G3 Coming?

[PurdueGuy]

I've read a lot of comments about rebadging the Corsa VXR as a G3, but given its pricing point and the fact it isn't certified for North American sale I can't see it either being prepared for federalisation given the life of the current model, or selling particularly well in the States once it arrived.

An Aveo-based model makes more fiscal business sense, although in keeping with Pontiac's sporting image they should have concentrated on the 3-door Aveo instead and shod it with the forthcoming 1.4 litre turbocharged Opel unit due also to be used in North America.

We already pretty much now the plans for the Corsa - it won't come to the US until the next gen. Saturn is fully expected to get it, not that that can't change, or that a restyled version couldn't go to another division.

I'm not suggesting that the G3 in this particular reiteration is the best move, but the principle makes sound business sense. If Pontiac must use the Kalos/Aveo as a basis, then at least use the 3-door shell and give it the forthcoming 1400cc turbo. That said, the Corsa VXR would be a better basis in terms of a performance-oriented vehicle, but the expense in federalising the current car would probably outweigh the benefits.

Wow... I... I agree with you. Yikes! lol The problem isn't that Pontiac is getting a small, fuel-efficient car - the problem is that it has pretty much no differentiation from the Chevy version, and it becomes the 80's all over again. With a little performance enhancement, the Pontiac would be better differentiated, and at least be a little closer to what Pontiac should be, and I would be ok with it (even if not likely to buy one).

[Guest aatbloke]

That's what I was getting at earlier - GM have already indicated that North America will get the Corsa, but not until the next-gen model appears in 2011.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I've read a lot of comments about rebadging the Corsa VXR as a G3, but given its pricing point and the fact it isn't certified for North American sale I can't see it either being prepared for federalisation given the life of the current model, or selling particularly well in the States once it arrived.

An Aveo-based model makes more fiscal business sense, although in keeping with Pontiac's sporting image they should have concentrated on the 3-door Aveo instead and shod it with the forthcoming 1.4 litre turbocharged Opel unit due also to be used in North America.

It's not going to be the Corsa.

[Guest aatbloke]

It's not going to be the Corsa.

No, it isn't. What I am saying is that in terms of B-segment hatchbacks, the Corsa VXR would better suit Pontiac's image.

[regfootball]

vibes, g3's, g5's needed to keep BPG doors open.

[GMTruckGuy74]

vibes, g3's, g5's needed to keep BPG doors open.

Then why hasn't the Pontiac G5 Sedan made a presence yet? The wife is *now* considering a smaller, 4 cyl-equipped 4-door car when the Envoy lease is up in August. I prefer the G5 styling over the Cobalt, and would like to continue doing business with a B-P-G dealership over a Chevy store. But all they offer is the 2-door coupe, which is not very practical for my family hauling needs. Seeing as how the sedan is already being made, why hasn't it been included in the lineup yet?

[buyacargetacheck]

A Pontiac G6 4-cyl auto gets 22/30 while the smaller Cobalt 4-door auto gets 22/31. Pathetic but true. If your wife can afford a G6 there's no fuel economy downside to your PBG dealer not offering a 4-door G5.

Then why hasn't the Pontiac G5 Sedan made a presence yet? The wife is *now* considering a smaller, 4 cyl-equipped 4-door car when the Envoy lease is up in August. I prefer the G5 styling over the Cobalt, and would like to continue doing business with a B-P-G dealership over a Chevy store. But all they offer is the 2-door coupe, which is not very practical for my family hauling needs. Seeing as how the sedan is already being made, why hasn't it been included in the lineup yet?

[regfootball]

Then why hasn't the Pontiac G5 Sedan made a presence yet? The wife is *now* considering a smaller, 4 cyl-equipped 4-door car when the Envoy lease is up in August. I prefer the G5 styling over the Cobalt, and would like to continue doing business with a B-P-G dealership over a Chevy store. But all they offer is the 2-door coupe, which is not very practical for my family hauling needs. Seeing as how the sedan is already being made, why hasn't it been included in the lineup yet?

agree 1000%

[michaelv13]

New Slogan

Pontiac is a Joke

[Oracle of Delphi]

Then why hasn't the Pontiac G5 Sedan made a presence yet? The wife is *now* considering a smaller, 4 cyl-equipped 4-door car when the Envoy lease is up in August. I prefer the G5 styling over the Cobalt, and would like to continue doing business with a B-P-G dealership over a Chevy store. But all they offer is the 2-door coupe, which is not very practical for my family hauling needs. Seeing as how the sedan is already being made, why hasn't it been included in the lineup yet?

That was never in the plan.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Once you're paying $6+ the idea might not seem as moronic as you currently think. Most ordinary people in the developed world consider a 2.0 litre engine quite large, and sooner or later this mentality will have to be adopted in North America - or face economic doom.

Nah...

Hopefully we'll do like we used to do and innovate our way out of it. (Alternative fuels, etc.)

I must say though, I've warmed up to the idea of this. As long as it's a bit sporty, it's not a complete clone of the Aveo and I can still have my G8 in the showroom, why not?

