W-Body to live into 2012?

[VenSeattle]

IIRC people have posted that there's a chance of the Malibu becoming Chevrolet's large 4-door notchback beginning in 2010, with the Global Epsilon Chevrolet beginning in 2012 being the Epica's replacement. LWB and SWB variants of EpII.

See, and I disagree with that line of reasoning for several reasons

1) The current Malibu is very competitive and still new. Replacing it in two years while leaving the Impala in play on W doesn't make sense.

2) It's already confirmed the current Malibu remains in production at Fairfax through 2011 (perfect timing for a 2012 replacement).

3) Moving Malibu to a large sedan two years before the Epica replacement would leave a huge gap between the compact Cobalt & Large Malibu within the Chevrolet line-up

So, basically, I believe the next-gen Malibu will be the global Epica replacement. It just makes sense for the first EPS II-based Chevrolet to be a premium/flagship FWD/AWD large sedan (and replacing the oldest sedan in the line-up). Then follow-up with a mainstream EP-II mid-size debut two years later.

Malibu has finally made a name for itself as a Camry competitor. Why would GM try to reposition it into an Avalon competitor and then establish yet another new mainstream mid-size sedan calling it something else? It just seems ridiculous.

[CARBIZ]

You know, some of you guys just don't get it. What I like about selling Chevrolet is that I have TWO large cars to show a prospect. You guys are so f'ing big on choices, AS LONG AS THEY ARE MATCH YOUR TASTES. So friggin' what if a 60 year old likes the Impala ....guess, what - he has money and his credit is better than the Corolla/Cobalt buyer. The Malibu and Impala are quite different in ride, handling and styling - THAT'S GREAT, in my estimation. Guess what, if a Toyo buyer hates the look or ride of the Camry, Toyota just lost him/her. I get TWO chances. Choice is great, isn't it? Frankly, I prefer the ride/handling of the Impala. My only real beef is the dash guages look a little cheap. And where do you armchair know it alls get the impression the Impy is discounted any more than any other vehicle? Customers gravitate to either the Impala or the Malibu.

I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but at a GM meeting last week they produced a new study that showed something consumer recognition for the name, brand and respect for the name was significantly higher on the Impala than the average family sedan. I can post the exact stats tomorrow when I get to my office and pull my copy of the slide show that they produced.

Is there room for improvement? Always. But you self-appointed experts piling on because the Impala is not your taste is just stupid. Leave the G8 to Pontiac. GM does not have the money to refresh every model every year. I'd love to see you guys run a company and stick to any sort of operational/capital budget.

While I'm on the subject, I'm going to let you have it on another topic, too: who the f'ck cares if the Camry is 'soul less?' What is the definition of 'soul' anyway? I wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry because it is ugly (IMO) and it is a Toyota. It has no more or less soul than an Accord, Impala or Altima.

I am not the one who needs to get 'perspective.' It is my LIFE to learn what strengths and weaknesses the competition has. I don't get to play on C&G for 30 minutes a day just because my inflatable doll just sprang a leak, or my Xbox needs to be rebooted.

Re-read the Businessweek article 'Tyranny of the Enthusiasts' that was posted here about 2 years ago. Now that is good reading.

[The O.C.]

You know, some of you guys just don't get it. What I like about selling Chevrolet is that I have TWO large cars to show a prospect. You guys are so f'ing big on choices, AS LONG AS THEY ARE MATCH YOUR TASTES. So friggin' what if a 60 year old likes the Impala ....guess, what - he has money and his credit is better than the Corolla/Cobalt buyer. The Malibu and Impala are quite different in ride, handling and styling - THAT'S GREAT, in my estimation.

Problem is, my friend, the market doesn't agree with you.

Your affection for the Impala is notable....but it's the wrong car, at the wrong time, for a GM that's trying to reverse a disasterous market share slide.

It's not just about product (as many would have you think) it's also, unfortunately, about perception, image, perceived quality, and market acceptance. Those are things the Impala LACKS in spades.

That's the reality. Regardless of the banter you or I or anyone else on here might get into. The real question is....WHAT will it take for GM to regain it's market dominance? I'll tell you...it's not with cars like the Impala.

