So, to make my disgust complete

[Camino LS6]

Do you think GM will deprive me of the chance to buy a G8 ST with a manual?

A GXP version?

Somehow I get the feeling that I won't even be able to get one of these as a "going away" present before Pontiac gets the big flush.

Yeah, I'm feeling bitter and have little faith anymore.

[Camino LS6]

If it turns out the way I expect, I guess I'll buy a used automatic ST a year or two after they come out. I just can't deal with spending new car money on an auto trans. vehicle.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I hope this will cheer you up, Mr. Lutz was looking spry and very, very tan!

[Camino LS6]

I hope this will cheer you up, Mr. Lutz was looking spry and very, very tan!

I'm glad Uncle Bob is in good health, now if he only had more power.

[Camino LS6]

So, anyone want to lay odds on the question?

[BigPontiac]

Buy used G8 ST auto, buy wrecked G8 GXP manual sedan, convert.

[Camino LS6]

Buy used G8 ST auto, buy wrecked G8 GXP manual sedan, convert.

Now that's some positive thinking!

Thanks, I needed that.

[PurdueGuy]

Buy used G8 ST auto, buy wrecked G8 GXP manual sedan, convert.

exactly what I was thinking. You can pretty much always get what you want, you just can't always get it from the dealer...

[Blake Noble]

You know, Holden is selling those gently used small-blocks complete with transmission as part of the W427 project. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

You know, Holden is selling those gently used small-blocks complete with transmission as part of the W427 project. :AH-HA_wink:

[Sixty8panther]

If Pontiac is killed I just might F^%$&^# snap.

I mean like riffle & belltower kind of bad.

[Camino LS6]

If Pontiac is killed I just might F^%$&^# snap.

I mean like riffle & belltower kind of bad.

It will mean much the same for me.

[Intrepidation]

As other's have said, all you need is a little imagination Camino. Even if you you have to buy auto, with your skills you could easily swap it out for a 6-speed out of a wrecked G8 GXP. Then you can still buy a new one, and get what you want. :AH-HA_wink:

[Blake Noble]

Hmm ... the ST will have an LS3-based engine, correct? I believe a junkyard C6 would be willing to sacrifice its six-speed manual transmission for your ST, Camino. There is always that option.

Edited June 4, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

Even for me, it would be VERY hard to hack up a brand new car - I'm not sure I could stand it.

And the expense would be obscene.

No, if GM wants to sell me a new one, I think they will have to offer the manual. Otherwise, it will be a used one (which I won't feel so bad about converting).

I would give up the GXP option if it meant I could get the manual.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It will mean much the same for me.

DO NOT CHALLENGE THE GATE!

[Camino LS6]

QUESTION AUTHORITY!

[Sixty8panther]

F*#K new cars.... I'm all done.

GM can make seven door sedans for all I care.

Camino: Gas is $4/gall, so even if they do grant you your

wish you'll be buying a "skip-shift delete" kit.

To hell with new cars, appliances, nothing else.

[Camino LS6]

F*#K new cars.... I'm all done.

GM can make seven door sedans for all I care.

Camino: Gas is $4/gall, so even if they do grant you your

wish you'll be buying a "skip-shift delete" kit.

To hell with new cars, appliances, nothing else.

The skip shift issue isn't new territory for me. :AH-HA_wink:

[Blake Noble]

QUESTION AUTHORITY!

Don't forget to think for yourself. :AH-HA_wink:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself."

Edited June 4, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[z28luvr01]

Here's how I see it, not because I want this to happen, but because this is how a company with a defeatist attitude would operate:

We get the G8 GXP and G8 ST as promised. They'll have a short model run and be killed "due to higher gas prices and changes in customer buying tastes"

I dont recall a G8 ST GXP being announced, so they don't have to kill it.

The G8 dies when the Commodore runs its course at Holden

I wish I could be more positive, but the powers that be believe that putting the twin kidney grille on rolling sardine cans is the way to save Pontiac.

