G3 Coming?

[Guest aatbloke]

the US aint europe. as per usual practice our quest for innovation solving problems will win out in the end rather than settling for lowest common denominator solutions

Right - innovative solving problems such as the Kyoto accord.

Edited June 5, 2008 by aatbloke

[ocnblu]

Please feel free to spend your remaining days in Weybridge. Thanks.

[Guest aatbloke]

Please feel free to spend your remaining days in Weybridge. Thanks.

I wish I had a job which dictated as such.

[CARBIZ]

This Europe versus North America argument is getting tiresome. There is no question North America is different, both in mindset and geography. Canadians often get chastised by the Old World for being energy wasters, yet being the 2nd largest country in the world with a population 2/3 of Britain's is an enormous challenge. As an accountant friend of mine once said, 'you'd be amazed at the difference 5 degrees celsius makes in the cost of everything.' Toronto spent $65 million just on snow removal last winter alone, plus another estimated $17million in repairs to roads and pipes afterward. I wonder what Atlanta or Birmingham spend on snow removal in a year.

It takes 5 days to drive from Toronto to Vancouver. I know, I've done it twice - once through Canada and once through the Northern U.S. I've also flown it several times (4 1/2 hours). If two share the driving, it is still cheaper to drive than fly. Many families go on camping holidays because so much of North America is still relatively untamed. The same is not true of Great Britain, unless you mean some of the windswept islands in northern Scotland.

Americans more so than Canadians are more likely to spend their holidays 'exploring' America - and I don't blame them: the U.S. has so many beautiful places to visit. Travel by train or plane is often impractical in the shorter hops, then the car rental can add up, too. Throw in a family of 5, and a road trip is far more cost effective. Do they need to do it in an Expedition? No. But would they rather do it in an Impala than a Mini? Obviously.

For the younger people on this board, this seems like the end of the world. For the old timers like myself, it is more of the same. Just like the pollution, overpopulation and 'end of oil' fake crises of the late '60s/early '70s, this too shall pass.

Things will change. North Americans will change. We will still have fun. We will still have our pleasure craft and cottages because the land is there and, let's face it, we have the oil. We just have to get at it.

Remember: Canada is your best friend, and we have more oil than Saudi Arabia. So be nice to us!

Edited June 5, 2008 by CARBIZ

[Guest aatbloke]

This Europe versus North America argument is getting tiresome. There is no question North America is different, both in mindset and geography. Canadians often get chastised by the Old World for being energy wasters, yet being the 2nd largest country in the world with a population 2/3 of Britain's is an enormous challenge. As an accountant friend of mine once said, 'you'd be amazed at the difference 5 degrees celsius makes in the cost of everything.' Toronto spent $65 million just on snow removal last winter alone, plus another estimated $17million in repairs to roads and pipes afterward. I wonder what Atlanta or Birmingham spend on snow removal in a year.

It takes 5 days to drive from Toronto to Vancouver. I know, I've done it twice - once through Canada and once through the Northern U.S. I've also flown it several times (4 1/2 hours). If two share the driving, it is still cheaper to drive than fly. Many families go on camping holidays because so much of North America is still relatively untamed. The same is not true of Great Britain, unless you mean some of the windswept islands in northern Scotland.

Americans more so than Canadians are more likely to spend their holidays 'exploring' America - and I don't blame them: the U.S. has so many beautiful places to visit. Travel by train or plane is often impractical in the shorter hops, then the car rental can add up, too. Throw in a family of 5, and a road trip is far more cost effective. Do they need to do it in an Expedition? No. But would they rather do it in an Impala than a Mini? Obviously.

For the younger people on this board, this seems like the end of the world. For the old timers like myself, it is more of the same. Just like the pollution, overpopulation and 'end of oil' fake crises of the late '60s/early '70s, this too shall pass.

Things will change. North Americans will change. We will still have fun. We will still have our pleasure craft and cottages because the land is there and, let's face it, we have the oil. We just have to get at it.

Remember: Canada is your best friend, and we have more oil than Saudi Arabia. So be nice to us!

Arguments such as this make very little sense. America is a large country, and so is Canada. However, the population isn't spread evenly across it just as it isn't in the UK. The average North American doesn't commute cross-country; they don't travel cross-country to go shopping, or to go for a meal, or to head to the cinema. The vast majority of driving tasks is identical to that in Europe, and indeed tax jurisdictions in both Europe and the US deem average annual car mileage to be the same. More Americans have less vacation time than Europeans, but use cars for the annual vacation more than Europeans do, although plenty of Europeans do travel across the continent by car for vacations despite the plethora of cut-price airlines.

