GM Officially Cancels Zeta Buick

[turbo200]

It wouldn't take $20K worth of technology to increase Zeta's efficiency. Any one of thoes technologies could be used to bring Zeta into the 30+ MPG club, at no more than a $5000 increase in MSRP.

even looking at a 4.0 DI +BAS V8 engine, across the scales, amortized over larger volumes [say 200k+ year], I really don't see how that should add more than $2000 to the price. BAS II is on its way, the current BAS is sold for a $2000 premium, at pitiful volumes, almost as though they don't actually want to sell hybrids [yet another point where I hit my head on the wall and yell stupid GM]. the tech for DI already exists, it just needs to be applied to a OHV engine.

I go with the V8 because the case for it is very compelling, good amount of torque always available, already very fuel efficient in supersized non-assisted displacements, cut the size, use other tech to increase mpg, limit the hp and torque, implement DI, BAS II will do better efficiency, offer a hi po version and a regular version, and it's a large car already and sold as a luxury car at Buick and Cadillac so at least there, this system could be standard and included in the price. The same goes for across the globe, where these cars are already sold at huge price premiums.

it's called critical thinking. which GM seems to lack completely.......most of the time.

[hyperv6]

Here is one thing we have over looked in all of our over reactions.

There was a note about SIgma and Zeta being merged. GM said no Zeta but they have not said anyting about a Hybrid of the two being its own platform.

GM could have something that will used some of what they already have to reduce cost and weight to still give us something out of all of this.

Lets let the people at GM talk first before we write anything off. How many times was the Zeta was thought to be gone before we did get the Camaro, Holdensm Vauxhaull, and G8?

[Drew Dowdell]

I think you know the answer to that question.

Because GM got one <and only one> Epsilon good enough that it is now being compared favorably to the Camry and Accord and miles ahead of the Altima. So now GM is splooging all over itself to make more FWD appliance vehicles <though the 'bu does have character for an appliance>, while forgetting that it can continue to make appliances while still producing cars that the rest of us want.

[regfootball]

The problem is, given the tools and technoligies that GM has in its arsenal righ now, we can have our cake and eat it too. There's no reason that a Zeta vehicle, even a V8-powered Zeta, can't be so equipped that it can pull down 30-35mpg highway. It can't take that much effort to put AFM, DI, and two-mode hybrid systems into current-gen Zeta vehicles to make them more efficient while a more lightweight successor is developed. And I'm sure BAS could be used without too much engineering. The fact GM has the technology and can roll it out next model year if it so desired, but won't is nothing short of maddening.

Here's a somewhat surprising tidbit - Despite being heavier by some 300lb, the V6-powered Zeta G8 (with one fewer gear in the tranny) gets nearly identical mileage to the V6-powered Epsilon Malibu. The two cars get 17mpg city, and the 'bu bests the G8 in highway fuel economy by a whopping 1mpg (26-25). Zeta's been called a fat heavy pig, but in spite of its weight it can underpin vehicles that are every bit as efficient (if not moreso) than a comparably-powered Epsilon. So, why aren't any Epsilon vehicles on the chopping block...hmmmm?

having driven the v6 aura and v6 g8 i would say by the seat of my pants that the g8 might be as much as a full second slower 0-60, due to weight and one less cog. so your mpg argument holds water well, but the epsilon car i do think is quicker. If GM could fix that issue with the g8 then i would agree with you fully.

Edited June 2, 2008 by regfootball

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

No one said chang but the fact is understand it is a buisness and not just a company to provide for you and you only. It is about making a buck and a dealer lot of large V8 car is not a wise buisness move at this time.

You know.. Funny thing is that I don't really want a large RWD car. I'd much rather have something (a Camaro or GTO) the size of Alpha. But once again, it seems that GM will give me half of what I want by not engineering the car to offer a V8.

So it is only a GM problem? Few of them can afford a new Civic and they are driving old one's Mom and Dad bought for them because that is what they drive.

As for the older cars they can afford 4th Gen Camaro's but many do not want them and pass them and Mustangs up for Civic and used WRX Subie.

Your dealing with a generation that has learn from Mom and Dad to buy a 4N car. THis is going to take time to change as even now as GM has cars as good many still will not bite.

