GM announces big changes to deal with higher gas prices

[The O.C.]

GM's market share slide is due to so many complex issues that I doubt better plastics on a mid-90s Lumina would have changed things.

It's not just plastics......that Lumina was a textbook case for bad design overall......interior, exterior, panel fits, and yes, interior fit-and-finish.

The difference is.....with similar mileage, that 1992 Honda will still feel and look solid in a way that the Lumina could never hope to match.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM WAS just getting to the level of making world-class, class-competitive cars but instead will now give us more decades of mediocre FWD generics and piss away money on cars that wont outsell their asian competition.

*Fixed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Sigh. I don't know why people keep trashing GM for building "mediocre FWD generics."

Because that's what people have been conditioned to think.

As I parked the vehicle in our back lot, I thought to myself how much I miss the linear look of those dashes and the two levels of the dash. Everything today is so generic: 3 round bezels with a hood over top. Boring. I remembered a '91 Lumina that I brought in a few months ago, also with a ton of mileage on it. There was nothing generic about those vehicles.

Yessir... It is this HOMOGENY that scares the $h! out of me as a car guy. With the rise of Japan Inc and Detroits immitation of their emotionless designs, CAFE, rise in fuel, electric cars, increasingly scarce OPTIONs/CHOICE for different powertrains and trnasmissions, the automotive world will not even be worth batting an eye lash at in under 15 years IMO.

So just for $h!s and giggles, I did some internet searches for the '92 Accord to see what the fuss was all about. Ah, I remember those cars. Yes, I remember seeing lots of them on the road at one time. Nothing particularly offensive about them. I like the clean styling of that generation of Accords. But what is there about that car that makes it automatically superior to the Regals and Luminas of their day? Personal taste? An affronted, disgruntled CR writer? Those 4 bangers were woefully underpowered. The 3.8 was a smooth, powerful beast and well renowned for longevity.

Truthfully, some GM models hung around too long without being updated (notably the '95-'05 Cavaliers), but when one judges most of the vehicles against their competitors OF THE DAY, GM has little to be ashamed of.

It could be argued that Honda, Toyota, Acura and others only got 'serious' about mid-size and large cars in the past few years. Look at the last generation Lexus ES for proof: a blatant rip off of the Camry. For every 3.4 intake gasket story, I can raise you a Honda electrical nightmare, so the truth is in the PERCEPTION. Just because Honda invested in luxury Simmons Beautyrest dashboard material only made from the finest AAA Saudi crude a few years before GM did, does not make it a better car than a Regal of the same era.

Agree 100% It's almost a cultural problem as opposed to a corporate or product problem. And that's why I've ALWAYS asserted that GM needs to hire TEAMS of social psychologists. GM needs to assess the CULTURE in this country to figure out how to sell to these people.

Some people get it... It's all a mind f*ck. The imports have a loyal legion of anti-domestic followers (for societal and corporate reasons) and those followers have been specifically TARGETED as a clientele because they are typically the HIGHER CLASS, MORE SUCCESSFUL, LOUDEST people. Once japan Inc got all of these people in their camp, the blue collar "american people" (who are seeing drastically reduced livlihoods anyway, thanks to the same people) that GM and Detroit catered to don't matter anymore because 1) They have no money 2) They're widely accepted to be "lesser" than the 'pop culture' crowd and thus can be openly ridiculed for their decisions and 3) because of that will CONFORM to what they're told to do. Pop culture is now controlled by the coasts and all of the people on the coasts have been anti-Detroit, anti-'blue collar hick' for years. Therefore, pop culture dictates to these 'lesser' people that driving a domestic is wrong and they start to believe it since they know (subconsciously) that 'they're lesser people'.

So you have 3 types of buyers in the market. 1) Mr 'pop culture' college educated import driver that has been specifically targeted and marketed to (By Japan Inc.) so that he will become and ambassador of the import brand. he would NEVER be caught dead in a 'rustbelt' car and as a result will inform all of his friends and everyone that he can get access to that they should not buy domestic. Unfortunately, these people often control the press, pop culture, media and corporate. 2) The 'lesser - true american' traditional buyer. these are the honest, simple people that make up the heartland and rural areas. They bought domestic either because they've never had a bad experience and are loyal or they have the mindset to support the country. One example: This buyer is like your grandmother... Probably not college educated, traditionally drove domestics. But then, the kids come in (Boomers/Gen X) and say "You should buy a Toyota because it's more reliable and you're too old to have an unreliable domestic" Likely, because of the kids increased status and "education" the grandmother will give in because she feels 'lesser' Example two: Your parent is a small town boomer that has always bought american. Yet gas prices are scaring her and she wants a smaller car. She keeps hearing on the media that Detroit sucks at life for everything and even killed a baby last night. Yet Toyota is the wave of the future with oh-so-excellent-amazing products. Your mother 'gives in' to the rhetoric and doesn't even consider domestic small cars because she was 'told not to'. 3) Enthusiasts/Traditional buyers. That's us. We buy GM, fight for GM, get pissed off at GM, get pissed off when someone talks $h! about GM, etc.

Buyers 1 & 2 are leaving GM in droves... Buyer 1 is a lost cause. GM would be better off to passionately engage his children to 1) stop the tide/family tradition of hating domestics and 2) Stop this anti-domestic void in the market from growing. To do this GM needs to hit the kids when they're starting the teenage years. When they feel they need to distance themselves from mom and dad and their habits, GM needs to focus it's marketing directly on them. MAKE the decision to buy domestic an emotional way to break away from the parents. Japan Inc. did this VERY well with Generation X. Boomer dad is tweaking on his new Corvette in the garage while son Steve is out driving his Nissan Z. Buyer 2 is abandoning GM at an alarming rate because pop culture is telling them to. This will be the real challenge. GM must change the image of the company in pop culture. how do you do that? 1) By introducing something absolutely revolutionary (THINK: Volt) 2) By a PR blitz the likes of nothing ever seen before, which probably still wouldn't erase ALL bad memories. 3) You put out good product and 'ride out the storm' while HOPING the media gives you a break. GM is using strategies 2 and 3. 3 seemed to be the best strategy and it seemd to be working. But time was ALWAYS a crucial factor and GM didn't have time 2 years ago and certainly doesn't have time now. So all they have left is 2. If the Volt fails in ANY way, I think GM will die a very fast and horrible death.

So, as always, it looks like the company has a HALF WAY decent plan that hits the "over all" mark. However, as always, it isn't a complete plan. As GM focuses on bringing out the Volt, they will prep the rest of the company for it's new 'environmental' image. this will capture buyer #2 if it is successful, which is A MAJORITY of the market. But at the same time, what will happen to buyer #3? Are we, the enthusiasts willing to accept the 'new GM'? Probably 50% of us are at best. And, with CAFE and rising prices/less jobs how much of the buyer 2 base will even be able to afford a new car, much less the coveted Volt?

Edited June 8, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If you get the impression that the CAW is taking a bullish stance on this issue, you're right. Even more surprising was the series of comments by readers after the article. Virtually all of them were completely against the CAW and their reaction to this news.