It might just be moves like this that will save Pontiac.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

No, I remember the Iron Duke, the last Pontiac-engineered engine, quite well. Do you? Now, that's what you call Pontiac Excitement!

And that one sentence sums up your thoughts on the division, as well as explaining why YOU think it should be phased out.

Bias; isn't it a wonderful thing?

[Satty]

I'll say it again, a Mini-style Pontiac would do wonders for the brand. Other than size, does anybody have any complaint about the Mini? I haven't heard any. They do, however, garner universal praise for their handling and performance. So why the hell not? Just DO IT RIGHT!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Once you're paying $6+ the idea might not seem as moronic as you currently think. Most ordinary people in the developed world consider a 2.0 litre engine quite large, and sooner or later this mentality will have to be adopted in North America - or face economic doom.

And why would that ever happen?

Supply? Not yet... Prices are up because of speculation and the tanking dollar.

Other countries? What, the same countries that buy their oil in american currency and thus will feel the same effects as us, except probably worse.

Oil companies? They'll be taken down, soon enough.

Our economy? Our economy will collapse LOOONG before $6-$7 per gallon.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'll say it again, a Mini-style Pontiac would do wonders for the brand. Other than size, does anybody have any complaint about the Mini? I haven't heard any. They do, however, garner universal praise for their handling and performance. So why the hell not? Just DO IT RIGHT!

I'd LOVE to see a Mini fighter(s) in the Pontiac showroom. I think most here are just opposed to a re-badged Aveo.

But if this is indeed the 'next generation' that has been moved up, then there is no reason why it shouldn't be a re-badged Aveo unless GM is just lazy.

[Blake Noble]

I think most here are just opposed to a re-badged Aveo.

Exactly.

I have nothing against an Aveo-sized vehicle for Pontiac, as long as it fits the brand's mission and does not look like a mere rebadge of what you can buy from a nearby Chevrolet dealership. I understand that not everyone wants what I want, but that still does not justify a "quick fix" product for the brand that will ultimately be left alone. It needs to be Pontiac-unique and invested in when that time comes.

If GM will not do that for Pontiac, then just let the brand bow out on a positive note with the G8 and Solstice. If you will not do it right, then don't bother.

[ocnblu]

Is there some difference in structure between the 3- and 5-door Aveo? Why isn't the 3-door sold here? A 3-door G3 would suit Pontiac a tiny bit better than the 5-door, and it would ensure uniqueness for the arrowhead division. Sell the 5-door at Chevy and the 3-door at Pontiac, similar to the Cobalt/G5 scenario.

[cire]

Exactly.

I have nothing against an Aveo-sized vehicle for Pontiac, as long as it fits the brand's mission and does not look like a mere rebadge of what you can buy from a nearby Chevrolet dealership. I understand that not everyone wants what I want, but that still does not justify a "quick fix" product for the brand that will ultimately be left alone. It needs to be Pontiac-unique and invested in when that time comes.

If GM will not do that for Pontiac, then just let the brand bow out on a positive note with the G8 and Solstice. If you will not do it right, then don't bother.

I totally agree. I thought it was bad enough when the Cobalt cloned G5 appeared in Pontiac showrooms, but this has to be hands down the lamest move GM has ever made.

Saturn should have received the Corsa if GM wanted to add another subcompact vehicle to a division other than Chevrolet. At least that product fits in with Saturn's new image and position in the market (not that any of the advertising or marketing has clearly announced the division's new mission to the public).

I understand GM's desire to supply Pontiac with a subcompact vehicle, but this is not the way to do it if GM ever plans on making Pontiac truly relevant in the auto market again. Why not develop a 3-door/5-door vehicle on a modified Kappa platform that could seat 4 people (5 people would be a stretch for any subcompact vehicle, no matter whether it's FWD or RWD)? Wouldn't a turbocharged 1.4 liter engine work just as well in this application? The resulting product could be called Pontiac G1 and be marketed as an affordable alternative to the BMW 1-Series or as a Mini competitor.

I thought Pontiac was going to eventually be transformed into an affordable performance NICHE division that would provide the market with some alternatives to the mundane appliances that most of the market relies on to transport them on a daily basis? Except for the Solstice and G8, I really don't see that happening. With diesels, direct injection, turbocharging, hybrids, and other alternative fuel technologies being developed and utilized, you would think that GM could figure out how to give Pontiac a brand appropriate lineup of RWD vehicles that could still be fuel efficient yet somewhat sporty. The brand doesn't have to have a so called "gas guzzling V8" shoehorned into every vehicle it offers to give the brand an affordable performance aura. If the products are peppy, fun to drive, and supply the owner with an exalted sense of piloting something a little different and special, then Pontiac's brand mission would be fulfilled.

If Pontiac is just going to be a dumping ground for Chevy cloned products, then I say kill it now. The sad practice of slapping twin nostril grilles on Chevrolet products and passing them off as Pontiacs is pathetic and does nothing to elevate Pontiac's image above rental car queen division. I would rather see the division die a respectable death with the Solstice and G8, than to continue to exist on life support with a showroom full of twin nostriled Chevy clone products.