What I'd like to see happen:

Holden takes the ball (yet again) and squeezes some more mileage out of the Commodore range by introducing newer, more economical engine choices (turbo DI 4cyls, hybrids, etc)

Demand for the G8 in the US remains relatively high despite the climate of the market, and GM decides to offer the full range of engine and tranny options here, GXP and fuel-misers included

The ST proves poular with former compact truck buyers, and GM considers exploting this and building a family of unibody pickups off Zeta

Camino gets his G8 ST GXP. I get my base engine, manual version to tote my bikesa around

To cope with demand, GM takes the mothalls out of Oshawa and builds GMNA-destined Zetas there. In exchange, Holden is allowed to build the Camaro and said unibody pickups in Elizabeth.

Sales of Zeta vehicles as a whole do well enough for GM to justify the development of a more lightweight successor.

[Camino LS6]

Don't forget to think for yourself. :AH-HA_wink:

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself."

Words to live by.

[Blake Noble]

Words to live by.

Indeed.

[Intrepidation]

F*#K new cars.... I'm all done.

GM can make seven door sedans for all I care.

Camino: Gas is $4/gall, so even if they do grant you your

wish you'll be buying a "skip-shift delete" kit.

To hell with new cars, appliances, nothing else.

Yes, because Chargers Magnums, 300C's (especially midgrade and up), Camaros, G8's, Jags, Hardtop Mercedes, the list could go on, are all souless appliances that are by this logic, no better than a Camry....which is blasphemy to even think.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Camino LS6]

Here's how I see it, not because I want this to happen, but because this is how a company with a defeatist attitude would operate:

We get the G8 GXP and G8 ST as promised. They'll have a short model run and be killed "due to higher gas prices and changes in customer buying tastes"

I dont recall a G8 ST GXP being announced, so they don't have to kill it.

The G8 dies when the Commodore runs its course at Holden

I wish I could be more positive, but the powers that be believe that putting the twin kidney grille on rolling sardine cans is the way to save Pontiac.

What I'd like to see happen:

Holden takes the ball (yet again) and squeezes some more mileage out of the Commodore range by introducing newer, more economical engine choices (turbo DI 4cyls, hybrids, etc)

Demand for the G8 in the US remains relatively high despite the climate of the market, and GM decides to offer the full range of engine and tranny options here, GXP and fuel-misers included

The ST proves poular with former compact truck buyers, and GM considers exploting this and building a family of unibody pickups off Zeta

Camino gets his G8 ST GXP. I get my base engine, manual version to tote my bikesa around

To cope with demand, GM takes the mothalls out of Oshawa and builds GMNA-destined Zetas there. In exchange, Holden is allowed to build the Camaro and said unibody pickups in Elizabeth.

Sales of Zeta vehicles as a whole do well enough for GM to justify the development of a more lightweight successor.

I like your recipe.

No official word on either a manual or the GXP package for the ST yet.

Hell, the bums forgot that they were supposed to announce the ST's real name in May!

Still nothing on that.

[Camino LS6]

When you get right down to it, I don't need to buy a new car ever.

So what I'm willing to buy has to meet a higher standard.

[cire]

I think my overall disgust with GM regarding the Pontiac situation is their total lack of vision for the division. GM has a division that has a historical performance image and credible resources (platforms, technology, etc.) within the corporation to create something that would be unique and special in the market (especially from a U.S. automaker), yet they continue to squander the opportunity and allow this division's true potential to remain dormant. The company needs to utilize its resources to give this once proud and exciting division the makeover it truly deserves. It appears as though GM either intends to eventually eliminate this brand completely or allow it to continue on in its pathetic role as a secondary volume outlet for twin nostriled Chevrolet clone vehicles. Either proposition is a sad and pathetic finale for a division that has so much untapped potential. I thought combining Buick/Pontiac/GMC into one dealership network would allow GM to give each of these divisions a streamlined, yet focused product portfolio that would cater to their respective niche segments of the market (Although I still think Saab/Hummer should be sold, Buick should be paired with Cadillac, and Saturn should join Pontiac/GMC). This plan seems to have been broomed as far as Pontiac is concerned.

