GM Officially Cancels Zeta Buick

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Also, Toyota got where it is today by "playing it safe" with reliable, economical FWD appliance cars!! Not every car buyer wants a Drag racer that reminds them of the 1960's. Sure Euro luxo boats are RWD, but the average European isn't driving them, #1 car over there is VW Golf.

Wrong... Toyota got where it is today by building an IMAGE of reliability. Toyota could sell a Chinese car in america and STILL get people to pay a premium just because of the name. It's not about the product, it's about the name and the image associated with the name.

And that's EXACTLY why GM should not emulate Toyota. GM's division will NEVER be sold on names like Toyota is. So GM must focus on PRODUCT and EMOTIONAL attachment in order to beat Toyota. GM must offer what Toyota doesn't, they must one-up Toyota by offering quality vehicles that the consumer aspires to own based on design and emotional appeal.

If you give the average consumer the names Chevrolet and Toyota on a piece of paper and ask them what they'll buy, most will probably go with Toyota. If you sit a Malibu beside a Camry in a room and ask them the same question, I'm willing to bet you'll get a much more varied response and much more hesitation on the part of the Toyota fans. that's because the Malibu does exactly what I said GM should do. Offer the same quality, with a lot more personality and appeal.

If GM waters down it's product line up, they don't have a chance in hell because the default choice for consumers is Toyota.

GM has Caddy,

Not affordable.

Vette,

Not affordable and in serious jeopardy of either not existing or REALLY not being affordable.

and Camaro for RWD loyalists.

Short run, and then ruined when it moves to Alpha.

So you're apparently going to continue with the "Rear drive = 1960s dragster/gas guzzler" mentality. I suppose every 3 series or C class buyer is a gearhead. So is every who buys a Solstice, Sky, 300, G35/37, IS250/350, or Miata. Yeah, that's it - I could just picture 10 of these cars parked in a Dairy Queen parking lot on a Thursday night with the owners standing over their engine compartments with the hood open making grunting noises and scratching themselves. Yeah, you're dead on. GM doesn't need to go after these customers. They're just living in the past anyway.

Don't forget about all of those Mini sales... Those people are SURELY ignorant redneck gear heads like us, right?

Edited June 9, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[CSpec]

Well the Toyota name is/was obviously built on something, reputations don't come from nowhere.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well the Toyota name is/was obviously built on something, reputations don't come from nowhere.

It was built on opportunity...

Opportunity created by the first fuel crunch and an increasingly liberal anti-american pop culture. I own an 80s Toyota and still drive it sometimes. the car isn't the sh*t it is/was cracked up to be. Yet, the asiasn took a SERIOUS chunk of the market anyway based on 1) Detroits inability to offer decent gas sipping cars 2) Disdain for america and Detroit in pop culture and 3) a dealership infrastructure basically FINANCED by Detroit and exploited by japan.

[Drew Dowdell]

Short run, and then ruined when it moves to Alpha.

uhm, won't Alpha make it lighter?

[Lamar]

uhm, won't Alpha make it lighter?

He's talking about the inability to fit a V8 into Alpha. Though I am curious as to where he got that, since I've heard it a lot. Any resources?

[Drew Dowdell]

FOG, if they can get 6 litres into the smallest Sigma they'll be able to get 4 litres plus a turbo into an Alpha.

Heck, hasn't someone got a V8 into a Kappa?

[turbo200]

It was built on opportunity...

Opportunity created by the first fuel crunch and an increasingly liberal anti-american pop culture. I own an 80s Toyota and still drive it sometimes. the car isn't the sh*t it is/was cracked up to be. Yet, the asiasn took a SERIOUS chunk of the market anyway based on 1) Detroits inability to offer decent gas sipping cars 2) Disdain for america and Detroit in pop culture and 3) a dealership infrastructure basically FINANCED by Detroit and exploited by japan.

you're saying more than two different contradicting things. the reality is conditions like we're in today, where gas prices are skyrocketing and finally people across the country are waking up to a need for energy indepedence, could be called good timing for toyota and honda, but the reality of that is ALSO that GM and Ford do not have a reputation for building practical, fuel efficient, well built cars. it comes down to more than just a story that you claim toyota sold the public on, it comes down to solid product that was what the customer wanted. if the customer didn't want what toyota and honda had to offer, they could simply choose to spend thier money elsewhere. the fact that honda and toyota initially underpriced thier cars was just good business sense, they allowed people to try thier cars, let the word spread, then created the sense of need, i.e. i need a toyota that won't break down, I need a honda that is incredibly gas efficient and practical. then they get to seize on the opporunity of tremendous economic upheavals like we're in today. there's no conspiracy, the simply relied on the cars they knew people would always need. i don't see any problem with any of this.

if GM or Ford had been focusing long ago on significantly improving gas mileage, durability, and developing practical designs that were also reliable, whilst also gaining acclaim in the press and talking about in thier own publications.....things might be different today. but you reap what you sow. tell me the cavalier was better or more fuel efficient or well designed or good to drive or more durable than a civic. just try and sell that one.

