GM Officially Cancels Zeta Buick

[Oracle of Delphi]

BTW, I turn 30 in July, so there goes your stereotype.

Let me be the first to welcome you to my decade! :AH-HA_wink:

[!!!TED!!!]

A source familiar with GM's plans

This news has not been fully confirmed, other than one vague source, correct?

[regfootball]

the paradigm is changed enough these days and the customer expectation high enough that regardless of front or rear bias platform, I would suggest that one or two or even the whole line of buicks should have available AWD.

IMO no chinese park avenue is a forgivable sin if a Lucerne replacement has AWD optional and one motor of 300-320hp.

Especially if a lowly ecoboost taurus packing 350hp and awd hits market, why can't buick step up with something besides a 10 year old northstar, pushrod v6's and front drive only?

Edited May 28, 2008 by regfootball

[Cremazie]

This is a smart move. And it'll give the new LaCrosse, which will be better than the current vehicle and roomy-enough, some breathing space in Buick showrooms too.

The "full-size" sedan market is a loser from a business standpoint too. Not just because of CAFE either. It's been shrinking for years, and going to continue to contract as buyers look to smaller cars.

GM needs to plot all its vehicles on a graph. 2 axes: sales potential on one and profit margin on the other. Full-sized sedans end up in the worst quadrant: low profit because of high incentives and low sales potential because of shrinking market. GM ran its factories in the 1st quarter of 2008 at 76% of capacity. Factor in another 10% too high of reliance on fleet sales and you've got about 7 or 8 assembly plants they need to close to get close to 100% plant capacity (the holy grail of profitability). SUV plants (the demand is not coming back ever)

I totally Agree, although most of us lust for the yesteryears of huge rwd sedans, those days are gone. I think the EPII cars from GM will be large enough to satisify most peoples needs. Sadly they will not satisify most C&G forumers wants!

[Blake Noble]

I didn't know I had left.

When things are as quiet as they have been around here recently, you notice when someone is missing for a period of time.

[DetroitNut90]

You know, I don't think I'm mad because GM isn't giving Buick a RWD sedan. It is a bit disappointing. But I find that I'm more irked at the fact that GM spent $1 billion to develop the Zeta platform (which is consistently being hailed for its stellar driving dynamics--but that's beside my point) and then turn around and hardly use it. It's not a sound decision at all from a financial standpoint, especially considering money is becoming ever-tighter within the company.

[Camino LS6]

You know, I don't think I'm mad because GM isn't giving Buick a RWD sedan. It is a bit disappointing. But I find that I'm more irked at the fact that GM spent $1 billion to develop the Zeta platform (which is consistently being hailed for its stellar driving dynamics--but that's beside my point) and then turn around and hardly use it. It's not a sound decision at all from a financial standpoint, especially considering money is becoming ever-tighter within the company.

Absolutely!

What an amazing waste!

[buyacargetacheck]

Your assumption that Buick is or could ever be a "Tier 1" luxury brand is incorrect. Forget the cars for a minute. GM doesn't have the vision nor the money to totally revamp the Buick dealer experience to come even close to matching the Lexus customer experience, an always-moving target by the way. In fact, by forcing single brand Buick dealers to pair with worktruck GMC and pedestrian Pontiac, GM is actually shooting itself in the foot in this regard. RWD doesn't fix this fundamental problem.

BTW, because of the above, GM should immediately stop comparing Buick to Lexus. Buick should be presented for what it is: a nicely styled, high quality, comfortable brand with no pretention.

Who has more respect as a Tier-1 luxury brand? Lexus, with it's FWD/RWD product mix, or Acura, with an all-FWD lineup? Also, pre-2003, Cadillac was considered a joke by most shopping for a status/luxury car. Yeah, I know the Catera was RWD, but it had problems that the drivetrain layout couldn't hide.

Sorry, but these days if you want to be taken seriously in terms of performance, status, or luxury, you need RWD. Keeping Buick all FWD stifles its march toward acceptance as a premium nameplate.

BTW, I turn 30 in July, so there goes your stereotype.

[Blake Noble]

You know, I don't think I'm mad because GM isn't giving Buick a RWD sedan. It is a bit disappointing. But I find that I'm more irked at the fact that GM spent $1 billion to develop the Zeta platform (which is consistently being hailed for its stellar driving dynamics--but that's beside my point) and then turn around and hardly use it. It's not a sound decision at all from a financial standpoint, especially considering money is becoming ever-tighter within the company.

Agreed. Very well said.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Another f*ckin' dumb move...

I'll be on BlueOvalNews taking bets on how long it takes GM to f*ck up to the point of bankruptcy.

This is sheer ignorance... Ford can do RWD with CAFE, so can Chrysler and so can Hyundai. Yet GM is too ignorant to figure it out?

