those two countries simply will not be able to catch up to their own sprialing birth rate. The Tower of Babel Syndrome.

Have you read up on what happened when Washington comandeered Detroit's production capacity? What if all that production capacity was foreign-owned. Impossible? Try buying an American built TV. Better yet, trying buying a TV built by an American company, period.

Where do you think the innovations and technical upgrades come from? Government labs? Not likely. If Ford, GM and Chrysler go down (not totally unlikely, given our penchant for cultural suicide these days), how would a future Pentagon handle the next big war? If Ford gets 'bought out' by, say, Nissan (I am just making this up), all it's patents and proprietary systems then belong to Nissan.

If we're dependant upon the Big 2.8 for new tech, we're screwed, regardless.

My guess is that tech co.'s like Apple or some other Silicon Valley or Pharma or somebody else will play a large role in the future.

The Automobile isn't a particularly sophisticated device, when compared to bio-engineered substances or robotics or A.I., so I'm not sure that we'll be calling Toyota when the next war breaks out. That being said, we can do nothing about population growth in other countries, nor do we in the West have the moral high ground to demand others not to live a better, more consumptive existence--in fact, we market that way of life via all Big Corporations--Including the Auto Industry.

There's an interesting article in CAR (UK) regarding the Tata Nano & how it, not gas-guzzlers, is an environmental threat by placed cars in the hands of millions who can't have one now.

History teaches that nothing is more constant than change. If the Earth is all humans have, there's going to be a limit as to how we can live here together--or somebody will invent things to avoid catastrophe--who knows?

I think this is a philisophical issue as much as a practical one. I guess we'll see how it goes. I'm actually optimistic that humans can and will figure it out....just don't let GM execs get involved

And Reg, there's many people in this country that DO care---and they're working on the issues as we speak, I'm sure. And they say I'm the negative one.

Edited June 6, 2008 by enzl

[regfootball]

If we're dependant upon the Big 2.8 for new tech, we're screwed, regardless.

My guess is that tech co.'s like Apple or some other Silicon Valley or Pharma or somebody else will play a large role in the future.

The Automobile isn't a particularly sophisticated device, when compared to bio-engineered substances or robotics or A.I., so I'm not sure that we'll be calling Toyota when the next war breaks out. That being said, we can do nothing about population growth in other countries, nor do we in the West have the moral high ground to demand others not to live a better, more consumptive existence--in fact, we market that way of life via all Big Corporations--Including the Auto Industry.

There's an interesting article in CAR (UK) regarding the Tata Nano & how it, not gas-guzzlers, is an environmental threat by placed cars in the hands of millions who can't have one now.

History teaches that nothing is more constant than change. If the Earth is all humans have, there's going to be a limit as to how we can live here together--or somebody will invent things to avoid catastrophe--who knows?

I think this is a philisophical issue as much as a practical one. I guess we'll see how it goes. I'm actually optimistic that humans can and will figure it out....just don't let GM execs get involved

And Reg, there's many people in this country that DO care---and they're working on the issues as we speak, I'm sure. And they say I'm the negative one.

i'm sure they are only working on it if they compensated obscenely for it and it puts more notches on their resume.

[Cory Wolfe]

What a waste. Thread like this certainly doesn't make me miss being around often.

Edited June 8, 2008 by blackviper8891

[Camino LS6]

You know, I just read this entire thread and more than once, I considered locking it.

But.

Though it began badly and veered into near-obscene territory a few times, that has been balanced by the more thoughtful posts.

So, I'll be leaving it open.

But I have to caution everyone that the "colorful" language is getting a bit out of control around here lately, and it would be good to tone that down several notches.

It reflects badly on all of us.

[CARBIZ]

If we're dependant upon the Big 2.8 for new tech, we're screwed, regardless.

My guess is that tech co.'s like Apple or some other Silicon Valley or Pharma or somebody else will play a large role in the future.

The Automobile isn't a particularly sophisticated device, when compared to bio-engineered substances or robotics or A.I., so I'm not sure that we'll be calling Toyota when the next war breaks out. That being said, we can do nothing about population growth in other countries, nor do we in the West have the moral high ground to demand others not to live a better, more consumptive existence--in fact, we market that way of life via all Big Corporations--Including the Auto Industry.

There's an interesting article in CAR (UK) regarding the Tata Nano & how it, not gas-guzzlers, is an environmental threat by placed cars in the hands of millions who can't have one now.

History teaches that nothing is more constant than change. If the Earth is all humans have, there's going to be a limit as to how we can live here together--or somebody will invent things to avoid catastrophe--who knows?