[cire]

I think GM is in a unique position to use their multiple brands to offer something unique in the market and cover almost every conceivable segment in the market if it would properly utilize their resources and the potential equity of their divisions. I believe that FWD is the preferred choice as far as the mainstream, mass market is concerned, but that doesn't mean that GM should abandon offering RWD vehicles in both the affordable and luxury ends of the market. GM has the Pontiac division that is in desperate need of a major makeover/revitalization and they have access to RWD platforms that could help them increase the corporation's market share by offering something unique in the market through Pontiac (an entire division that offers affordable RWD products). Contrary to many people on this forum, I believe that Saturn, Buick and Chevrolet (except for the Camaro, Corvette and trucks/SUVs) should rely on FWD platforms for their product portfolios. Pontiac and Cadillac should be the beneficiaries of the RWD platforms to cover the affordable and luxury niche segments of the market who prefer and appreciate the capabilities and traits that RWD offers. I think GM not shoehorning a RWD product into Buick's portfolio is not a major tragedy; denying brand appropriate RWD products to the corporation's affordable performance CAR division is a crime and a disgrace (coupled with the annoying practice of providing this same division with image damaging twin nostiled Chevy clone products).

Imagine how much of a youth division Pontiac could become if it could make a sporty 4-seat 3-door and 5-door subcompact car on a modified Kappa platform with a choice of a 1.8 liter turbocharged base engine or 2.4 liter turbocharged upgrade engine. I personally think this kind of product would blow the doors off anything Scion currently claims that they offer the youth market. I also think a compact Alpha based sedan, coupe, and 5-door (with the same engines as the Kappa hatchback; slightly tuned to offer more power to compensate for a larger vehicle) would be huge hits in the market. A midsize sedan and coupe based on a SWB version of the SigZeta platform merger would provide the market with sportier alternatives to the Accord/Altima sedan/coupe combos. The G8 could continue on into the future as a marginally larger sedan (about 198 inches long?) based on the LWB version of the upcoming SigZeta combo platform. Of course, the Solstice roadster/coupe would continue (its styling would be aligned with global versions sold by Opel/Vauxhall/Holden/Daewoo and it would be a platform mate to a luxury retractable hardtop version for Cadillac; the Saturn Sky would be discontinued in favor of "TwinTop" coupe versions of its Corsa, Astra, and Aura lines). Pontiac would be an alternative, niche player in the market, but at least it would not be offering products that directly compete with the more mainstream FWD based products offered by Chevrolet and Saturn (I'm hoping that Buick is repositioned as a true FWD luxury division, more of a Lincoln/Acura/Audi competitor). The division might even attract customers who would love to own a new BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, Lexus (or even Cadillac), but can't afford the price of entry into these brands.

Instead of wasting time and resources shoehorning RWD products into divisions that can properly maintain their images and customer base with FWD products, I would rather see GM use these platforms to rejuvenate their Pontiac division.

Edited June 9, 2008 by cire

[Camino LS6]

FOG, if they can get 6 litres into the smallest Sigma they'll be able to get 4 litres plus a turbo into an Alpha.

Heck, hasn't someone got a V8 into a Kappa?

Yes, but the rub comes with having to engineer Alpha to handle a V8. That would add weight to all Alpha cars since so many of the hard parts would need to be beefier.

That's why I said that I could see V8 Alpha Camaros being and upfit project independent of regular Alpha production.

That way V8 availability can remain (although more expensive) and "regular' Alphas can be lighter.

[turbo200]

Yes, but the rub comes with having to engineer Alpha to handle a V8. That would add weight to all Alpha cars since so many of the hard parts would need to be beefier.

That's why I said that I could see V8 Alpha Camaros being and upfit project independent of regular Alpha production.