So, I guess we'll get a Lacrosse that can double as a Saturn, an outdated Lucerne with lipstick and a Buick coupe from Alpha (Because that makes so much damn sense) while Pontiac will survive with a G6 that can double as a Malibu, which will already double as a Saturn.

EFF you GM and EFF you americaNT. I'm done with this.

Edited May 29, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Cadillac is the marque which GM is trying to push as its Mercedes, Lexus and BMW rivalling Q-car worldwide. It's going to get all the upmarket favouritism.

And it's going to do this with no V8 program and platforms shared with cars that are half the price...

Another EXCELLENT move by GM...

[cletus8269]

When things are as quiet as they have been around here recently, you notice when someone is missing for a period of time.

indeed, its been a while since "kill buick, pontiac, hummer, sell saab, get 20 way pwr seats in a caddy" has been mentioned.

on topic, does this mean that if one wants multiple experiences in a zeta you have to go down under?

what does this mean for the invicta concept?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

See, the thing about that is... I don't care.

Time to pay attention to, and finance the development of, the other brands.

Here's the problem: CADILLAC should've been "right" 7 years ago when GM "revived" the brand.

Now would be the time to revive OTHER brands if GM had a clue about reviving a brand in the first place.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Normally, this is where you would expect me to say I told you so, but I am not! I only wanted to wish Buick fans my condolences on this loss, you need more product, not less product.

[edit: I deleted the first part of this post after being asked to]

You were better off gone than antagonizing people on this board.

Mods: ban me if you want. It won't change the opinion of me or most everyone else around here. PCS disappears for a month and then suddenly makes a sincere remark about the death of a program that he hates that involves a sales channel he wants to eliminate.

Yeah right...

Edited May 29, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I understand that but if GM is serious about pushing a credible luxury brand (and the signs are that they have been) that will be a respected marque globally in the same way as BMW is, then they're going to choose Cadillac - especially if they're cautiously picking and choosing investment strategies as a result of the current economic climate.

Except for Buick is more important in what is soon to be the number one market on the planet.

(I'm just sayin')

[Blake Noble]

what does this mean for the invicta concept?

The Buick Invicta concept was based on the Epsilon II platform and is a preview of the replacement for the LaCrosse. Zeta bears no effect on this car entering production.

Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to stand back on the sidelines. I get the feeling it might get ugly in here.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This whole "Buick must have a rear-wheel drive flagship" is a total crock. Those of you spouting this garbage are either very young or have a bad/selective memory. Buick for years had as its flagship a car called the Riviera. Remember that car? Specifically the FWD version that came out in 1979 and was one of the best-selling Rivs of all time? Remember, this was before Lexus -- a time when Buick was considered THE near-luxury car preferred by doctors, business owners, and country clubbers.

Even after Lexus came on the scene the FWD H-Body LeSabre became a legend in itself. It sold so well it was almost its own franchise. Aside from the me-too styling of its C-Body counterparts the 1985 FWD Electra was well-received and unique in many ways. The 1991 Park Avenue was truly a sales winner and a step up in styling for Buick as well.

For Buick customers, FWD was embraced and judged superior long ago.

The same customers that are dying off?

You constantly tell us to come into reality, maybe you should too if you believe the above.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Unless we have a major worldwide recession gasoline prices will continue to climb. We're looking at prices approaching $5/gallon in that same 2 years. Can anyone envision non-luxury brands like Pontiac and Buick thriving with gas prices that high? A 2-vehicle lineup may be the least of Buick's troubles.

We will...

Gas prices are severely affecting the economy now, what makes you think higher prices wont wreck it?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

BTW, because of the above, GM should immediately stop comparing Buick to Lexus. Buick should be presented for what it is: a nicely styled, high quality, comfortable brand with no pretention.

But then, what american would buy it?

[Jazzhead]

I've adjusting to high gas prices by driving less. Not by turning in the car of my choice and driving a crapmobile.

When the drunk driving laws drove up the price of public drinking, there was an increase in the sale of microbrews and other premium hootch. People were forced to drink less, so they chose to drink better. Why wouldn't the same phenomena hold true for cars? Sure, I'll have my Ford Focus, but my "second car" is still gonna be some funmobile, whether a Jeep or a sophisticated rear-driver. Why can't GM make a marketing case for selling that kind of fun for popular prices?

[Chicagoland]

Welcome to reality gear heads, old timers and weepy eyed nostolgia fans. Who really thought cheap gas was forever, and CAFE would disappear?

Can scream and hollar all day, write Congress, send email petitions, stop buying gas on Sundays, but we aren't going to see $1-2 a gallon ever again. And wake up, world is not going to go back in time. You think Russia and China is going to stop allowing people to buy new cars, so we can get all the oil we want? And, do you really think GM can 'only be saved by all big RWD cars'?