[Camino LS6]

I totally agree. I thought it was bad enough when the Cobalt cloned G5 appeared in Pontiac showrooms, but this has to be hands down the lamest move GM has ever made.

Saturn should have received the Corsa if GM wanted to add another subcompact vehicle to a division other than Chevrolet. At least that product fits in with Saturn's new image and position in the market (not that any of the advertising or marketing has clearly announced the division's new mission to the public).

I understand GM's desire to supply Pontiac with a subcompact vehicle, but this is not the way to do it if GM ever plans on making Pontiac truly relevant in the auto market again. Why not develop a 3-door/5-door vehicle on a modified Kappa platform that could seat 4 people (5 people would be a stretch for any subcompact vehicle, no matter whether it's FWD or RWD)? Wouldn't a turbocharged 1.4 liter engine work just as well in this application? The resulting product could be called Pontiac G1 and be marketed as an affordable alternative to the BMW 1-Series or as a Mini competitor.

I thought Pontiac was going to eventually be transformed into an affordable performance NICHE division that would provide the market with some alternatives to the mundane appliances that most of the market relies on to transport them on a daily basis? Except for the Solstice and G8, I really don't see that happening. With diesels, direct injection, turbocharging, hybrids, and other alternative fuel technologies being developed and utilized, you would think that GM could figure out how to give Pontiac a brand appropriate lineup of RWD vehicles that could still be fuel efficient yet somewhat sporty. The brand doesn't have to have a so called "gas guzzling V8" shoehorned into every vehicle it offers to give the brand an affordable performance aura. If the products are peppy, fun to drive, and supply the owner with an exalted sense of piloting something a little different and special, then Pontiac's brand mission would be fulfilled.

If Pontiac is just going to be a dumping ground for Chevy cloned products, then I say kill it now. The sad practice of slapping twin nostril grilles on Chevrolet products and passing them off as Pontiacs is pathetic and does nothing to elevate Pontiac's image above rental car queen division. I would rather see the division die a respectable death with the Solstice and G8, than to continue to exist on life support with a showroom full of twin nostriled Chevy clone products.

Agreed 100%

[Guest aatbloke]

And why would that ever happen?

Supply? Not yet... Prices are up because of speculation and the tanking dollar.

Other countries? What, the same countries that buy their oil in american currency and thus will feel the same effects as us, except probably worse.

Oil companies? They'll be taken down, soon enough.

Our economy? Our economy will collapse LOOONG before $6-$7 per gallon.

Why would it happen? For the same reason your average fuel prices have more than doubled in the past four years alone: global demand. The difference between this crisis and that on the 1970's is that today the USA has less influence over global demand. But the US economy can easily muster $6-$7 a gallon. What's required is a change in mindset and lifestyle as is the case in most other developed countries around the world, for example:

a) Realising that a 2.0 litre engine is actually quite large

b) Deregulating public transport and making it more widely accessible

c) Buying a vehicle that isn't a needless waste most of the time but handy for a once every three years trip to the DIY centre

d) Picking and choosing your journeys

e) Carpooling

f) Having a baby does not mean instantly running out and buying a 4 litre 4WD behemoth

g) Using police vehicles of different sizes for different types of work as is the case in other countries

All countries feel the effects of rising oil, however the majority do pay more at the pumps than the US does in both forex and real terms. America has had it good until recently, but now China and India with their enormous populations are trading in their bicycles and rickshaws for Toyotas, that alone will have an ongoing enormous effect in global demand. Brushing it off as mere "speculating" isn't going to stop the reality of consuming what is, after all, a finite commodity.

Edited June 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

Is there some difference in structure between the 3- and 5-door Aveo? Why isn't the 3-door sold here? A 3-door G3 would suit Pontiac a tiny bit better than the 5-door, and it would ensure uniqueness for the arrowhead division. Sell the 5-door at Chevy and the 3-door at Pontiac, similar to the Cobalt/G5 scenario.

No idea why GM decided not to sell the 3-door in North America. In Europe it was a late addition, arriving four years after the 5-door. Even so, I think this particular car wouldn't do that badly as base, entry-level Pontiac.

[Camino LS6]

Why would it happen? For the same reason your average fuel prices have more than doubled in the past four years alone: global demand. The difference between this crisis and that on the 1970's is that today the USA has less influence over global demand. But the US economy can easily muster $6-$7 a gallon. What's required is a change in mindset and lifestyle as is the case in most other developed countries around the world, for example:

a) Realising that a 2.0 litre engine is actually quite large

b) Deregulating public transport and making it more widely accessible

c) Buying a vehicle that isn't a needless waste most of the time but handy for a once every three years trip to the DIY centre

d) Picking and choosing your journeys

e) Carpooling

f) Having a baby does not mean instantly running out and buying a 4 litre 4WD behemoth

g) Using police vehicles of different sizes for different types of work as is the case in other countries

All countries feel the effects of rising oil, however the majority do pay more at the pumps than the US does in both forex and real terms. America has had it good until recently, but now China and India with their enormous populations are trading in their bicycles and rickshaws for Toyotas, that alone will have an ongoing enormous effect in global demand. Brushing ot off as mere "speculating" isn't going to stop the reality of consuming what is, after all, a finite commodity.