So what's the necessity for so many large vehicles? Do Americans have more children than Europeans to ferry about? No. Are Americans that much larger in girth? Well, there are obesity issues everywhere in the world but not enough to demand SUV usage at its current rate. Do Americans need SUVs because they spend more time at DIY centres than Europeans? No. Do they move house more often? No. So what gives? Perhaps it's cheap fuel that has for many years been taken so much for granted, that it's almost deemed to be a necessity to sustain an increasingly debt-ridden lifestyle. Do Europeans take the family on holiday in an Impala? No. In a Mini? No. They'll likely use a D-segment or E-segment car shod with a modern turbodiesel. Some do use 4x4s but again, most of those will have turbodiesels. These days, a car the size of a Mondeo with said engine can easily sustain 50mpg (US) at a steady highway speed. Such cars have increased rapidly in popularity over the past fifteen years because demand has deemed it so. With low-sulphur derv now available in the States and the first wave of family vehicles from the likes of BMW, VW and Honda with modern TDIs about to hit US shores, there may well be a similar demand. That $1 per gallon extra in diesel cost - which also exists in a number of European countries, despite others having tax breaks for diesel - is soon negated when you're getting on for twice the fuel economy.

This isn't a "North America v Europe" argument. It's an economic argument, and one in which the whole world is dealing with by virtue of a finite commodity. The forces of economics have no regard for geography, but peoples' behaviour does affect economics itself. Europeans have changed their driving habits beyond recognition over the past thirty years, and North Americans will find they have to do the same.

Edited June 5, 2008 by aatbloke

[CARBIZ]

Europe was bombed into the Dark Ages 60 years ago; their 'changes' were forced upon them. Afterward, North America entered a period of lifestyle not seen since Roman times, and until the early '70s were virtually self-sufficient in all resources. (Actually, truth be told, if the borders closed tomorrow, North America would still be self-sufficient.)

Americans have the one of the lowest rates of possession of passports in the world. Look it up. I did. My parents dragged me all over Canada when I was a kid, as my sister is to hers now. Try dragging a 14' camper trailer, 4 boys, 2 dogs and 2 weeks worth of crap behind a Zafira. Her Silverado will do just fine.

Have you ever travelled to the Muskokas in Ontario or the Wisconsin Lakes? We have 25% of the world's fresh water and the lakes to prove it. Boat and cottage ownership is WAY higher over here than in Europe. There is going to be a lot of structural changes in our economy if oil exceeds $150 a barrel (which I don't think it will.) Nobody in my parent's generation flew anywhere - they drove. My mother has 2 condos in Florida and, you guessed it, she drives twice a year.

I am agreeing with you on the NEED for change, all I am saying is that it will take time and $5 a gallon isn't it - not yet anyway. Canada is already at $5.50 a gallon and $4 was our mainstay for a couple years.

But all of this is hype whipped up by the media anyway. Oil will come down, not to $50 again, but it will come down.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Why would it happen? For the same reason your average fuel prices have more than doubled in the past four years alone: global demand. The difference between this crisis and that on the 1970's is that today the USA has less influence over global demand. But the US economy can easily muster $6-$7 a gallon. What's required is a change in mindset and lifestyle as is the case in most other developed countries around the world, for example:

Obviously, you don't live here if you think that $6-7/gallon won't DEVASTATE (With a capital D) our economy.

And why should I have to change for the sake of other countries?

a) Realising that a 2.0 litre engine is actually quite large

Anything that I can compare the size of a Coke bottle to is not a large engine.

b) Deregulating public transport and making it more widely accessible

Which would take YEARS and BILLIONS that we won't have if gas continues to go up.

c) Buying a vehicle that isn't a needless waste most of the time but handy for a once every three years trip to the DIY centre

I have a truck, V8 and all. It certainly isn't "a waste" most of the time when I'm hauling farm equipment, or a camper, or classic cars, or livestock.

d) Picking and choosing your journeys

Limiting freedom. I know, I know, it is my duty as a member of this "global economy" to exist merely by working and sleeping alone. (Much sarcasm implied)

e) Carpooling

That's fine if you live in the city, which a WHOLE LOT of americans don't. Not to mention, with my size, carpooling isn't always an option. that doesn't even take into consideration differing schedules and the like.

f) Having a baby does not mean instantly running out and buying a 4 litre 4WD behemoth

But living in the mountains where it snows a lot might.

g) Using police vehicles of different sizes for different types of work as is the case in other countries

www.alreadyhappening.com

All countries feel the effects of rising oil, however the majority do pay more at the pumps than the US does in both forex and real terms. America has had it good until recently, but now China and India with their enormous populations are trading in their bicycles and rickshaws for Toyotas, that alone will have an ongoing enormous effect in global demand. Brushing it off as mere "speculating" isn't going to stop the reality of consuming what is, after all, a finite commodity.