That way V8 availability can remain (although more expensive) and "regular' Alphas can be lighter.

that's something i've been arguing against; muddying the image of what is to become alpha. people because they want to see thing happen one way think GM should just make a whole fleet of RWDs, including cars as large as the G8 on Alpha, that's ridiculous, and we'd end up with the same situation we have with Zeta, a compromised platform that ends up getting canceled because it doesn't meet the needs of any one mainstream product all that well.

we don't even know what the future of the V8, internal combustion engine, or gas prices are and we're arguging and dictating what a gen 6 camaro will be. i say if GM can develop a lightweight, package efficient Camaro, with room for 4, then if the 6 cylinder is the highest engine option, as long as there is one with great available powerful option, maybe a turbo V6, if it's more fuel efficient then great. if not, you always have the gen 5 Camaro to snap up now while they're here [there will be plenty used options to choose from as well].

in the last four years gas prices have more than doubled. if we continue at this current rate of increase we will see prices north of $8 by 2011, or around the time Alpha gets released. let me see hands up for anyone who is happy, truly happy with thier V8 situation the way it is now, paying more than $80/week to fill up. and let me see hands up on who thinks that is going to sustainable for many years to come....

[Camino LS6]

Please clarify, Turbo.

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly in that last post.

[turbo200]

Please clarify, Turbo.

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly in that last post.

I'm not referring to you when I say people want everything out of Alpha, but I am not in support of diverting all these development possibilities just for the sake of a V8 engine which we don't even know where it's going to be when Alpha launches. I think it's time for you and others to accept the reality that, for now at least, we have to look forward to other options towards propelling our cars rather than relatively gas-guzzling options which are not going to be the populous going down the future. i'm not advocating completely eliminating the V8 engine, but at least for Alpha, in this exact case, given GM's limited time allotment, limited resources in the current market, they just need to get the cars out, and those cars need to be fun, but also marketable.

[cire]

I'm not referring to you when I say people want everything out of Alpha, but I am not in support of diverting all these development possibilities just for the sake of a V8 engine which we don't even know where it's going to be when Alpha launches. I think it's time for you and others to accept the reality that, for now at least, we have to look forward to other options towards propelling our cars rather than relatively gas-guzzling options which are not going to be the populous going down the future. i'm not advocating completely eliminating the V8 engine, but at least for Alpha, in this exact case, given GM's limited time allotment, limited resources in the current market, they just need to get the cars out, and those cars need to be fun, but also marketable.

I agree. I think smaller displacement, turbocharged engines would work well in Alpha (as well as hybrids and diesels). I think the 1.4 would be too small, but I do see 1.8, 2.0, and 2.4 liter engines competently, yet efficiently propelling the Alpha products. You don't need to shoehorn a V8 engine into a car to make it sporty and exciting. I agree with you that future market conditions as well as CAFE regulations will dramatically change the performance perceptions of many people. I do believe that many interesting alternatives can be created if automakers focus and motivate themselves to develop them.

Edited June 9, 2008 by cire

[Camino LS6]

I'm not referring to you when I say people want everything out of Alpha, but I am not in support of diverting all these development possibilities just for the sake of a V8 engine which we don't even know where it's going to be when Alpha launches. I think it's time for you and others to accept the reality that, for now at least, we have to look forward to other options towards propelling our cars rather than relatively gas-guzzling options which are not going to be the populous going down the future. i'm not advocating completely eliminating the V8 engine, but at least for Alpha, in this exact case, given GM's limited time allotment, limited resources in the current market, they just need to get the cars out, and those cars need to be fun, but also marketable.

So, you agree with me?

That situation is precisely why I said the V8 would be an upfit and not part of regular production.

As for my position on this, I want to see both Alpha and Zeta remain available with Alpha not engineered for a V8.

For me, zeta is perfectly sized.

[turbo200]

So, you agree with me?

That situation is precisely why I said the V8 would be an upfit and not part of regular production.

As for my position on this, I want to see both Alpha and Zeta remain available with Alpha not engineered for a V8.

For me, zeta is perfectly sized.

i think you're saying camaro should be specifically developed, as an offshoot of alpha with the capability for V8. though it's going against religion around here, I don't agree with that. since we know alpha will be the new camaro, I'd rather them take the time to get alpha right, not worry about including parts for V8s like you mentioned above, since we all know they're not going to spend the time or money to do two seperate versions, one for camaro. i know that essentially they changed zeta for camaro, but it won't work a second time around, since the changes to make the platform suitable for a V8 are more sizeable, I would think. I would rather them get alpha right, make it lightweight, make it strong, make it handle right, and then worry about a V8 camaro later, if it needs to even come out, given the kind of power we can see with smaller engines today.