Naturally... Global warming and our 'need to stop killing the planet' are MUCH more important than the future of a few thousand people that nobody knows.

I keep reading where people say that GM should not be building a vehicle that nobody wants. It's not the vehicle with the problem, it's the flippin' price of gas that's causing this issue. When you read something like the following, one might begin to better understand what 1+1 equals:

I agree... I say, apply the Volt technology to the Silverado and see if people "really want" fullsize trucks.

But then, you'd have some hippie/greenie coming out of the trees policing you purchasing decisions and whining about some other reason why we "shouldn't drive such horrible large vehicles"

Probably something akin to GLOBAL CROWDING

And FWIW, I'm getting so tired of the term "gas guzzler" being so LIBERALLY used (pun intended)

It's a sad day when people are saying that a Ford Edge or a Chevrolet Impala are gas guzzlers.

Edited June 8, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's not just plastics......that Lumina was a textbook case for bad design overall......interior, exterior, panel fits, and yes, interior fit-and-finish.

The difference is.....with similar mileage, that 1992 Honda will still feel and look solid in a way that the Lumina could never hope to match.

I had a 1990 Lumina... 250,000 miles and everything still worked, still ran EXCELLENT and got some of the best gas mileage I've ever seen. Even rode well.

There are so many GM midsize cars STILL on the road despite their less-than-pampered existence, yet these cars have a terrible rep. It's all about psychology and the NEED to feel wanted/accepted. It is no longer accepted in our pop culture to drive a gass guzzler or a domestic. And due to deceit by the media and ignorance by the consumer, those two terms OFTEN mean the same thing. It's like our mindset hasn't progressed any since the 70s.

/// Oh, wait, this country HASN'T progressed any since the 70s. (Unless you count the paper dragons that we built and that our dear friend Osama pointed out)

[ShadowDog]

I had a 1990 Lumina... 250,000 miles and everything still worked, still ran EXCELLENT and got some of the best gas mileage I've ever seen. Even rode well.

There are so many GM midsize cars STILL on the road despite their less-than-pampered existence, yet these cars have a terrible rep. It's all about psychology and the NEED to feel wanted/accepted. It is no longer accepted in our pop culture to drive a gass guzzler or a domestic. And due to deceit by the media and ignorance by the consumer, those two terms OFTEN mean the same thing. It's like our mindset hasn't progressed any since the 70s.

/// Oh, wait, this country HASN'T progressed any since the 70s. (Unless you count the paper dragons that we built and that our dear friend Osama pointed out)

My sister had a Lumina Euro, which is still being driven today by her step-daughter. The few times I drove it, I wasn't mortified or running away scared with the door swinging open behind me and a trail of dust from my feet. It was a car of the times, and many people enjoyed them. I'm part of a group at W-Body.com where there is enjoyment in these cars. These enthusiasts appreciate the car for its abilities and don't sit back and whine about fit-and-finish as it compares to an 18 year old import. They, and many others, could care less.

If this is purely a discussion based on business decisions that were reflected in the cars built in those times, then mistakes were clearly made; however, as I see it, people (sheeple) perhaps found themselves in a position of awkward embarrasement when they own a car the media and like-minded people continually spew negative remarks on. Who would WANT to be put in a position of constantly reading that the car they own is a piece of trash. That alone is enough to make a person wish they'd bought something else, compelling them to do the little research they would ever hope to for their next purchase, which would likely be in reading what the media would always have to say about how their crappy car couldn't hold a candle up to the imports. Gee, you think sheeple would take the extra steps for a personal opinion, as opposed to simply reading and saying, "Yeah, I'm going to buy an import next time. These guys clearly know what they're writing." What does a regular consumer know about such things?

While I would agree that there have been great advancements for quality standards that have placed imports in respectably high rankings next to the domestic product, I also think that many people were shamed into refusing to buy another domestic product just because they owned a particular vehicle the press and metro-sexual, interior-decorator-minded individuals hated.

I don't know if I worded that clearly enough to understand, but I think the point is easy to see.

[vonVeezelsnider]

It's a sad day when people are saying that a Ford Edge or a Chevrolet Impala are gas guzzlers.

Yeah, I've had that happen to me... I Drove the Impala to school on the other day because my car was in for a tire rotation, and I got razzed on by a couple of people I know, including some members of the "Youth For Justice" Committee, because they saw my car as a giant, gas eating, earth killing dinosaur (To be fair- along with an Oldsmobile 88, Buick LeSabre, and a 1980s Jag, it was among the biggest cars in the lot). One of my friends is a greenie and has a 2004 Camry XLE V6- he told me I was lying when I said it got 22MPG City.

[daves87rs]

Yeah, I've had that happen to me... I Drove the Impala to school on the other day because my car was in for a tire rotation, and I got razzed on by a couple of people I know, including some members of the "Youth For Justice" Committee, because they saw my car as a giant, gas eating, earth killing dinosaur (To be fair- along with an Oldsmobile 88, Buick LeSabre, and a 1980s Jag, it was among the biggest cars in the lot). One of my friends is a greenie and has a 2004 Camry XLE V6- he told me I was lying when I said it got 22MPG City.

That's when I tell them you can run over more greenies that way...

You could probably hit most of those tint cars in the parking lot and still drive the Impy away...

I think I am going to keep the cobalt (I thought about trading it in on our next car) just to commute, then I can get whatever car I want, regardless of gas milage....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

My sister had a Lumina Euro, which is still being driven today by her step-daughter. The few times I drove it, I wasn't mortified or running away scared with the door swinging open behind me and a trail of dust from my feet. It was a car of the times, and many people enjoyed them. I'm part of a group at W-Body.com where there is enjoyment in these cars. These enthusiasts appreciate the car for its abilities and don't sit back and whine about fit-and-finish as it compares to an 18 year old import. They, and many others, could care less.

If this is purely a discussion based on business decisions that were reflected in the cars built in those times, then mistakes were clearly made; however, as I see it, people (sheeple) perhaps found themselves in a position of awkward embarrasement when they own a car the media and like-minded people continually spew negative remarks on. Who would WANT to be put in a position of constantly reading that the car they own is a piece of trash. That alone is enough to make a person wish they'd bought something else, compelling them to do the little research they would ever hope to for their next purchase, which would likely be in reading what the media would always have to say about how their crappy car couldn't hold a candle up to the imports. Gee, you think sheeple would take the extra steps for a personal opinion, as opposed to simply reading and saying, "Yeah, I'm going to buy an import next time. These guys clearly know what they're writing." What does a regular consumer know about such things?

While I would agree that there have been great advancements for quality standards that have placed imports in respectably high rankings next to the domestic product, I also think that many people were shamed into refusing to buy another domestic product just because they owned a particular vehicle the press and metro-sexual, interior-decorator-minded individuals hated.

I don't know if I worded that clearly enough to understand, but I think the point is easy to see.

It's perfect!

[enzl]

More blaming perception rather than reality.

GM's 90's stuff was perceived as Sh!t because it, mostly, was sh!t.

That any rational human could state that a Lumina is the equal to an Accord of that era needs a drug test, stat!