Ugh.

I will never surrender to such a bleak reality. That's just no way to live.

Time to get off our lazy butts and get alternative fuels in place.

The current "crisis" is all BS (speculation), but I hope it is incentive enough to finally start dumping oil as our only motor fuel.

That's the way to deal with this, buying tiny tin cans with micro engines is not.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ugh.

I will never surrender to such a bleak reality. That's just no way to live.

Time to get off our lazy butts and get alternative fuels in place.

The current "crisis" is all BS (speculation), but I hope it is incentive enough to finally start dumping oil as our only motor fuel.

That's the way to deal with this, buying tiny tin cans with micro engines is not.

Come on Camino, take my hand we can get on the SEPTA bus together. That reminds me, GM may be getting back into the bus business.

[Camino LS6]

Come on Camino, take my hand we can get on the SEPTA bus together. That reminds me, GM may be getting back into the bus business.

Not in this lifetime.

[Diehard GrandPrix Fan]

Then why hasn't the Pontiac G5 Sedan made a presence yet? The wife is *now* considering a smaller, 4 cyl-equipped 4-door car when the Envoy lease is up in August. I prefer the G5 styling over the Cobalt, and would like to continue doing business with a B-P-G dealership over a Chevy store. But all they offer is the 2-door coupe, which is not very practical for my family hauling needs. Seeing as how the sedan is already being made, why hasn't it been included in the lineup yet?

What's so different in styling of the G5 and the Cobalt? It's the same sh** with only the pontiac grille and the name tag. I don't see much difference between the 2 cars. I would rather go back in time when they had Sunfire and Cobalt, which, WERE the same car, but they were world different in terms of styling is concerned, even when there were Sunbirds(my very first car) and Cavalier, though they were pretty much identical cars, but they WEREN'T just a rebadge. The interior was completely different, and the front and back were completely different as well.

As for the G3, Haven't Pontiac learned from their mistakes of selling LeMans from Daewoo? which was like one of the WORST cars ever made that was a VERY slow seller that's a complete failure. I would rather have Azteks, or even a beat up T1000s over anything that is made by Daewoo nor Holden(Sorry, G8 fanboys, I just DON'T like imports) that gets sold as Pontiac. It's about time Pontiac pays its North American car designers and produce, REAL American cars, not relying their product designs on Toyota, Daewoo, and Holden(I know, I know, they are owned by GM, but still, they are NOT North American, they are still imports). I would really want to go back to the 90's, or even 80's when Pontiac had the cars like Fiero, Firebird, Grand Prix, and Bonneville. They DON'T need another re-badged Chevy, especially that is not even American, but an easily breakable garbage from Korea however well that is being sold in Canada. I don't think it will work well in US.

[Guest aatbloke]

Ugh.

I will never surrender to such a bleak reality. That's just no way to live.

Time to get off our lazy butts and get alternative fuels in place.

The current "crisis" is all BS (speculation), but I hope it is incentive enough to finally start dumping oil as our only motor fuel.

That's the way to deal with this, buying tiny tin cans with micro engines is not.

There's nothing bleak about it - and from what I saw over there, more people seemed unhappy with life there than I've witnessed anywhere else. The number of people there who seem to live on anti-depressants is staggering.

The gravy train has ended I'm afraid. Still, you can accept the reality of this world and change, or continue to bury your head in the sand. The latter will only result in even greater pain for you at the end of the day.

Edited June 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[wildcat]

The wife is *now* considering a smaller, 4 cyl-equipped 4-door car when the Envoy lease is up in August.

Can she and would she hang on until the stylish Buick Invicta comes out?

[Camino LS6]

There's nothing bleak about it - and from what I saw over there, more people seemed unhappy with life there than I've witnessed anywhere else. The number of people there who seem to live on anti-depressants is staggering.

The gravy train has ended I'm afraid. Still, you can accept the reality of this world and change, or continue to bury your head in the sand. The latter will only result in even greater pain for you at the end of the day.

Hardly.

I am quite sure that I will never have to resort to cars I don't like. Old cars make me happy, and there are plenty of recent cars I can live with as well. I'm quite sure I can make what I like last for the balance of my time on Earth.

[Guest aatbloke]

I would rather go back in time when they had Sunfire and Cobalt, which, WERE the same car, but they were world different in terms of styling is concerned, even when there were Sunbirds(my very first car) and Cavalier, though they were pretty much identical cars, but they WEREN'T just a rebadge. The interior was completely different, and the front and back were completely different as well.

Ah, the Sunfire and Cavalier - probably two of the worst-built cars I've ever had this misfortune of driving. Even an operations manager I spoke with at Lordstown admitted they were poorly made.

[Guest aatbloke]

Hardly.

I am quite sure that I will never have to resort to cars I don't like. Old cars make me happy, and there are plenty of recent cars I can live with as well. I'm quite sure I can make what I like last for the balance of my time on Earth.

Then carry on! Don't get me wrong, I'm a fanatical car enthusiast, but I'm more interested in making sure we don't hand our grandchildren a world decimated by our arrogance.