[Camino LS6]

i think you're saying camaro should be specifically developed, as an offshoot of alpha with the capability for V8. though it's going against religion around here, I don't agree with that. since we know alpha will be the new camaro, I'd rather them take the time to get alpha right, not worry about including parts for V8s like you mentioned above, since we all know they're not going to spend the time or money to do two seperate versions, one for camaro. i know that essentially they changed zeta for camaro, but it won't work a second time around, since the changes to make the platform suitable for a V8 are more sizeable, I would think. I would rather them get alpha right, make it lightweight, make it strong, make it handle right, and then worry about a V8 camaro later, if it needs to even come out, given the kind of power we can see with smaller engines today.

Nope.

You missed my position entirely.

I agree that Alpha should be developed without V8 capability.

When I say "upfit" I mean done after the fact like the Mallet Solstice, or a Boss 429 Mustang, or a Firehawk.

I don't want to see regular production Alphas bear the cost of V8 compatibility. An Alpha Camaro with Hi-PO V6 would constitute most of the production with the V8 being a special production item independent of the rest.

[regfootball]

I think GM is in a unique position to use their multiple brands to offer something unique in the market and cover almost every conceivable segment in the market if it would properly utilize their resources and the potential equity of their divisions. I believe that FWD is the preferred choice as far as the mainstream, mass market is concerned, but that doesn't mean that GM should abandon offering RWD vehicles in both the affordable and luxury ends of the market. GM has the Pontiac division that is in desperate need of a major makeover/revitalization and they have access to RWD platforms that could help them increase the corporation's market share by offering something unique in the market through Pontiac (an entire division that offers affordable RWD products). Contrary to many people on this forum, I believe that Saturn, Buick and Chevrolet (except for the Camaro, Corvette and trucks/SUVs) should rely on FWD platforms for their product portfolios. Pontiac and Cadillac should be the beneficiaries of the RWD platforms to cover the affordable and luxury niche segments of the market who prefer and appreciate the capabilities and traits that RWD offers. I think GM not shoehorning a RWD product into Buick's portfolio is not a major tragedy; denying brand appropriate RWD products to the corporation's affordable performance CAR division is a crime and a disgrace (coupled with the annoying practice of providing this same division with image damaging twin nostiled Chevy clone products).

Imagine how much of a youth division Pontiac could become if it could make a sporty 4-seat 3-door and 5-door subcompact car on a modified Kappa platform with a choice of a 1.8 liter turbocharged base engine or 2.4 liter turbocharged upgrade engine. I personally think this kind of product would blow the doors off anything Scion currently claims that they offer the youth market. I also think a compact Alpha based sedan, coupe, and 5-door (with the same engines as the Kappa hatchback; slightly tuned to offer more power to compensate for a larger vehicle) would be huge hits in the market. A midsize sedan and coupe based on a SWB version of the SigZeta platform merger would provide the market with sportier alternatives to the Accord/Altima sedan/coupe combos. The G8 could continue on into the future as a marginally larger sedan (about 198 inches long?) based on the LWB version of the upcoming SigZeta combo platform. Of course, the Solstice roadster/coupe would continue (its styling would be aligned with global versions sold by Opel/Vauxhall/Holden/Daewoo and it would be a platform mate to a luxury retractable hardtop version for Cadillac; the Saturn Sky would be discontinued in favor of "TwinTop" coupe versions of its Corsa, Astra, and Aura lines). Pontiac would be an alternative, niche player in the market, but at least it would not be offering products that directly compete with the more mainstream FWD based products offered by Chevrolet and Saturn (I'm hoping that Buick is repositioned as a true FWD luxury division, more of a Lincoln/Acura/Audi competitor). The division might even attract customers who would love to own a new BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, Lexus (or even Cadillac), but can't afford the price of entry into these brands.

Instead of wasting time and resources shoehorning RWD products into divisions that can properly maintain their images and customer base with FWD products, I would rather see GM use these platforms to rejuvenate their Pontiac division.

great post

[Toyota.vs.GM]

What's the need for a V8 when a Turbo HF V6 has about the same power ? :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

What's the need for a V8 when a Turbo HF V6 has about the same power ? :AH-HA_wink:

I wonder how a turbo HF V6 would compare to the V8 in weight? (for that matter, how does a current regular HF V6 compare to a current corporate pushrod V8 in weight?)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

He's talking about the inability to fit a V8 into Alpha. Though I am curious as to where he got that, since I've heard it a lot. Any resources?

The whole issue with V8 Alphas isn't engineering. It can easily be done and at this point in the program, they could still include it.

The issue is with politics and consumer choice. Homeroom for Alpha is supposedly GME, so they'll be reluctant to engineer the platform for a V8 simply because it won't suit their needs. Not to mention, if gas goes like some people say it will (god I hope not) then how many V8 Alphas will GM sell anyway?