We can all sit here for days upon days arguing the merits of 6- or 7- or 8-speed automatic transmissions.......or in-dash navigation systems......or multi-valve engines......or <insert favorite technology here>.......but the fact of the matter is......the longer GM lags behind the competition in bringing these supposedly accepted and sought-after technologies to the market, along with their unispiring designs (like Impala).....the further their market share will fall.

[CARBIZ]

First of all, GM has not lost its market dominance. Boy, when you guys start crapping on GM, you go all the way! GM outsells Toyota and HOnda in every market segment, except maybe the hybrids - and wait until the GMT-900 hybrids hit the market! Woah! GM still outsells Honda and Toyota, combined. There certainly are kinks in the armor, but like we've yakked about before, GM is fighting a war on a dozen different fronts. Every manufacturer is after GM, not just Toyota.

So, the Camry and Accord outsell the Impala? BFD! What about the combined Malibu/Impala/Allure sales? As I have said before, there is no shame in GM dropping to 20% market share - that was inevitable, IMO. The real miracle is how did they manage to stay above 35% for so long?

I'd love to have a new Impala tomorrow, but y'know - I'd rather have the Volt, thanks. As I said before (and you guys conveniently ignored) the $C has nearly doubled in the past 4 years. The business model for Oshawa (where the Impala is built,BTW) has done a 180. I can only imagine what kind of a wrench that has put in GM's plans. I know it has the CAW &#036;h&#33;ting bricks.

[The O.C.]

First of all, GM has not lost its market dominance. Boy, when you guys start crapping on GM, you go all the way! GM outsells Toyota and HOnda in every market segment, except maybe the hybrids - and wait until the GMT-900 hybrids hit the market! Woah! GM still outsells Honda and Toyota, combined. There certainly are kinks in the armor, but like we've yakked about before, GM is fighting a war on a dozen different fronts. Every manufacturer is after GM, not just Toyota.

So, the Camry and Accord outsell the Impala? BFD! What about the combined Malibu/Impala/Allure sales? As I have said before, there is no shame in GM dropping to 20% market share - that was inevitable, IMO. The real miracle is how did they manage to stay above 35% for so long?

I'd love to have a new Impala tomorrow, but y'know - I'd rather have the Volt, thanks. As I said before (and you guys conveniently ignored) the $C has nearly doubled in the past 4 years. The business model for Oshawa (where the Impala is built,BTW) has done a 180. I can only imagine what kind of a wrench that has put in GM's plans. I know it has the CAW &#036;h&#33;ting bricks.

hell....my paycheck now again is based upon GM's success in the marketplace. I'm now working for a Cadillac store.

You know what? Even at Cadillac, there are just two....TWO cars.....that hold any interest in the marketplace.....the CTS...and the short-wheelbase Escalade. Where's our new STS? Or our new DTS replacement? How about a truly competitive XLR that draws customers like an SL Benz does?

I have high hopes for the BRX.....as a great competitior to the RX.....but how long will we wait for that product too?

It's same-ole....same-ole for GM my friend....and that's not good.....

[wildcat]

I noticed that someone said that the LaCrosse W-body will also soldier on until 2012. Is that correct? If so, that would seem to me to insure that the new Epsilon II will be called "Invicta."

[ EDIT ] Car and Driver is where it said about the LaCrosse. here

Edited May 21, 2008 by wildcat

[enzl]

First of all, GM has not lost its market dominance. Boy, when you guys start crapping on GM, you go all the way! GM outsells Toyota and HOnda in every market segment, except maybe the hybrids - and wait until the GMT-900 hybrids hit the market! Woah! GM still outsells Honda and Toyota, combined. There certainly are kinks in the armor, but like we've yakked about before, GM is fighting a war on a dozen different fronts. Every manufacturer is after GM, not just Toyota.

So, the Camry and Accord outsell the Impala? BFD! What about the combined Malibu/Impala/Allure sales? As I have said before, there is no shame in GM dropping to 20% market share - that was inevitable, IMO. The real miracle is how did they manage to stay above 35% for so long?