The only way any large #'s of RWD big sedans will be produced in the future is if they are hybrids, diesels, or all electric cars. Even sane car fans are not eager for a 12 mpg car to drive every day. "Future of GM" is not 1965, and all the unsold big trucks that "Real Americans want" shows that most people are wising up, and moving on.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Chicagoland

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Another Zeta is in trouble as well , and faces cancellation.

[Chazman]

Another Zeta is in trouble as well , and faces cancellation.

The only two Zetas which have not been cancelled, are the G8 and Camaro. Are you referring to one of those?

[Oracle of Delphi]

The only two Zetas which have not been cancelled, are the G8 and Camaro. Are you referring to one of those?

Oh no, there is another! (Isn't that what Yoda said in Star Wars?)

[ZL-1]

Another Zeta is in trouble as well , and faces cancellation.

DTS/DT7?

[hyperv6]

Ok why are so many shocked and upset? Most here are smart enough to have know this was going to happen.

Second let GM lay out what they plan to to as they did not kill this car off with out some kind of a plan.

GM did not waste a Billion as they have already sold this plaform in many different forms world wide we just got only two of them.

The fact is GM got burned in the past while still trying to pass of large heavy American cars in times of high gas prices or shortages and they will not do it again. They can't affords to do itr again as the last time it opened the door to MFG from Japan andf this time it will ber China/India.

Zeta may have worked in the short term but they need to start now and with the money they have to work on a long term solution. GM is having trouble pushing their most populatr vehicles today [trucks/SUV's] due to gas prices. Do you really think a RWD Buick would do very well long term? Just as the G8 and the new trucks those who want it will buy and sales will fade away over the following years.

Zeta is just too heavy and I am sure GM is either looking at a Revised Zeta that is lighter, an expanded Alpha or some new platform we have not heard named yet. In the end we will get a lighter car that will be better to take on a the future market. Either way to continue the car as it is for only 3-4 years would be a waste of money and is not a long term fix.

Lets hear at least what they have to offer before anyone jumps out any windows. You might just be suprised what you might get. Now if they follow this up with a very poor plan they open the window.

The bottom line is don't over react and act like a GM Insider expecting a Firebird anyday..

Edited May 29, 2008 by hyperv6

[Guest aatbloke]

Except for Buick is more important in what is soon to be the number one market on the planet.

(I'm just sayin')

GM realises that if it wants a successful executive product in the same vein as BMW or Mercedes, it has to think about global markets first and foremost and the marque concerned is Cadillac. This takes preference over a single market. Given the protracted state of the weak USD, capitalising upon export markets is a no-brainer.

[CARBIZ]

I'm old enough to remember the original Riviera (which Cadillac decided it didn't want) and the overwhelmingly popular downsized FWD '79 version. Both were the right cars for the right time. This was at a time when GM was still at the top of its game and took no prisoners. Ford and Chrysler scoffed at GM in '77 when they downsized the full-sized Chevrolet lineup, then tripped over themselves to release their own. Chrysler nearly went under because it was too slow to react.

There is no reason Buick cannot tackle Lexus without RWD. Many around here wont' accept that, but that does not mean it cannot happen. Someone else pointed out that the '85 'downsized' Buicks and Olds were a resounding success, and they continued to be even as Acura ramped up. You can see the damage that Roger Smith imposed upon GM in the late '80s as the Olds 88 and LeSabre became more and more alike - that left the door wide open for Acura and Lexus to walk right in. The opportunity lost was the Century and Cutlass - both cars which were the darling of the 30- somethings in the '70s, became boring and obese in the '90s. The 88 could have been the 'old geezer's car,' but the Regal should have stayed on the 30-something's radar, which it did not. I should point out that in '87 (at the ripe old age of 26) I seriously considered the Regal 2 door as my 'gotta have' car, but it was out of my budget. I, along with many others, scoffed at the Acura Legend. I guess no one is laughing now.

Buick can have an American revival without RWD. I don't think it will be the end of the world at $5 a gallon gas. I have to say that the Enclave is getting a lot of 30 something couples stirred up, so they are moving in the right direction.

[Chazman]

DTS/DT7?

Oh, okay. I figured that one was already dead.

[The O.C.]

Here's the problem: CADILLAC should've been "right" 7 years ago when GM "revived" the brand.

Now would be the time to revive OTHER brands if GM had a clue about reviving a brand in the first place.

You know, as much as I like Cadillac, you are RIGHT....!

We have exactly two cars that are worth a damn.....(from a retail-sales standpoint)......CTS and Escalade short-wheelbase.