I get most of my Alpha news from camaroz28.com. Many over there think that the added weight and complexity of a V8 would ruin the handling characteristics of the platform and make it just as heavy as Zeta.

I'm hopeful for a V8 in Alpha, as I would MUCH rather have an Alpha sized Camaro. But I'd almost place money on it not being V8 compatible.

[Drew Dowdell]

If you can have a 350hp turbo V6 Camaro in a lighter body rather than a 400hp V8 Camaro in a heavier body, wouldn't you want the lighter vehicle?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

you're saying more than two different contradicting things. the reality is conditions like we're in today, where gas prices are skyrocketing and finally people across the country are waking up to a need for energy indepedence, could be called good timing for toyota and honda, but the reality of that is ALSO that GM and Ford do not have a reputation for building practical, fuel efficient, well built cars. it comes down to more than just a story that you claim toyota sold the public on, it comes down to solid product that was what the customer wanted.

What do most Toyotas sell on? Name alone.

I never said the product was bad. But it's certainly nothing to write home about, especially compared to competition from Ford, GM and VW in todays market.

if the customer didn't want what toyota and honda had to offer, they could simply choose to spend thier money elsewhere. the fact that honda and toyota initially underpriced thier cars was just good business sense, they allowed people to try thier cars, let the word spread, then created the sense of need, i.e. i need a toyota that won't break down, I need a honda that is incredibly gas efficient and practical. then they get to seize on the opporunity of tremendous economic upheavals like we're in today. there's no conspiracy, the simply relied on the cars they knew people would always need. i don't see any problem with any of this.

I never said it was a conspiracy. I said it was REALLY effective marketing and GREAT timing.

if GM or Ford had been focusing long ago on significantly improving gas mileage, durability, and developing practical designs that were also reliable, whilst also gaining acclaim in the press and talking about in thier own publications.....things might be different today. but you reap what you sow. tell me the cavalier was better or more fuel efficient or well designed or good to drive or more durable than a civic. just try and sell that one.

FWIW my GFs cavalier is A LOT more fuel efficient than her brothers Civic and my Focus.

Yet again, I'm not denying that GM and Ford could've done better, I'm simply pointing out culture and environment.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

that's something i've been arguing against; muddying the image of what is to become alpha. people because they want to see thing happen one way think GM should just make a whole fleet of RWDs, including cars as large as the G8 on Alpha, that's ridiculous, and we'd end up with the same situation we have with Zeta, a compromised platform that ends up getting canceled because it doesn't meet the needs of any one mainstream product all that well.

Well, I'd be absolutely fine with Alpha NOT offering a V8 if GM weren't so stupid to cancel Zeta or some form of it.

GM needs a variety of cars and platforms... Zeta, Eps II, Delta II, Alpha, etc. But what we'll end up getting is Eps II cars that are for the bland buyers, Alpha cars that are just as bland except with a bit better handling and a bunch of cheap Delta IIs.

we don't even know what the future of the V8, internal combustion engine, or gas prices are and we're arguging and dictating what a gen 6 camaro will be.

WE can determine the future of the V8 and ICE if WE were to innovate instead of follow. WE must plan now, or WE'LL be caught dead in the market again.

in the last four years gas prices have more than doubled. if we continue at this current rate of increase we will see prices north of $8 by 2011, or around the time Alpha gets released. let me see hands up for anyone who is happy, truly happy with thier V8 situation the way it is now, paying more than $80/week to fill up. and let me see hands up on who thinks that is going to sustainable for many years to come....

*raises hand*

Why do you people think that there will be NO innovation in the future? By 2011, the gas bubble might bust... By 2011, we might be drilling elsewhere... By 2011, ethanol might be prevalent... By 2011, we could have hydrogen fueled ICEs... By 2011, we could have V8s tuned more toward fuel economy... By 2011 we could have smaller V8s... Please stop buying into the media rhetoric that the world is ending because gas costs $1 more per gallon.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I wonder how a turbo HF V6 would compare to the V8 in weight? (for that matter, how does a current regular HF V6 compare to a current corporate pushrod V8 in weight?)

A Turbo V6 would be just as heavy and just as thirsty as an LS V8

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

What's the need for a V8 when a Turbo HF V6 has about the same power ? :AH-HA_wink:

Even more power.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If you can have a 350hp turbo V6 Camaro in a lighter body rather than a 400hp V8 Camaro in a heavier body, wouldn't you want the lighter vehicle?

It's not going to be lighter.