The Japanese made their real inroads during that time. Today, the differences betrween worst and best are so much narrower as to make any choice defensible. But the battle was lost then---it got papered over in the SUV craze, but the battle was lost then, rest assured.

And, gee, FOG, you'd think that any company would like to market to the people that could afford their product? C'mon, man--another attempt to make a class-argument out of simple logic--smarter people (mostly) make smarter choices (mostly). The more educated make more money. These aren't slights or slurs, just facts, man. What part of your brain can't understand that?

[turbo200]

More blaming perception rather than reality.

GM's 90's stuff was perceived as Sh!t because it, mostly, was sh!t.

it's like suddenly everybody should hold thier mouths from offending buyers of GM cars.......

the point is never never to try and bring down the people who bought the cars. it's stupid. if you don't like the car you bought simply trade it in someday for a different one, if you like it, then don't worry about what others have to say. there are some here who rub the salt in the wound by constantly mentioning what they think is wrong with each and every car; I wouldn't like to hear it all the time either, maybe we should address those who are repetitive. nearly every car could be spinned by some idiot in a negative way, so don't worry about it, buy your car and be happy.

but when there are valid criticisms and obvious downfalls to a car, just admit it and move on. get educated and go on. the lumina of the early 1990's, having had one in the family and one owned by a girlfriend, is really a perfect example of what most GM cars have been in the '90's and early 2000's, they're fine cars, appliances, decent travel back and forth, coarse and a little held back, a dash unsophisticated. the camry and accord of the time were buttoned down, drove solidly, the handling and steering were much much much more composed, there was simply no comparison, the designs were more enduring and timeless, any lumina.....look here's the part where I could become offensive.

many people on this board underestimate the power of design. many many people make the quickest judgement just based on looks. they either like it or they don't. then comes other more informed buyers to complicate the decision and try to educate the buyer. but it mostly still comes back to the buyer's judgement, after of course he's done research because now he's become 'educated'.

this 'education' is what so many here speak ill upon. notice i am putting education in quotes and not trying to say those that buy GM cars are uneducated [even though statistically speaking, more GM buyers have lower income and lower education levels than buyers of toyota/honda.] that 'education' simply is this...it comes down to the drive and the details with the product, and it all adds up, every single storage space, every radio design that seems more clever, more well though out, seats that seem more ergonomically correct, seats that aren't just one big marshmallow, it comes down to sleek exterior lines that seem concise, thorough, enduring, simple, elegant, not silly or overwrought, then there's the freakin drive.....which only now with a product like the malibu is GM beginning to see it's the sum of the whole experience, since this is the first car with a quiet refined and sophisticated flexible DOHC engine for the masses, including a nice quiet and efficient 4 cylinder. it's in the steering feel, the solidarity and quietness of the suspension. it's the complete package, i can't say thie enough. but the reason there is this stereotype that buyers of GM cars are less sophisticated or less smart about thier decisions is because stereotypes often have some truth to them. overall the japanese cars are more involved and elegant experiences.......american cars like the lumina cannot being to claim anywhere near this.

GM and Ford have no one to blame for themselves [honestly Ford less so, I really think overall thier development has been a lot more thorough over the last two decades, it's just that GM has a ton more models and more brand loyalty around here than Ford, so it gets confused].

for the last decades on every point of designing and engineering cars, it just seems that GM and Ford were content with marginal quality, mediocre overall, while toyota and honda were running away with consumers who cared enough to notice the sophistication in their designs.

Edited June 9, 2008 by turbo200

[gmcbob]

I'm part of a demographic that probably buys more import than domestic. I have a college education and I'm in my early 30s - I work in the oil industry in Houston and my wife's a lawyer. I hang out in venues that are chock filled with similar types of people - here's what I notice at the parking lots of the bars and restaurants I go to where a lot of 30 somethings and late 20 somethings hang out; If it's a mid size car - more than likely it's Japanese. If it's an SUV, I'd say 75%-80% of the time it's domestic. If it's a luxury car - it's import typically, although I do see a lot of people my age rolling around in last generation CTS's (and I've seen a couple of new ones lately too). Over the last few years, I've actually seen a lot of men my age around here driving Chrysler 300s (hey, I seriously wanted one too for a while). But honestly, it's mostly imports except for the large SUV's. I've actually noticed a lot of new Tundras out and about too around here.

So, I can understand a lot of the sentiment on some of these posts. GM has just been high on crack with this SUV sh*t for the last few years, and they need to desperately figure out how to get people that make six figure incomes who were buying Tahoes and Yukons to start looking at Malibus and Buicks. They can do it I think, it's just going to take clever marketing.

I think the argument that GM buyers aren't as well educated may be true - but what I think has been happening is that most of the high income, better educated, typically urban customers that do buy GM have unfortunately been buying the large SUV's that are becoming not very economical or practical to have.

I don't know, sometimes I think we're all just over analyzing this to death. I think just having some really good cars and good advertising will turn the tide. I mean, if Chrysler can do it with the 300C, I know GM can do it.

[Robert Hall]

I'm part of a demographic that probably buys more import than domestic. I have a college education and I'm in my early 30s - I work in the oil industry in Houston and my wife's a lawyer. I hang out in venues that are chock filled with similar types of people - here's what I notice at the parking lots of the bars and restaurants I go to where a lot of 30 somethings and late 20 somethings hang out; If it's a mid size car - more than likely it's Japanese. If it's an SUV, I'd say 75%-80% of the time it's domestic. If it's a luxury car - it's import typically, although I do see a lot of people my age rolling around in last generation CTS's (and I've seen a couple of new ones lately too). Over the last few years, I've actually seen a lot of men my age around here driving Chrysler 300s (hey, I seriously wanted one too for a while). But honestly, it's mostly imports except for the large SUV's. I've actually noticed a lot of new Tundras out and about too around here.

Similar observations here from my experiences in the Denver and Scottsdale areas....I'm in my late 30s, educated (college and grad school) and in the computer industry, hang out with a lot of similarly educated tech industry people in their late 20s to early 40s, and it's pretty much the same....midsize family sedans are usually a Honda or Toyota with the occasional Passat or Altima; luxury cars--usually an Audi, BMW, Infiniti or Lexus; SUVs---Jeeps, 4Runners, and the occasional Xterra or Pathfinder (esp. in Denver, which is heavily SUV-centric). I notice very few pickup trucks or domestic cars of any sort.

I'm trying to think of any modern GM owners in my circle of friends and colleagues in both metro areas--- I know one guy with a Tahoe as a family car, another with a late model Escalade, and another with a Trailblazer and a Rendezvous (wife's car). One colleague had a late '90s Cavalier coupe, but traded last year on an Infiniti G37. I've worked with a couple of guys with older Camaros and one with 6 '60s-70s GTOs, but both are north of 50.

Edited June 10, 2008 by moltar

[haypops]

Well be older and poorer my experiences are at the Trader Joes (supermarket/health food/local food producers). I usually see a nice mix of American trucks and SUVs and Japanese mostly midsize cars here in Pasadena. However, one morning my wife and i went to the market early. It really was shocking. Mine was the only American car there. There were multitudes of Toyota and Honda vans and four Prius (s).