STS? Dud. DTS? A tiny bit less of a dud than STS. ESV and EXT? Duds, especially compared to their short-wheelbase cousin. SRX? Dud.

All this talk about Cadillac being a "revived" brand is bunk. It's not in ANY way a "revived" brand. It's a brand that just happens to have an award-winning entry/midsize luxury sport sedan, and a high-end SUV that appeals to the bling crowd.

We never should have been saddled with the STS (or we should have had a "true" STS that was as competitive in it's segment as CTS is in it's own), and DTS should have gone away a long time ago.

[Chazman]

I also wonder how successful a two (gulp) ton Camaro will be in an era of $5 gas, and 35mpg CAFE. I mean, WTF!!!

[The O.C.]

Buick can have an American revival without RWD. I don't think it will be the end of the world at $5 a gallon gas. I have to say that the Enclave is getting a lot of 30 something couples stirred up, so they are moving in the right direction.

I don't know if Buick can have an American revival.....at all....at least not like all of us would like to see. But even if it did, the market is way too over-saturated with excellent and exciting choices these days.

It would take something completely off everyone's radar right now to generate the kind of excitement for Buick that would make a difference.

If it were Buick a few years ago, that had brought out a distinctive, full-size, RWD, Corvette-engineed, "Park Avenue".....instead of Chrysler......we very well might be looking at a different Buick today.

But now.....if Buick were to go with the expressive, American-styled, luxurious, RWD, full-size sedan.....well......we already have a 300C out there. Kind of a "been-there, done-that" type of situation.

'Course....considering Ford has been so slow at coming to the game, maybe it wouldn't be as bad to have a "Park Aveune" duking it out with a 300C in the market.

I just don't know....to tell you the truth.....

[vonVeezelsnider]

DTS/DT7?

Hope Not... That would kill Cadillac.

DTS? A tiny bit less of a dud than STS.

Still ain't changing that it looks dead sexy in Black Raven and Blue Chip

[Drew Dowdell]

What pisses me off is GM has a fairly full stable of powerful yet fuel efficient powertrains that could have been used on Zeta. With enough "Quiet Tuning", the 260hp Turbo Eco-tech could have been quite the crowd pleaser. Have the same engine coupled to the Two-mode for uplevel models. The 2.9 litre diesel could have been offered.

Benz used to run S-classes with 2.8 litre, 204hp V6es!

BMW still has 7-series in Europe with 231hp diesels and gassers.

GM has no excuse at all. None. Zero.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Welcome to reality gear heads, old timers and weepy eyed nostolgia fans. Who really thought cheap gas was forever, and CAFE would disappear?

Can scream and hollar all day, write Congress, send email petitions, stop buying gas on Sundays, but we aren't going to see $1-2 a gallon ever again. And wake up, world is not going to go back in time. You think Russia and China is going to stop allowing people to buy new cars, so we can get all the oil we want? And, do you really think GM can 'only be saved by all big RWD cars'?

The only way any large #'s of RWD big sedans will be produced in the future is if they are hybrids, diesels, or all electric cars. Even sane car fans are not eager for a 12 mpg car to drive every day. "Future of GM" is not 1965, and all the unsold big trucks that "Real Americans want" shows that most people are wising up, and moving on.

Listen man,

I'm not a "weepy eyed nostalgia fan" I drive a 4 cylinder car everyday. I own 4 vehicles with V8s and only one of them drives daily and it's the one that you, the taxpayer, buys gas for. Gas could be $10/gallon and it STILL would not affect my collector cars simply because the cars aren't driven enough for it to.

I'm not trying to be mean (just passionate) but your post missed the point of mine.

My point is; why can't GM innovate and give the consumer what he/she wants (large cars) with the fuel economy of smaller cars? What happened to a turbo 4 in Zeta? What happened to the hybrid system for Zeta? It's not the end of the world and despite what you 'realists' think, not everyone is going to drive B Segment cars any time soon.

Mark my words: The company that can innovate and deliver what the customer wants (trucks and large cars) with the efficiency of or efficiency close to small cars will OWN this market in the future. Right now, thanks to GMs apparent inability to EVER LEAD the market again, my bets are on Ford or Hyundai.

Edited May 29, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[gm4life]

I have long said GM needs a balance of RWD and FWD products. With the DI V6 and the 2.9D they have no excuse not to offer a Park Ave state-side. Hell take the one sold in China right now spruce if up a bit and for all I care shove the 3.6L DI in it and I would consider one. *(used)* This is stupid I think Buick should have/can have...

Small Car Skylark (FWD or RWD), Midsize LaX/Invicta (FWD), Large/Premium (New FWD/AWD DTS/Lucerne), Flagship Park Ave (from China), and the Enclave. I wouldn't be mad if the Park Ave got sold stateside and an exclusive product was canceled that was being developed for the US. But this is silly, with all the technology and near 50/50 weight distribution and AWD with the new engine technology this is something they don't nor will have an excuse for. So where is my new Pontiac G6? And G5/Cobalt?