[Camino LS6]

Then carry on! Don't get me wrong, I'm a fanatical car enthusiast, but I'm more interested in making sure we don't hand our grandchildren a world decimated by our arrogance.

Thus the reason I constantly push for other fuels. You know, so we can hand them a better standard of living as opposed to a worse one.

Besides, I consider the rights of an individual to be more important than some least-common-denominator capitulation masquerading as the "greater good".

[Guest aatbloke]

Thus the reason I constantly push for other fuels. You know, so we can hand them a better standard of living as opposed to a worse one.

Besides, I consider the rights of an individual to be more important than some least-common-denominator capitulation masquerading as the "greater good".

Indeed, yet the average American is steeped in debt, works far longer hours than their European counterpart and takes comparatively a fraction of the annual vacation, suffers from astronomical medical expenses, one of the highest divorce rates in the world, and to cap it all their hard work and expenditure on keeping themselves healthy and sane has at best lead to an economy bouncing along the bottom of the barrel for the past decade.

Perhaps only thinking of oneself only isolates one further from that "greater good" after all.

Edited June 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

Or not.

[Blake Noble]

What's so different in styling of the G5 and the Cobalt? It's the same sh** with only the pontiac grille and the name tag. I don't see much difference between the 2 cars.

I won't argue here. Although, of course, this is what everyone capable of rational thought has been saying since the G5 was first introduced to this market.

I would rather go back in time when they had Sunfire and Cobalt, which, WERE the same car, but they were world different in terms of styling is concerned, even when there were Sunbirds(my very first car) and Cavalier, though they were pretty much identical cars, but they WEREN'T just a rebadge. The interior was completely different, and the front and back were completely different as well.

Ah, now this is where I will disagree with you. Going back to having things in this condition is, in reality, more of the same of what we have now with the G5 and Cobalt. So what if the old Sunbird had an unique interior? You could take one look at the exterior and tell it and the Cavalier were the same car. The Sunfire was better, yes, in its relation to its Chevrolet cousin upon its debut, but like the Sunbird that preceded it, it was car plagued with quality issues. It still wasn't what Pontiac really deserved.

As for the G3, Haven't Pontiac learned from their mistakes of selling LeMans from Daewoo? which was like one of the WORST cars ever made that was a VERY slow seller that's a complete failure. I would rather have Azteks, or even a beat up T1000s over anything that is made by Daewoo nor Holden(Sorry, G8 fanboys, I just DON'T like imports) that gets sold as Pontiac. It's about time Pontiac pays its North American car designers and produce, REAL American cars, not relying their product designs on Toyota, Daewoo, and Holden(I know, I know, they are owned by GM, but still, they are NOT North American, they are still imports). I would really want to go back to the 90's, or even 80's when Pontiac had the cars like Fiero, Firebird, Grand Prix, and Bonneville. They DON'T need another re-badged Chevy, especially that is not even American, but an easily breakable garbage from Korea however well that is being sold in Canada. I don't think it will work well in US.

GM is not just a North American company anymore. You have to see beyond that.

And as for your vision of Pontiac that emulates the brand's status from the 1980s or 1990s, I will give it a big thumbs down. If there is an era in Pontiac's history that should be emulated, it should be the era of the 1960s and the brief period of time in the early 1970s when the brand was really doing well. The 1980s and 1990s were largely nothing to write home about.

[z28luvr01]

I'll say it again, a Mini-style Pontiac would do wonders for the brand. Other than size, does anybody have any complaint about the Mini? I haven't heard any. They do, however, garner universal praise for their handling and performance. So why the hell not? Just DO IT RIGHT!

I wouldn't be adverse to that, but the Aveo/G3 is about as far from the Mini as East is from West.

[Camino LS6]

I wouldn't be adverse to that, but the Aveo/G3 is about as far from the Mini as East is from West.

QFT

And no one will buy it here.

And it will do yet more damage to Pontiac.

[Satty]

I wouldn't be adverse to that, but the Aveo/G3 is about as far from the Mini as East is from West.

Hence those 3 little words at the end. Do it right. The Mini Cooper needs to be the benchmark for a small Pontiac. Its all in the suspension. The Mini is a fun ride with 115hp, I hear its even a blast with the 90hp of the Mini One they had across the pond.

[Camino LS6]

Hence those 3 little words at the end. Do it right. The Mini Cooper needs to be the benchmark for a small Pontiac. Its all in the suspension. The Mini is a fun ride with 115hp, I hear its even a blast with the 90hp of the Mini One they had across the pond.

Write down this date, I agree with Satty!

[mustang84]

Indeed, yet the average American is steeped in debt, works far longer hours than their European counterpart and takes comparatively a fraction of the annual vacation, suffers from astronomical medical expenses, one of the highest divorce rates in the world, and to cap it all their hard work and expenditure on keeping themselves healthy and sane has at best lead to an economy bouncing along the bottom of the barrel for the past decade.

Perhaps only thinking of oneself only isolates one further from that "greater good" after all.

Gotta love the stereotypes.

Millions of Americans have mismanaged their lives. That doesn't mean that all of us are that way.