[haypops]

I think the argument that GM buyers aren't as well educated may be true - but what I think has been happening is that most of the high income, better educated, typically urban customers that do buy GM have unfortunately been buying the large SUV's that are becoming not very economical or practical to have.

.

I read that SUV owners are having an awful time trading in their vehicles. GM could get some real good-will and real good press by giving these customers special incentives to get into GM intermediates.

[gmcbob]

Yeah, the more I think about it, I see a lot of late model 4Runners for some reason. I do see a lot of late model Jeep Cherokees being driven by 30 somethings too.

Incidentally, my wife recently traded in her 2002 IS 300 Sportcross for a new G35 (no worries, I still have the Jimmy and my old 68 Impala). I sort of tried talking her into the CTS, but she still associated Cadillacs with her Dad (he had a new one every year). Oh, and the similarly equipped CTS was like $6k more.

We're a weird 30 something couple car wise - my wife, the very smart and attractive attorney with the new G35 - me, the goofy GM fan with an aging 98 Jimmy and a very leaky 68 Impala Convertible. hahahahahahaha.

[Robert Hall]

Yeah, the more I think about it, I see a lot of late model 4Runners for some reason. I do see a lot of late model Jeep Cherokees being driven by 30 somethings too.

Incidentally, my wife recently traded in her 2002 IS 300 Sportcross for a new G35 (no worries, I still have the Jimmy and my old 68 Impala). I sort of tried talking her into the CTS, but she still associated Cadillacs with her Dad (he had a new one every year). Oh, and the similarly equipped CTS was like $6k more.

We're a weird 30 something couple car wise - my wife, the very smart and attractive attorney with the new G35 - me, the goofy GM fan with an aging 98 Jimmy and a very leaky 68 Impala Convertible. hahahahahahaha.

In 10 years in Colorado, the most common SUVs I knew my 20- and 30- something friends and peers to drive were Cherokees, Grand Cherokees (what I drive), 4Runners, Xterras, and Frontiers....the Liberty less so.. and in Colorado, a decent number go off road.

Your couple car juxtaposition reminds me of my buddy Tony and his wife...when I first met them in '05, they had a late '90s Jimmy (his) and a '90s VW Golf cabrio (hers)...now, they've had their first child and he drives a Prius and she has a Highlander hybrid...

For unusual car mixes, a couple whom are my closest friends in Colorado have an '02 Maxima SE (his), '91 Acura NSX (his baby), and a '99 Dodge Intrepid (hers, strangely, she's from So Cal and drives a Dodge!). She's thinking of trading it soon on something like a Murano, as they are trying to have their first child. His 40th birthday is coming next year, and the car he's looking for as a project? A '69-72 Grand Prix! (they have a 4 car garage, so that's doable).

Edited June 10, 2008 by moltar

[CARBIZ]

More blaming perception rather than reality.

GM's 90's stuff was perceived as Sh!t because it, mostly, was sh!t.

That any rational human could state that a Lumina is the equal to an Accord of that era needs a drug test, stat!

The Japanese made their real inroads during that time. Today, the differences betrween worst and best are so much narrower as to make any choice defensible. But the battle was lost then---it got papered over in the SUV craze, but the battle was lost then, rest assured.

And, gee, FOG, you'd think that any company would like to market to the people that could afford their product? C'mon, man--another attempt to make a class-argument out of simple logic--smarter people (mostly) make smarter choices (mostly). The more educated make more money. These aren't slights or slurs, just facts, man. What part of your brain can't understand that?

Smarter people in what way? Like the widow of my former boss (whose son is now a big shot at one of Canada's biggest banks, thanks to his gold plated education, paid for by years of his father selling Cadillacs) who is now driving a BMW, because her son 'insisted?' Like a former client of mine who had 2 Aleros, and who told me that her boss told her that she could no longer drive a 'domestic,' yet the rail company she works for does a lot of hauling for GM?

I drove a '98 Lumina for 2 weeks while my Blazer was in the shop after an accident. Again, the dash and plastics were somewhat lacking, but there was nothing over all wrong with the car. The ride and handling were probably mushy for some people's tastes, but I can remember test driving people in a Malibu at the time and people complaining that they prefered the Lumina's ride over the 'harsher' Malibu. GM's fault was spending the money on things buyers couldn't appreciate during a ten minute test drive: OnStar, automatic headlights, Oil Life Monitor, standard ABS, etc. while Honda provided better door handles. It's amazing how easily people can be fooled.

Tyranny of the enthusiasts. 250 hp minivans, brought to you buy the a-holes at C&D, MT, CR et al. 18" wheels on family sedans, brought to you by C&D, MT, CR and their counterparts.

We cannot get through the day without being barraged by 'lifestyle' ads and infomercials disguised as news editorials that tell us what to do. Many of the arguments seen right here on C&G illustrate my case. Kids who are pissed that the Malibu isn't available with a standard shift or nav screen becomes a 3 page thread! Supposedly learned people who will cut their own nose off because the Camaro has a B-pilar. People who spend hours on this site, yet miss the irony that they are driving an import - even a used one.

Rome is burning, and we are arguing over who forgot to bring the marshmallows.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM's 90's stuff was perceived as Sh!t because it, mostly, was sh!t.

That any rational human could state that a Lumina is the equal to an Accord of that era needs a drug test, stat!

That's your PERCEPTION of the situation. In reality, the cars were equal, for the most part.

The Japanese made their real inroads during that time. Today, the differences betrween worst and best are so much narrower as to make any choice defensible. But the battle was lost then---it got papered over in the SUV craze, but the battle was lost then, rest assured.

And by "papered over" you mean non-existent since the asians couldn't "capture" the market with the crap that they called competitive.

And, gee, FOG, you'd think that any company would like to market to the people that could afford their product?

Yeah, and what's your point?

Besides, just like griffon predicted, once prices rise due to CAFE there will be a lot less new car sales simply for that reason.

C'mon, man--another attempt to make a class-argument out of simple logic

Does that make it false?

--smarter people (mostly) make smarter choices (mostly).

Wrong. "smarter people" need to fit in with the image of being a "smarter person" so they buy what they're "supposed" to buy. That's capitalism 101 man. Why else would a "smart person buy a $30K Accord when they can get more car for the money from GM or Ford? Reliability is certainly no longer an issue. Why would a "smart" person drive 5 miles across town to Starbucks for a cup of joe when they could get a better cup at a local coffee shop? Why does a "smart" kid aspire to own Nike shoes when New Balance are just as good or better?

It's all about PERCEPTION and image management. And it's a capitalist driven mindset that has been instilled in our minds since birth. We are a consumer culture and we buy that which reflects our "intelligence" or "personality"

The more educated make more money.

Not always. Often the more business savvy, talented and consistent people make money.

These aren't slights or slurs, just facts, man. What part of your brain can't understand that?

You do realize that you just reaffirmed everything that I said. I just provided the meaning behind it and tried to explain why GM is in the predicament they're in. Environment affects everything that we do. GM's problems and fortunes are at least 50% cultural and until GM understands that and does something about it, they will continue to fail.

