G3 Coming?

[buyacargetacheck]

Looks like someone at GM is listening to me. Lutz tried to do the right thing by differentiating Pontiac as the performance brand, but the task isn't realistic given the lack of capital, state franchise laws, and the arrival of a permanent energy crisis among other headwinds. Pontiac will continue to be what it has been since starting in the 1970s: a Chevy clone with modified styling. At least until it finally fades away...

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...1023/LATESTNEWS

Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO DEAD

buyacargetacheck

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Find Member's Posts Posted on: Jan 20 2008, 10:21 PM

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I'm not Pontiac's biggest fan, but to be fair it could go another way:

As long as the PBG channel exists and the new CAFE regs hold up I don't see why GM couldn't make money selling fuel-efficient Vibes, Deltas and maybe a GMDAT small car in addition to the Solstice as an entry to Buick. Pontiac returns to its original roots and the performance pretension fades - basically Pontiac USA adopts Pontiac Canada's traditional positioning. Better yet, Pontiac USA and Pontiac Canada adopt Pontiac Mexico's lineup sans the van and Torrent. A unified lineup would mesh well with CAFE and the governing establishment's desire during the next US president's term to merge the economies of North America.

Forum: General Motors News · Post Preview: #359027 · Replies: 182 · Views: 4,228

[Blake Noble]

Here we have another Pontiac model devoid of Pontiac character, attitude, and soul. GM is making it so hard to care about Pontiac anymore.

[PurdueGuy]

dumb, dumb, dumb.

[regfootball]

COOL. when do we get this. what i really want is a G5 sedan with the turbo.

Edited June 2, 2008 by regfootball

[buyacargetacheck]

The "character, attitude, and soul" of a Pontiac boils down to the nostrils grille and the red instrumentation. The mass of car buyers would not miss Pontiac if it went away just like they haven't missed Oldsmobile, Plymouth, GEO, AMC/Eagle.

Here we have another Pontiac model devoid of Pontiac character, attitude, and soul. GM is making it so hard to care about Pontiac anymore.

[buyacargetacheck]

Businesswise it's a great move.

Look, the brand's days are numbered, CAFE is a very real requirement, and GM can't simply get rid of Pontiac until the PBG channel is fully integrated. What to do? Leverage your large dealer body and keep your factories humming by grabbing a few extra sales. There might actually be some profit in there if they don't get too wild and flood the market with these things. That could still happen judging by the apparent G6 dumping into fleets lately.

dumb, dumb, dumb.

[siegen]

Pontiac is REBADGE

[z28luvr01]

Who needs Alpha when you can have this.

Awesome move, GM. Way to give customers a reason to buy Pontiac over any other brand.

*golf clap*

[ZL-1]

Pontiac is REBADGE

:rotflmao: I think all of us feel the Excitement

[ocnblu]

There's a lot of uncertainty coming. If the G3 helps keep the lights on at Pontiac dealerships... I will not complain as loud as I could. At least until the dust settles. I want Pontiac to survive the coming darkness.

[Blake Noble]

The "character, attitude, and soul" of a Pontiac boils down to the nostrils grille and the red instrumentation.

The following cars are the embodiment of the Pontiac formula:

Why are they definitive Pontiac? Because they feature(d) class-leading performance, handling, value and/or unprecedented styling. They are or were American cars focused on the purpose of driving and making driving enjoyable, exciting, and fun.

The G3 does none of that. A pig snout on an Aveo does not make a Pontiac, thank you.

The mass of car buyers would not miss Pontiac if it went away just like they haven't missed Oldsmobile, Plymouth, GEO, AMC/Eagle.

:rotflmao:

We have been through this before. GM loses Pontiac, GM loses customers and market share. Some of those customers will not be enticed by a Saturn, just as Olds customers were not enticed by Buick. It does not work that way, I am sorry. This logic applies to all of those brands you have mentioned, just to a different degree.

Edited June 2, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[buyacargetacheck]

Pontiac exists in name only. There's nothing particularly "Pontiac" about the Solstice other than the beak and badges. It was developed by GMNA engineering, not by "Pontiac" engineers (as the original GTOs were). Same with the G8 except swap out "GMNA" for "Holden." Both cars could have easily been nose-styled and badged as Chevrolets and no one would blink an eye.

Who but the completely blind do not see this?

The following cars are the embodiment of the Pontiac formula:

Why are they definitive Pontiac? Because they feature(d) class-leading performance, handling, value and/or unprecedented styling. They are or were American cars focused on the purpose of driving and making driving enjoyable, exciting, and fun.

The G3 does none of that. A pig snout on an Aveo does not make a Pontiac, thank you.

:rotflmao:

We have been through this before. GM loses Pontiac, GM loses customers and market share. Some of those customers will not be enticed by a Saturn, just as Olds customers were not enticed by Buick. It does not work that way, I am sorry. This logic applies to all of those brands you have mentioned, just to a different degree.

[gm4life]

Well they put a set of kidneys on an Equinox and gave it better ride and handling and I bought one. No it isn't as exciting as a Solstice. But there are people who want a slighty sporty and less common car and don't want a Chevy or a Buick. Whomever said Olds isn't missed should be shot. I would have loved to seen the next gene Alero as it was a great looking car for the time ('99) and a new gen Aurora. As long as a G3 with a sporty ride and handling help make it not exactly that same as the Aveo with minor styling tweaks I have no problem. Do we really wonder why the Camry and Impala have been best sellers? Each are realivtely boring cars (especially) the Camry, because they work for what most peoples needs are and get decent fuel economy. I think a RWD G8 Series and Solstice with a FWD G6, G5 (with GXP trim) and a Vibe, Torrent and G3 could make for a very nice line-up and an slightly sportier alternative to Chevrolet. Go ahead and scream at me. I know I don't get it but I understand what the mainstream public want, and Pontiac dealers want, ever wonder even though Aztek was ugly why they got a Torrent that is accounts for some 30K sales that I doubt would go to the Equniox if Pontiac didn't have the Torrent... Because dealers wanted a small V6 powered crossover from Pontiac to sell. I know you want unique cars from them but blame greedy Saturn for getting the Sky (never should have happend) and most people who buy a G8 won't even know the car came from Holden or even what Holden is. They can be sucessful like the line-up I said previously... Now go bitch at me please.

Edited June 2, 2008 by gm4life

[z28luvr01]

Pontiac exists in name only. There's nothing particularly "Pontiac" about the Solstice other than the beak and badges. It was developed by GMNA engineering, not by "Pontiac" engineers (as the original GTOs were). Same with the G8 except swap out "GMNA" for "Holden." Both cars could have easily been nose-styled and badged as Chevrolets and no one would blink an eye.

Who but the completely blind do not see this?

Only the completely blind would say that the Solstice and Sky only differ by the nose and badges. I'm not going to post pics for comparison. Do that yourself.

GM's divisions haven't had separate design/engineering staffs for quite some time now. By your logic, Chevy exists in name only, Caddy esists in name only, Saturn exists in name only....you get the idea. So why the hate on Pontiac when every other division is guilty of the same thing? Regardless of your personal feelings towards Pontiac, you can't argue the fact that it's in GM's best interests to keep the divisions it has, give them RELEVANT product (read: No G3s, G5s, or other shameless rebadges that you are such a proponent of) , and grow them as profitability will eventually allow. Closing a brand is foolish. America is already looking for reasons not to buy GM. Closing a division will certainly accomplish that.

[gm4life]

Oh and in the 60's and 70's has anyone realize a Chevelle was a Cutlass which was a 442 which was a Skylark which was a GSX which was a GTO which was a Tempest which was a Lemans which all were the same car underneath. Or how about the 1977 Caprice err I mean Impala no, no, I meant Bonneville or shall I say Lesabre you get the point don't you? How about the Toronado or should I say Riv or Eldorado. Do you folks get my point?