I'd love to have a new Impala tomorrow, but y'know - I'd rather have the Volt, thanks. As I said before (and you guys conveniently ignored) the $C has nearly doubled in the past 4 years. The business model for Oshawa (where the Impala is built,BTW) has done a 180. I can only imagine what kind of a wrench that has put in GM's plans. I know it has the CAW &#036;h&#33;ting bricks.

Check last month's sales figures.

This is how wrong you are: Toyota (the brand) has outsold Chevy or Ford nameplates in the US for 2008. Period.

GM needs great product, immediately. They're still at 20%+ Fleet sales---and dropping marketshare.

Here's the difference in POV: I'm in the ambulance with a heart-attack victim, you're advising him about diet. If the alarms haven't sounded by now, well....

I guess we'll just call it a difference of opinion.

[gm4life]

Choices are always good. So where will the EP-II Malibu be built?

[turbo200]

From the sound of your reply to Moltar, the current Impala buyers shouldn't matter to GM since it’s such an uninspiring vehicle.

And regardless if you think GM will break away from its old ways or not, GM has confirmed in the UAW agreement two new Chevrolet sedans for production within the next 4 years. Why anyone would think a CAW agreement would/could/should alter GM's UAW agreement or trump it is beyond me. One union agreement will not replace the other. That's guaranteed.

If anything, GM is definitely up to its old ways and will roll out a new large sedan on Epsilon II while selling the w-Impala for fleet (Impala or Impala Classic...). I don't see why that's so hard for most of you to see if you're actually being rational. For the most part, I see a bunch of people jumping off the deep end to berate GM for keeping the w-platform around two extra years.

I think traditional Impala customers, those that buy Impala because of the 'Impala name' and those that buy Impala because it's a Chevrolet large sedan, I think there are very few left of those. We could go on for hours with conjecture about where they went, but suffice to say, GM's dominance of the midsize and large sedan segment has evaporated, and with it the perception that there even is a large car segment, as GM used to own it all.

I think most Impala buyers are buying it because [a] it's very cheap and can be steeply negotiated/rebated down in price to the point where it costs less than a Malibu it's still economical and reliable since it's using proven tech and GM has rightfully earned that rep and [c] it's a big car.

No where in that analysis of the reasons for their purchase did I include loyal buyers drawn only to the name. I didn't include a loyalty to GM or the Impala nameplate, because as I said those buyers are dwindling; it's likely many already graduated to Cadillac or one of GM's SUVs, it's also likely some are now going for a smaller car in GM's lineup, it's also most probably many of those buyers were drawn over to the dark side, the imports. In that analysis I didn't include Impala being a top-tier competitor since it has none of the qualities to be there, except maybe fuel economy on a V6 engine.

So the point I'm getting at is that none of these buyers are drawn to the Impala in its current state for any dramatic reason. It's nothing more than a reliable appliance.

If you accept that as truth [there is no reason any reasonable person shouldn't given sales and what we know of transaction prices for the average Impala, along with the horrible resale value, this is for the unmotivated thinkers here, resale value shows you how much demand there is for the supply of any given product], if you accept the truth, then you must also know this is an incredibly competitive marketplace and only going to get so much moreso. How many times must I say this? The next Impala to draw buyers effectively and not just sell based on incredibly cheap prices, to create this aura of a winning GM and great Chevy cars, to get the buying public at large to notice GM, and not just those steeped in Domestic America Wonderland, to do all this, it must be different, and a winner.

Therefore, replacing this Impala with a notchback like you stated would make sense to me since I'm always for out of the box thinking and I don't see a good reason to offer a relatively large NG Malibu and a somewhat larger EP II NG Impala. It's called overlap, I've seen it done many times with GM where they spent the money and the return is minimal and we're back to square one, and I've ridiculed them in the past for it, so no way am I for it now. Making it large and also offering a flexible cargo box, along with some muscular mean design that builds on Chevy's past might make for an interesting Impala. If done right.

You know when I first read you mention it I immediately had a picture drawn in my head of a large, wide, squat sedan looking car from the front with some SS concept cues like the Malibu on the front, and a very Toronado like rear, with a steeply sloping rear C-pillar. I think that could be cool. If they could keep the weight down and even offer an efficient 4 cylinder along with a very noticably more efficient hybrid [unlike the current crap thier peddling] this could be a very suitable mass market car and an interesting one at that.