If you don't believe me, that's fine. But I'd like to point out that so far 'product' hasn't done the trick.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

the point is never never to try and bring down the people who bought the cars. it's stupid. if you don't like the car you bought simply trade it in someday for a different one, if you like it, then don't worry about what others have to say. there are some here who rub the salt in the wound by constantly mentioning what they think is wrong with each and every car; I wouldn't like to hear it all the time either, maybe we should address those who are repetitive. nearly every car could be spinned by some idiot in a negative way, so don't worry about it, buy your car and be happy.

Pop culture does this every day. I'm a die hard GM enthusiast and there was a time a couple of years ago that even I believed Gm to be inferior to Toyota simply because of the editorial and 'news' blitz against the company that I am so loyal to. If it's affecting me, then surely it's having a profound effect on average buyers.

Another example... This is the same pop culture that has worked so hard to condition people that buying an SUV of any type is immoral. Edmunds reviewed the hybrid Tahoe and STILL asserted that it is immoral to buy a large SUV, even as the truck consistently got the mileage of a Camry. How's THAT for opinion swaying? They're so blinded by pop culture and the need (basic need) to be accepted that they couldn't even realize the significance of that vehicle.

but when there are valid criticisms and obvious downfalls to a car, just admit it and move on. get educated and go on. the lumina of the early 1990's, having had one in the family and one owned by a girlfriend, is really a perfect example of what most GM cars have been in the '90's and early 2000's, they're fine cars, appliances, decent travel back and forth, coarse and a little held back, a dash unsophisticated.

I agree entirely... But at the same time, Toyota is ALWAYS applauded for building just that, especially now. It's all about perception. Toyota building appliances is acceptable, but appliances from GM are not because of the company's heritage. And that is one reason I said that GM must excel on design.

the camry and accord of the time were buttoned down, drove solidly, the handling and steering were much much much more composed, there was simply no comparison, the designs were more enduring and timeless, any lumina.....look here's the part where I could become offensive.

GM was only trying to do what it was expected to do; inject design into the cars. Toyota and Honda played it safe (boring) and it worked to their advantage because that's what people expect.

many people on this board underestimate the power of design. many many people make the quickest judgement just based on looks. they either like it or they don't. then comes other more informed buyers to complicate the decision and try to educate the buyer. but it mostly still comes back to the buyer's judgement, after of course he's done research because now he's become 'educated'.

Because durable goods are sold on emotion, not logic.

this 'education' is what so many here speak ill upon. notice i am putting education in quotes and not trying to say those that buy GM cars are uneducated [even though statistically speaking, more GM buyers have lower income and lower education levels than buyers of toyota/honda.]

Correct. These people are the buyer #1 that I'm referring to. They were specifically marketed to by the asian companies. And that was a brilliant move because these people are the trendsetters in the market now.

but the reason there is this stereotype that buyers of GM cars are less sophisticated or less smart about thier decisions is because stereotypes often have some truth to them. overall the japanese cars are more involved and elegant experiences.......american cars like the lumina cannot being to claim anywhere near this.

I wouldn't say involved and elegant. I think that's better reserved for the german cars. Yes, stereotypes often hold truths and I think it's based our culture moving away from a traditional mindset as well as GM's bad missteps.

GM and Ford have no one to blame for themselves [honestly Ford less so, I really think overall thier development has been a lot more thorough over the last two decades, it's just that GM has a ton more models and more brand loyalty around here than Ford, so it gets confused].

I think it started with GM and Ford. But after they 'opened the door for criticism' and left it open for 20 years, things spiraled out of control. You now have entire families and professions that will not buy american simply because they feel it is beneath them. That, my friends, is cultural.

[ShadowDog]

Well, if we must talk about the reality of the situation, let's cover the two things mentioned: education and cost.

In the 90's, if a domestic product required a repair, it was typically lower in cost next to the import product. As an example, my friend's parents owned a 90's 4Runner that was left to rot in a field until they could sell it because the cost of a new ECM was not in the hundreds, but the thousands. They finally did sell it a year later. It's funny how educated people won't touch something superior with a ten-foot pole if it isn't working. No fit-and-finish, quality materials, refined engineering or superior components will help a vehicle that won't start until a couple grand is pumped into it.

When it comes to education in university, for many, their vehicle purchase is based on status. When educated people buy a Mercedes, are they getting a superior product? A product that has been notorious for electrical issues has been reserved for people with the money. Educated people have earned the right to drive a status symbol, not a superior car. Did Honda build a superior vehicle in the 90s? Perhaps. But how many buyers were looking at panel fit-and-finish when making their car purchase? How many people likely bothered to compare the Lumina and the Accord when making their decision. It's more likely that an Accord buyer was always a Honda buyer to begin with. Honda had just designed the Accord for entry in the mid-sized car market, so if anything, it was 'worth a look' to buyers of other models. If so, did these buyers get sold on the car because a salesman said it was 'better put together than a Lumina'? Likely not. If anything, all the salesman had to say was, 'and you get Honda quality with your purchase'. For most sheeple, this is all they need to hear.

Educated buyers are classroom smart, but that doesn't mean they are automotive smart. In fact, I would bet that most classroom-educated buyers know far less about cars than your average buyer. To me, it's expected they would receive their information from media publications and bias personal relationship reviews than actually doing their own homework. I'm not calling them ignorant buyers, but I would tend to think that an informed buyer would be one with experience behind the wheel of both makes through owning from both makes outright.

If we want to read words on a paper, read these:

Honda Accord: http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...onda-accord.htm

Chevrolet Lumina:

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...olet-lumina.htm

...doesn't seem to be a lot of difference these days.

[CARBIZ]

Well, if we must talk about the reality of the situation, let's cover the two things mentioned: education and cost.

In the 90's, if a domestic product required a repair, it was typically lower in cost next to the import product. As an example, my friend's parents owned a 90's 4Runner that was left to rot in a field until they could sell it because the cost of a new ECM was not in the hundreds, but the thousands. They finally did sell it a year later. It's funny how educated people won't touch something superior with a ten-foot pole if it isn't working. No fit-and-finish, quality materials, refined engineering or superior components will help a vehicle that won't start until a couple grand is pumped into it.

When it comes to education in university, for many, their vehicle purchase is based on status. When educated people buy a Mercedes, are they getting a superior product? A product that has been notorious for electrical issues has been reserved for people with the money. Educated people have earned the right to drive a status symbol, not a superior car. Did Honda build a superior vehicle in the 90s? Perhaps. But how many buyers were looking at panel fit-and-finish when making their car purchase? How many people likely bothered to compare the Lumina and the Accord when making their decision. It's more likely that an Accord buyer was always a Honda buyer to begin with. Honda had just designed the Accord for entry in the mid-sized car market, so if anything, it was 'worth a look' to buyers of other models. If so, did these buyers get sold on the car because a salesman said it was 'better put together than a Lumina'? Likely not. If anything, all the salesman had to say was, 'and you get Honda quality with your purchase'. For most sheeple, this is all they need to hear.