The platform will have to be engineered with heavier components for the added power either way and the Turbo V6 will be just as heavy.

And FWIW, no. I'd choose the V8 anyday.

[Duncan]

I have not been around for a while (job search, long story, don't ask). However, I will refer everyone to my sig line...

[carman21]

Has this been confirmed about the Zetas elsewhere yet? I've not see it. Just curious. Thanks

Edited June 13, 2008 by carman21

[Duncan]

It's not going to be lighter.

The platform will have to be engineered with heavier components for the added power either way and the Turbo V6 will be just as heavy.

And FWIW, no. I'd choose the V8 anyday.

I have to agree, as the V8 is kinda the whole point of the Camaro.

My only compromise would be the choice of an automatic over a stick, since that's probably the only way to get DOD and the extra economy it provides.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Duncan

[MRDETROITMETAL]

Here is the deal bros'...unless you got 50- -100K to spend you are NOT gett'in a RWD V8 from GM....and IMO rightfully so. Buick & Chevy do NOT need that,...now a V6 RWD sedan would be nice for them,...and GM will bring the Alpha cars out too, RWD smaller sedans and Thank GOD ...coupes !!!...THAT is where the money is, The Camaro, Challenger Mustang is the only viable exception here...those cars will sell on Name Value...but most of them will be sedate pony cars like the V6 Mustang...which BTW I have one !!!...and it is a GREAT little car....No I don't drive it my girlfriend does !!!!

I drive my Corvette or I just WALK with my Pit Bull !!!...lol.

[Guest aatbloke]

QUOTE(aatbloke @ May 28 2008, 12:06 PM) *

Vauxhall Motors Limited is a private limited company registered in England & Wales with Companies House, and a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors. Its share capital consists of both ordinary and preference shares. The Vauxhall brand name and logo are owned by Vauxhall Motors Limited.

Buick is merely a registered brand name owned by General Motors. It is not a separate legal entity in its own right.

Where can I buy Vauxhall stock? :rotflmao:

You can't - I said private limited company.

Edited August 10, 2008 by aatbloke

[Robert Hall]

QUOTE(aatbloke @ May 28 2008, 12:06 PM) *

Vauxhall Motors Limited is a private limited company registered in England & Wales with Companies House, and a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors. Its share capital consists of both ordinary and preference shares. The Vauxhall brand name and logo are owned by Vauxhall Motors Limited.

You have said that 100 times...no one cares.

[Guest aatbloke]

Wrong... Toyota got where it is today by building an IMAGE of reliability. Toyota could sell a Chinese car in america and STILL get people to pay a premium just because of the name. It's not about the product, it's about the name and the image associated with the name.

That image comes from its reputation - and the Corolla small family car in particular, which is why it has sold more units than any other production car. This car had an economical four cylinder engine which was as tough as old boots - it simply ran and ran and ran. I've heard stories from North America, Australia and Europe of these cars running even with barely any oil in the sump. Compared to other manufacturers from America and Europe back in the 70s and 80s, nobody came close in this segment. That's the iron-clad foundation upon which Toyota has built its reputation.

Edited August 10, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

You have said that 100 times...no one cares.

I was responding to PCS - just one of the many dreamers who divorce themselves from reality on here.

Edited August 10, 2008 by aatbloke

[balthazar]

>>"This car had an economical four cylinder engine which was as tough as old boots - it simply ran and ran and ran. I've heard stories from North America, Australia and Europe of these cars running even with barely any oil in the sump. Compared to other manufacturers from America and Europe back in the 70s and 80s, nobody came close in this segment."<<

Never heard of the Slant Six, huh?

Nor the small-block Chevy?

Edited August 10, 2008 by balthazar

[Guest aatbloke]

>>"This car had an economical four cylinder engine which was as tough as old boots - it simply ran and ran and ran. I've heard stories from North America, Australia and Europe of these cars running even with barely any oil in the sump. Compared to other manufacturers from America and Europe back in the 70s and 80s, nobody came close in this segment."<<

Never heard of the Slant Six, huh?

Nor the small-block Chevy?

Both of which may have been "small economical four cylinder engines" to Americans - but not to the rest of the world. Toyota's reputation was pretty much gained from a single model small family car sold throughout the world. And since I was referring to the Corolla's market segment, please don't tell me that Chevrolet's Cavalier was anything like as good - ever.

Edited August 10, 2008 by aatbloke

[Blake Noble]

I was responding to PCS - just one of the many dreamers who divorce themselves from reality on here.