Supply and demand have been steady this summer. Yet speculation on Wall Street and the drop in value of our currency has driven prices up by $1/gallon alone.

America has enough oil in North/South Dakota alone to become energy dependent for 20-40 years.

Sure, it's going to be tight. But oil companies are finding new sources every day. Now if they'd just stop screwing us over and actually do something about the 'new finds' we might not have as much of a problem.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Then carry on! Don't get me wrong, I'm a fanatical car enthusiast, but I'm more interested in making sure we don't hand our grandchildren a world decimated by our arrogance.

Innovating another fuel instead of forfeiting freedoms is arrogance.

And, FWIW I don't have grandchildren, never will and don't really care about anyone else's.

(Yep, I am arrogant)

[Guest aatbloke]

Europe was bombed into the Dark Ages 60 years ago; their 'changes' were forced upon them. Afterward, North America entered a period of lifestyle not seen since Roman times, and until the early '70s were virtually self-sufficient in all resources. (Actually, truth be told, if the borders closed tomorrow, North America would still be self-sufficient.)

Americans have the one of the lowest rates of possession of passports in the world. Look it up. I did. My parents dragged me all over Canada when I was a kid, as my sister is to hers now. Try dragging a 14' camper trailer, 4 boys, 2 dogs and 2 weeks worth of crap behind a Zafira. Her Silverado will do just fine.

Have you ever travelled to the Muskokas in Ontario or the Wisconsin Lakes? We have 25% of the world's fresh water and the lakes to prove it. Boat and cottage ownership is WAY higher over here than in Europe. There is going to be a lot of structural changes in our economy if oil exceeds $150 a barrel (which I don't think it will.) Nobody in my parent's generation flew anywhere - they drove. My mother has 2 condos in Florida and, you guessed it, she drives twice a year.

I am agreeing with you on the NEED for change, all I am saying is that it will take time and $5 a gallon isn't it - not yet anyway. Canada is already at $5.50 a gallon and $4 was our mainstay for a couple years.

But all of this is hype whipped up by the media anyway. Oil will come down, not to $50 again, but it will come down.

While it is true Europe changed drastically in the years following WW2, driving behaviour and expectations have changed here since the oil crisis of the 1970s. The modern small hatchback began appearing in the mid 1970s and the genre has mushroomed since to become the biggest-selling type of car.

I'm aware that Americans have one of the lowest rates of passport possessions. The truth is many don't even go away on an annual vacation, because on average they get such low amounts of vacation time. It's common there - even in an office job - to begin employment with no paid annual leave whatsoever; the EU by contrast has a mandated four weeks off the bat for any full-time position.

Please post your sources as to cottage and boat ownership; many Europeans - Brits in particular - own holiday homes, whether it be in their own country or abroad. France, Spain, Wales, Scotland, the Balearics, Greece and Florida are all popular locations for Europeans to own vacation property.

I myself don't listen to media hype - however I am interested in economic movement. The rapidly growing economies of China and India have changed the way oil futures are driven in recent years; China alone has built the world's second-longest motorway system in less than a decade. In Europe, it has long been the case that if you really do have to take your entire home with you on holiday replete with boats, surfboards, eight kids, the grandmother and enough supplies to last a nuclear winter so you can drive to central Scandinavia, then the vehicles available to accommodate this are at the behest of the most wealthy; the rest of us use accommodation which already contains the necessities needed or we just fly on a package holiday - Europe's budget airlines have proliferated over the past twenty years and now ensure that it's cheaper (and quicker) to fly than drive.

Ultimately, crude oil is a finite global supply. As demand exceeds the tapping of new sources and supply, the cost will mushroom. North America and Western Europe now have less influence over demand than they used to. In countries where fuel economy has for many years been a priority with the motoring public, increasing fuel costs will hurt more and create the need to modify driving behaviours. In countries where fuel economy has traditionally barely registered, the increases will be extraordinarily painful indeed and the necessary behavioural changes far more dramatic as a result.

[Guest aatbloke]

Obviously, you don't live here if you think that $6-7/gallon won't DEVASTATE (With a capital D) our economy.

If Europeans can do it, Americans certainly can. What's required are changes in approac to the automobile.