I disagree...

Many studies have shown that Gen Y and younger are MUCH more trusting/accepting of the Detroit automakers than the Boomers and Gen X. And this is where GM is screwing up. They HAVE a fresh start, but they're not willing to "grow" the market into their products (Much like the Japanese did with Gen X)

The bottom line is we got the two Zeta's that matter the most. the rest would be nice but are not make or break cars. If it was easy and cheaper to convert the Zeta to GM's future needs they would. I am sure the last thing they really want to do is drop all the work they have already done.

And that is where I disagree again and why I'm b*tching so much about it. GM is dropping the platform because of politics, not because of a lack of resources/engineering. PCS himself has said as much.

The bottom line is the average new car buyers today do not buy out of emotion, they buy out of what they can offord pice wise and fuel economy wise.

Durable goods are bought on emotion. It's not the same emotion as the 1960s, but it is emotion. A lot of people buy Acuras because of the technology that they LOVE. A lot of people buy Minis because they LOVE the way the cars drive. A lot of people buy imports because of their morbid HATRED for domestics. Sure, logic matters, but emotion seals the deal. Why else would design be so important if that weren't the case?

You can be upset things did not work out but we hear this song and damce so often form some here it gets old. Real old. You don't have to agree with it, you just have to deal with it.

As a GM fan, I'm supposed to be a critic. Yet, when GM 'fanboys' like 68 and I show our passion for something that GM is doing wrong, all of the sudden no one wants to hear it.

Turbo -- Finally, another voice of reason.

Edited June 2, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It wouldn't take $20K worth of technology to increase Zeta's efficiency. Any one of thoes technologies could be used to bring Zeta into the 30+ MPG club, at no more than a $5000 increase in MSRP.

Not to mention, if people are as hellbent on gas mileage as hyper insists. They'll actually PAY the $5000 extra to be able to NOT compromise the size of their vehicles.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Here is one thing we have over looked in all of our over reactions.

There was a note about SIgma and Zeta being merged. GM said no Zeta but they have not said anyting about a Hybrid of the two being its own platform.

I thought about that... But where does it leave Pontiac? I'm sure the ren center would be filled with bitching if "lowly Pontiac" were allowed to ride on Sigma (Which is where the G8 & GTO should've been in the first place) And how affordable will these cars be?

Lets let the people at GM talk first before we write anything off. How many times was the Zeta was thought to be gone before we did get the Camaro, Holdensm Vauxhaull, and G8?

They are talking. One of them annoys us daily here at C&G.

[Satty]

I wonder if some of the higher ups at GM read posts by "enthusiasts" and thinks "god, we'd be better off alienating these people" because the way some of you guys act like the sky is falling, I could see them doing that.

[Camino LS6]

I wonder if some of the higher ups at GM read posts by "enthusiasts" and thinks "god, we'd be better off alienating these people" because the way some of you guys act like the sky is falling, I could see them doing that.

I'm sorry Satty but that is an absurd statement.

I'm not simply an enthusiast - I am a loyal buyer.

And, that's a demographic GM can't afford to alienate.

FOG, Z., and Turbo have the right of this debate.

I would add that cost-effective alternatives to the tanking SUVs GM build could also be zeta-based. GM is blowing a golden opportunity to get a serious return on investment out of Zeta after commiting major funds to it. Those that think this platform "has to go" are the ones with narrow minds and little vision.

[Camino LS6]

Just some Zeta capabilities:

Multiple wheelbases

Multiple widths

Sedan, wagon,coupe,vert,sportscoupe,truck,crew cab truck,crossover: all possible (i can think of more variants as well)

RWD and AWD

4cyl. 6cyl. 8cyl capable

Diesel, hybrid, flex-fuel,gas, NA and boosted powerplants

Rave reviews in the press

2nd fastest-selling sedan in the US

Style, passion, and performance

realistic pricing

already sold on multiple continents

to be built on a brand new flex line in NA

Race winning

Viable and affordable alternative to BMW

Can be differentiated among the brands so that "re-badge" never comes into play

Can offer an alternative to the SUV

No brainer in my book.

[hyperv6]

I thought about that... But where does it leave Pontiac? I'm sure the ren center would be filled with bitching if "lowly Pontiac" were allowed to ride on Sigma (Which is where the G8 & GTO should've been in the first place) And how affordable will these cars be?

They are talking. One of them annoys us daily here at C&G.

Let me clairify, let the ones do the talking that have the whole picture not just a few pixels.

[Camino LS6]

Seems to me that "the whole picture" should contain a variety of cars.

[AM6_Cutlass]

If Buick isn't getting a Zeta sedan, they better be working on something else. Buick is starved for models as it is.

[Camino LS6]

I think this thread is worth re-visiting:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...+I+would+deploy

[regfootball]

IIRC, zeta is not AWD capable. major flaw for winter states

Just some Zeta capabilities:

Multiple wheelbases

Multiple widths

Sedan, wagon,coupe,vert,sportscoupe,truck,crew cab truck,crossover: all possible (i can think of more variants as well)

RWD and AWD

4cyl. 6cyl. 8cyl capable

Diesel, hybrid, flex-fuel,gas, NA and boosted powerplants

Rave reviews in the press

2nd fastest-selling sedan in the US

Style, passion, and performance

realistic pricing

already sold on multiple continents

to be built on a brand new flex line in NA

Race winning

Viable and affordable alternative to BMW

Can be differentiated among the brands so that "re-badge" never comes into play

Can offer an alternative to the SUV

No brainer in my book.

[Camino LS6]

IIRC, zeta is not AWD capable. major flaw for winter states

No.

It was engineered to make AWD possible - it simply hasn't yet been done (cost concerns).

EDIT: Perhaps the crossovers could provide the volume to make AWD cost-effective.

[vonVeezelsnider]

And, that's a demographic GM can't afford to alienate.

FOG, Z., and Turbo have the right of this debate.

You're right, they can't do that... There has to be give and take in this situation. Some good RWD Product, some good FWD/AWD product for those like myself who would prefer that layout.

[Camino LS6]

You're right, they can't do that... There has to be give and take in this situation. Some good RWD Product, some good FWD/AWD product for those like myself who would prefer that layout.

And in a variety of sizes and configurations (bodystyles).

[Chicagoland]

Welcome to the real world fan boys, who really expected gas to be forever cheap? And that "the boys will be back in town" driving all new GM RWD cars from all size segments?. As predcited by may with old GM car names as their screen names

[Blake Noble]

Welcome to the real world fan boys, who really expected gas to be forever cheap? And that "the boys will be back in town" driving all new GM RWD cars from all size segments?. As predcited by may with old GM car names as their screen names

You know that you should not drink the bong water, right?

[regfootball]

No.

It was engineered to make AWD possible - it simply hasn't yet been done (cost concerns).

EDIT: Perhaps the crossovers could provide the volume to make AWD cost-effective.

GM's continual problem, always 'cost concerns'. what does it cost them to lose a sale?

cost concerns = short sighted, narrow minded. fusion has awd for crying out loud. subaru and suzuki compacts do. vibe does. cailber does. saab does now even. sheesh.

i also read somewhere where i think it was lutz even said GM was not going to make zetas with awd, no plans for it.

Edited June 3, 2008 by regfootball

[z28luvr01]

Welcome to the real world fan boys, who really expected gas to be forever cheap? And that "the boys will be back in town" driving all new GM RWD cars from all size segments?. As predcited by may with old GM car names as their screen names

You try so hard to stereotype everyone that argues for high-performance rear drive cars as either living in the past, a redneck, or some other derogatory connotation, yet you fail to understand that the apparent premature death of RWD at GM is only a small portion of the unrest in this thread.

The problem is, GM has everything it needs to make a lineup of cars that is more frugal with gas without sacrificing anything in terms of performance or comfort. Rear-drive cars ARE doable at GM right now despite the current climate. As already said the technologies are here to make it happen. GM can innovate (like Ford will with its EcoBoost 3.5L V6) but instead is apparently scrambling and, ultimately, cowering. In case you forgot, GM tried playing it safe and flooding the market with FWD appliances in the 80s and 90s that did nothing to stand out from their Japanese competition, and look where it got them. Do you honestly think that going back to that approach is going to fare any better this time, with the market as crowded as it is, to the point where Hyundai is closer to offering an affordable volume RWD car than GM is? Get serious.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

This is sucky news that still hasn't sunk through my head. So what will Impala and Lucerne ride on now? Stretched Epsilon? I hope they have awesome styling....Invicta concept and Malibu are good starts, but can they keep the styling train moving?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I wonder if some of the higher ups at GM read posts by "enthusiasts" and thinks "god, we'd be better off alienating these people" because the way some of you guys act like the sky is falling, I could see them doing that.

And that's why they shouldn't be "higher ups"

Seriously, how hard does GM hav to work to sell ME a car? To betray people like me, to that extent, is just BAD business sense.

And what, since I voice my opinion, I'm all of the sudden below you and the 'average' (Buy a G6 with a $3000 discount) buyer. Oh wait, I forgot who I was talking to.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Welcome to the real world fan boys, who really expected gas to be forever cheap? And that "the boys will be back in town" driving all new GM RWD cars from all size segments?. As predcited by may with old GM car names as their screen names

LOL.

Yeah, because by wanting GM to offer 3 RWD, traditional models of the 60 something models its offers is 'out of touch with reality'

I'm not really like you in that I don't have to worry about the price of gas.

[Satty]

Its not about you, its about money, and there is money to be made with FWD blandmobiles, Toyota and Honda have proven that beyond a reasonable doubt. GM put their money into trucks and SUVs, which worked for a while, but didn't give them nearly the cushion of cash that Toyota has.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You try so hard to stereotype everyone that argues for high-performance rear drive cars as either living in the past, a redneck, or some other derogatory connotation,

I know, right...

I guess all of those coveted Lexus, MB, BMW and Mini sales go to redneck fanboys too...

yet you fail to understand that the apparent premature death of RWD at GM is only a small portion of the unrest in this thread.

The problem is, GM has everything it needs to make a lineup of cars that is more frugal with gas without sacrificing anything in terms of performance or comfort. Rear-drive cars ARE doable at GM right now despite the current climate. As already said the technologies are here to make it happen. GM can innovate (like Ford will with its EcoBoost 3.5L V6) but instead is apparently scrambling and, ultimately, cowering. In case you forgot, GM tried playing it safe and flooding the market with FWD appliances in the 80s and 90s that did nothing to stand out from their Japanese competition, and look where it got them. Do you honestly think that going back to that approach is going to fare any better this time, with the market as crowded as it is, to the point where Hyundai is closer to offering an affordable volume RWD car than GM is? Get serious.

I agree... And we'll see... Anyone else want to help me make funeral arrangements for the company?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Its not about you, its about money, and there is money to be made with FWD blandmobiles, Toyota and Honda have proven that beyond a reasonable doubt. GM put their money into trucks and SUVs, which worked for a while, but didn't give them nearly the cushion of cash that Toyota has.

GM also threw money at FWD cars that entire time and we see how well that worked.

Besides, I've never asserted that the FWD programs at GM should suffer. Hell, they need to pull the volume and pay the bills so people like me can have the choice of RWD.

GM will throw ALL of it's money into FWD vehicles in the coming years and I'll bet you my left arm that their impact on that market will be minimal at best. It'll be the story of VW all over again. Lots of cool and nice cars that nobody outside of a niche of buyers even considers.

Malibu is one awesome car and I love every one that I see, but how seriously is it impacting the segment? Not very, if you looks at the numbers.

Edited June 3, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Satty]

Ok, its also about using that money wisely. The Intrigue is the only real CamCord sales thief GM had between 1990 (arbitrary year, didn't have anything really good before '90 either) and the 2008 Malibu, everything else was really half-assed.

[ocnblu]

Those who cannot separate RWD from some silly redneck stigma need look no further than a BMW or Mercedes or Infiniti or Rolls-Royce or Bentley or Porsche showroom... all exclusively RWD/AWD lineups. Aspirational brands. Uncompromising brands. Brands to emulate, at least at the upper end of your lineup. For GM to give up wholesale on RWD means they give up on being a contender for customers who expect as little compromise as possible. RWD Caprice, G8, Lucerne and DTS should be at the top of their respective model lineups. It's only right.