Von your right the DTS is a drop dead sexy car but I like it in White Diamond. That or an STS in Crimson Red.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Ok why are so many shocked and upset? Most here are smart enough to have know this was going to happen.

Why should we NOT be upset?!?

First, GM delays the program for years, then they tease us with amazing concepts for 3 years, then the tempt us with rumors of fuel saving technologies that will help save the program and now they cancel the damn program altogether.

As GM fans, we have been through so much and THESE were our cars. I don't want to buy an AWD Epsilon blob that "with a turbo 4 is as good and cool as blah, blah, blah, hot air, blowing smoke, blah blah."

I want a RWD car with the OPTION of a V8... Is that so hard?!? Ford has done it for 40-something years now.

Second let GM lay out what they plan to to as they did not kill this car off with out some kind of a plan.

Yeah, they have a plan alright.. It's just not a good plan (as usual)

PLAN A: Try to 'get by' with a compromised line up composed of compromised product (I mean, after all this is the norm at GM now) They'll sell the Invicta and Enclave (Unless GME can screw that program over too), give the already outclassed Lucerne a facelift and let it die as the market for large cars "dies off".

You know, just like the market for large cars "died" in the first place (although Chrysler has made a lot of money from them) and just like the market for affordable sports cars "died" (Although Ford and Nissan would beg to differ) and just like the large/luxury coupe market "died" (eventhough Toyota and Infiniti seem to be selling plenty.

And if you haven't 'gotten it' yet; by "die" I mean, GM will stop investing in the product and then when their sales get eaten alive will the deem the niche "dead" without even consulting the reality of the situation.

PLAN B: Starve not only Pontiac, but also Buick for product in order to set things up for the communists from GME to come in and utilize their big 3 division system that has proven so wildly successful across the pond.

It's nothing more that GIVING UP, either way.

GM did not waste a Billion as they have already sold this plaform in many different forms world wide we just got only two of them.

I'll take your word on that...

The fact is GM got burned in the past while still trying to pass of large heavy American cars in times of high gas prices or shortages and they will not do it again. They can't affords to do itr again as the last time it opened the door to MFG from Japan andf this time it will ber China/India.

Detroit does 2 things well. 1) Trucks and 2) large/sports cars. *IF* Detroit gives up these markets (as it seems they are doing), they will literally bleed to death. GM has never proven to the majority of consumers that it can do small and midsize SUCCESSFULLY. Therefore, the consumer will CONTINUE to buy from Japan Inc, not Detroit. Either Detroit innovates and offers the consumer what they do best, or Detroit dies. It's that simple and this is why I insist that CAFE had a hidden agenda, because everyone but Detroit seems to "get it"

Zeta may have worked in the short term but they need to start now and with the money they have to work on a long term solution. GM is having trouble pushing their most populatr vehicles today [trucks/SUV's] due to gas prices. Do you really think a RWD Buick would do very well long term? Just as the G8 and the new trucks those who want it will buy and sales will fade away over the following years.

Not if they keep it fresh and competitive. Sales will fade on ANYTHING if it is allowed to become stale. This isn't just true of large cars and trucks.

Zeta is just too heavy and I am sure GM is either looking at a Revised Zeta that is lighter, an expanded Alpha or some new platform we have not heard named yet. In the end we will get a lighter car that will be better to take on a the future market. Either way to continue the car as it is for only 3-4 years would be a waste of money and is not a long term fix.

GM is working on 1) Epsilon 2 with a whole slew of "CORPORATE" 3.6L V6 offerings and 2) *MAYBE* Alpha which wont be fit for anything larger than a Cobalt companion. NOTHING will replace Zeta, unless you want to fork out for a Cadillac on Sigma.

The bottom line is don't over react and act like a GM Insider expecting a Firebird anyday..

I'm not overreacting. This has gone on long enough. GM either needs to commit to something or just "get lost" IMO

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't know if Buick can have an American revival.....at all....at least not like all of us would like to see. But even if it did, the market is way too over-saturated with excellent and exciting choices these days.

It would take something completely off everyone's radar right now to generate the kind of excitement for Buick that would make a difference.

If it were Buick a few years ago, that had brought out a distinctive, full-size, RWD, Corvette-engineed, "Park Avenue".....instead of Chrysler......we very well might be looking at a different Buick today.

But now.....if Buick were to go with the expressive, American-styled, luxurious, RWD, full-size sedan.....well......we already have a 300C out there. Kind of a "been-there, done-that" type of situation.