Let's put it this way: GM is Vauxhall's parent company, correct? Well, let's just say that one day GM decides that the Vauxhall Company will be closing its doors to cut costs and Opel cars will be sold in the UK in their place. Does Vauxhall's status as a company mean anything here? No, it does not.

Honestly, Vauxhall is nothing more than another brand at GM. I know it might technically be a company, but don't let that fool you. Vauxhall's status as a company will do nothing in the way of saving it from being closed down like, say, GMC if GM ever sees fit to close that brand down. Vauxhall's status as a company does not mean that they could fight GM if management wanted to totally shut the remains of Vauxhall down and remain in business. GM has total control over Vauxhall. GM is Vauxhall, Vauxhall is GM.

In the end, I think PCS is ultimately correct here.

That's all I'm going to say regarding this for quite some time. I have no desire to further argue about this. It's just a back and forth battle between the reality of a situation and a few tactical facts.

Edited August 10, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Guest aatbloke]

Let's put it this way: GM is Vauxhall's parent company, correct? Well, let's just say that one day GM decides that the Vauxhall Company will be closing its doors to cut costs and Opel cars will be sold in the UK in their place. Does Vauxhall's status as a company mean anything here? No, it does not.

Of course GM has the power to wind up any subsidiary - but why would it in this case? How would costs be saved exactly? Vauxhall and Opel products are built at the same plants. Why would GM decide to close a subsidiary which is an established marque in this market? And what about the contract with Renault? Where do you think that production would shift to? Unless Vauxhall - as a subsidiary company - operated a continued loss for any length of time as a result of poor sales, then not only would it be wound down, but it would be pointless branding Opel products in the UK since the cars weren't selling (as Vauxhalls) in the first place. PCS couldn't answer these questions either, instead resorting to one of his duck, dive and change-the-subject routines.

Honestly, Vauxhall is nothing more than another brand at GM. I know it might technically be a company, but don't let that fool you. Vauxhall's status as a company will do nothing in the way of saving it from being closed down like, say, GMC if GM ever sees fit to close that brand down. Vauxhall's status as a company does not mean that they could fight GM if management wanted to totally shut the remains of Vauxhall down and remain in business. GM has total control over Vauxhall. GM is Vauxhall, Vauxhall is GM.

I'm not fooled - but then again, I don't sit in a bedroom commenting about a market I know little about 3,000 miles away, either. If GM wanted rid of GMC, it simply screws up the brand patent. To formally wind up a company in another country is a more complex process, and there would also be issues such as the possibility of an MBO to consider. That wouldn't stem job losses, but it would maintain the company's existence.

In the end, I think PCS is ultimately correct here.

That's all I'm going to say regarding this for quite some time. I have no desire to further argue about this. It's just a back and forth battle between the reality of a situation and a few tactical facts.

I have no desire to argue with another ignorant/arrogant American teenager either. Just because Vauxhall means nothing to Americans, it doesn't mean it isn't important to this market. I am quite sure that only the most educated American car enthusiasts are aware that Vauxhall's success depends largely on supplying the company car market in the UK, the world's largest such market. Over the past ten years, Vauxhall has gained more of that market from Ford of Europe. As such, this is an important marque and company. If it wasn't, GME wouldn't have made the investment to convert Ellesmere Port to Delta II production - since the UK is likely to be Astra mk6's largest market.

At seventeen years of age, I'm quite sure you think you know all there is to know about everything in this world - but you do not. I personally don't give a toss what you choose to talk about - you're completely out of your depth regarding knowledge of both Vauxhall and the UK car market.

Edited August 10, 2008 by aatbloke

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yawnnnn, still hiding behind your little piece of legal paper? You and I both know GM could squash Vauxhall in the blink of an eye, hell GME could as well. Why close it? Hmmmm, think of all the money GM could save on badge engineering alone, move whatever production to continental Europe, where Opel assembly plants are under utilized. I could think of a few more, but that will be enough for me to start off with, especially since GM is looking to save every penny.

Still calling Americans ignorant and arrogant, the only one I see here that's ignorant and arrogant is you. Were you unloved as a child? Perhaps picked last for the cricket team? What is your major maladjustment? Inquiring minds would like to know!

[SuperSport623]

At seventeen years of age, I'm quite sure you think you know all there is to know about everything in this world - but you do not. I personally don't give a toss what you choose to talk about - you're completely out of your depth regarding knowledge of both Vauxhall and the UK car market.

comments like this are totally unnessecary... i believe you can explain your point with out degrading comments pointed toward another just trying to defend his side of the situation. i understand how you could be a bit annoyed at PCS's way of.... posting... but YellowJacket deserves some respect around here... yet you, my friend, have shown noone on this board any respect, and presented no reason to be respected yourself

[ehaase]

yet you, my friend, have shown noone on this board any respect, and presented no reason to be respected yourself

For what it's worth, aatbloke's logic and high level of intelligence has presented many reasons for me to respect him. I hope he stays around here for a long time.