And why should I have to change for the sake of other countries?

Nobody's telling you to change. Economic movement doesn't care where anyone lives.

Anything that I can compare the size of a Coke bottle to is not a large engine.

It's all a case of perspective. Some countries have subsidised healthcare instead of fuel over the years - and for them, the change in prices hasn't been as great. Over the past seven years, US retail petrol prices have increased virtually 200%, whereas those in France have increased just 80%.

Which would take YEARS and BILLIONS that we won't have if gas continues to go up.

Again, it depends on the foresight of governments. The UK dismantled most of its public tram systems in the 50's and 60's, while many continental Europeans kept theirs, constantly modernising them. In the past twenty years, British governments have been quickly rebuilding what they recently dismantled when they realised the (Germans, for example) had an effective mass transportation system in many cities which was less reliant on the internal combustion engine.

I have a truck, V8 and all.

I'm not at all surprised.

It certainly isn't "a waste" most of the time when I'm hauling farm equipment, or a camper, or classic cars, or livestock.

I've spent long enough in the States to know that such lifestyles encompass similar percentages of the American population as they do in Europe.

Limiting freedom. I know, I know, it is my duty as a member of this "global economy" to exist merely by working and sleeping alone. (Much sarcasm implied)

Many, many Americans have horrific levels of personal debt. The sheer number of commercials on television and in newspapers there ranging from car dealerships "guaranteeing" credit to those with bad credit, to firms of lawyers offering arrangements for individuals to climb out of debt, is simply astonishing. That kind of lifestyle limits "freedom" far more readily than increases in fuel prices.

That's fine if you live in the city, which a WHOLE LOT of americans don't. Not to mention, with my size, carpooling isn't always an option. that doesn't even take into consideration differing schedules and the like.

But living in the mountains where it snows a lot might.

Carpooling isn't always an option - I never said it was. Nor is it an option for everybody. Indeed, it's a problem to encourage people to do it here too because nobody wants to give up their right to transport themselves. While many Americans don't live in cities, an overwhelming number do. For those in urban areas it can make a huge difference to personal wealth and productivity. Again, it boils down to thinking about others you share your country (and world) with, as opposed to oneself.

Supply and demand have been steady this summer. Yet speculation on Wall Street and the drop in value of our currency has driven prices up by $1/gallon alone.

Speculative movement has driven prices up, but global demand is driving prices up higher.

America has enough oil in North/South Dakota alone to become energy dependent for 20-40 years.

Sure, it's going to be tight. But oil companies are finding new sources every day. Now if they'd just stop screwing us over and actually do something about the 'new finds' we might not have as much of a problem.

I hear stories such as this and if the US is serious about it, it would surely tap such reserves. After all, it had no trouble invading Iraq over far more sketchy and subjective information. But avarice for oil is only part of the issue - it's important to utilise alternative, cleaner energy sources.

[Guest aatbloke]

Innovating another fuel instead of forfeiting freedoms is arrogance.

And, FWIW I don't have grandchildren, never will and don't really care about anyone else's.

(Yep, I am arrogant)

Then I can safely say you and I would not have a great deal in common!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If Europeans can do it, Americans certainly can. What's required are changes in approac to the automobile.

Europe is not america. Different geography, different mentality.

Nobody's telling you to change. Economic movement doesn't care where anyone lives.

My standard of living is decreasing because of OTHER countries. Because people in India can't use birth control, I now have to eat less. Because people in China can't pay attention to the environment, I have to use less resources/drive a $h!ty car. (China builds a NEW dirty coal power plant EVERY 6 DAYS! How's that for global warming?) Because people in Mexico work cheaper, I no longer have a good paying job. I, as an american (as the number 1 country in the world) am seeing a decreased standard of living because of other countries. I never wanted to be a part of the global two tier society (and neither did MOST people here) because it does not benefit me. And ultimately, like it or not, as human beings all EVERYONE ultimately exists for is BETTERING themselves. We were FORCED into this global society by capitalists controlling our economy and other countries striving for OUR lifestyle (which they have now stolen)

And sure, it isn't fair. But, nothing is fair in life and america fought it's way to being the best.

Again, it depends on the foresight of governments.

Do you KNOW anything about our government? LOL.

The UK dismantled most of its public tram systems in the 50's and 60's, while many continental Europeans kept theirs, constantly modernising them. In the pasttwenty years, British governments have been quickly rebuilding what they recently dismantled

Gas has increased 200% in the last 4 years and you think we have 20 years to build a mass transit system?