[Camino LS6]

One of the many reasons GM lost their tail over the last few decades was because they abandoned RWD and the buyers who expect it in favor of a near 100% FWD lineup that no one wanted. They appear to be poised to make the same "all the eggs in one basket" error yet again.

That's just stupid.

It is surrender mentality.

[turbo200]

I think the bottom line going forward with regards to the FWDv.RWD debate is this: a desirable car can be spun off any platform, FWD or RWD, but there are designs inherently better suited to be RWD, performance cars small and large will be better served to have great balance achievable through RWD and large cars are much better suited to RWD to achieve a nice balance and have less plow and load on the front wheels. This is a big part of why you have a Volvo which is still a second-tier luxury make and you have a BMW which is a worldwide best seller, accepted as an industry benchmark.

That's the argument for RWD cars in GM. RWD and FWD would succeed to really differentiate the brands and give them more breathing space, more distinct identities, and more likeable qualities [i.e. better handling/composed suspension/all the good things coming forth with the G8]. But that doesn't mean that everything FWD GM produces will be garbage or that they should be looked at through the eyes of derision and resentment. However, on that note, I've never seen a FWD GM that lives up to the wonderful FWD chassis Honda can produce, but hardly anybody can do FWD like Honda can [there is a discernible effect on buyers that a solid chassis and good engine feel have on sales; in fact a great part of the 'import legacy' that led to the current 'import dominion' was in fact well built cars that drove extremely well].

We still have not seen the effect RWD would have on a small car at GM either[aside from Solstice which is just a niche, not a popular bodystyle, like a sedan], and given as most people here deal only with GM cars day in and day out, it's hard for most to appreciate the difference. Visit a place where people are steeped in RWD of all kinds [like a BMW board] and the contrast in attitude, vehicle satisfaction, and overall subject matter may be startling to some here.

[Chicagoland]

"In case you forgot, GM tried playing it safe and flooding the market with FWD appliances in the 80s and 90s that did nothing to stand out from their Japanese competition, and look where it got them. Do you honestly think that going back to that approach is going to fare any better this time, with the market as crowded as it is, to the point where Hyundai is closer to offering an affordable volume RWD car than GM is? Get serious."

Ummmm, since when is $44,000 "affordable"??? RWD Hyundai see here!That is the price of the new Hyundai super duper RWD car!!!! I am sure lots of GM B body loyalists will line up for that!

Also, Toyota got where it is today by "playing it safe" with reliable, economical FWD appliance cars!! Not every car buyer wants a Drag racer that reminds them of the 1960's. Sure Euro luxo boats are RWD, but the average European isn't driving them, #1 car over there is VW Golf.

GM has Caddy, Vette, and Camaro for RWD loyalists. So, indeed they are not putting all eggs in one basket.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Chicagoland

[Camino LS6]

"In case you forgot, GM tried playing it safe and flooding the market with FWD appliances in the 80s and 90s that did nothing to stand out from their Japanese competition, and look where it got them. Do you honestly think that going back to that approach is going to fare any better this time, with the market as crowded as it is, to the point where Hyundai is closer to offering an affordable volume RWD car than GM is? Get serious."

Ummmm, since when is $44,000 "affordable"??? RWD Hyundai see here!That is the price of the new Hyundai super duper RWD car!!!! I am sure lots of GM B body loyalists will line up for that!

Also, Toyota got where it is today by "playing it safe" with reliable, economical FWD appliance cars!! Not every car buyer wants a Drag racer that reminds them of the 1960's. Sure Euro luxo boats are RWD, but the average European isn't driving them, #1 car over there is VW Golf.

GM has Caddy, Vette, and Camaro for RWD loyalists. So, indeed they are not putting all eggs in one basket.

Rediculous argument.

GM is huge, and has the most brands - clearly they should offer the widest variety. How many versions of FWD sedan can one company sell?

[The O.C.]

GM's continual problem, always 'cost concerns'. what does it cost them to lose a sale?

UGH....speaking of GM "cost concerns".....

I can't TELL you how many Escalade deals I lose to Navigator, Expedition King Ranch, M-B GL450/550, and others.....due to the STUPID 3rd-row seat that doesn't fold into the floor.....

[Chicagoland]

"GM is huge, and has the most brands - clearly they should offer the widest variety. How many versions of FWD sedan can one company sell?"

Umm, that is one of GM's biggest PROBLEMS, ;-)

Anyway, the idea that RWD will 'comeback' as it did in the 60's was never going to fly. Gearheads with old RWD cars want new, but then don't buy. Only sports or luxury RWD cars will be around.

[Blake Noble]

Ummmm, since when is $44,000 "affordable"??? RWD Hyundai see here!That is the price of the new Hyundai super duper RWD car!!!! I am sure lots of GM B body loyalists will line up for that!

Don't you know when to quit?

The Hyundai Genesis coupe will be rear-drive and have a basic price of around twenty grand.

Also, Toyota got where it is today by "playing it safe" with reliable, economical FWD appliance cars!! Not every car buyer wants a Drag racer that reminds them of the 1960's. Sure Euro luxo boats are RWD, but the average European isn't driving them, #1 car over there is VW Golf.

And not every car buyer wants a mundane, run-of-the-mill, front-drive mainstream appliance that can be found in every driveway across America. Not every car buyer wants a Toyota.

This isn't Europe, by the way. Or does everywhere you go look the same when you view it from under the same rock?

GM has Caddy, Vette, and Camaro for RWD loyalists. So, indeed they are not putting all eggs in one basket.

Cadillac is unafforable to car buyers in my price bracket. Corvette is much of the same as well as unpractical. Camaro is more my speed and fits my criteria perfect, but what if I have a family someday? A nice rear-drive sedan sure would be nice if I have to buy something to supplement the Camaro.

[regfootball]

UGH....speaking of GM "cost concerns".....

I can't TELL you how many Escalade deals I lose to Navigator, Expedition King Ranch, M-B GL450/550, and others.....due to the STUPID 3rd-row seat that doesn't fold into the floor.....

NBA players like room in the 3rd row too i guess

[z28luvr01]

"In case you forgot, GM tried playing it safe and flooding the market with FWD appliances in the 80s and 90s that did nothing to stand out from their Japanese competition, and look where it got them. Do you honestly think that going back to that approach is going to fare any better this time, with the market as crowded as it is, to the point where Hyundai is closer to offering an affordable volume RWD car than GM is? Get serious."

Ummmm, since when is $44,000 "affordable"??? RWD Hyundai see here!That is the price of the new Hyundai super duper RWD car!!!! I am sure lots of GM B body loyalists will line up for that!

Also, Toyota got where it is today by "playing it safe" with reliable, economical FWD appliance cars!! Not every car buyer wants a Drag racer that reminds them of the 1960's. Sure Euro luxo boats are RWD, but the average European isn't driving them, #1 car over there is VW Golf.

GM has Caddy, Vette, and Camaro for RWD loyalists. So, indeed they are not putting all eggs in one basket.

It's absolutely pointless arguing with you because you're so far off base, but I come from an Italian family so I'm no stranger to pointless arguments.

$44000??? Try $19,900.

So you're apparently going to continue with the "Rear drive = 1960s dragster/gas guzzler" mentality. I suppose every 3 series or C class buyer is a gearhead. So is every who buys a Solstice, Sky, 300, G35/37, IS250/350, or Miata. Yeah, that's it - I could just picture 10 of these cars parked in a Dairy Queen parking lot on a Thursday night with the owners standing over their engine compartments with the hood open making grunting noises and scratching themselves. Yeah, you're dead on. GM doesn't need to go after these customers. They're just living in the past anyway.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, the best way to win (and keep) customers is to offer a product or service that stands out among all the others. Otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to choose your company. Why buy something that's 'Every bit as good as...' when you can just buy the real thing. GM fielding only front drive cars in "affordable" market segments immediately puts them in the middle of the pack instead of in front. Introducing a mix of RWD and FWD in every segment would be at this point unheard of in the industry, and would enable GM to make a name for itself and snag a new generation of loyalists that 40 years from now your grandchild will accuse them of being stuck in the past.

[Robert Hall]

Rediculous argument.