'Course....considering Ford has been so slow at coming to the game, maybe it wouldn't be as bad to have a "Park Aveune" duking it out with a 300C in the market.

I just don't know....to tell you the truth.....

He's the difference though...

Buick (Just like every GM division, even Cadillac) needs a PRODUCT revival before anything can even happen in the real world.

I think the Enclave is an excellent start and I don't think Buick will ever sell in numbers again (Like it did at one time) simply because of the market. However, they can grow the division and they have the opportunity to do it now. BUT, since it looks as if Buick will be deprived of product yet again (Just like Cadillac was in the first "revival") the opportunity will be squandered.

As for the DTS/DT7 <--- What a stupid name. I'm sure it'll probably get here one way or another (i.e. it'll be moved to Sigma if needed)

GM has no excuse at all. None. Zero.

My thoughts exactly. It's sheer politics and stupidity IMO.

And for those of you claiming that Buick will be okay with more plebian, Chevrolet-esque offerings... Lincoln/Mercury certainly isn't setting the luxury sales charts on fire, is it?

Edited May 29, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[InvictaMan]

Your assumption that Buick is or could ever be a "Tier 1" luxury brand is incorrect. Forget the cars for a minute. GM doesn't have the vision nor the money to totally revamp the Buick dealer experience to come even close to matching the Lexus customer experience, an always-moving target by the way. In fact, by forcing single brand Buick dealers to pair with worktruck GMC and pedestrian Pontiac, GM is actually shooting itself in the foot in this regard. RWD doesn't fix this fundamental problem.

Amen

[Sixty8panther]

What pisses me off is GM has a fairly full stable of powerful yet fuel efficient powertrains that could have been used on Zeta. With enough "Quiet Tuning", the 260hp Turbo Eco-tech could have been quite the crowd pleaser. Have the same engine coupled to the Two-mode for uplevel models. The 2.9 litre diesel could have been offered.

Benz used to run S-classes with 2.8 litre, 204hp V6es!

BMW still has 7-series in Europe with 231hp diesels and gassers.

GM has no excuse at all. None. Zero.

Agreed.

QUOTE(Chicagoland @ May 29 2008, 12:57 AM) Welcome to reality gear heads, old timers and weepy eyed nostolgia fans. Who really thought cheap gas was forever, and CAFE would disappear?

Can scream and hollar all day, write Congress, send email petitions, stop buying gas on Sundays, but we aren't going to see $1-2 a gallon ever again. And wake up, world is not going to go back in time. You think Russia and China is going to stop allowing people to buy new cars, so we can get all the oil we want? And, do you really think GM can 'only be saved by all big RWD cars'?

The only way any large #'s of RWD big sedans will be produced in the future is if they are hybrids, diesels, or all electric cars. Even sane car fans are not eager for a 12 mpg car to drive every day. "Future of GM" is not 1965, and all the unsold big trucks that "Real Americans want" shows that most people are wising up, and moving on.

12 mpg?

What kind of crystal meth are you smoking exactly?

My BOF, full size, RWD, 425 cubic inch (that's 7.0 liters)

4-bbl Rochester Carb breathing, live axle, TH400 auto

3-speed shifting 1977 Cadillac gets better than 12 mpg.

How the heck do you figure a modern, FI-DOD, 3.5 V6

and 5.7-6.0 liter V8 powered car get anything close to

that? I'm pretty sure big, oversized B-bodys blow those

numbers out of the water and everything about those

cars was from the early 1990s or older.

You sound like a real ignorant dope with an axe to grind

when you make dumb statements like that.

[VenSeattle]

You know, as much as I like Cadillac, you are RIGHT....!

We have exactly two cars that are worth a damn.....(from a retail-sales standpoint)......CTS and Escalade short-wheelbase.

STS? Dud. DTS? A tiny bit less of a dud than STS. ESV and EXT? Duds, especially compared to their short-wheelbase cousin. SRX? Dud.

All this talk about Cadillac being a "revived" brand is bunk. It's not in ANY way a "revived" brand. It's a brand that just happens to have an award-winning entry/midsize luxury sport sedan, and a high-end SUV that appeals to the bling crowd.

We never should have been saddled with the STS (or we should have had a "true" STS that was as competitive in it's segment as CTS is in it's own), and DTS should have gone away a long time ago.

I was thinking about this earlier today... for decades Cadillac couldn't build a competent small luxury sedan to compliment their large luxury sedans. Now that Cadillac has one, it can't build a competent large luxury sedan... sad...

What's worse? I went to the Cadillac dealer a few evenings ago. The CTS is attractive inside and out, but I prefer the STS exterior and proportions. And there's just something seriously odd with the DTS' front-end styling.

The Chinese SLS would be a perfect replacement for them both.