Educated buyers are classroom smart, but that doesn't mean they are automotive smart. In fact, I would bet that most classroom-educated buyers know far less about cars than your average buyer. To me, it's expected they would receive their information from media publications and bias personal relationship reviews than actually doing their own homework. I'm not calling them ignorant buyers, but I would tend to think that an informed buyer would be one with experience behind the wheel of both makes through owning from both makes outright.

If we want to read words on a paper, read these:

Honda Accord: http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...onda-accord.htm

Chevrolet Lumina:

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...olet-lumina.htm

...doesn't seem to be a lot of difference these days.

Actually, when I was refreshing my mind about the '92 Accord, I came across that website and chortled at the low score of 53 (out of 100) for that generation Accord. I never bothered checking the site for the Lumina because a) I know the car well and b) I never put much crediblity in those type of results, even if they support my theory.

So, it would seem that supposedly credible sites like ConsumerGuide don't think the Lumina was any worse than the Accord.

Doesn't matter, though. Those who continue buying imports because they are convinced they are 'superior' will continue to do so. Until the last job is shipped to Asia, that is.

[The O.C.]

My sister had a Lumina Euro, which is still being driven today by her step-daughter. The few times I drove it, I wasn't mortified or running away scared with the door swinging open behind me and a trail of dust from my feet. It was a car of the times, and many people enjoyed them. I'm part of a group at W-Body.com where there is enjoyment in these cars. These enthusiasts appreciate the car for its abilities and don't sit back and whine about fit-and-finish as it compares to an 18 year old import. They, and many others, could care less.

That's fine if you are a Lumina or W-Body enthusiast.

That's NOT fine if you are trying to engineer, design, and develop a midsize sedan that's effectively competent enough to take on the leaders in the segment.

[CARBIZ]

That's fine if you are a Lumina or W-Body enthusiast.

That's NOT fine if you are trying to engineer, design, and develop a midsize sedan that's effectively competent enough to take on the leaders in the segment.

Which leaders? Define 'leader.' Would the Impala compete against a BMW 3? Clearly, not. Then again, I'd keep the extra 10 grand in the bank, plus those famous service visits and enjoy my 40 mpg Impala, thanks.

That is the trouble, though: the media won't judge a vehicle for what it is and what it proposes to do. Did the last generation Lumina provide a comfortable, reliable, safe driving environment for a family of 5 for under $20k? Yes. Would it appease the weekend warrior who thinks he is Mario Andretti's bitch? No. Should it? No.

Why does the media in general look down its nose at vehicles like the Lumina? Sure, we can laugh at the car NOW, but judged against its peers of the day (the Taures, Intrepids, Accords, etc.), it was not horrid or awful, just merely average.

Instead, the media chooses to badger and cajole your average, everyday American who just wants cheap, reliable transport that they should somehow go out and blow their brains out on an Audi or BMW because it is 'better.'

In whose estimation?

[haypops]

Instead, the media chooses to badger and cajole your average, everyday American who just wants cheap, reliable transport that they should somehow go out and blow their brains out on an Audi or BMW because it is 'better.'

Well said. Sometimes just good enough really is good enough. I think that GM's just good enough cars like the Cavelier and Cobalt have something more to offer than other "just good enough" cars. It used to be called "body by Fisher". Now it just presents as an an inexpensive car that really feels "grown up". That is not always the case in some of the older Japanese cars.

[The O.C.]

Which leaders? Define 'leader.' Would the Impala compete against a BMW 3? Clearly, not.

TAURUS. CAMRY. ACCORD.

Not to mention the fact that as GM has attempted to improve the competitiveness of their midsize cars (to a more-or-less unsuccessful degree until Malibu/AURA came out)....those other guys have only gotten better and better. And Altima has come onto the scene as well.

[The O.C.]

Well said. Sometimes just good enough really is good enough.

I TOTALLY disagree.

In today's industry, "just good enough" is a death sentence.

[haypops]

I TOTALLY disagree.

In today's industry, "just good enough" is a death sentence.

When the Camry generation before the present one first came out, Toyota made a big deal of saying the previous generation was too good - too expensive and they were dedicated to cheapen it out. I think they succeeded.

[enzl]

Firstly, anyone that can argue with a straight face that the Lumina was even in the same ballpark as that era's Camcord just isn't seeing things as they are. I'll leave that argument at that.

Now, GM's current predicament is all about inferior image and product that's just beginning to equal or surpass the competition in the car sector. Again, for those needing a remedial lesson: the Aveo cannot run with the Fit. An Impala is a dinosaur. Buick sedans are a joke. The DTS is a relic of the bad old days. The Cobalt/G5 are segment bottom feeders. Reliable, boring, gov't issue snooze---is this what GM stands for? Who's trading in their Accord for that?---It can't even be argued that all of their product is near class competitive--we're still talking 50/50, at best.

You can put your heads in the sand, try to sell a 'deal' or argue til blue in the face. The enthusiasts & the sheeple have spoken. Check out May 08's numbers...it's in black & white. If I hear 'wait until XXX comes out' one more time, I'm going to puke. GM has fallen into a hole of its own making--now the question is when or if (unfortunately) they're going to get out of it.

It will be one generation of buyers before GM gets back on many shoppers lists. That requires SUPERIOR, not 'as good as' product. The Malibu & CTS prove the slide can be stopped. It'll take much longer to actually make any gains. The question is whether GM has the time or talent to do so.

[ShadowDog]

I TOTALLY disagree.

In today's industry, "just good enough" is a death sentence.

I thought we were talking about the 90s. You just finished talking about how GM has done well with the Malibu / Aura, so are you going to give them credit for it at all? Or are you going to pigeon-hole them with the expectation of finding something to bring them to a sub-par level... which, by what I'm reading from you, would be considered a sub-par level at only a split-hair lower than the Taurus, Accord, Camry.

Wait, you said Taurus? Yeah, they sold a lot of them, but did you even remember the mistake they admitted to making in designing the oval-submarine of the mid-90s? It was horrid. Funny, they still sold plenty. Wow, the Lumina wasn't the best the best. Funny, they still sold plenty.

[Robert Hall]

Wait, you said Taurus? Yeah, they sold a lot of them, but did you even remember the mistake they admitted to making in designing the oval-submarine of the mid-90s? It was horrid. Funny, they still sold plenty. Wow, the Lumina wasn't the best the best. Funny, they still sold plenty.

Yes, even mediocre can sell....a lot of buyers couldn't tell the difference or didn't care as long as they were cheap enough.

[CARBIZ]

Firstly, anyone that can argue with a straight face that the Lumina was even in the same ballpark as that era's Camcord just isn't seeing things as they are. I'll leave that argument at that.

Now, GM's current predicament is all about inferior image and product that's just beginning to equal or surpass the competition in the car sector. Again, for those needing a remedial lesson: the Aveo cannot run with the Fit. An Impala is a dinosaur. Buick sedans are a joke. The DTS is a relic of the bad old days. The Cobalt/G5 are segment bottom feeders. Reliable, boring, gov't issue snooze---is this what GM stands for? Who's trading in their Accord for that?---It can't even be argued that all of their product is near class competitive--we're still talking 50/50, at best.