GM seems to have wasted countless development dollars on platforms that seemingly will be underutilized. These platforms could have provided an incredible basis for giving Pontiac an awesome lineup as well as saving the company development money for Cadillac by giving its top tier luxury division an affordable platform mate division. If the platforms are too heavy to assist GM in meeting CAFE requirements, then invest a little time and effort in upgrading/improving/lightening them. The platforms provide a solid basis for doing this and the work has to be done for Cadillac anyway if GM intends for their top tier luxury division to continue to compete with the best European/Asian luxury brands. Why not spread out the development dollars and provide slightly decontented versions of these platforms to underpin Pontiac products? The Pontiac products could use smaller displacement turbocharged engines, hybrids, diesels, and/or other alternative fuel technology to achieve a balance between fuel economy and peppy performance (again, these options have to be developed for all of GM's products anyway; so why not use them in RWD applications for Pontiac?). It seems like the building blocks are there to give Pontiac products that would be special and unique in the market, but GM seems to be too blind or unmotivated to take advantage of these resources.

Here's what a future product portfolio for Pontiac could be:

* Solstice: Next generation roadster and 2-seat coupe built on improved Kappa II platform. Styling would be aligned with global versions that are sold by Opel/Vauxhall/Holden/Daewoo (Saturn would sell "TwinTop" coupe/roadster versions of the next generation Corsa/Astra/Aura to substitute for the departure of the Sky). Cadillac would receive a small luxury retractable hardtop roadster as a platform mate. A small displacement turbocharged 4 cylinder could serve as the base engine and a larger displacement turbocharged 4 cylinder could be used in sportier versions. The next generation Solstice would be about 160 inches long on a 100 inch wheelbase?

* G2: Subcompact 3-door/5-door built on modified Kappa II platform. This car could be marketed as a competitor to other small specialty cars (such as Mini). Engine choices would be the same as the Solstice. Cadillac would receive a luxury subcompact product range (1-Series competitor) that would compete with similar offerings from other luxury makes (which would also make Cadillac more competitive overall in global markets where small luxury cars are established norms in the market). The G2 would be about 170 inches long on a 104 inch wheelbase?

* G4: Compact sedan/coupe/convertible/5-door built on Alpha platform. Engine choices would be the same as Solstice and G2, but tuned to achieve more power to accomodate for the size difference. Cadillac would receive a 3-Series/C-Class competitor range of products as platform mates. The G4 would be about 180 inches long on a 108 inch wheelbase?

* G6: Midsize sedan/coupe/convertible on SWB SigZeta platform. Engine choices would include a turbocharged large displacement 4 cylinder as the base engine, a normally aspirated direct injection V6 as an upgrade engine, and a turbocharged version of the V6 as the performance trim engine. Cadillac would receive a next generation CTS and related products (5-Series/E-Class competitors) on a luxury version of this platform. The G6 would be about 190 inches long on a 114 inch wheelbase?

* G8: Large flagship sedan built on LWB SigZeta platform. Engine choices would be the same as G6, but tuned to achieve more power to accomodate for the size difference. Cadillac would receive a 7-Series/S-Class competitor flagship sedan. The G8 would be about 197 inches long on a 118 inch wheelbase?

All Pontiac products would offer a two mode hybrid option with the base engine to supply buyers with an option that would give slightly more performance and significantly increased fuel efficiency. I see Saturn and Buick receiving brand specific versions of the Delta based Chevy Volt, so I don't think Pontiac or Cadillac would need this kind of product in their portfolios.

With a little vision and effort from GM, Pontiac really could have the brand appropriate product portfolio it truly deserves. I know this is just a pipe dream, but it would be great to see GM tap into the dormant potential that Pontiac could provide for the corporation.