All that work has made us the most productive country in the world. I don't know about you, but I really enjoy my job, even when I'm there 50 hours a week. And when I was hourly, I made tons of overtime that helped me pay off a large portion of my school loans.

We aren't taxed as heavily as Europe. We may have high medical expenses, but they are offset by our low tax rates.

And despite gas prices quadrupling over the last nine years, our economy has grown every year since the last recession around 1990. Even with rising prices, collapsing markets, and a falling dollar, the US economy has grown by .5%. Not quite the doom and gloom plastered on TV by our lovely media.

As bad as the Bush administration has been, at least we aren't resorting to absurd proposals like carbon ration cards or putting cameras on every street corner. Some of the stuff that Britain and other European nations are proposing is downright authoritarian.

[Guest aatbloke]

Gotta love the stereotypes.

Millions of Americans have mismanaged their lives. That doesn't mean that all of us are that way.

All that work has made us the most productive country in the world. I don't know about you, but I really enjoy my job, even when I'm there 50 hours a week. And when I was hourly, I made tons of overtime that helped me pay off a large portion of my school loans.

We aren't taxed as heavily as Europe. We may have high medical expenses, but they are offset by our low tax rates.

And despite gas prices quadrupling over the last nine years, our economy has grown every year since the last recession around 1990. Even with rising prices, collapsing markets, and a falling dollar, the US economy has grown by .5%. Not quite the doom and gloom plastered on TV by our lovely media.

As bad as the Bush administration has been, at least we aren't resorting to absurd proposals like carbon ration cards or putting cameras on every street corner. Some of the stuff that Britain and other European nations are proposing is downright authoritarian.

I'm not "stereotyping". I lived there for the best part of a decade and I have family there. I'm commenting on what I saw during that time and what I heard from many ordinary people. I also said "average" and not "all."

I deal with international tax for a living. While the US generally has a federal income tax burden lower than most European countries - thanks to allowances, not tax rates - state and local income taxes increase the burden. In addition, the US has a higher capital taxation burden than many European countries. Indirect taxation burdens tend to be lower in most States, although some - notably New York - are bordering on those in Western Europe.

It's all very well thinking about yourself and your own particular successes - but that doesn't mean the same picture is painted nationally. The blunt truth of the matter is that the US economy has grown very marginally over the past decade - and it isn't enough to counter inflationary effects, for example. I did say that the US economy can handle high fuel prices, just as those in other developed countries do - it's just a case of changing habits to cope with those prices.

I don't know how much of Europe you've lived in - if any - but cameras have proved an invaluable resource to counter the problems of traffic congestion on a nationwide basis. Of course, there are those who complain about them but in reality, they're very cost-effective. Do you honestly think Western Europe is any more "authoritarian" than the US?

Edited June 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[CARBIZ]

Then why hasn't the Pontiac G5 Sedan made a presence yet? The wife is *now* considering a smaller, 4 cyl-equipped 4-door car when the Envoy lease is up in August. I prefer the G5 styling over the Cobalt, and would like to continue doing business with a B-P-G dealership over a Chevy store. But all they offer is the 2-door coupe, which is not very practical for my family hauling needs. Seeing as how the sedan is already being made, why hasn't it been included in the lineup yet?

Let her slip across the border and buy one up here. The Pontiac dealers up here managed to make a lot of noise to get 'fair' treatment with products, which is why Chevrolet as stand alone stores are closing in droves north of the border. Since Oldsmobile went away (they were always 'married' with Chevrolet up here), I have never understood why the P-B-GMC stores continued to get rebadged Chevrolet product that was not sold south of the border. Madness.

There has always been a Pursuit/G5 sedan up here. Lots of cheap ones available used, I am sure.

[CARBIZ]

What's so different in styling of the G5 and the Cobalt? It's the same sh** with only the pontiac grille and the name tag. I don't see much difference between the 2 cars. I would rather go back in time when they had Sunfire and Cobalt, which, WERE the same car, but they were world different in terms of styling is concerned, even when there were Sunbirds(my very first car) and Cavalier, though they were pretty much identical cars, but they WEREN'T just a rebadge. The interior was completely different, and the front and back were completely different as well.

As for the G3, Haven't Pontiac learned from their mistakes of selling LeMans from Daewoo? which was like one of the WORST cars ever made that was a VERY slow seller that's a complete failure. I would rather have Azteks, or even a beat up T1000s over anything that is made by Daewoo nor Holden(Sorry, G8 fanboys, I just DON'T like imports) that gets sold as Pontiac. It's about time Pontiac pays its North American car designers and produce, REAL American cars, not relying their product designs on Toyota, Daewoo, and Holden(I know, I know, they are owned by GM, but still, they are NOT North American, they are still imports). I would really want to go back to the 90's, or even 80's when Pontiac had the cars like Fiero, Firebird, Grand Prix, and Bonneville. They DON'T need another re-badged Chevy, especially that is not even American, but an easily breakable garbage from Korea however well that is being sold in Canada. I don't think it will work well in US.

While I agree wholeheartedly about he rebadging concerns, I take exception to the 'easily breakable garbage from Korea' remark. I bought a new Optra 5 11 months ago. I have put about 7,500 trouble free miles on it - and I can assure you, I beat on this car pretty hard. I treat the 2.0 litre engine like a 6 cylinder. I'm not overly enamored with the non-GM 4 spd automatic (you can tell it is not a GM tranny, believe me!) but this car has been a trooper. Other than 2 oil changes and a tire rotation (oh, an replacing the window because my car was broken into Monday morning ), this car has been great.

I have sold easily 100 Aveos by now and none of my customers have complained; in fact, a few have already leased their SECOND Aveo. Wait until you see the '09 improvements to the 5 door with the (finally) ecotec engine improvements.

This is not the Daewoo of 10 years ago. GM has had a lot of influence on the line since they bought it and each generation has distanced itself from its lowly Daewood DNA.

[Guest aatbloke]

While I agree wholeheartedly about he rebadging concerns, I take exception to the 'easily breakable garbage from Korea' remark.

I absolutely agree with you on this one. I put 30K trouble-free miles on my Aveo over two years whilst in the States across some pretty dire Ohio roads. It does have some serious shortcomings compared to modern superminis, but for the price and what I expected of it, it did its job flawlessly and is unbeatable value for money.

[CARBIZ]

God, strike me dead, I find myself agreeing with aatbloke.

We Canadians are trapped between America and Europe in so many ways. We are already sitting at $5.50 a gallon here.

I am a big believer in technology. I am currently engaged in a war of words with our city's mayor because he wants to tear down our only expressway into the city core. He thinks we would all be better on bicycles. Yeah, like that's going to happen in January when it it - 10 C for weeks on end! We don't have to go back to the horse and buggy, either. But certainly gone are the days of cheap oil, and unless we plan to spend 1/3 of our household income on energy costs, we have to start re-imagining things.

I remember my father cursing when gas jumped to 50 cents a gallon and it cost him $20 to fill his Chrysler 300. I remember all the doom and gloom of the late '70s. Guess what: we are all still here and we are all still driving infernal combustion engines. The 'truck bubble' of the late '90s is regrettable, but I guess Detroit found a way around CAFE and convinced many people that a 4,500 lb SUV was the only way to get to work. Otherwise, we probably would have fun to drive 45 mpg cars here, like they do in Europe.

Fortunately, GM seems to have a lot of efficient vehicles on the books. Let's hope they can get them to market quick enough to make up for the lost truck production. Already the Toyota Star is predicting GM will be gone from Canada soon because all they build here are gas guzzlers. Funny, no one complained when the Silverado and Impala were #1 in their segment and the over time checks were pouring in.

With the P-B-GMC amalgamation under way in the U.S., and with Lutz forcing GM to take advantage of their world wide experience and world wide production capacity, hopefully we can avoid the worst of the '80s rebadges.

I don't see why Pontiac needs the Aveo. It has the Vibe. Can the Vibe not be reconfigured to accept a 1.4 turbo, or something like that?

[Sixty8panther]

Pontiac is REBADGE

Saddly there is some truth to that. That was not

the case back in the chrome beak days.

[buyacargetacheck]

The Vibe doesn't need to be reconfigured because it already gets similar mileage to the smaller Aveo. The Vibe, however, is more car and therefore more expensive. Pontiac is probably getting the G3 for economic reasons (recession) as well as helping the GM fleet with CAFE.

I don't see why Pontiac needs the Aveo. It has the Vibe. Can the Vibe not be reconfigured to accept a 1.4 turbo, or something like that?

[CARBIZ]

The Vibe doesn't need to be reconfigured because it already gets similar mileage to the smaller Aveo. The Vibe, however, is more car and therefore more expensive. Pontiac is probably getting the G3 for economic reasons (recession) as well as helping the GM fleet with CAFE.

My point is that the Vibe is gutless, just like the Aveo. If GM were to drop a more 'high-tech' engine in the Vibe, it could get about the same mileage and perform better. Of course, it would probably be more expensive, but then Pontiac and Chev should not be competing on price anyway.

A rebadge is more than just a different grille insert. If Pontiac is going to survive south of the border, and Chevrolet survive in Canada (because most Pontiac/GMCs outsell their Chev counterparts), then they need to be differentiated by more than just a logo. Otherwise, what is the point of having Pontiac around, if they are just rebadged Chevs?

[PurdueGuy]

My point is that the Vibe is gutless, just like the Aveo. If GM were to drop a more 'high-tech' engine in the Vibe, it could get about the same mileage and perform better. Of course, it would probably be more expensive, but then Pontiac and Chev should not be competing on price anyway.

That would probably be easier (and more likely) if it were actually a GM vehicle...

[regfootball]

Why would it happen? For the same reason your average fuel prices have more than doubled in the past four years alone: global demand. The difference between this crisis and that on the 1970's is that today the USA has less influence over global demand. But the US economy can easily muster $6-$7 a gallon. What's required is a change in mindset and lifestyle as is the case in most other developed countries around the world, for example:

a) Realising that a 2.0 litre engine is actually quite large

ESPECIALLY SINCE A LARGE V8 CORVETTE WILL GET BETTER MPG ON TRIPS THAN A HIGH STRUNG 2.0L euro car.

b) Deregulating public transport and making it more widely accessible

RAISE TAXES TO RESTRICT PERSONAL FREEDOM, THE EUROPEAN WAY STRIKES AGAIN NO WONDER YOUR COUNTRIES NEVER EXPANDED THEIR REACH ON THE GLOBE

c) Buying a vehicle that isn't a needless waste most of the time but handy for a once every three years trip to the DIY centre

SO WE CAN ACTUALLY USE MORE GAS TO HAVE DELIVERY TRUCKS MAKE UP FOR OUR TRIPS AND WASTE ENERGY AND RESOURCES BUILDING CARS WE ARE FORCED TO BUY THAT DO NOT FIT REAL LIFESTYLES

d) Picking and choosing your journeys

BECAUSE OUR COUNTRY IS LARGE AND OFTEN WE HAVE RELATIVES THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY

e) Carpooling

EVERYBODYS SCHEDULE IN THIS COUNTRY VARIES WIDELY AND WE ARE SPREAD OUT, CARPOOLING IS NOT AS PRODUCTIVE AS EVEYRONE MAKES IT TO BE

f) Having a baby does not mean instantly running out and buying a 4 litre 4WD behemoth

IF YOU WANT TO TOW A BOAT OR HAVE ROOM FOR THE PACK AND PLAY, STROLLER, or frequently take several passengers on a ride AND SUCH LARGER VEHICLES ARE MORE USEFUL FOR PEOPLES LIFESTYLES

g) Using police vehicles of different sizes for different types of work as is the case in other countries

THERE IS ALREADY A WIDE VARIETY OF POLICE VEHICLES USED IN THIS COUNTRY

All countries feel the effects of rising oil, however the majority do pay more at the pumps than the US does in both forex and real terms. America has had it good until recently, but now China and India with their enormous populations are trading in their bicycles and rickshaws for Toyotas, that alone will have an ongoing enormous effect in global demand. Brushing it off as mere "speculating" isn't going to stop the reality of consuming what is, after all, a finite commodity.

the US aint europe. as per usual practice our quest for innovation solving problems will win out in the end rather than settling for lowest common denominator solutions

[Guest aatbloke]

ESPECIALLY SINCE A LARGE V8 CORVETTE WILL GET BETTER MPG ON TRIPS THAN A HIGH STRUNG 2.0L euro car.

Meanwhile, back on earth ...

RAISE TAXES TO RESTRICT PERSONAL FREEDOM, THE EUROPEAN WAY STRIKES AGAIN NO WONDER YOUR COUNTRIES NEVER EXPANDED THEIR REACH ON THE GLOBE

Not only don't you have a clue (obvious to any accountant) as to the tax burden of different countries, your lack of knowledge of history is unspeakable. No country in the world expanded the reach of the globe as much as Britain has over the course of history, as did France, as did Spain, as did Italy. Many ordinary Americans have enormous levels of personal debt - and debt restricts personal freedom more than any other monetary issue.

SO WE CAN ACTUALLY USE MORE GAS TO HAVE DELIVERY TRUCKS MAKE UP FOR OUR TRIPS AND WASTE ENERGY AND RESOURCES BUILDING CARS WE ARE FORCED TO BUY THAT DO NOT FIT REAL LIFESTYLES

Every developed country has delivery trucks, believe it or not!

BECAUSE OUR COUNTRY IS LARGE AND OFTEN WE HAVE RELATIVES THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY

Then fly. It takes far less time.

EVERYBODYS SCHEDULE IN THIS COUNTRY VARIES WIDELY AND WE ARE SPREAD OUT, CARPOOLING IS NOT AS PRODUCTIVE AS EVEYRONE MAKES IT TO BE

The average annual mileage per the IRS is 12-18K miles per annum - the same as western Europe. Commuting distances are comparable on both sides of the Atlantic. In cities, carpooling en masse not only cuts down commuting costs, it cuts down fuel demand, emissions and reduces traffic congestion and therefore saves businesses money. Productive enough.

IF YOU WANT TO TOW A BOAT OR HAVE ROOM FOR THE PACK AND PLAY, STROLLER, or frequently take several passengers on a ride AND SUCH LARGER VEHICLES ARE MORE USEFUL FOR PEOPLES LIFESTYLES

If you can afford a boat, you can afford mooring charges. Whatsmore, you use less fuel getting to where you want to sail it. The US lifestyle is no different to any other industrialised nation. It's strange that ordinary people in many other countries can take their kids for a ride in a Focus estate while throwing the pushchair in the back. Apart from all that, most SUVs often only ever carry one occupant.

THERE IS ALREADY A WIDE VARIETY OF POLICE VEHICLES USED IN THIS COUNTRY

V6 Impalas and V8 Crown Victorias are the staple fare. Plus the odd Camaro here and there, Ford Explorers - basically anything with a huge engine, even for urban work. All of these vehicles are major pollutants and uneconomical.

Staggering. Like I said, major change in mindset required otherwise things are going to get very painful at the pumps in the coming years - as one would expect.

Edited June 5, 2008 by aatbloke