Edited May 21, 2008 by turbo200

[turbo200]

So, the Camry and Accord outsell the Impala? BFD! What about the combined Malibu/Impala/Allure sales? As I have said before, there is no shame in GM dropping to 20% market share - that was inevitable, IMO. The real miracle is how did they manage to stay above 35% for so long?

so, let me get this straight, and thank God you're a car salesman and not involved with investment management somewhere, oh and might I mention I love that you think you're very qualified to make this statement. but let me get it straight. so, once, GM owned over 50% of the marketplace. yeah, given the circumstances, new nameplates being introduced into the market, absolutely there was going to be some shrinking of the share, but the market itself also expanded. so we go into the early '90's and we're down to 35% of the market, still a big majority! now we're down to barely 20%, less than 20% if you're looking at it from a retail perspective, and we should all be patting them on the back?!?????

I know you're Canadian, but the market is very different here. We matter, and not your $C dollar. when you want to have a discussion about your canadian dollar and the canadian marketplace please feel free to do so with Canadian friends. We here are talking about our market, in which over 16 million vehicles are sold anually, of which your country only sells a small fraction of. Gosh, it's like somebody from Mexico coming in here and trying to add perspective on the Mexican car market, no one cares! It's our market that is the lucrative one that everyone is fighting to get a piece out of.

as for your argument on GM's market dominance, I would not go there if I were you. there is no market dominance anywhere from GM......let's see the CTS comes close to the top of its segment, the Impala's artificially enhanced sales figures are close to the top in its segment..........Silverado is second.............let's take a look at even the '80's, much less '60's and '70's to see how drastically different that story would have been then. hmmmpp....must have something to do wiht the way the company is managed

Edited May 21, 2008 by turbo200

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'd like to know what the second Zeta is going to be...

Does this mean that the program hasn't been cancelled?

Could it be the G8 coupe? Not likely, I know as 1) who knows if we'll even see it and 2) It can probably just as easily be produced in Oz given the volume.

Maybe the Lucerne replacement?

Maybe the DTS/STS replacement? But I figured that would be assembled at Lansing, I'm not sure why, maybe I just read it somewhere.

Maybe a Denali XT type of vehicle?

Edited May 21, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Toyota.vs.GM]

I noticed that someone said that the LaCrosse W-body will also soldier on until 2012. Is that correct? If so, that would seem to me to insure that the new Epsilon II will be called "Invicta."

[ EDIT ] Car and Driver is where it said about the LaCrosse. here

Car and Driver info is wrong. W-Body LaCrosse production ends in GM's 4Q. The Epsilon II LaCrosse(for both North America and China) production starts in January.

[wildcat]

Car and Driver info is wrong. W-Body LaCrosse production ends in GM's 4Q.

Toyota.vs.GM: Thank you (and thank goodness!).

[daves87rs]

The longer the W-Body Impala is around, the more that this classic nameplate will stagnate and rapidly lose whatever prestige it has clung to.

GM would be wise not to totally desecrate the Impala name with outdated squaller (W-Body architecture).

I'm afraid it's already too late for that...

[Blake Noble]

I'm afraid it's already too late for that...

I believe the Impala nameplate can be saved if the car is re-embodied to be an affordable, aspirational quality vehicle like it once was. The W-Body Impala is not a car anyone can honestly aspire to own. It is a car the buyer chooses to buy because it offered a lot of space for little money. To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Costco selling these in a specially designated section of their store. It does seem to fit with Costco's ideology, after all.

[Robert Hall]

I believe the Impala nameplate can be saved if the car is re-embodied to be an affordable, aspirational quality vehicle like it once was. The W-Body Impala is not a car anyone can honestly aspire to own. It is a car the buyer chooses to buy because it offered a lot of space for little money. To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Costco selling these in a specially designated section of their store. It does seem to fit with Costco's ideology, after all.

I could see Costco or Sam's Club selling them.... 'Chevrolet Kirkland' for Costco and 'Chevrolet Generica' for Sam's Club..

[daves87rs]

I believe the Impala nameplate can be saved if the car is re-embodied to be an affordable, aspirational quality vehicle like it once was. The W-Body Impala is not a car anyone can honestly aspire to own. It is a car the buyer chooses to buy because it offered a lot of space for little money. To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Costco selling these in a specially designated section of their store. It does seem to fit with Costco's ideology, after all.

I'd have to disagree with that.

I'm the only person that would consider and Impy at this point-even my friends who drive/like Domestics won't touch this car with a ten foot pole anymore. It's quickly turning into the old Tarurs....

Hell, even the Sonata looks better at this pricepoint...

I think if I got the right deal for an Impy, I'd get one. ( I still think they are nice looking )

But it would make more sense to get an LS/1LT Bu' at that price....

[vonVeezelsnider]

It's Curtains for teh Impala name after this tho... At least until Oshawa is closed- or does the nameplate die with the plant?

[cire]

I believe the Impala nameplate can be saved if the car is re-embodied to be an affordable, aspirational quality vehicle like it once was. The W-Body Impala is not a car anyone can honestly aspire to own. It is a car the buyer chooses to buy because it offered a lot of space for little money. To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Costco selling these in a specially designated section of their store. It does seem to fit with Costco's ideology, after all.

I agree that the "Impala" moniker can indeed be salvaged. Look at what Chevy has done with the "Malibu" name plate. Before the 2008 model arrived, I would never have equated the name "Malibu" with "desirable midsize sedan" (based on the 2 previous frumpy generations). With just one great design, Chevy salvaged the great "Malibu" name and made it relevant in the market once again. I believe they could do the same thing for the "Impala" name if they properly design/engineer/execute the vehicle. GM really does need to stop the practice of changing model names so often, especially when the names could be salvaged with great product (as much as I dislike the sterile and bland "Cobalt" name, I guess they need to stick with it when the next generation arrives; I personally would love to see them resurrect the "Monza" name for the next generation).

[Sixty8panther]

I'd rather have the Impala name die than be "reborn" as another POS FWD car

that amazes no one other than a former Camry owner.

[Blake Noble]

I could see Costco or Sam's Club selling them.... 'Chevrolet Kirkland' for Costco and 'Chevrolet Generica' for Sam's Club..

It is a shame, really.

The Impala is an example of the old GM way of thinking where cars were sort of engineered to a sort of "disposable" standard.

Edited May 21, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Robert Hall]

It is a shame, really.

The Impala is an example of the old GM way of thinking where cars were sort of engineered to a sort of "disposable" standard.

Yes, too much like an updated '90s Lumina.

[Sixty8panther]

Agreed. The W-body never quite shook its Lumina/FWD Cutlass

proportions, overall styling theme & feel, even the LaCrosse.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

so, let me get this straight, and thank God you're a car salesman and not involved with investment management somewhere, oh and might I mention I love that you think you're very qualified to make this statement. but let me get it straight. so, once, GM owned over 50% of the marketplace. yeah, given the circumstances, new nameplates being introduced into the market, absolutely there was going to be some shrinking of the share, but the market itself also expanded. so we go into the early '90's and we're down to 35% of the market, still a big majority! now we're down to barely 20%, less than 20% if you're looking at it from a retail perspective, and we should all be patting them on the back?!?????

I know you're Canadian, but the market is very different here. We matter, and not your $C dollar. when you want to have a discussion about your canadian dollar and the canadian marketplace please feel free to do so with Canadian friends. We here are talking about our market, in which over 16 million vehicles are sold anually, of which your country only sells a small fraction of. Gosh, it's like somebody from Mexico coming in here and trying to add perspective on the Mexican car market, no one cares! It's our market that is the lucrative one that everyone is fighting to get a piece out of.

as for your argument on GM's market dominance, I would not go there if I were you. there is no market dominance anywhere from GM......let's see the CTS comes close to the top of its segment, the Impala's artificially enhanced sales figures are close to the top in its segment..........Silverado is second.............let's take a look at even the '80's, much less '60's and '70's to see how drastically different that story would have been then. hmmmpp....must have something to do wiht the way the company is managed

Actually, as gas prices rise and the imports ratchet up their business plans, the Canadian market and the American market are becoming more and more similar. I've seen stats that show GM's market share is about the same north and south of the border, with the same steep drops in major markets (L.A., Miami, Toronto, Houston, etc.). You can slam Canada if you want, sir, but GM sells nearly a half million vehicles there - I doubt they can afford to dismiss those sales.