[Guest aatbloke]

comments like this are totally unnessecary... i believe you can explain your point with out degrading comments pointed toward another just trying to defend his side of the situation. i understand how you could be a bit annoyed at PCS's way of.... posting... but YellowJacket deserves some respect around here... yet you, my friend, have shown noone on this board any respect, and presented no reason to be respected yourself

I haven't worked in this market - as well as others - all these years to have some teenager from 3,000 miles with no obvious knowledge of this market dictate anything to me and then have the audacity to state that he doesn't intend discussing the matter again. It's complete and utter bollocks.

[SuperSport623]

i have no problem explaining your stance and knowledge of the car market....but if you could pose your posts in a less demeaning and arrogant way, i think all would appreciate it

[Guest aatbloke]

Yawnnnn, still hiding behind your little piece of legal paper? You and I both know GM could squash Vauxhall in the blink of an eye, hell GME could as well. Why close it? Hmmmm, think of all the money GM could save on badge engineering alone, move whatever production to continental Europe, where Opel assembly plants are under utilized. I could think of a few more, but that will be enough for me to start off with, especially since GM is looking to save every penny.

You're a joke. The statutory redundancy cost of Vauxhall workers alone (SRP is a legal requirement under UK employment law for everyone over age 20 and who has worked with an employer for 2 years or more) would far outweigh the cost of making plastic faux-chromium Vauxhall badges for many, many years. The UK has the largest company car market in the world - GM and GME know this - so it's hardly likely to move all Vauxhall production to continental Europe. GME has rationalised plenty of its plants Europe-wide over the past decade. And given that GM is "looking to save every penny", it's done a fine job investing developing a new Vauxhall logo and equipping Ellesmere Port for the Delta II platform.

Still calling Americans ignorant and arrogant, the only one I see here that's ignorant and arrogant is you. Were you unloved as a child? Perhaps picked last for the cricket team? What is your major maladjustment? Inquiring minds would like to know!

And all I see in you is a complete liar who BS's so much on here, he has no respect even for his own countrymen. Which car are you now driving to Scotland in? Is it the fabled Swiss-registered pre-production W427 which you want the general public to witness over four countries but not the posters on Cheers & Gears?

Edited August 11, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

i have no problem explaining your stance and knowledge of the car market....but if you could pose your posts in a less demeaning and arrogant way, i think all would appreciate it

Really? While accepting Carbiz's comments that "all accountants should be shot" as being normal behaviour?

[Guest aatbloke]

For what it's worth, aatbloke's logic and high level of intelligence has presented many reasons for me to respect him. I hope he stays around here for a long time.

I appreciate the compliment. I've had several people PM me stating that they've pretty much given up posting here because of the group of hardliners which lurk here, but support me speaking out against them.

[daves87rs]

comments like this are totally unnessecary... i believe you can explain your point with out degrading comments pointed toward another just trying to defend his side of the situation. i understand how you could be a bit annoyed at PCS's way of.... posting... but YellowJacket deserves some respect around here... yet you, my friend, have shown noone on this board any respect, and presented no reason to be respected yourself

I'm going to agree with SS on this one....if you are going to keep blasting people like that....the only point you are going to make for other posters here is one of an ass....

Granted, while many of us may not agree with Aatbloke-BUT we have to keep it civil guys.....

I'm still wondering why this thread is even open....

Edited August 11, 2008 by daves87rs

[Guest aatbloke]

Granted, while many of us may not agree with Aatbloke-BUT we have to keep it civil guys.....

I don't care whether you agree with me or not. When it comes to the UK and European arenas, I do know what I'm talking about. From this side of the pond, it's easy to spot those who do also, and just as easy to weadle out those who don't.

[Intrepidation]

Respect, that's all that there needs to be. Show some actual respect for each other instead of throwing insults around, because all it does is further degrade the site. It isn't about who is right or wrong, it can be demonstrated without insults.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Guest aatbloke]

Respect, that's all that there needs to be. Show some actual respect for each other instead of throwing insults around, because all it does is further degrade the site. It isn't about who is right or wrong, it can be demonstrated without insults.

Right - such as Carbiz' and Croc's derogatory comments towards accountants and solicitors. I don't see an awful lot of respect from GM hardliners here towards competitors such as Toyota, either.

Still, when it suits ...