You can put your heads in the sand, try to sell a 'deal' or argue til blue in the face. The enthusiasts & the sheeple have spoken. Check out May 08's numbers...it's in black & white. If I hear 'wait until XXX comes out' one more time, I'm going to puke. GM has fallen into a hole of its own making--now the question is when or if (unfortunately) they're going to get out of it.

It will be one generation of buyers before GM gets back on many shoppers lists. That requires SUPERIOR, not 'as good as' product. The Malibu & CTS prove the slide can be stopped. It'll take much longer to actually make any gains. The question is whether GM has the time or talent to do so.

And yet even when confronted with 'evidence,' the naysayers still read from the same prayer book, or did you even bother to read Shadowdog's post from ConsumersGuide? Consumer's Guide ranked the Lumina and Accord exactly even.

WHAT'S THAT DEAFENING SILENCE I HEAR?

At a GM meeting we were at a few weeks ago, (while comparing the new Accord with the new Malibu, BTW), it was pointed out by GM bigwigs that nobody really builds 'bad' cars anymore, and that the differences are so minute as to be almost indestinguishable. Unless, of course, CR, MT, etc. whip their pet peeve into the End of the World.

GM has a perception problem, largely perpetuated by those with agendas of their own. Just wait until the Toyota War Machine ramps up against the Volt.

[CARBIZ]

Yes, even mediocre can sell....a lot of buyers couldn't tell the difference or didn't care as long as they were cheap enough.

Are you saying that is a BAD thing? Lots of people don't give a crap about their cars. They never wash them. They barely have the oil changed. All they expect is the damned thing to start in the morning and not cost them much to fix. Why do self-appointed experts look down on that? It should not be the aspiration of every damned vehicle to do 1.2 G on the skid pad, 0-60 in 4 seconds and have 22" wheels. That sort of thinking is just warped.

90% of the Lumina buyers were quite happy with their purchase, until the 'experts' started telling them their car was mediocre.

[ShadowDog]

Are you saying that is a BAD thing? Lots of people don't give a crap about their cars. They never wash them. They barely have the oil changed. All they expect is the damned thing to start in the morning and not cost them much to fix. Why do self-appointed experts look down on that? It should not be the aspiration of every damned vehicle to do 1.2 G on the skid pad, 0-60 in 4 seconds and have 22" wheels. That sort of thinking is just warped.

90% of the Lumina buyers were quite happy with their purchase, until the 'experts' started telling them their car was mediocre.

Beyond this, I would tend to think most import buyers (remember, they're buying 'quality' here) would have a much higher expectation to have zero-troubles with their new (or even USED) purchase. Now, I'm not saying this as a point against them; however, it's tough to be reasonably impressed with a car company's stance on quality when there is plenty of evidence that service shops at Honda and Toyota find it difficult to acknowledge a 'problem' with a customer's car. How is it fair to charge a customer a premium for a car's ability to look like it was put together with a ruler in one hand, but not follow up with concern when a particular model's transmission has notable issues, or a door guard begins to come loose and fall off, or a truck would surge ahead when the driver wants it to slow down...

All car companies have issues. The perception of quality is more than just a panel gap or interior fit-and-finish. Even a vehicle with hand-assembled everything is only as good as the sum of its parts.

[CARBIZ]

Beyond this, I would tend to think most import buyers (remember, they're buying 'quality' here) would have a much higher expectation to have zero-troubles with their new (or even USED) purchase. Now, I'm not saying this as a point against them; however, it's tough to be reasonably impressed with a car company's stance on quality when there is plenty of evidence that service shops at Honda and Toyota find it difficult to acknowledge a 'problem' with a customer's car. How is it fair to charge a customer a premium for a car's ability to look like it was put together with a ruler in one hand, but not follow up with concern when a particular model's transmission has notable issues, or a door guard begins to come loose and fall off, or a truck would surge ahead when the driver wants it to slow down...

All car companies have issues. The perception of quality is more than just a panel gap or interior fit-and-finish. Even a vehicle with hand-assembled everything is only as good as the sum of its parts.

And don't forget, if the 'educated' consumer willingly spends $3-5k more for their choice, over a similar GM product, they are more apt to have it washed, waxed, babied ("don't even THINK about eating in my Lexus!") over the course of its life, thus providing a self-fulfilling prophecy: the import is better because it was looked after better.

[enzl]

And yet even when confronted with 'evidence,' the naysayers still read from the same prayer book, or did you even bother to read Shadowdog's post from ConsumersGuide? Consumer's Guide ranked the Lumina and Accord exactly even.

WHAT'S THAT DEAFENING SILENCE I HEAR?

At a GM meeting we were at a few weeks ago, (while comparing the new Accord with the new Malibu, BTW), it was pointed out by GM bigwigs that nobody really builds 'bad' cars anymore, and that the differences are so minute as to be almost indestinguishable. Unless, of course, CR, MT, etc. whip their pet peeve into the End of the World.

GM has a perception problem, largely perpetuated by those with agendas of their own. Just wait until the Toyota War Machine ramps up against the Volt.

First, I work...I'm not hanging out waiting for your next brilliant counterpoint, so that's the silence that you hear.

WTF is ConsumersGuide? And how are they any different from CR or any other reputable source that I'm certain will support the obvious fact that an Accord runs circles around the Lumina! (I mean, is this where we're headed? The Lumina, for Christ's sake?)

I stated explicitly in my posts that there is a minute quality difference now...and that there's a perception problem. How about Reading Comprehension 101 before trying to be witty?

And of course, all neutral info gathered at a GM meeting MUST be right, right? C'mon, man. The Lumina was good? GM info is somehow more reliable than neutral sources? Please. You're insulting the stupid with that stupidity.

Biz---do me a favor. When you've got real info to dispute things, go ahead. Until then, ignore my posts--you completely and totally mislead other, less informed posters with your utter nonsense.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...da-accord-6.htm Accord Review

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...olet-lumina.htm Lumina

NOW CLEARLY, these reviews are the be all, end all authority on the topic---Consumer Guide doesn't even have their own site---its a sub-site of 'how stuff works'.

I posted these so everyone can see the "source" of your information. If these guys are OK, than I assume you're accepting CR, C&D, MT & all other legitimate auto rags as sources as well. This is the depths we need to explore to find positive info? I really feel sorry for anyone quoting these findings...

Edited June 11, 2008 by enzl

[enzl]

And don't forget, if the 'educated' consumer willingly spends $3-5k more for their choice, over a similar GM product, they are more apt to have it washed, waxed, babied ("don't even THINK about eating in my Lexus!") over the course of its life, thus providing a self-fulfilling prophecy: the import is better because it was looked after better.

Excuses are like a$$holes, man. Everyone's got one, most of 'em stink.

[Drew Dowdell]

And don't forget, if the 'educated' consumer willingly spends $3-5k more for their choice, over a similar GM product, they are more apt to have it washed, waxed, babied ("don't even THINK about eating in my Lexus!") over the course of its life, thus providing a self-fulfilling prophecy: the import is better because it was looked after better.