I think this is a philisophical issue as much as a practical one. I guess we'll see how it goes. I'm actually optimistic that humans can and will figure it out....just don't let GM execs get involved

And Reg, there's many people in this country that DO care---and they're working on the issues as we speak, I'm sure. And they say I'm the negative one.

You're missing the point: either there will be NO factories left in North America to build the tanks/ships and guns that will be needed to fight the next Big One, or what is left will be foreign owned/controlled. Even if some capacity is left in the U.S., it the 'ramp up' period from, say, dishwashers to guns is long enough; but if Washington has to haggle/badger foreign companies/powers first to get permission to convert to wartime production - well, let's just say the barbarians will be at the gate while Congress is debating the merits.

PS. Where is the Pentagon getting their flat screens for the F-15? Zenith was the last supplier and they're gone.

[ocnblu]

Well, maybe these obscene fuel prices will encourage more local manufacturing.

[Camino LS6]

You're missing the point: either there will be NO factories left in North America to build the tanks/ships and guns that will be needed to fight the next Big One, or what is left will be foreign owned/controlled. Even if some capacity is left in the U.S., it the 'ramp up' period from, say, dishwashers to guns is long enough; but if Washington has to haggle/badger foreign companies/powers first to get permission to convert to wartime production - well, let's just say the barbarians will be at the gate while Congress is debating the merits.

PS. Where is the Pentagon getting their flat screens for the F-15? Zenith was the last supplier and they're gone.

I've also heard a hew and cry over other military suppliers being sold to foriegn interests. These sales were initially OK'd by our near-sighted Congress!

Morons.

It is essential that manufacturing continues to exist in a large way in this country - the current trend must be reversed. We need to be able to supply ourselves all the basics our country requires - or become subservient to foreign powers.

It really is that simple.

Unexpected shifts in the geo-political reality can, and do, happen without warning. We must have the capability of supplying our own goods.

Especially for the Military.

[regfootball]

and everyone wonders why farming is subsidized? if it weren't we'd outsource all our ag, too. then we'd be screwed.

[CARBIZ]

and everyone wonders why farming is subsidized? if it weren't we'd outsource all our ag, too. then we'd be screwed.

Yes, Japan certainly understands this. I read an article today in the National Post that Japan is actually feeding rice to livestock because they have so much stockpiled. Apparently, under a round of GAAT that they lost a few years back, the Japanese market was forced open to 'cheap' imports, so the Japanese government buys their 'quota' of imported rice, and warehouses it. Now they don't know what to do with it, so they are feeding it to livestock.

On an unrelated note, I am becoming extremely suspicous about this sudden world-wide food 'shortage.' Perhaps the powers that be are getting nervous about biofuels cutting into their profit and are now whipping up a panic on food prices.

[daves87rs]

I've also heard a hew and cry over other military suppliers being sold to foriegn interests. These sales were initially OK'd by our near-sighted Congress!

Morons.

It is essential that manufacturing continues to exist in a large way in this country - the current trend must be reversed. We need to be able to supply ourselves all the basics our country requires - or become subservient to foreign powers.

It really is that simple.

Unexpected shifts in the geo-political reality can, and do, happen without warning. We must have the capability of supplying our own goods.

Especially for the Military.

I couldn't agree more ...

I can see it now...

Where are our planes? SNAP! we let india build em'. Shoot, and we just pissed them off.

Yeah, that wouldn't go well....

[daves87rs]

Well, maybe these obscene fuel prices will encourage more local manufacturing.

[FAPTurbo]

Just dropping in to say I drove our Toyota Sienna again yesterday, and I'm still waiting for my impending death.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Just dropping in to say I drove our Toyota Sienna again yesterday, and I'm still waiting for my impending death.

:rotflmao:

[Satty]

Just dropping in to say I drove our Toyota Sienna again yesterday, and I'm still waiting for my impending death.

Glad to hear you're ok. I'm pretty sure the Prius has been smoking pot in the garage, and it may have slipped a sorority girl GHB.

[CARBIZ]

Just dropping in to say I drove our Toyota Sienna again yesterday, and I'm still waiting for my impending death.

No, you'll be fine. It's your kids future you should be worried about.

[Sixty8panther]

Driving a Sienna is a sure-fire way of preventing pregnancy.

Most chicks I know would rather get skull-F@%$ed by a

mullet head driving a Ford Fairmont wagon than ever set

foot in a minivan, Toyo-DUR or not.

(my wife, my ex, XP's G/F, SP's G/F and 95% of their girlie-friends HATE minivans)

[pow]

Just dropping in to say I drove our Toyota Sienna again yesterday, and I'm still waiting for my impending death.

Thanks for supporting our local economy. Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. is the largest employer in this town, and they've been helpful in providing the funds that our schools need.