Many, many Americans have horrific levels of personal debt. The sheer number of commercials on television and in newspapers there ranging from car dealerships "guaranteeing" credit to those with bad credit, to firms of lawyers offering arrangements for individuals to climb out of debt, is simply astonishing. That kind of lifestyle limits "freedom" far more readily than increases in fuel prices.

There are certain things that we cannot get around here, such as geography.

Carpooling isn't always an option - I never said it was. Nor is it an option for everybody. Indeed, it's a problem to encourage people to do it here too because nobody wants to give up their right to transport themselves. While many Americans don't live in cities, an overwhelming number do. For those in urban areas it can make a huge difference to personal wealth and productivity. Again, it boils down to thinking about others you share your country (and world) with, as opposed to oneself.

Why should I?

Why should I care anything about people that I don't know, have never seen and people that I already hate for stealing my lifestyle?

Of course, I see your point. But I'm playing devils advocate because this is how a lot of americans feel. And I'll admit, that while my feelings aren't as severe as I make them sound, I do feel that way.

[Satty]

People who life selfishly rarely live happily.

[Robert Hall]

Obviously, you don't live here if you think that $6-7/gallon won't DEVASTATE (With a capital D) our economy.

And why should I have to change for the sake of other countries?

Anything that I can compare the size of a Coke bottle to is not a large engine.

Which would take YEARS and BILLIONS that we won't have if gas continues to go up.

The US government has spent the last 6 years pissing away billions (trillions?) of dollars on pointless wars when they could have been investing in our infrastructure....the priorities of the current regime are so screwed up that it's unbelievable.

[Robert Hall]

Europe is not america. Different geography, different mentality.

My standard of living is decreasing because of OTHER countries. Because people in India can't use birth control, I now have to eat less. Because people in China can't pay attention to the environment, I have to use less resources/drive a $h!ty car. (China builds a NEW dirty coal power plant EVERY 6 DAYS! How's that for global warming?) Because people in Mexico work cheaper, I no longer have a good paying job.

You make yourself sound like a whining child, not able to accept responsibility for your own choices. How would cheap workers in Mexico impact your job? Blaming the world for your own problems is no way to live life.

Edited June 8, 2008 by moltar

[Camino LS6]

I'm with FOG, I have no desire to pursue the false goal of "fairness for everyone".

Life isn't, has never been, and will never be, "fair".

Freedom is far more important than the lowest-common-denominator of the "common good".

All of these arguments are moot anyway, in the sense that conservation of oil resources will never solve the problem - only a diversified and steady fuel supply can do that.

To expect any human to be happy with a decreased standard of living is to ignore human nature entirely.

If sacrifice and acceptance are the strategies you use when facing a challenge, you have already surrendered and thus, have lost!.

Innovation and creative thinking as well as some serious reform in certain regulatory practices is where we will find solutions.

Adopting a surrender mentality is to invite failure as a result.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm with moltar, all this whine and no cheese. :rotflmao:

[daves87rs]

I'm with moltar, all this whine and no cheese. :rotflmao:

Yep.

Speaking of whining (quite a few pages of that), I see a missing point here-

Why can't pontiac have a little of everything?

Oh, I forgot, since Pontiac isn't going to have a line up of GTOs and RWD cars, there is just no point to them then.

Why can't a G8 share a showroom floor with a G3?

Why can't a fwd G6 and a G5 pay to bring us a few overseas goodies?

While I don't want to sound mean, you guys get my point.

Pontiac needs a few cars to help pay the bills..and the more bills paid, the better chance that we might to get to enjoy some V8 goodies before CAFE goes really crazy........

While I would like to see Pontiac as a performance brand, in these new times, that is not going to happen any more...

The one thing that I do like is that GM's new platforms will allow them to offer a little more personality in their cars...

So they won't just be some simple 90s rebadge......

[Drew Dowdell]

Imagine if instead of spending 3 trillion dollars on the Iraq war we had:

1. Fully funded, no, OVER funded Amtrak to redevelop itself into a system with an infrastructure that would make the Germans, French and Japanese envious? The reduction in petroleum used for airlines and cars would be huge.

2. Executed a MASSIVE deployment of wind energy across the nation. A recently approved wind farm project is supposed to cost $450 million and produce enough energy to power 100,000 homes. Extrapolate it out, and a $3 trillion wind farm project would power 660 million homes.

3. Offered 100% rebates to homeowners to install alternative energy on their homes, be it solar, wind, or geothermal.

4. Built 100 BioButanol plants throughout the US <assumes a very expensive $3 billion each>. BioButanol is a drop in replacement for gasoline.