I'm not going to get into the Buick dead/alive debate. It's just pointless here.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I was thinking about this earlier today... for decades Cadillac couldn't build a competent small luxury sedan to compliment their large luxury sedans. Now that Cadillac has one, it can't build a competent large luxury sedan... sad...

What's worse? I went to the Cadillac dealer a few evenings ago. The CTS is attractive inside and out, but I prefer the STS exterior and proportions. And there's just something seriously odd with the DTS' front-end styling.

The Chinese SLS would be a perfect replacement for them both.

I'm not going to get into the Buick dead/alive debate. It's just pointless here.

Buick is not dead, why would GME be the Homeroom of Epsilon II and Alpha and then turn around and kill the Invicta/new LaCrosse that's on EP II? That's not logical, now is it? It's been purported that I favor and even wish for the death of Buick, again not true. Think about what GME is the Homeroom of, do you actually think it's not going to give a version of those cars to Buick? I would think there is an Alpha heading to Buick, but hey, what do I know!

[VenSeattle]

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

I was thinking about this earlier today... for decades Cadillac couldn't build a competent small luxury sedan to compliment their large luxury sedans. Now that Cadillac has one, it can't build a competent large luxury sedan... sad...

What's worse? I went to the Cadillac dealer a few evenings ago. The CTS is attractive inside and out, but I prefer the STS exterior and proportions. And there's just something seriously odd with the DTS' front-end styling.

The Chinese SLS would be a perfect replacement for them both.

I'm not going to get into the Buick dead/alive debate. It's just pointless here.

Depends on your definition of 'small,' doesn't it? The original Seville was 'small' by Detroit's standards of the day. It was a decently competent vehicle - even beautiful. It was the second generation that ruined that name.

[hyperv6]

Buick is not dead... a little more delayed but not dead.

As for the wisdom of not moving ahead with the Zetas it the end it will prove to be a wise move. Why put more money into a platform that will not live very long, is over weight and to make it right has to be more than a rebadged Holden. You can sell Truck and even the 300 Sales are not staggering. So it is time to take a step back and do this right the first time.

Just because the Zeta is canceled it does not mean RWD is gone. A enlarged Alpha can be done easily at the point it is at right now or a sister to the CTS would also make a very good Buick. It takes litte imagination to understand the options they have.

As PCS has pointed out the new Invicta will show how far a Delta II can be pushed so a Lighter and a little smaller Buick may just fit the bill very well.

As for the G8 it got a pass just because it was a rebadged Holden. FOr what little cost to make it a Pontiac made it a no brainer to move ahead. Also the Camaro is in a Class of it's own. It will sell V8 engines no mattter the cost of Gas to the enthusiast while the V6 program is going to pretty much back this car. You will be shocked at the V6 program once it is anounced. It leaves off where the 4th Gen SS left off.

At this point how many of the true Lutz cars have been very far off the mark? It is time for many to start trusting in what he is doing as he has now given proof he has got a clue to what people want.

It is better for Buicks health now to build for 10 years ahead vs getting hit like they did with a lot of 2 ton Duce and Quarters back in 1973-76. Back then it took them 5 years to pull ahead and in the end ended up with much better cars than what they had.

Time to trusting in Lutz and company. This is not the same group of Roger Smith idiots we had before.

Would you ever had though anyone could have converted the Malibu back into a car people would demand just 2 years ago? Or offer Saturns people would really want and not just be the only car they could afford.

Edited May 30, 2008 by hyperv6

[ketch]

It should not have to be so difficult to be a GM enthusiast. The more news like I this I hear day by day, the more I defect to another automaker. I am still keeping my ear to the ground for GM, but more and more I find myself tuning in elsewhere.

New can of worms to be opened: what does this mean for "Omega," the rear-drive platform which was slated to replace Zeta and Sigma?

While Ford has promised us up to five new rear-drive vehicles and shows no sign of deviating from its future plans, GM can't seem to get it's &#036;h&#33; together.

and remember, the Hyundai rear drive V8 is here now. DoD V8's (like the Impala SS has), e85, even a hybrid like the coming 2010 Commodore, why Bob (Lutz)? You know better. Shame shame.

[Camino LS6]

Bunk!

GM blew it with Zeta: too little and a decade too late.

Too many delays.

Too much indecision.

Too many course changes.

Too many name changes.

And now, to add insult to injury, they toss Zeta aside while completely ignoring the fact that it can meet the goals that it would need to to remain relevant in the market.

Nothing but bold new product will ever save GM, and yet they toss this wonderful potentail aside in favor of the same old bland crap no one has wanted for decades.

And yes, I'm pissed about it.