GM is huge, and has the most brands - clearly they should offer the widest variety. How many versions of FWD sedan can one company sell?

Quite a few, as GM has proven over the last 25 years (their era of FWD generics).

[Robert Hall]

Anyway, the idea that RWD will 'comeback' as it did in the 60's was never going to fly. Gearheads with old RWD cars want new, but then don't buy. Only sports or luxury RWD cars will be around.

As it has been for quite some time...RWD for performance cars, sports cars, and premiums, FWD for the mass market.

[Sixty8panther]

One of the many reasons GM lost their tail over the last few decades was because they abandoned RWD and the buyers who expect it in favor of a near 100% FWD lineup that no one wanted. They appear to be poised to make the same "all the eggs in one basket" error yet again.

That's just stupid.

It is surrender mentality.

Nothing, not even b-pillars or automatic transmission only cars suck as much as FWD.

FWD is like a plague, a nasty, dirty infection that spreads and it MUST be cut out of

the non-&#036;h&#33;box end of the market.

[CARBIZ]

[shakes head] I wonder how many driver's of BMWs actually know how many cylinders, how many hp or whether the vehicle is FWD or RWD. Seriously.

There is no denying that flying around hairpins in a RWD car is a blast. There is no denying that a 5 series BMW will drive circles (literally) around an Impala or Malibu. How many people really give a &#036;h&#33;? How many people who actually own these vehicles could figure out how to drive it at its max?

Anything more than 200 hp is just pissing into the wind, unless you are towing. Thanks to BMW and others, we have wasted 20 years of chasing horsepower up, rather than fuel mileage - and now look at the mess we are in.

In the early '80s, Detroit finally 'got it' and started building more fuel efficient vehicles. Their first attempts were crap, to be sure; however as technology improved, so did the engines and the cars themselves. By the late '80s, 4 cylinders were reliable and becoming fun again.

Then in the '90s, the wheels fell off the cart. Detroit discovered they could foist trucks on us, while Stuttgart decided everyone had to do 0-60 in 5 seconds.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I would head to Arizona and buy the first rock solid '67, '68 or '69 Chrysler 300 I found. With the TNT package, of course. But I am a pragmatist, and for my daily driver, I chose a 4 cylinder. I don't care about showing off on the freeway; in fact, showing off is dangerous because of the jealous crazies out there and the laser-happy cops.

Right now, all we are hearing is reactions. The dust will settle and let's see what is up in 6 months time.

[A Horse With No Name]

[shakes head] I wonder how many driver's of BMWs actually know how many cylinders, how many hp or whether the vehicle is FWD or RWD. Seriously.

There is no denying that flying around hairpins in a RWD car is a blast. There is no denying that a 5 series BMW will drive circles (literally) around an Impala or Malibu. How many people really give a &#036;h&#33;? How many people who actually own these vehicles could figure out how to drive it at its max?

Anything more than 200 hp is just pissing into the wind, unless you are towing. Thanks to BMW and others, we have wasted 20 years of chasing horsepower up, rather than fuel mileage - and now look at the mess we are in.

In the early '80s, Detroit finally 'got it' and started building more fuel efficient vehicles. Their first attempts were crap, to be sure; however as technology improved, so did the engines and the cars themselves. By the late '80s, 4 cylinders were reliable and becoming fun again.

Then in the '90s, the wheels fell off the cart. Detroit discovered they could foist trucks on us, while Stuttgart decided everyone had to do 0-60 in 5 seconds.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I would head to Arizona and buy the first rock solid '67, '68 or '69 Chrysler 300 I found. With the TNT package, of course. But I am a pragmatist, and for my daily driver, I chose a 4 cylinder. I don't care about showing off on the freeway; in fact, showing off is dangerous because of the jealous crazies out there and the laser-happy cops.

Right now, all we are hearing is reactions. The dust will settle and let's see what is up in 6 months time.

Exactly. Fuel economy seems to be selling well for obvious reasons,and 200 horse is plenty for 95% of cars on the planet...

Chris

[Chicagoland]

Some forget that CAFE has been law since 1975, and no GM didnt abandon RWD. They tried to offer hi MPG RWD diesels in the 80's, enough said. Also, where were these so called buyers when GM had B and F bodies for sale?

The LX cars are tanking for Mopar, weren't they supposed to be "the begining of return of all RWD"? And the 300 was outsold by the new Taurus [500] in May. Looks like Ford got its revenge in long run.

Not saying RWD is bad, but to think that "all cars should be RWD"? No way.

[Chicagoland]

"FWD is like a plague, a nasty, dirty infection that spreads and it MUST be cut out of

the non-&#036;h&#33;box end of the market. "

Well, unless someone invents a RWD/V8/BOF car that runs on salt water, plastic grocery bags, dog turd, or used styrofoam, CAFE dictates less '60s' and more compact cars.

[Robert Hall]

Not saying RWD is bad, but to think that "all cars should be RWD"? No way.

FWD for the mass market, RWD for luxury and performance. That's the way it's been for a while, and will likely continue.. the vast majority of drivers don't care how a car handles, a FWD generic is fine for them.

Edited June 8, 2008 by moltar

[Chicagoland]

That has been my point all along, MB, Beemer, etc do not sell 'affordable RWD', and that new Hyundai is no "Asian Caprice". Expecting cheap RWD cars like the old Novas and Chevettes aint gonna happen.

"GM abondoned RWD car buyers"? The B-body was offered until 1996, where were the so called "loyal buyers" then to 'save it'? Same for the old F body. And Ford did keep a RWD big T-Bird til 97, but again, buyers abondoned it for a roomier SUV, etc.

Grand Marquis sales are down to nothing these days, the unibody Sable outsold it last month. Shows that its former loyal buyers are getting too old to drive, or have passed on, sorry, but true.

[z28luvr01]

That has been my point all along, MB, Beemer, etc do not sell 'affordable RWD', and that new Hyundai is no "Asian Caprice". Expecting cheap RWD cars like the old Novas and Chevettes aint gonna happen.

"GM abondoned RWD car buyers"? The B-body was offered until 1996, where were the so called "loyal buyers" then to 'save it'? Same for the old F body. And Ford did keep a RWD big T-Bird til 97, but again, buyers abondoned it for a roomier SUV, etc.

Grand Marquis sales are down to nothing these days, the unibody Sable outsold it last month. Shows that its former loyal buyers are getting too old to drive, or have passed on, sorry, but true.

The B Body was scheduled for an update around 1997-ish, part of which included being certified to use the LS1. GM couldn't build enough Caprices once the Impala came out , and AFAIK the Roadmaster, Fleetwood, and Custom Cruiser didn't do too badly either. GM's decison to kill the B body had less to do with poor sales than it did reallocating resources towards getting a piece of the booming SUV market.

The death of the F body is proof that all trims of a given model line need to be done right, not just the V8 versions. The 3.4L and 3.8L F bodies were slow, lumbering, and wheezy. Those who didn't want to bother with the insurance premiums assocated with a V8 car left the Camaro for other makes. The car also wasn't meant for all body types - for example, at 5'4" I can't find a single comfortable position in a 4th gen F body. If I could, I'd probably own a navy blue metallic Z28 right about now.

[Camino LS6]

Chicagoland: You keep saying "all RWD" and no one here is advocating that! What we are against is all FWD, a strategy that has already proven to be a failure.

The B-body cars were not cancelled due to sales, in fact GM was considering expanding the lineup until the Tahoe became an instant hit and more capacity was desperately needed in a hurry. At the time, GM made about 15k on each Tahoe they built, so the sacrifice was made.

The F-body is a completely different story. It was chronically underfunded, allowed to wither on the vine, not advertised, built at a one-product plant, was too heavily focused on male buyers, was a no-compromise performance car, and the list goes on and on..

But it still managed to be the most bang for the buck performance car on the market, easily outdoing the Mustang and actually besting the Corvette of the day on GM's own test tracks. The 4th gen was not for everyone, but it did an amazing job despite all of the cards stacked against it.

The final blow came from the same incompetent leadership that brought you the demise of Oldsmobile and the financial black hole known as Saturn. To judge RWD generally on the story of these two examples (F and B bodies) is entirely absurd. It is more apt to use them as examples of the casualties of failed management.