[Camino LS6]

Imagine if instead of spending 3 trillion dollars on the Iraq war we had:

1. Fully funded, no, OVER funded Amtrak to redevelop itself into a system with an infrastructure that would make the Germans, French and Japanese envious? The reduction in petroleum used for airlines and cars would be huge.

2. Executed a MASSIVE deployment of wind energy across the nation. A recently approved wind farm project is supposed to cost $450 million and produce enough energy to power 100,000 homes. Extrapolate it out, and a $3 trillion wind farm project would power 660 million homes.

3. Offered 100% rebates to homeowners to install alternative energy on their homes, be it solar, wind, or geothermal.

4. Built 100 BioButanol plants throughout the US <assumes a very expensive $3 billion each>. BioButanol is a drop in replacement for gasoline.

This is the sort of thinking required!

[Drew Dowdell]

This is the sort of thinking required!

I'll get painted as a tax and spend liberal for wanting any of these projects though.... because I'd refuse to allow any of these projects to continue without tax increases or budget cuts to pay for it.

My favorite tax and spend liberal was Eisenhower. He was the champion of the Eisenhower interstate system, a domestic spending, liberal, lifelong democrat.......

oh.... wait...

[CARBIZ]

Don't forget the billions America spends 'defending' Taiwan, Phillipines and Japan: money that could have been spent on paying off the national debt or bailing out the current homeowners who are losing their homes. Japan gets a free ride on so many issues. I say, let Japan re-arm and fend for itself against the resurgent Chinese.

There are so many countries who act duplitiously toward America, yet they are the first to come crying when they have an earthquake/volcano or someone else invades them! They are only too eager to let the U.S. foot the bill.

We should not be mirroring what Europe is doing. Within 2 decades Europe is going to collapse under the weight of its own hand-wringing, self-hating political correctness. The riots in the suburbs of Paris are only the beginning.

We in North America need to forge our own destiny.

[PurdueGuy]

or bailing out the current homeowners who are losing their homes.

There's a LOT of things the gov't needs to do before handing out money to people who got loans they couldn't afford (though they do need to kick some financial companies' butts for deceiving people, too).

[Drew Dowdell]

There's a LOT of things the gov't needs to do before handing out money to people who got loans they couldn't afford (though they do need to kick some financial companies' butts for deceiving people, too).

exactly... it would actually cause fairly rapid inflation because it would prop up housing prices in ranges they have no place being and just start the whole cycle all over again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

People who life selfishly rarely live happily.

I'm not selfish. Don't pretend that you know me based on a blog persona that I built.

And secondly, I seem to be living just fine.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You make yourself sound like a whining child, not able to accept responsibility for your own choices. How would cheap workers in Mexico impact your job? Blaming the world for your own problems is no way to live life.

I don't want this to sound mean, because I like you a lot moltar, but here goes:

You people don't understand because you have never lived in a community based on manufacturing. The south was, and still is devastated because of the global economy started by the democrats and their pet NAFTA. I don't work in a mill (although I do live in one ) and I'll do just fine since I've taken enough 'responsibility for myself' to earn 3 degrees. From what I've gathered, you're in the tech industry and you come from a well funded family. Therefore, you will never understand because you have never tasted the desperation that I have at some points in my life.

People here call me selfish for wanting to be able to live and see my hometown prosper or even survive at the expense of other countries. Do you guys honestly think that a small town in China or Mexico is thinking and spewing this same crap about selfishness and helping other countries? Hell, the Canadians are crying louder than anyone right now becuse GM is closing a plant that produces products that aren't selling. And GM is even offering to RELOCATE all of the employees.

I think it's your lifestyle that is selfish because you guys are the people that often refuse to buy american and couldn't care less about people like me who depend/depended on manufacturing for our survival. But all is well in your townhome in the city and that's all that counts, right?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm with FOG, I have no desire to pursue the false goal of "fairness for everyone".

Life isn't, has never been, and will never be, "fair".

Exactly... I'm all for fairness for everyone, but it never turns out that way. America has been getting screwed by various countries around the world for 30 years now, and we, with our RAPIDLY declining standard of living, are supposed to view that as fair

What's sad is that 70% of our population, including the government, is either too blind or self-centered to care.

To expect any human to be happy with a decreased standard of living is to ignore human nature entirely.

Human nature is to be better than your competition. And that will continue despite our american populations wish for utopia and ignorance to the economic war we are engaged in. China and India are coming on strong and they don't give a sh*t if they're benefit is 'fair' to us or not. I hope most americans realize that before it's too late, but I fear they will not.

If sacrifice and acceptance are the strategies you use when facing a challenge, you have already surrendered and thus, have lost!.

Spot on.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think it's your lifestyle that is selfish because you guys are the people that often refuse to buy american and couldn't care less about people like me who depend/depended on manufacturing for our survival. But all is well in your townhome in the city and that's all that counts, right?

QFT.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm with moltar, all this whine and no cheese. :rotflmao:

Well, you live in Europe most of the time and you're old... So, it's not like it matters much to you.

[CSpec]

FOG, it is selfish because you would like development in your area that clearly is not suited to it, at the expense of everyone else. The manufacturing moved because there was a better place for it. Keeping it static just for the sake of keeping it static hurts everyone who could have benefited from the lower priced products produced in the new location, which more than offsets the "gains" from the small local population.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Why can't pontiac have a little of everything?

That's fine... But according to GM, there is no room for Pontiac to have a little bit of everything. That's Chevrolets job.

Why can't a G8 share a showroom floor with a G3?

I know.. Why can't it? (Because we all know the G8 will be phased out soon enough)

Why can't a fwd G6 and a G5 pay to bring us a few overseas goodies?

I know... Why can't they? Oh yeah, I forgot... Because according to GM, that's Saturns place.

While I would like to see Pontiac as a performance brand, in these new times, that is not going to happen any more...

But it still can. Performance doesn't just equal Zeta or RWD. I just want GM to focus the division and not eliminate it or starve it.

So they won't just be some simple 90s rebadge......

Oh really?

Notice how the new Saturn Aura has the same face as the new Chevy Malibu? Notice how the new Buick Lacrosse has the exact same interior as the forthcoming Saturn Aura? It'll be a case of SSDD from GM. (Same sh*t, different decade)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

There are so many countries who act duplitiously toward America, yet they are the first to come crying when they have an earthquake/volcano or someone else invades them! They are only too eager to let the U.S. foot the bill.

And THIS is one reason why I'm so "selfish"

We should not be mirroring what Europe is doing. Within 2 decades Europe is going to collapse under the weight of its own hand-wringing, self-hating political correctness. The riots in the suburbs of Paris are only the beginning.

I bet america collapses first.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The manufacturing moved because there was a better place for it.

The manufacturing moved because the capitalists at the top and the 'advisors' on Wall Street found a way to make MORE money.

Do you honestly think that paying a mexican $12/hour to assemble cars is any better? If that were the case, then why are people jumping the border and getting better paying SERVICE (capitalized because by in large service jobs have horrible pay, especially when compared to manufacturing) jobs here?

Keeping it static just for the sake of keeping it static hurts everyone who could have benefited from the lower priced products produced in the new location, which more than offsets the "gains" from the small local population.

Is the average american in better shape now than his or her mother and father in the 60s?

SOCIOLOGICAL FACT: My generation is the FIRST generation in the history of america to NOT surpass the previous generation in wealth and standard of living. So, thanks to our 'selling out' over the last 30 years, I can never expect to have the standard of living that my parents enjoyed. How's that for "gains"

[Drew Dowdell]

FOG, it is selfish because you would like development in your area that clearly is not suited to it, at the expense of everyone else. The manufacturing moved because there was a better place for it. Keeping it static just for the sake of keeping it static hurts everyone who could have benefited from the lower priced products produced in the new location, which more than offsets the "gains" from the small local population.

Better for whom? Upper management? Sure.

Lower prices for us? Not so much.

Prices have remained fairly constant, yet management's salaries has exploded upward with the offshoring movement.

I used to work for a textile company. When we off shored part of our production, we didn't reduce prices much... maybe 10 cents per unit. The owners of the company just took a much larger profit. Those of us not involved with manufacturing who were still around didn't get any raises and the factory workers mostly got laid off. After the first year of Chinese outsourcing, we got $200 bonuses for Xmas. The owner of the company pulled ahead his S-class lease for a new one.

[Robert Hall]

I don't want this to sound mean, because I like you a lot moltar, but here goes:

You people don't understand because you have never lived in a community based on manufacturing.

No offense taken..I probably came off sounding like a pr!ck...

I lived in the Pittsburgh area (Steubenville, Ohio) in the '70s/80s and in the Cleveland area in the late '80s-early '90s..I have seen the results of deindustrialization first hand---the decline of the steel industry, the decline of coal mining. The key thing I learned is you don't stay around expecting the jobs to come back--you have to go where they are. After grad school, I got the hell out of the Midwest and went to where the high tech jobs are(Go West, young man, as Horace Greeley said).

I truly wonder if manufacturing will ever come back to the Rust Belt, even at 1/10th of what it used to be...I kind of doubt it.

I think it's your lifestyle that is selfish because you guys are the people that often refuse to buy american

True enough..amongst my friends and peers, I'm the token American car fan---all my friends and peers buy Japanese or German...

Edited June 9, 2008 by moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

globalization is just code for ''averaging wealth globally''.... since we are the wealthiest nation, that automatically means we lose.

[LosAngeles]

May as well expend my 1000th post here.

A Mini style Pontiac (FWD and all) would do wonders for the brands image.

Yeah, the Corsa could have fit that bill smashingly. Call it Firefly in Canada or across all Poncho markets. Ain't like it's already planned for Saturn....or is it?

Edited June 22, 2008 by LosAngeles

[PurdueGuy]

May as well expend my 1000th post here.

Yeah, the Corsa could have fit that bill smashingly. Call it Firefly in Canada or across all Poncho markets. Ain't like it's already planned for Saturn....or is it?

About a year ago, GM stated that they will not bring the current gen Corsa here, because it would require a lot of investment to make it meet various US specs. Instead, they will put the money toward developing the next gen from the start to be US compatible, and Saturn will get it. Not that GM can't change their mind about any or every one of those decisions.

[gm4life]

I think LA is right.

[MyerShift]

The "character, attitude, and soul" of a Pontiac boils down to the nostrils grille and the red instrumentation. The mass of car buyers would not miss Pontiac if it went away just like they haven't missed Oldsmobile, Plymouth, GEO, AMC/Eagle.

I don't think the mass of car buyers would miss ANY brand if it disappeared.

Also, the G3 idea sucks.

Opel Corsa for the States baby!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ja, Opel ist wunderbar!

[Camino LS6]

I'm so sick of hearing about Opel/Saturn, they are cars I just can't care about.

Give me some good Pontiacs instead, please.

[The O.C.]

About a year ago, GM stated that they will not bring the current gen Corsa here, because it would require a lot of investment to make it meet various US specs. Instead, they will put the money toward developing the next gen from the start to be US compatible, and Saturn will get it. Not that GM can't change their mind about any or every one of those decisions.

While you are most likely correct.....the real problem with GM is.....that when developing the current generation Corsa, way back when, they should have had the foresight (or the innovative thinking) to develop the current gen Corsa to be sold over here.

Because of their slow wittedness, they will be, once again, late to the game in a burgeoning market segment here at home instead of leading the pack!

Same issue with only now getting the Astra......

[prinzSD]

Don't forget the billions America spends 'defending' Taiwan, Phillipines and Japan: money that could have been spent on paying off the national debt or bailing out the current homeowners who are losing their homes. Japan gets a free ride on so many issues. I say, let Japan re-arm and fend for itself against the resurgent Chinese.

There are so many countries who act duplitiously toward America, yet they are the first to come crying when they have an earthquake/volcano or someone else invades them! They are only too eager to let the U.S. foot the bill.

We should not be mirroring what Europe is doing. Within 2 decades Europe is going to collapse under the weight of its own hand-wringing, self-hating political correctness. The riots in the suburbs of Paris are only the beginning.

We in North America need to forge our own destiny.

Amen.

Rant ON:

I had a "collegue" from Europe give me &#036;h&#33; about how the US government response to Katrina was slow and ineffective. I agreed with him. However, when I gave him &#036;h&#33; about the Paris riots, he made all sorts of PC comments about it. Perhaps I goaded him with my email entitled "Paris is Burning" after an old Dokken song. The Europeans have thier Eurocentric views of the world, we have our own American"centric" view points. We should agree to agree we are different and never will be the exact same, but work together on where we do agree. Lets start by letting Europe and Asia spend their own GNP on their own defense, so we can take that money saved to help our ailing country. And I am speaking as a former Canadian who became a U.S. citizen of this GREATEAST country in the world, who has parents who immigrated to Canada from Italy and Sicily. It is time the US start taking of it's own and let others take care of themselves. Now we are proposing to put missiles in the Chech republic (in the process alarming Russia) as a counter to possible missile threats from Iran. To hell with Europe, let them defend themselves. All my relatives in Italy and France need to defend themselves, if they can't afford it, then their great socialist societies can levy more taxes while workers demand less work hours per week. Rant OFF.

edited for clarity...sort of.

Edited August 1, 2008 by prinzSD

[The O.C.]

Drove by the local BPG dealer here in Las Vegas last week......and saw.....ta-daaaa......a G3 5-door being unloaded from a car carrier......