[DetroitNut90]

This sounds almost like what went on with the NG minivans: canceled before even given a chance. I suppose it's not as bad, though, since GM is keeping Lambda on the books. Such an egregious waste of precious money.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Buick is not dead, why would GME be the Homeroom of Epsilon II and Alpha and then turn around and kill the Invicta/new LaCrosse that's on EP II? That's not logical, now is it? It's been purported that I favor and even wish for the death of Buick, again not true. Think about what GME is the Homeroom of, do you actually think it's not going to give a version of those cars to Buick? I would think there is an Alpha heading to Buick, but hey, what do I know!

And this is exactly what is wrong with you and the supposed legion of GME people you talk up.

Alpha has no place at Buick, especially since Cadillac is getting the platform as well. I can't wait to watch Buick (The "old mans brand") try to foist Acura fighting Alphas on a population that hasn't given a sh*t about the division since they were born. Sounds like a recipe for success to me!

And yes... It's not about the product or GM in general, or taking back the market is it? It's all about a bullsh*t power trip that you say you and your friends are leading. have fun failing miserably, I'll be driving my Fords and BMWs while I'm laughing.

And BTW, why would GME be the homeroom of Alpha anyway? It's not like you guys have ever been able to pull something like that off. What is GMNA doing now, nothing?

Edited May 30, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Buick is not dead... a little more delayed but not dead.

If Buick sees significant delays in new product; it IS dead. End of story. The public barely accepted a half-assed Cadillac revival, it certainly will not accept a half-assed Buick revival because the 'goodwill' is not there.

Just because the Zeta is canceled it does not mean RWD is gone. A enlarged Alpha can be done easily at the point it is at right now or a sister to the CTS would also make a very good Buick. It takes litte imagination to understand the options they have.

WRONG.

Buick will not receive Sigma because Buick cannot sell at the price to justify Sigma. Not to mention, cadillac would NEVER let that happen. They would, as PCS says, whisper into the ear of GME to prevent it. It's a damn wonder that Buick is even ALLOWED top have Alpha. And as long as Alpha is 'homeroomed' at GME, there will be no 'enlarging' because it does not benefit the almighty GME to do so.

The writing is on the wall... Zeta dies, Alpha becomes a euro-pu**y platform for Mini wannabes. GMNA is a subsidiary of GME because the regs are now "the same" GMNA, no longer an important market since GMNA has squandered future product plans and wasted PRECIOUS time will 'make do' with 36 different Epsilons through eventually fewer divisions. (To match their articficially deflated market share, via stupidity) Holden will be folded into GME and will begin offering Daewoos as gas is "surely set to destroy the car culture there too"

As PCS has pointed out the new Invicta will show how far a Delta II can be pushed so a Lighter and a little smaller Buick may just fit the bill very well.

Yeah... Because GM can afford to market THAT car enough to change the perception of Buick = Big.

As for the G8 it got a pass just because it was a rebadged Holden. FOr what little cost to make it a Pontiac made it a no brainer to move ahead. Also the Camaro is in a Class of it's own. It will sell V8 engines no mattter the cost of Gas to the enthusiast while the V6 program is going to pretty much back this car. You will be shocked at the V6 program once it is anounced. It leaves off where the 4th Gen SS left off.

G8 will be phased out as Holden is, as our friend from GME says, "integrated". No way the 'braintrust' at GM will allow this "gas guzzler" to exist given the small amount of money and share it brings in. F5 camaro will be used to condition us that a V6 Camaro is "acceptable", which it is so long as a V8 is available. Then I'd say F6 will phase the V8 out altogether or make it so damn expensive and exclusive that no one can buy it except Vette buyers.

Not a bright future at all... And all because GM refuses to innovate and lead.

At this point how many of the true Lutz cars have been very far off the mark? It is time for many to start trusting in what he is doing as he has now given proof he has got a clue to what people want.

Once again, the writing is on the wall... As PCS has stated; Zeta was Lutz baby... Pontiac was Lutz baby... The RWD Impala was Lutz baby... And as PCS has stated, Lutz is no longer running the show. RWD Impala: CANCELED Zeta: Might as well be CANCELED and for all intents and purposes, it looks as if Pontiac is CANCELED as well.

Lutz will see GM through the rollout of the Volt, take credit for it, and parachute out on a golden rainbow. Then the place will fall to hell since the beancounters are at the reigns again.

Time to trusting in Lutz and company. This is not the same group of Roger Smith idiots we had before.

Oh, but it is... The old culture is alive and well. Look no further than the pages of C&G for that

Would you ever had though anyone could have converted the Malibu back into a car people would demand just 2 years ago? Or offer Saturns people would really want and not just be the only car they could afford.

Malibu is hot, but isn't pulling numbers... Saturn is as cool as a moon rock despite the apparently magical Opel influence.

Edited May 30, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM