GM Officially Cancels Zeta Buick

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Bunk!

GM blew it with Zeta: too little and a decade too late.

Too many delays.

Too much indecision.

Too many course changes.

Too many name changes.

And now, to add insult to injury, they toss Zeta aside while completely ignoring the fact that it can meet the goals that it would need to to remain relevant in the market.

Nothing but bold new product will ever save GM, and yet they toss this wonderful potentail aside in favor of the same old bland crap no one has wanted for decades.

And yes, I'm pissed about it.

Not to mention TONS of investment dollars out the window between this and the Northstar replacement. No wonder the balance sheets look so bad.

[regfootball]

since zeta is sold in AU and the middle east and china i think GM will do ok as far as amortization.

i thought i read where zetas rear suspension isn't even aluminum. WTF? no wonder its heavy.

having driven both the v6 and v8 G8 i will say this, the car at a minimum needs a v6, i don't think a turbo 4 would make for a desirable car. the v6 is not going to create wows. the turbo 4 would draw attention to itself as working way too hard to move the mass. what should happen is a high torque, good mpg 250hp / 280-300 tq direct inject version of the 3.6 which would get better mpg as a base motor, working at low rpms'. then put the 300hp di v6 as the mid level option and then the v8's. personally i would prefer an overhead cam v8, even with the small blocks good power. i like the cammy sound of OHC. the v6/5 speed in the g8 now needs to be refined and made 6 speed and smoother overall, so i can't see how a buzzy four with turbo whine can come off as good in that car.

maybe gm is better off retooling in the future with a newer lighter weight rwd bias car. another of zetas faults, no AWD option. unforgivable if you ask me.

Edited May 30, 2008 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

If Buick sees significant delays in new product; it IS dead. End of story. The public barely accepted a half-assed Cadillac revival, it certainly will not accept a half-assed Buick revival because the 'goodwill' is not there.

WRONG.

Buick will not receive Sigma because Buick cannot sell at the price to justify Sigma. Not to mention, cadillac would NEVER let that happen. They would, as PCS says, whisper into the ear of GME to prevent it. It's a damn wonder that Buick is even ALLOWED top have Alpha. And as long as Alpha is 'homeroomed' at GME, there will be no 'enlarging' because it does not benefit the almighty GME to do so.

The writing is on the wall... Zeta dies, Alpha becomes a euro-pu**y platform for Mini wannabes. GMNA is a subsidiary of GME because the regs are now "the same" GMNA, no longer an important market since GMNA has squandered future product plans and wasted PRECIOUS time will 'make do' with 36 different Epsilons through eventually fewer divisions. (To match their articficially deflated market share, via stupidity) Holden will be folded into GME and will begin offering Daewoos as gas is "surely set to destroy the car culture there too"

Yeah... Because GM can afford to market THAT car enough to change the perception of Buick = Big.

G8 will be phased out as Holden is, as our friend from GME says, "integrated". No way the 'braintrust' at GM will allow this "gas guzzler" to exist given the small amount of money and share it brings in. F5 camaro will be used to condition us that a V6 Camaro is "acceptable", which it is so long as a V8 is available. Then I'd say F6 will phase the V8 out altogether or make it so damn expensive and exclusive that no one can buy it except Vette buyers.

Not a bright future at all... And all because GM refuses to innovate and lead.

Once again, the writing is on the wall... As PCS has stated; Zeta was Lutz baby... Pontiac was Lutz baby... The RWD Impala was Lutz baby... And as PCS has stated, Lutz is no longer running the show. RWD Impala: CANCELED Zeta: Might as well be CANCELED and for all intents and purposes, it looks as if Pontiac is CANCELED as well.

Lutz will see GM through the rollout of the Volt, take credit for it, and parachute out on a golden rainbow. Then the place will fall to hell since the beancounters are at the reigns again.

Oh, but it is... The old culture is alive and well. Look no further than the pages of C&G for that

Malibu is hot, but isn't pulling numbers... Saturn is as cool as a moon rock despite the apparently magical Opel influence.

Ok I see your wisdom.

Let see the rules were changed and oil prices are off the chart [neither GM could have predicted] So GM decides not to put any more money into a over weight car thast would only sell for a few short years to a limited group of buyer?

Zeta may have not completed it mission here but it has done well elsewhere and it has paid for itself. By putting more money into it here for a sort term deal it would never break even for all that they would sell.

I agree the G8 will be phased out but it did not cost much to bring it here and the work was already done. Second the V6 proigram was in place long before the oil price hike and CASFE changes as if you knew so much you would understand the V6 Mustang has been the back bone of their sales. For once the plan and timing of pushing a V6 program in the Camaro is right on the money.

They are not brain washing anyone they are just tring to reach more buyers as in the 4th gen they coulod not give away a V6 and not enough people would buy the V8. I knew 2 years ago that a 300+ HP Camaro was coming and stated so right here. This was long before any dark new to change GM's plans.

In todays market to put out any more 2 ton plus cars of any kind that sell for less than $40K is nuts unless your a high line brand. If you can sell a Silverado or F150 the most popular brasnd what make you think you will sell tons [pun intended] of a large Buck. After an start up run on it it will fade quickly and sit on lots much longer than your cold Saturns.

Few people will be spending more money for the next 1-2 years on large cars. The market is going to be soft and even lower gas prices will help in the short term.

GM needs to make the best and most efficent lighter car they can right now as that is what most other compnies will hove or already have.

I would love the Zeta to continue but this is a place to think with your head and not your heart. In the last yerar we had two major changes happen that are game changers that GM could not forsee or change.

Adapt or die.

[Daryl Z71]

ONCE AGAIN THANK OUR WONDERFUL US GOVERNMENT FOR TAKING THE OIL COMPANIES SIDE AND ONCE AGAIN TRYING TO DRIVE THE US WORKFORCE INTO THE $h!TER!!!

[JLFitzpatrick]

Stupid and more importantly, a sad move. Rather than give up on a platform that people want to drive and cause further market erosion by providing big lathargic torque-steering pigs, why not develop light structurally sound RWD vehicle with driving dynamics someone like me would actually pay for, with Hybrid or small displacement Turbocharged technology that yields better mileage. Oh, that's right. Developing cars that match the image GM is trying to portray is NOT part of their business plan. And how many layers of idiotic management does it take to kill a company these days? Well, I'm guessing it will be less and less as the last few years of this company go by, with decisions like these.

[ehaase]

why not develop light structurally sound RWD vehicle with driving dynamics someone like me would actually pay for, with Hybrid or small displacement Turbocharged technology that yields better mileage.

I think that's what the Alpha platform will be. I think GM is doing exactly what you want.

[Camino LS6]

I think that's what the Alpha platform will be. I think GM is doing exactly what you want.

They had better hurry it up.

And, Alpha won't cut it for me. Zeta is the perfect size to suit me and nothing smaller will do.

[gmcbob]

For the record - I'm psyched about Alpha.

If there was a Buick "alpha" sedan, I think that would be awesome.

But, knowing how GM operates these days - nobody outside of us on this board would even know it exists! They wouldn't advertise it!

[Drew Dowdell]

They had better hurry it up.

And, Alpha won't cut it for me. Zeta is the perfect size to suit me and nothing smaller will do.

What if Alpha is able to be stretched and then you end up with a Zeta sized car with less weight?

[Camino LS6]

What if Alpha is able to be stretched and then you end up with a Zeta sized car with less weight?

Won't happen, and a moot point for me since Alpha won't be V8 capable.

That doesn't mean I don't think Alpha should happen, I do.

It just isn't for me.

A lightened Zeta with fuel-saving tech applied to the drivetrains and alt fuel capable is what I'd really like to see.

[ehaase]

I wonder if an Alpha Buick would be more or less expensive than the Epsilon II Buick.

[hyperv6]

The Alpha will be more expensive as all cars are going to increase in price by a good margin. Hybrid Tech and lighter weight materials will drive the price up on all models to uncomforable levels.

The Alpha can and I expect will be expanded as it was to the point it could be changed and not a lot of work needed to be redone.

As for those wanting V8 engines start looking at what other companies are offering. Audi just had a line up with V8 engines but less of them. They as many other companies are looking at Turbo V6 and L4 engines with some really going to diesel.

My next thought is how long till GM lets out they will offer more diesels? Since Lutz down played them the rules have changed in the game. GM has em and it would not take much other than more money to get one. Vs the price of a Hybrid it may make a good option.

Who knows the next genration may all want no cylinders. We are only one big Middle East crisies way form oil prices never imagined. and you don't think Hamas has not noticed what it would do to our economy. A terror attack on the oil fields would be unmatched as any as it would effect every one in this country not just a few thousand.

At this point large platforms are not going to effect GM in a large way but great small fuel efficent cars are the life blood of GM's future. I am not crazy about it but that is the reality of it. Gas prices alon have killed the SUV and Truck market in just a couple of months. That is faster than the Goverment was doing it.

The wallet will dictate what sells in the future. Not RWD, V8's, GPS, Etc unless the oil markets bottoms out soon.

[Camino LS6]

Well, like I've said before, if the new product outlook is that bleak, I'll just buy old stuff. There is no reason that I'll have to buy any new cars after the G8 ST. No reason at all, and I'll save a bunch of money in the process.

[hyperv6]

Well, like I've said before, if the new product outlook is that bleak, I'll just buy old stuff. There is no reason that I'll have to buy any new cars after the G8 ST. No reason at all, and I'll save a bunch of money in the process.

A norrow mind is no way to grow older.

I claimed I would never go to NYC and after I had to spend a week there I had one hell of a good time. Still would not want to live there but I would lover to back for a visit.

Give them a chance and see what comes. If not your going to miss some things you will be sorry you missed.

We had too many old men years ago driving Model T's when they could have had enjoyed the ride in a Cadillac. But they did not want to fool with theose new fangled cars.

One of the coolest things I have seen in the last year was a V10 Diesel Audi prototype race car. Thst is something in the past I would have never expected.

Edited June 1, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

A norrow mind is no way to grow older.

I claimed I would never go to NYC and after I had to spend a week there I had one hell of a good time. Still would not want to live there but I would lover to back for a visit.

Give them a chance and see what comes. If not your going to miss some things you will be sorry you missed.

We had too many old men years ago driving Model T's when they could have had enjoyed the ride in a Cadillac. But they did not want to fool with theose new fangled cars.

One of the coolest things I have seen in the last year was a V10 Diesel Audi prototype race car. Thst is something in the past I would have never expected.

It's not an issue of narrowmindedness, it is an exercise of choice. I simply will not spend my money on a new car that does not appeal to me in a damn-near perfect way. It's just not worth it.

A new car is a huge expenditure (about to become even larger), and I will not pay for something I don't want.

No surrender, no compromise.

I just won't pay more for less.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It's not an issue of narrowmindedness, it is an exercise of choice. I simply will not spend my money on a new car that does not appeal to me in a damn-near perfect way. It's just not worth it.

A new car is a huge expenditure (about to become even larger), and I will not pay for something I don't want.

No surrender, no compromise.

I just won't pay more for less.

Personally Camino, I don't know why you're so upset. As it stands now, you will get the G8 ST. So it's not like you won't get what you want.

[Camino LS6]

Personally Camino, I don't know why you're so upset. As it stands now, you will get the G8 ST. So it's not like you won't get what you want.

Perhaps.

For now.

Almost (if no manual is offered)

What bugs me is that GM dragged their feet way too long. We could have had some great RWD cars for the last decade if they had not. That, and the utter waste of Zeta's potential when it could (or could have) provided innovative and desireable product in many forms - the Denali XT for example.

And, I'm pissed that I won't have a reason to care anymore.

And, I'm pissed that we all waited so long for this just to be diappointed - again.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Perhaps.

For now.

Almost (if no manual is offered)

What bugs me is that GM dragged their feet way too long. We could have had some great RWD cars for the last decade if they had not. That, and the utter waste of Zeta's potential when it could (or could have) provided innovative and desireable product in many forms - the Denali XT for example.

And, I'm pissed that I won't have a reason to care anymore.

And, I'm pissed that we all waited so long for this just to be diappointed - again.

Not so much a case of foot dragging, but more like being blocked by a powerful internal source from proceeding. That source had a vision two years ago that gasoline would be 4 - 5 bucks by now, seems they were correct. I read today that gasoline may be 12 - 15 dollars a gallon by 2010. I think more smaller fuel efficient cars will be the norm and V8's the exception to the rule in the near future.

[Camino LS6]

Not so much a case of foot dragging, but more like being blocked by a powerful internal source from proceeding. That source had a vision two years ago that gasoline would be 4 - 5 bucks by now, seems they were correct. I read today that gasoline may be 12 - 15 dollars a gallon by 2010. I think more smaller fuel efficient cars will be the norm and V8's the exception to the rule in the near future.

Oh it was foot dragging allright, we should have been enjoying the last generation of Commodores over here in all the bodystyles from the start of that run. As for that powerful internal source, it should have pushed Zeta ahead and grabbed the sales and goodwill it could have provided for a few more years before this all went to crap. If that vision of the automotive future comes to pass - I'll take the zero.

It won't matter anymore.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Oh it was foot dragging allright, we should have been enjoying the last generation of Commodores over here in all the bodystyles from the start of that run. As for that powerful internal source, it should have pushed Zeta ahead and grabbed the sales and goodwill it could have provided for a few more years before this all went to crap. If that vision of the automotive future comes to pass - I'll take the zero.

It won't matter anymore.

I hate to disagree, but it took Holden and Mike Simcoe almost 4 years to benchmark the last generation BMW, this began in 1999. Then 2 years to clay it up and build mules/prototypes etc. Which brings us to 2005, Holden got their 1st vehicle in 2006, that really wasn't all that long, when you consider that Mike Simcoe had to build this platform from the ground up.

Edited June 1, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

And, that internal source shouldn't be putting all of its eggs in one basket.

And, that internal source should be pushing for the wider use of the technologies Holden will be using to keep VE viable.

Zeta could meet the demands of both the market and CAFE if the obstructionists would but allow it.

[Camino LS6]

While I'm at it, I seem to recall that "things hinged on G8 sales" .

Seems to me that the G8 is doing fine as the second fastest selling sedan in the US.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, I'm not here to argue with you, I'm just trying to shed some light on why things are the way they are. That's all.

Edited June 1, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

well, I'm not here to argue with you, I'm just trying to shed some light on why things are the way they are. that's all.

I'm actually not so much arguing with you as venting against moves that I see as huge errors in judgement.

The GMNA zetas really have (had) the potential to become legends, I see that being squandered.

Even considering the outside factors, the result is that GM has almost entirely missed the boat on RWD. Too slow to make it happen, they've blown the chance. No amount of FWD blandmobiles will ever generate the buzz and goodwill those cancelled Zetas would have. Until the products stand out from the crowd, it's all for nothing.

[Camino LS6]

I hate to disagree, but it took Holden and Mike Simcoe almost 4 years to benchmark the last generation BMW, this began in 1999. Then 2 years to clay it up and build mules/prototypes etc. Which brings us to 2005, Holden got their 1st vehicle in 2006, that really wasn't all that long, when you consider that Mike Simcoe had to build this platform from the ground up.

Just to clarify: I was talking about the VY/VZ cars, not Zeta. The foot-dragging was the old regime's fault.

[hyperv6]

Camino you know I agree with you 99% of the time but for once PCS is the one here speaking the reality of what GM has to do.

GM got caught with their butt out in the wind back in 1973 and have been playing catch up with the cars from Japan since.

GM has not shifted way from your wants the market as a whole has shifted away.

The sad fact is cars today to most people are just appliances and a way to get to work. A cup holder, a low monthly payment, MPG and I pod plug is more important than larger sway bars and 8 cylinders. You often lament the lack of a manual geart box and GM does not offer it. Well GM would offer more of them if people would just buy them. Whey build cars that few want or buy.

The fact is the market is passing the Auto Enthusiast by. We are now out of the norm and the less there of us the less things that will be offered to us. We will always have some form of performance but we will have a more limited low cost selection.

The bottom line is it is not GM fault it is the public buying habits that are dictating it.

I know your upset as GM may not offer the car you want but many share holders would be mad and selling their stock if GM did not build car suit for market conditions and the kind of cars the market is calling for.

The best thing we all could do is get the young kits to put the game boy down and take them to a car show, go to a race or hand them a wrench...... If the younger generations wants do not change there will be even fewer car enthusiast.

It is sad in most Walmarts most Hot Wheels displays are being sorted through by adults in their 30's or older.

I have already taught my 7 year old how to change tires and next we will learn how to change oil. Even if he does not get into cars I figure this kind of thing will help him from being a Lub Shop Victim.

Oh yes, I buy him a lot of Hot Wheels too.

[ZL-1]

The fact is the market is passing the Auto Enthusiast by. We are now out of the norm and the less there of us the less things that will be offered to us. We will always have some form of performance but we will have a more limited low cost selection.

The bottom line is it is not GM fault it is the public buying habits that are dictating it.

QFT

As in almost everything in Life, adapt or die.

[Drew Dowdell]

Not so much a case of foot dragging, but more like being blocked by a powerful internal source from proceeding. That source had a vision two years ago that gasoline would be 4 - 5 bucks by now, seems they were correct. I read today that gasoline may be 12 - 15 dollars a gallon by 2010. I think more smaller fuel efficient cars will be the norm and V8's the exception to the rule in the near future.

What does a V8 have anything to do with it? There are 3 engines, at least, that could have worked suitably in just about any Zeta and still provided excellent economy.

The 2.9 litre diesel should be offered. The two-mode should be offered. There is the BAS-II Turbo Ecotec with power curves damn near identical to today's HF3.6.

No, V8 is just the excuse.... someone has it in for the ZETA.

[daves87rs]

Camino you know I agree with you 99% of the time but for once PCS is the one here speaking the reality of what GM has to do.

GM got caught with their butt out in the wind back in 1973 and have been playing catch up with the cars from Japan since.

GM has not shifted way from your wants the market as a whole has shifted away.

The sad fact is cars today to most people are just appliances and a way to get to work. A cup holder, a low monthly payment, MPG and I pod plug is more important than larger sway bars and 8 cylinders. You often lament the lack of a manual geart box and GM does not offer it. Well GM would offer more of them if people would just buy them. Whey build cars that few want or buy.

The fact is the market is passing the Auto Enthusiast by. We are now out of the norm and the less there of us the less things that will be offered to us. We will always have some form of performance but we will have a more limited low cost selection.

The bottom line is it is not GM fault it is the public buying habits that are dictating it.

I know your upset as GM may not offer the car you want but many share holders would be mad and selling their stock if GM did not build car suit for market conditions and the kind of cars the market is calling for.

The best thing we all could do is get the young kits to put the game boy down and take them to a car show, go to a race or hand them a wrench...... If the younger generations wants do not change there will be even fewer car enthusiast.

It is sad in most Walmarts most Hot Wheels displays are being sorted through by adults in their 30's or older.

I have already taught my 7 year old how to change tires and next we will learn how to change oil. Even if he does not get into cars I figure this kind of thing will help him from being a Lub Shop Victim.

Oh yes, I buy him a lot of Hot Wheels too.

QFT.

Soon cars will be like buying a tv, and just as easy to get rid of....

[hyperv6]

QFT.

Soon cars will be like buying a tv, and just as easy to get rid of....

After looking at sellections form Hyundia, Kia, Honda and Toyota who's to say they are already not?

The average car buyer today buys a car from a Automall with many sellections. They come equipt with either Consumer Guides or a web recomendation under their arm. If you asked them what Pinifiarina was they would say it was a drink.

The average buyer wants a Low Payment, Reliability and Good Mileage in a car that is easy to drive and is inoffensive in looks.

The car enthusiast is a dying breed and along with them go the interesting cars. With schools preaching from the Book of Al and his coat of global warming it draws more out of each generation.

Right now my heart say build more Camaro's, G8's and CTSv series cars but my brain said under prevailing market conditions GM needs the best dam Aveo they can build.

As for lost times and years in the past, they are just that years in the past. If one remainds in the past he will never move forward and never improve the future.

I lived through the 60's and they were not as good as some would like you to believe them to be. Every decade has it's ups and downs and even with some of the downs right not we are in a pretty good age for the moment so if you want that Camaro or G8 and can afford the fuel get it and enjoy. Live for today because it may be gone tomarrow.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

What if Alpha is able to be stretched and then you end up with a Zeta sized car with less weight?

That would be perfect.. However, in order for it to meet the other requirement of an optional V8 it probably wouldn't be that much lighter.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

As for those wanting V8 engines start looking at what other companies are offering. Audi just had a line up with V8 engines but less of them. They as many other companies are looking at Turbo V6 and L4 engines with some really going to diesel.

Yet they still have the option.

My next thought is how long till GM lets out they will offer more diesels? Since Lutz down played them the rules have changed in the game. GM has em and it would not take much other than more money to get one. Vs the price of a Hybrid it may make a good option.

It won't happen... You're sitting there telling me that Zeta is a bad business move because it's "too heavy" and "wont sell" and in the very same breath suggesting that GM bring out a slew of diesel options when diesel is almost $5/gallon? And that's supposed to be good business sense on the part of GM?

At this point large platforms are not going to effect GM in a large way but great small fuel efficent cars are the life blood of GM's future. I am not crazy about it but that is the reality of it. Gas prices alon have killed the SUV and Truck market in just a couple of months. That is faster than the Goverment was doing it.

They're still truning a profit.

As far as terrorism... What about alternative fuels? Why not allow that to happen instead of giving in to the terrorists and fat cats by forfeiting our freedoms? I know, it makes too much sense, right?

Edited June 1, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A norrow mind is no way to grow older.

I am getting REAL tired of hearing that I (and people like me) are narrow minded because we WANT to spend OUR money in a certain way. maybe you, and GM, are narrow minded by not offering THE MAJORITY of the buying public what they truly want. Do you really think that americans WANT to downsize?

We appreciate different forms of performance just as much as anyone on this board, yet our opinions are not fashionable right now, so we must change? Yeah right.

Give them a chance and see what comes. If not your going to miss some things you will be sorry you missed.

OR I could just look at the current line up of $h! (And I mean that) at GME and determine that our options for the future are indeed VERY bleak.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Not so much a case of foot dragging, but more like being blocked by a powerful internal source from proceeding. That source had a vision two years ago that gasoline would be 4 - 5 bucks by now, seems they were correct. I read today that gasoline may be 12 - 15 dollars a gallon by 2010. I think more smaller fuel efficient cars will be the norm and V8's the exception to the rule in the near future.

More like financial problems than some 'magical overlord'

And BTW, if gas ever reaches that level, it'll be the end of the world because NO economy will survive and war will be imminent. Why does that source believe it'll be that high? Because of supply? Funny that supply doesn't seem to be the issue right now, it's simply greed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

While I'm at it, I seem to recall that "things hinged on G8 sales" .

Seems to me that the G8 is doing fine as the second fastest selling sedan in the US.

Nah...

Things hinge on who has the biggest set of balls on the GM board...

You know it, I know and sadly, 65% of the buying public knows it... Which is why GM will continue to die.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM has not shifted way from your wants the market as a whole has shifted away.

Yes... That's it... That's why trucks and SUVs outsold cars until last year (Despite gradually escalating gas prices) That's why V8s made a comback in the 90s and until now in almost everything (Despite gradually rising gas prices) That's why americans traditionally buy larger cars than anyone else on the planet. That's why Toyota, Honda and Nissan rushed to implement fullsize truck plans. That's why Hyundai is producing a V8 powered RWD car.

The sad fact is cars today to most people are just appliances and a way to get to work.

Be that as it may, cars are still purchased on emotion instead of logic.

A cup holder, a low monthly payment, MPG and I pod plug is more important than larger sway bars and 8 cylinders.

Which is why 95% of cars don't need to come with the OPTION of larger sway bars and a 8 cylinders.

You often lament the lack of a manual geart box and GM does not offer it. Well GM would offer more of them if people would just buy them. Whey build cars that few want or buy.

I dunno... Ask BMW. Ask the average person that hasn't touched a GM vehicle in 15 years why they hold BMW in such high regard.

The fact is the market is passing the Auto Enthusiast by. We are now out of the norm and the less there of us the less things that will be offered to us. We will always have some form of performance but we will have a more limited low cost selection.

I see more yuppie performance MB, BMW and Minis now than ever before. The same goes for all the 'performance' versions of the Camry and Accord, hell even Lexus has a performance division now.

The bottom line is it is not GM fault it is the public buying habits that are dictating it.

It's GMs fault for not utilizing all of its divisions correctly to appeal to EVERY buyer in order to remain one of the largest automakers in the world. (It already lost the title of the largest by executing stupid product plans just like this)

I know your upset as GM may not offer the car you want but many share holders would be mad and selling their stock if GM did not build car suit for market conditions and the kind of cars the market is calling for.

Why not build both, make more money and have a better identity in the market?

The best thing we all could do is get the young kits to put the game boy down and take them to a car show, go to a race or hand them a wrench...... If the younger generations wants do not change there will be even fewer car enthusiast.

Umm. Okay... So that's why games like Gran Turismo can be found in EVERY one of these kids homes. The reason less kids are enthusiasts now is because NONE of them can afford a decent f*cking car. And a lot of this can be attributed to GM & Co. ignoring them for the past 15 years.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

QFT

As in almost everything in Life, adapt or die.

I'll just buy used.

k. thx.

[Chazman]

Camino, I don't know why you're mad. You're gonna get the G8 and the ST.

Look at me, I've been waiting for a new Camaro for over a decade. And now that it's nearly here, it'll weigh over two tons. I mean WTF!!!!!!!!!! I don't want that.

Mercifully, this one will have a short run.

[regfootball]

here's the real problem. gm is so big there is no excuse to not have zeta and alpha like platforms. whether they are fat heavy pigs or not, is another issue too. Does Zeta have alum rear susp? where's the AWD?

So is GM even equipping these platfroms with all they can?

in addition they need a large and small fwd delta and mid and large fwd/awd epsilon. a microcar platform too.

and GM should have enough resources to redevelop these platforms continuously. It should only take these days 30-36 months from nothing to showroom for a new platform. No model should have more than 36-48 months before a significant enhancement.

gm should have a stable of motors and trannies that can be plugged in to just about anywhere, diesel, gas, 4,6, 8 cyl. turbo, ethanol, hybrids.

GM is still tripping all over itself and is making progress but even here in NA most of GM's desirable stuff is still not in volume segments or is in the really affordable daily driver price ranges. No wonder GM is getting bitchslapped in the market. My reminder today was seeing the GXP torrent at the local dealer here....sticker...38k!! for that? cheap interior, 5 year old chassis, admittedly now a competent motor....but 38k? MY GOD WHO ARE THEY FOOLING?

at least in NA, GM still is way behind, design, interiors (INTERIORS!), powertrains, options, fun to drive, pricing, technology........

their plan can work if the management can allow it! i say fire everyone in charge of these decisions. its obvious they are not stewarding the company like they should.

Edited June 1, 2008 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

It won't happen... You're sitting there telling me that Zeta is a bad business move because it's "too heavy" and "wont sell" and in the very same breath suggesting that GM bring out a slew of diesel options when diesel is almost $5/gallon? And that's supposed to be good business sense on the part of GM?

They're still truning a profit.

A 4 or 6 cylinder Diesel is more efficent than any gas powered engine available. VW does well as does many other Euro MFG with their small Diesels. Unless you got something better already on the shelf in other markets it is a good option vs just building another large car that will sit 60+ days on the lots after the first surge.

As far as terrorism... What about alternative fuels? Why not allow that to happen instead of giving in to the terrorists and fat cats by forfeiting our freedoms? I know, it makes too much sense, right?

Again you have a alternative avaiable now or in the near future other the meth? Hydrogen keeps staying 10 years out and LPG just has never taken off. It make sense but there are none out their people are willing to pay for as long as gas is cheaper.

[hyperv6]

I am getting REAL tired of hearing that I (and people like me) are narrow minded because we WANT to spend OUR money in a certain way. maybe you, and GM, are narrow minded by not offering THE MAJORITY of the buying public what they truly want. Do you really think that americans WANT to downsize?

I am getting real tired of hearing people B@t@ch about not getting their way with building high HP and large cars. Then they turn and B$t@ch because GM is losing market share because they are not building the cars the public is buying.

We appreciate different forms of performance just as much as anyone on this board, yet our opinions are not fashionable right now, so we must change? Yeah right.

OR I could just look at the current line up of $h! (And I mean that) at GME and determine that our options for the future are indeed VERY bleak.

No one said chang but the fact is understand it is a buisness and not just a company to provide for you and you only. It is about making a buck and a dealer lot of large V8 car is not a wise buisness move at this time.

It is your right to spit into the wind all you like but it is not going to change a thing accpet make you miserable. For the most part the rest of us like what you like and want what you want but we just get tired of the B@tching. We are the minority and just have to learn to deal with it.

[hyperv6]

Yes... That's it... That's why trucks and SUVs outsold cars until last year (Despite gradually escalating gas prices) That's why V8s made a comback in the 90s and until now in almost everything (Despite gradually rising gas prices) That's why americans traditionally buy larger cars than anyone else on the planet. That's why Toyota, Honda and Nissan rushed to implement fullsize truck plans. That's why Hyundai is producing a V8 powered RWD car.

And that is why I can get a hell of a deal on a full size SUV or truck now as they are collecting dust on lots.

Be that as it may, cars are still purchased on emotion instead of logic.

I see a hell of lot of emotion in a Camry, Civic, Fit, Elan, Should I go on.

I dunno... Ask BMW. Ask the average person that hasn't touched a GM vehicle in 15 years why they hold BMW in such high regard.

The market for manual trannys is around 8% and getting smaller every year. BMW does not sell to the average auto buyer.

I see more yuppie performance MB, BMW and Minis now than ever before. The same goes for all the 'performance' versions of the Camry and Accord, hell even Lexus has a performance division now.

There is a emotional performance version of the Camry and Accord? Oh thats right I see them everywhere. Not.

Umm. Okay... So that's why games like Gran Turismo can be found in EVERY one of these kids homes. The reason less kids are enthusiasts now is because NONE of them can afford a decent f*cking car. And a lot of this can be attributed to GM & Co. ignoring them for the past 15 years.

So it is only a GM problem? Few of them can afford a new Civic and they are driving old one's Mom and Dad bought for them because that is what they drive.

As for the older cars they can afford 4th Gen Camaro's but many do not want them and pass them and Mustangs up for Civic and used WRX Subie.

Your dealing with a generation that has learn from Mom and Dad to buy a 4N car. THis is going to take time to change as even now as GM has cars as good many still will not bite.

The bottom line is we got the two Zeta's that matter the most. the rest would be nice but are not make or break cars. If it was easy and cheaper to convert the Zeta to GM's future needs they would. I am sure the last thing they really want to do is drop all the work they have already done.

The bottom line is the average new car buyers today do not buy out of emotion, they buy out of what they can offord pice wise and fuel economy wise. They also want a car that is not going in for service repairs as that is time and money wasted. The new Malibu shows GM understand the present day customer who buys the majority of the new cars. The Volume buyers are what pay the bills.

You can be upset things did not work out but we hear this song and damce so often form some here it gets old. Real old. You don't have to agree with it, you just have to deal with it.

[z28luvr01]

The problem is, given the tools and technoligies that GM has in its arsenal righ now, we can have our cake and eat it too. There's no reason that a Zeta vehicle, even a V8-powered Zeta, can't be so equipped that it can pull down 30-35mpg highway. It can't take that much effort to put AFM, DI, and two-mode hybrid systems into current-gen Zeta vehicles to make them more efficient while a more lightweight successor is developed. And I'm sure BAS could be used without too much engineering. The fact GM has the technology and can roll it out next model year if it so desired, but won't is nothing short of maddening.

Here's a somewhat surprising tidbit - Despite being heavier by some 300lb, the V6-powered Zeta G8 (with one fewer gear in the tranny) gets nearly identical mileage to the V6-powered Epsilon Malibu. The two cars get 17mpg city, and the 'bu bests the G8 in highway fuel economy by a whopping 1mpg (26-25). Zeta's been called a fat heavy pig, but in spite of its weight it can underpin vehicles that are every bit as efficient (if not moreso) than a comparably-powered Epsilon. So, why aren't any Epsilon vehicles on the chopping block...hmmmm?

[Oracle of Delphi]

So, why aren't any Epsilon vehicles on the chopping block...hmmmm?

I think you know the answer to that question.

[turbo200]

good point on the tech front. an LS engine reduce in displacement, maybe to around 4.0L, employing DI tech, assisted with BAS, sure sounds like a recipe for over 260 hp [detuned] and potentially 35 mpg. that would be quite a fitting powertrain for all the upscale sedans, at all the brands. the bottom line was that zeta was in my eyes positioned to help make sense of the brand heirarchy, to give reason for all the brands to exist, via sound platform engineering that resulted in powerful cars that had extremely competent driving experiences and of course were styled and designed in and out meticulously. they would have been the right complement to the lower end sedans on all fronts, from Buick to Pontiac to Chevrolet, all being offered at different price positioning and with different content levels and aiming at different buyers. If Lambda can exist with low volumes and lower fuel economy numbers, what's the reason an already developed RWD platform that would serve the purpose of further developing a good upscale identity and feel for the brands not to exist?

?? Still waiting? The answer there is no good reason, as to that question. I understand the reasoning posited by hyperv6, though I haven't read through all the posts, the best most cogent argument against Zeta in general seems to me to be the large cars question. Are people going to move aaway completely from large cars? While we've heard plenty here argue passionately for them, what about real people with real dollars in the real world?

The answer is bigger people, at least, those 6'4 and above, mostly men obviously, will always be drawn to big sedans with big style and those insistent on portraying an image of excess and power/brutal size will always be drawn to bigger cars. so there will always be a market for them. gas prices be damned. no wait, not gas prices be damned, the whole point is we are moving towards technologies with the intent of making attractive vehicles that at least somewhat resemble our current buying habits.

There will be need for downsizing, and many here who argue they will never buy a big car may not have any good reason for doing so, but the choice needs to be offered for those that do need it, i.e. really big people, at least. I mean I've seen bigger guys driving small cars, I'm talking about 6'4, 250 lbs, and they simply don't look comfortable. we are a society accustomed to some level of comfort, and at least that buying habit will permeate in the future, even though it should logically be tamed as we deal with more of the real-world pressures and start to acknowledge our place in the world more. which will allow those that simply want it the choice as well.

as for alpha, I though this platform is primarily designed to be 3-series sized. well there have also been descriptions of it being 1-series sized, so who knows. I do know it's not smart for GM to dilute the platform and try to make it 'flexible' as we've all seen those cars fail in the past.

[turbo200]

I think you know the answer to that question.

comparing efficiency: the zeta G8 offers more interior space and comfort than CTS, at the same weight. relative to Malibu, a comparable G8 V6 is 300-400 lbs heavier, and also offers substantially increased interior accomodations. malibu is small for its class, yet outweighs most competitors. maybe there is a sound argument for chopping epsilon!

[ehaase]

There's no reason that a Zeta vehicle, even a V8-powered Zeta, can't be so equipped that it can pull down 30-35mpg highway. It can't take that much effort to put AFM, DI, and two-mode hybrid systems into current-gen Zeta vehicles to make them more efficient while a more lightweight successor is developed.

But who wants to pay $50,000 for a Buick or Pontiac?

[turbo200]

The bottom line is we got the two Zeta's that matter the most. the rest would be nice but are not make or break cars. If it was easy and cheaper to convert the Zeta to GM's future needs they would. I am sure the last thing they really want to do is drop all the work they have already done.

it seems to me they're just giving up. where's the large car alternative? do they think impala will suffice and the market completely will go away? there's no accounting for the 60k TLs, 50k E-class, 50k 5-series, 60k CTS, 120k 300s, 40k S-class, 20k 7-series or all the other large luxurious sedans sold every year. those are just a blip in a radar in a far off world that doesn't exist in GM land, the land known as major urban centers where imports succeed.

I'm not trying to make a case that GM will suddenly discover the gold mine that will stop luxury buyers from buying large Mercedes cars; but certainly there is a case for GM tapping into the incredibly lucrative luxury market in the US at where it has pitifully been slapped in the face for more than a decade in terms of sales. What does GM expect, $4/gallon gas is suddenly going to stop the explosive growth of the luxury sector? IT will take a stock market crash and much worse economic conditions than we're currently already facing for that to happen.

Here's the thing. These were make and break for Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac, even Chevy. Remember all the promise of the SS, the Velite, the new GTO sketch drawing, the Sixteen, etc.........these all showed what GM could do when it put its mind to designing cars people would want to own and be seen in. What have we seen revealed in this promise? This is why GM is such a failure in my eyes. and will continue to be [result: I've simply lost interest, I just don't care anymore]. the complete failure they've exhibitied in managing storied brands when brands, identity, product are what have moved sales in this decade.

The bottom line is the average new car buyers today do not buy out of emotion, they buy out of what they can offord pice wise and fuel economy wise.

I applaud them for what they've done with the Malibu. you usually come with an inside perspective, if this is the only thing they came away with from the success of the Malibu, they've lost the lesson completely. sound pricing and good fuel economy have always been a part of the GM plan. they are pivital to a successful pacakge, but of far greater importance is first an enduring and appealing design that entices and is fresh. the malibu is wonderfully styled, probably thier best sedan currently and in a long time. it will endure and this is of huge significance. one of the biggest things european and japanese design has going for it is an enduring quality, in the case of euros it's much stronger, a simple and appealing character with a great basic shape and attention to detail. the malibu's exterior design exhibits so much attention to fine detail, some fresh and appealing character traits [i bet that rear everyone roundly criticized here is universally loved and accepted as a charming part of that car's character, something I though from the beginning]. anyways, it's also good to note the interior shares this fresh and appealing approach to design. combne this all with a good pricing strategy, good-to-great engineering, and there's your formula for a remade Chevy image.

This does not mean Malibu-sized FWD cars are the only cars people in the future will be drawn to. what an extremely shortsighted view and so reminiscent of GM if that is indeed the way they think. as always with GM, putting your eggs in one basket is the way to go. If they can't manage thier brands and cars, they should just give up already and sell only Cadillac and Chevy. Then things won't get complicated or to tricky for their minds to deal with.

[turbo200]

But who wants to pay $50,000 for a Buick or Pontiac?

as described, this powertrain would require a $2000 premium at most. Who's talking about $50k? realistically, with the right quality, design, good powertrain and engineering, a zeta buick should command a price from $35k-45k

[z28luvr01]

It wouldn't take $20K worth of technology to increase Zeta's efficiency. Any one of thoes technologies could be used to bring Zeta into the 30+ MPG club, at no more than a $5000 increase in MSRP.