Edited June 4, 2008 by cire

[cire]

I also forgot about the Holden connection in regards to platform sharing among the RWD platforms. In fact, the rebadged Holden connection might continue to work in the future in regards to the Kappa and Alpha platforms if the G8 sedan is any indication. The only problem I see with sharing designs between Holden and Pontiac in the future in my proposal would be the SWB/LWB SigZeta platform. If Pontiac and Holden were to share styling on the SigZeta products, Holden would need to downsize the next generation Commodore/Berlina/Calais (SWB Zeta=current Pontiac G8) and Statesman/Caprice (LWB Zeta=current Chinese Buick Park Avenue). Given the future outlook on fuel prices and efficiency concerns/regulations, it might be good that the next generation Statesman/Caprice shrinks to the size of the current G8/Commodore on the LWB SigZeta platform. Anyway, my proposal would make for a much more exciting Pontiac lineup than the rebadged "Pontiacized" Chevy clone lineup. Of course, it's easier to make these kind of proposed product portfolios when you don't have to take other factors (such as union contracts) into consideration; I'm sure the process is much more difficult when you add real world factors to the mix. Still, it would be awesome to see Pontiac stand out from the crowd with a lineup of affordable RWD products.

[Sixty8panther]

Yes, because Chargers Magnums, 300C's (especially midgrade and up), Camaros, G8's, Jags, Hardtop Mercedes, the list could go on, are all souless appliances that are by this logic, no better than a Camry....which is blasphemy to even think.

I know I know... ....CTS, Corvette/Z06/ZR1, BMw M5s etc.

That having been said however GM is shooting itself in the

foot again BIG TIME!!!! This RWD for the masses thing has

been going on since 1987. I'm disgusted with the crap we

are told is new & exciting.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Here's how I see it, not because I want this to happen, but because this is how a company with a defeatist attitude would operate:

We get the G8 GXP and G8 ST as promised. They'll have a short model run and be killed "due to higher gas prices and changes in customer buying tastes"

I dont recall a G8 ST GXP being announced, so they don't have to kill it.

The G8 dies when the Commodore runs its course at Holden

I wish I could be more positive, but the powers that be believe that putting the twin kidney grille on rolling sardine cans is the way to save Pontiac.

What I'd like to see happen:

Holden takes the ball (yet again) and squeezes some more mileage out of the Commodore range by introducing newer, more economical engine choices (turbo DI 4cyls, hybrids, etc)

Demand for the G8 in the US remains relatively high despite the climate of the market, and GM decides to offer the full range of engine and tranny options here, GXP and fuel-misers included

The ST proves poular with former compact truck buyers, and GM considers exploting this and building a family of unibody pickups off Zeta

Camino gets his G8 ST GXP. I get my base engine, manual version to tote my bikesa around

To cope with demand, GM takes the mothalls out of Oshawa and builds GMNA-destined Zetas there. In exchange, Holden is allowed to build the Camaro and said unibody pickups in Elizabeth.

Sales of Zeta vehicles as a whole do well enough for GM to justify the development of a more lightweight successor.

Nah... Europeans are too ignoarant to ever understand good business sense such as this.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think my overall disgust with GM regarding the Pontiac situation is their total lack of vision for the division. GM has a division that has a historical performance image and credible resources (platforms, technology, etc.) within the corporation to create something that would be unique and special in the market (especially from a U.S. automaker), yet they continue to squander the opportunity and allow this division's true potential to remain dormant. The company needs to utilize its resources to give this once proud and exciting division the makeover it truly deserves. It appears as though GM either intends to eventually eliminate this brand completely or allow it to continue on in its pathetic role as a secondary volume outlet for twin nostriled Chevrolet clone vehicles. Either proposition is a sad and pathetic finale for a division that has so much untapped potential. I thought combining Buick/Pontiac/GMC into one dealership network would allow GM to give each of these divisions a streamlined, yet focused product portfolio that would cater to their respective niche segments of the market (Although I still think Saab/Hummer should be sold, Buick should be paired with Cadillac, and Saturn should join Pontiac/GMC). This plan seems to have been broomed as far as Pontiac is concerned.

GM seems to have wasted countless development dollars on platforms that seemingly will be underutilized. These platforms could have provided an incredible basis for giving Pontiac an awesome lineup as well as saving the company development money for Cadillac by giving its top tier luxury division an affordable platform mate division. If the platforms are too heavy to assist GM in meeting CAFE requirements, then invest a little time and effort in upgrading/improving/lightening them. The platforms provide a solid basis for doing this and the work has to be done for Cadillac anyway if GM intends for their top tier luxury division to continue to compete with the best European/Asian luxury brands. Why not spread out the development dollars and provide slightly decontented versions of these platforms to underpin Pontiac products? The Pontiac products could use smaller displacement turbocharged engines, hybrids, diesels, and/or other alternative fuel technology to achieve a balance between fuel economy and peppy performance (again, these options have to be developed for all of GM's products anyway; so why not use them in RWD applications for Pontiac?). It seems like the building blocks are there to give Pontiac products that would be special and unique in the market, but GM seems to be too blind or unmotivated to take advantage of these resources.

Here's what a future product portfolio for Pontiac could be:

* Solstice: Next generation roadster and 2-seat coupe built on improved Kappa II platform. Styling would be aligned with global versions that are sold by Opel/Vauxhall/Holden/Daewoo (Saturn would sell "TwinTop" coupe/roadster versions of the next generation Corsa/Astra/Aura to substitute for the departure of the Sky). Cadillac would receive a small luxury retractable hardtop roadster as a platform mate. A small displacement turbocharged 4 cylinder could serve as the base engine and a larger displacement turbocharged 4 cylinder could be used in sportier versions. The next generation Solstice would be about 160 inches long on a 100 inch wheelbase?

* G2: Subcompact 3-door/5-door built on modified Kappa II platform. This car could be marketed as a competitor to other small specialty cars (such as Mini). Engine choices would be the same as the Solstice. Cadillac would receive a luxury subcompact product range (1-Series competitor) that would compete with similar offerings from other luxury makes (which would also make Cadillac more competitive overall in global markets where small luxury cars are established norms in the market). The G2 would be about 170 inches long on a 104 inch wheelbase?

* G4: Compact sedan/coupe/convertible/5-door built on Alpha platform. Engine choices would be the same as Solstice and G2, but tuned to achieve more power to accomodate for the size difference. Cadillac would receive a 3-Series/C-Class competitor range of products as platform mates. The G4 would be about 180 inches long on a 108 inch wheelbase?

* G6: Midsize sedan/coupe/convertible on SWB SigZeta platform. Engine choices would include a turbocharged large displacement 4 cylinder as the base engine, a normally aspirated direct injection V6 as an upgrade engine, and a turbocharged version of the V6 as the performance trim engine. Cadillac would receive a next generation CTS and related products (5-Series/E-Class competitors) on a luxury version of this platform. The G6 would be about 190 inches long on a 114 inch wheelbase?

* G8: Large flagship sedan built on LWB SigZeta platform. Engine choices would be the same as G6, but tuned to achieve more power to accomodate for the size difference. Cadillac would receive a 7-Series/S-Class competitor flagship sedan. The G8 would be about 197 inches long on a 118 inch wheelbase?

All Pontiac products would offer a two mode hybrid option with the base engine to supply buyers with an option that would give slightly more performance and significantly increased fuel efficiency. I see Saturn and Buick receiving brand specific versions of the Delta based Chevy Volt, so I don't think Pontiac or Cadillac would need this kind of product in their portfolios.

With a little vision and effort from GM, Pontiac really could have the brand appropriate product portfolio it truly deserves. I know this is just a pipe dream, but it would be great to see GM tap into the dormant potential that Pontiac could provide for the corporation.

Words to live by.

[Sixty8panther]

Agreed CIRE, there's no excuse for Pontiac's semi-mediocre lineup.

FOUR DOOR 2+2 KAPPA SEDAN!

I've been tooting that horn for two years now.

Wake the #@*^ up GM!