[Brougham-Holiday]

NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the last thing GM needs is to water down the performance division at a time when Pontiac is looking so good. I don't want a 2009 T1000 or Deawoo Lemans or G3 or whatever its called, lets get a DI 4 cyl for the G5 GT or add a stick shift option for all G8 models, not this crap!

[buyacargetacheck]

That's right. Chevrolet and Cadillac do not exist as separate divisions in the old sense. They are merely brand names with glorified sales/marketing managers "running" them. However, they are core brands and are therefore synonymous with GMNA. Chevy by itself accounts for 3 out of every 5 GMNA sales.

By your logic, Chevy exists in name only, Caddy esists in name only, Saturn exists in name only....you get the idea.

[PurdueGuy]

Businesswise it's a great move.

Yes... in the short-term. What is the #1 problem of most of the GM brands though? IMAGE! This may help dealers notch up a few more sales, but it completely works in the wrong direction for the brand's #1 problem. Truly great business moves focus on LONG TERM gains, often at the expense of short-term ones.

[buyacargetacheck]

The Torrent is a decent vehicle. I'm not ragging on your sled or on you. And you are right -- there are retail buyers who want something that looks a little different than a Chevy. Problem is there aren't enough of them anymore judging by shrinking sales at Pontiac, Buick and Saturn. Worse, increased fleet sales are keeping those shrinking Pontiac sales numbers looking better than they really are.

BTW, we can't "blame greedy Saturn" because there is no "Saturn." Blame Lutz and his team of strategists if you want somebody to blame because that's where the product marketing decisions are made. Your perception of "divisional conflict" is many years out of date.

Well they put a set of kidneys on an Equinox and gave it better ride and handling and I bought one. No it isn't as exciting as a Solstice. But there are people who want a slighty sporty and less common car and don't want a Chevy or a Buick. Whomever said Olds isn't missed should be shot. I would have loved to seen the next gene Alero as it was a great looking car for the time ('99) and a new gen Aurora. As long as a G3 with a sporty ride and handling help make it not exactly that same as the Aveo with minor styling tweaks I have no problem. Do we really wonder why the Camry and Impala have been best sellers? Each are realivtely boring cars (especially) the Camry, because they work for what most peoples needs are and get decent fuel economy. I think a RWD G8 Series and Solstice with a FWD G6, G5 (with GXP trim) and a Vibe, Torrent and G3 could make for a very nice line-up and an slightly sportier alternative to Chevrolet. Go ahead and scream at me. I know I don't get it but I understand what the mainstream public want, and Pontiac dealers want, ever wonder even though Aztek was ugly why they got a Torrent that is accounts for some 30K sales that I doubt would go to the Equniox if Pontiac didn't have the Torrent... Because dealers wanted a small V6 powered crossover from Pontiac to sell. I know you want unique cars from them but blame greedy Saturn for getting the Sky (never should have happend) and most people who buy a G8 won't even know the car came from Holden or even what Holden is. They can be sucessful like the line-up I said previously... Now go bitch at me please.

[buyacargetacheck]

Agreed. The reality, though, is that GM just doesn't have the money, the vision or the weak incompetent competition to make that happen.

Yes... in the short-term. What is the #1 problem of most of the GM brands though? IMAGE! This may help dealers notch up a few more sales, but it completely works in the wrong direction for the brand's #1 problem. Truly great business moves focus on LONG TERM gains, often at the expense of short-term ones.

[gm4life]

No I know you weren't but I was just kidding around. I do understand. I do find my Torrent to be a very pleasing vehicle and the fuel economy keeps getting better.

[DetroitNut90]

Maybe this is just a ploy by GM to get another high-mileage car in its fleet for CAFE purposes. The G3 is lamer than lame, but if its presence on dealer lots allows Pontiac to continue offering the G8 and assorted variants, it might not be a bad thing at all.

[BigPontiac]

TICK TOCK.

At this rate, just put Pontiac out of its misery.

[Drew Dowdell]

Actually, it looks like a mini-Vibe, which may not be such a bad thing.

[Paolino]

Actually, it looks like a mini-Vibe, which may not be such a bad thing.

If done right... how about a really Peppy G3? Can we throw some more power into this thing somehow? Give it a little extra on the handling, and there's your excitement.

[FAPTurbo]

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but I don't see what the big deal really is. We have Wave's running around all over the place, and they don't bug me. Family friends bought one, and they enjoy its 'cheap and cheerfulness' , although their Pontiac dealer experience was incredibly $h!ty.

[regfootball]

i would much rather have a 'pontiac g3' than a 'chevy aveo', likewise i would rather ghave a 'g5 turbo' than a 'cobalt ss'.

chevy is too plain. too toyota.

[Oracle of Delphi]

TICK TOCK.

At this rate, just put Pontiac out of its misery.

[Lamar]

Maybe this is just a ploy by GM to get another high-mileage car in its fleet for CAFE purposes. The G3 is lamer than lame, but if its presence on dealer lots allows Pontiac to continue offering the G8 and assorted variants, it might not be a bad thing at all.

Ya know, while we're all here getting about this, you may have brought up a decent idea. I didn't even think of that.

[Paolino]

Can someone explain this to me? Does CAFE look at GM as a whole? Or each brand's average fuel ratings?

[Windy-57]

I have to say that GM's reaction (or rather overreaction) to CAFE is going to kill them. This is the type of crap that kills brands. The G3 isn't what Pontiac should be, but guess what, if they bring it to market, then a number of people will believe that's what Pontiac is and that will conflict with the 20 other images Pontiac has had recently including (Aztek, Montana, Vibe, Solstice, etc.) Someone please tell me the defining characteristics that makes a cohesive brand out of these.

And the saddest part is that they're doing this because of CAFE. News to GM, Pontiac can still be performance oriented and you can still meet the future CAFE standards and keep your precious trucks. Here's how:

1. Solstice stays, it's pretty good with gas as is.

2. Make the Vibe more badass by giving it the turbo 4 in the Solstice; 260 horses would do that car nicely (think GTi)

3. By making the Vibe that way, it leaves you room to give a version to Chevy

4. G6 replaced by Alpha. Again you could use the same turbo 4 and do well with mileage and then add a 6-cylinder turbo version as the GXP.

5. Zeta G8 you still have enough CAFE room to do a few less fuel efficient vehicles in the GM family and Pontiac damn well better get at least one.

6. A version of the Volt to slot below the Alpha - I know what you're thinking, but electric cars do have a performance side to them (constant torque bands.) Be the first automaker to go beyond the idea of electric=green and make a statement that electric is the future of all cars and that includes performance cars. Focus on aerodynamics and gear the car toward performance. Think Tesla.

Now, you can't tell me that this lineup wouldn't provide Pontiac with a more fuel efficient lineup by a significant margin and fit the performance standard people want from Pontiac while also fitting into GM's platform sharing strategy while also adding some relevance to a performance brand in today's market.

By the way, that took me all of 15 minutes to think of. The G3...you've got to be $h!ting me.

[Satty]

A Mini style Pontiac (FWD and all) would do wonders for the brands image.

[VenSeattle]

I heard the Pontiac G1 Electric Scooter isn't far behind. Rumor is GM is working something out with Vespa.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The "character, attitude, and soul" of a Pontiac boils down to the nostrils grille and the red instrumentation. The mass of car buyers would not miss Pontiac if it went away just like they haven't missed Oldsmobile, Plymouth, GEO, AMC/Eagle.

Obviously you're young. Or have been living under a rock for the last 30 years.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Get ready next fall, will be the premier of the Pontiac G0, a modified skateboard with the twin kidney grille theme, all it needs is foot power and/or gavity to keep you moving in that Pontiac style!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac exists in name only. There's nothing particularly "Pontiac" about the Solstice other than the beak and badges. It was developed by GMNA engineering, not by "Pontiac" engineers (as the original GTOs were). Same with the G8 except swap out "GMNA" for "Holden." Both cars could have easily been nose-styled and badged as Chevrolets and no one would blink an eye.

Who but the completely blind do not see this?

As do all of the other divisions... Are you completely blind to that?

Should we just sell a whole showroom of cars with GMNA badging?

[Oracle of Delphi]

As do all of the other divisions... Are you completely blind to that?

Should we just sell a whole showroom of cars with GMNA badging?

You mean GME badging don't you?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You mean GME badging don't you?

Nah...

Since GME is controlled by GMNA, it'd be GMNA badges.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Nah...

Since GME is controlled by GMNA, it'd be GMNA badges.

Nahh, we're just waiting for Lutz to move out in 2010, then we officially move into Detroit.

Edited June 2, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Stupid thread, about a stupid idea, supporting a stupid strategy.

Moronic to the core.

[Blake Noble]

TICK TOCK.

... Boom?

[Brougham-Holiday]

The "character, attitude, and soul" of a Pontiac boils down to the nostrils grille and the red instrumentation. The mass of car buyers would not miss Pontiac if it went away just like they haven't missed Oldsmobile, Plymouth, GEO, AMC/Eagle.

I know of 3 people who wanted to replace their Oldsmobiles with new ones (94 Cutlass Supreme, and 2 Eighty Eights) but are unable to because there are no new Oldsmobiles. By the way my neighbor just replaced his Oldsmobile (Silhouette van)...with a Toyota.

GM why not give an Aveo to Saturn instead of Pontiac as fuel economy would fit them much more then Pontiac.

[LastMercury]

Blame the people that voted for higher CAFE standards. GM is just doing what it can to meet the regulations.

At least it's a 'CAR'. Pontiac is car.

The new G3 with a powerful Briggs & Stratton engine

Edited June 3, 2008 by LastMercury

[ZL-1]

Get ready next fall, will be the premier of the Pontiac G0, a modified skateboard with the twin kidney grille theme, all it needs is foot power and/or gavity to keep you moving in that Pontiac style!

:rotflmao:

Last week this girl that works in my office building left the elevator with a skateboard under her arm... I wonder if that was a G0 mule

Edited June 3, 2008 by ZL-1

[Guest aatbloke]

I've read a lot of comments about rebadging the Corsa VXR as a G3, but given its pricing point and the fact it isn't certified for North American sale I can't see it either being prepared for federalisation given the life of the current model, or selling particularly well in the States once it arrived.

An Aveo-based model makes more fiscal business sense, although in keeping with Pontiac's sporting image they should have concentrated on the 3-door Aveo instead and shod it with the forthcoming 1.4 litre turbocharged Opel unit due also to be used in North America.

[Guest aatbloke]

Stupid thread, about a stupid idea, supporting a stupid strategy.

Moronic to the core.

Once you're paying $6+ the idea might not seem as moronic as you currently think. Most ordinary people in the developed world consider a 2.0 litre engine quite large, and sooner or later this mentality will have to be adopted in North America - or face economic doom.

[Camino LS6]

We are already facing economic doom and fuel prices are only part of the problem. Even so, Pontiac is the wrong place for such a car.

[Dragon]

I want to spit on every bastard child that is the Wave and to a lesser extent the G5 I see up here

[Guest aatbloke]

We are already facing economic doom and fuel prices are only part of the problem. Even so, Pontiac is the wrong place for such a car.

Fuel prices are a huge part of the problem because they affect the cost of everything transported by road - in fact it affects the cost of almost every consumable including cars. In order to give yourself a good market spread, cars such as this aren't a bad idea. Mercedes, Audi and BMW for example have all ventured into the small-car market (in various interpretations) over the past decade. You change with the times or you face death.

I'm not suggesting that the G3 in this particular reiteration is the best move, but the principle makes sound business sense. If Pontiac must use the Kalos/Aveo as a basis, then at least use the 3-door shell and give it the forthcoming 1400cc turbo. That said, the Corsa VXR would be a better basis in terms of a performance-oriented vehicle, but the expense in federalising the current car would probably outweigh the benefits.

[buyacargetacheck]

No, I remember the Iron Duke, the last Pontiac-engineered engine, quite well. Do you? Now, that's what you call Pontiac Excitement!

Obviously you're young. Or have been living under a rock for the last 30 years.