Don't forget the coupons for discount oil changes, free car washes and a cappuccino so the technician can slip a TSB under the hood.

[enzl]

Don't forget the coupons for discount oil changes, free car washes and a cappuccino so the technician can slip a TSB under the hood.

Because customers coming back to the dealer for services is bad, 'boi? You're aware of the economics of a dealership and service 'coverage' for expenses, no?

Gotta tell ya, you guys just like to pick idiotic nits. How is customer service, a pleasant environment or a couple of free trinkets a bad idea?

No wonder you're constantly defending the indefensible.

[The O.C.]

I thought we were talking about the 90s. You just finished talking about how GM has done well with the Malibu / Aura, so are you going to give them credit for it at all? Or are you going to pigeon-hole them with the expectation of finding something to bring them to a sub-par level... which, by what I'm reading from you, would be considered a sub-par level at only a split-hair lower than the Taurus, Accord, Camry.

Wait, you said Taurus? Yeah, they sold a lot of them, but did you even remember the mistake they admitted to making in designing the oval-submarine of the mid-90s? It was horrid. Funny, they still sold plenty. Wow, the Lumina wasn't the best the best. Funny, they still sold plenty.

My point being....."just good enough" wasn't good enough back in the 80's and 90's any more than it's good enough in the 2000's.

And if you've read any of my posts on the Malibu, I've praised that car overly strongly (with the exception of a few interior nitpicks.)

But like Enzl said.....as good as the Malibu is.....is it strong enough to turn around the slide? Or just slow it down or stop the slide?

[The O.C.]

At a GM meeting we were at a few weeks ago, (while comparing the new Accord with the new Malibu, BTW), it was pointed out by GM bigwigs that nobody really builds 'bad' cars anymore, and that the differences are so minute as to be almost indestinguishable. Unless, of course, CR, MT, etc. whip their pet peeve into the End of the World.

I happen to believe that's true. No one truly builds a "bad" car these days reliability wise......

But....I believe GM is getting cruxified because a vast majority of their products, while certainly as reliable as anything out there.....don't have the features, or fit-and-finish, or powertrain refinement, or the <pick your gripe> to compete as effectively in the marketplace as they should or need to.

(I'm referring to cars such as the Cobalts, Impalas, Lucerne/DTSs, G6s, of the world.....)

[The O.C.]

90% of the Lumina buyers were quite happy with their purchase, until the 'experts' started telling them their car was mediocre.

What about ALL those other midsize sedan buyers that DIDN'T choose Lumina?

Wonder why they made their decision to avoid the Lumina as their purchase choice?

If GM had engineered and designed a far better product....they could have still satisfied those aforementioned 90%.....and maybe even kept a whole hell of a lot of the others......

[Robert Hall]

My point being....."just good enough" wasn't good enough back in the 80's and 90's any more than it's good enough in the 2000's.

And if you've read any of my posts on the Malibu, I've praised that car overly strongly (with the exception of a few interior nitpicks.)

But like Enzl said.....as good as the Malibu is.....is it strong enough to turn around the slide? Or just slow it down or stop the slide?

My point exactly.... in cars, as in work and life, why accept 'average'? Strive for excellence.

[regfootball]

camry seems to be fine with average or lesser styling, average or lesser drving capabilities, and average or lesser value.

final result = urban legend created by hysteria and past

[The O.C.]

camry seems to be fine with average or lesser styling, average or lesser drving capabilities, and average or lesser value.

final result = urban legend created by hysteria and past

OK....in fairness to Camry....

Styling is subjective.....as far as value? Seems that quite a few people every year find the Camry to offer excellent value as a new-vehicle purchase.....

Driving capabilities? It may not be the most exciting car to drive, but it's certainly, I'd say, better than "average."

[Satty]

Who, as a car buyer, thinks "I want a sporty ride and a car that does 0-60 in 3.8, I'm heading to the Toyota store"? Nobody, thats who. The Camry's driving dynamics are great for what it is, a car that gets the kids to school and the parents to Starbucks then to work.

[enzl]

Ironically, the height of the Camry as 'class leading' was the early 90's LS400-lite. Toyota has dumbed down the Camry and went for production-broke...and succeeded, if sales are the ultimate objective.

The Camry is relentlessly average now, but its a strong default 'no-brainer' choice. An absolute masterstroke of reliability, reputation and kick-ass Marketing 101. Just like the D3 once did.

You can hate the cars, but you've gotta admire the shear tenacity Toyota has demonstrated.

[haypops]

Although I have recently gotten out of the habit, for years I listened to the auto. editor of consumer guides. I find him a unequaled source of automotive information. Whether interview Banks of banks engineering, Roush of Mustang fame, or GM engineer of the 3.8 L. development project, he was always knowledgeable and unbiased. He was no domestic shill nor an import hater. His road tests always included reasonable comparison with other choices in the market and a fair estimation of durability.

[Robert Hall]

Ironically, the height of the Camry as 'class leading' was the early 90's LS400-lite. Toyota has dumbed down the Camry and went for production-broke...and succeeded, if sales are the ultimate objective.

The Camry is relentlessly average now, but its a strong default 'no-brainer' choice. An absolute masterstroke of reliability, reputation and kick-ass Marketing 101. Just like the D3 once did.

You can hate the cars, but you've gotta admire the shear tenacity Toyota has demonstrated.

What is a D3, by the way?

I always thought the early '90s Camry also copied the look of the 1st gen Taurus. As far as mainstream Japanese family sedans go, I've always preferred the Accord...even in their most vanilla products, Honda has always had a measure of good driving experience in the mix...

[CARBIZ]

First, I work...I'm not hanging out waiting for your next brilliant counterpoint, so that's the silence that you hear.

WTF is ConsumersGuide? And how are they any different from CR or any other reputable source that I'm certain will support the obvious fact that an Accord runs circles around the Lumina! (I mean, is this where we're headed? The Lumina, for Christ's sake?)

I stated explicitly in my posts that there is a minute quality difference now...and that there's a perception problem. How about Reading Comprehension 101 before trying to be witty?

And of course, all neutral info gathered at a GM meeting MUST be right, right? C'mon, man. The Lumina was good? GM info is somehow more reliable than neutral sources? Please. You're insulting the stupid with that stupidity.

Biz---do me a favor. When you've got real info to dispute things, go ahead. Until then, ignore my posts--you completely and totally mislead other, less informed posters with your utter nonsense.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...da-accord-6.htm Accord Review

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...olet-lumina.htm Lumina

NOW CLEARLY, these reviews are the be all, end all authority on the topic---Consumer Guide doesn't even have their own site---its a sub-site of 'how stuff works'.

I posted these so everyone can see the "source" of your information. If these guys are OK, than I assume you're accepting CR, C&D, MT & all other legitimate auto rags as sources as well. This is the depths we need to explore to find positive info? I really feel sorry for anyone quoting these findings...

If anyone needs a reading test, it would be you. Try re-reading my post in response to Shadowdog, where I acknowledge I had originally ignored the Consumersguide ratings and acknowledged that I don't put much credence in those (or any) surveys.

sheesh, we're touchy today. You just gotta get personal, don't you?