You, my friend, are falling into the same half-baked, half-thought out arguments as real critics do: GM dominates the pickup market. The Sierra/Silverado outsells the F-150 in both countries. I've seen figures that the Impala/Malibu/LaCrosse/Aura/G6 outsell either the Accord or the Camry, so where do you get off saying GM does not dominate in any one market? It dominates in most. Let's look beyond the headlines, shall we?

I think Carbiz comments about Canada have more to do with the fact that Oshawa was once the cheapest plant to run (when the Canadian dollar was .65 plus the free healthcare) but now that plant is one of the most expensive. GM has to look at all its options, no? Putting a RWD Impala replacement would have made sense at .65, but not so much at $1.01, wouldn't you agree?

For the record, I drive an Impala. Had it two years. Love it. Never had any problems. I routinely get over 30 mpg in my daily commute. Prefer it over my neighbor's TL (he has to put premium gas - boy is he screaming now!). Heck, my wife's Tracker doesn't get much better gas mileage than my Impala!

I see a lot of shouting, a lot of opinions, but not much substance on this board lately.

[The O.C.]

Actually, as gas prices rise and the imports ratchet up their business plans, the Canadian market and the American market are becoming more and more similar. I've seen stats that show GM's market share is about the same north and south of the border, with the same steep drops in major markets (L.A., Miami, Toronto, Houston, etc.). You can slam Canada if you want, sir, but GM sells nearly a half million vehicles there - I doubt they can afford to dismiss those sales.

You, my friend, are falling into the same half-baked, half-thought out arguments as real critics do: GM dominates the pickup market. The Sierra/Silverado outsells the F-150 in both countries. I've seen figures that the Impala/Malibu/LaCrosse/Aura/G6 outsell either the Accord or the Camry, so where do you get off saying GM does not dominate in any one market? It dominates in most. Let's look beyond the headlines, shall we?

I think Carbiz comments about Canada have more to do with the fact that Oshawa was once the cheapest plant to run (when the Canadian dollar was .65 plus the free healthcare) but now that plant is one of the most expensive. GM has to look at all its options, no? Putting a RWD Impala replacement would have made sense at .65, but not so much at $1.01, wouldn't you agree?

For the record, I drive an Impala. Had it two years. Love it. Never had any problems. I routinely get over 30 mpg in my daily commute. Prefer it over my neighbor's TL (he has to put premium gas - boy is he screaming now!). Heck, my wife's Tracker doesn't get much better gas mileage than my Impala!

I see a lot of shouting, a lot of opinions, but not much substance on this board lately.

I don't think Turbo meant to "slam" Canada, just to make the point that the (small) size of the market is hardly an accurate barometer of GM's success (or failure.)

As far as GM's combined makes selling close to, or outselling, the singular Camry or Accord.....I don't know if that's true or not.......but let's consider it IS true. If that's case, GM has exhausted a vast amount of money to develop, market, and advertise five different models among four different brands......just to (supposedly) equal the effort of one Toyota or one Honda.

To me....that doesn't seem like the most sound business case.......

Honda's Accord has been a market success with just one architecure underpinning one car. Toyota has done it with two (Camry and ES.)

[Drew Dowdell]

Here's the difference in POV: I'm in the ambulance with a heart-attack victim, you're advising him about diet. If the alarms haven't sounded by now, well....

You may be in the ambulance, but you're just yelling "You're doing it wrong!!!" at the guy doing the CPR and showing him the prescription for asprin you wrote 3 years ago.

[Drew Dowdell]

Honda's Accord has been a market success with just one architecure underpinning one car. Toyota has done it with two (Camry and ES.)

uh... TL, Avalon, RL........ Ridgeline ;-) ?

[enzl]

You may be in the ambulance, but you're just yelling "You're doing it wrong!!!" at the guy doing the CPR and showing him the prescription for asprin you wrote 3 years ago.

Hey, brother...You got ideas? I do...I've been giving a prescription (sic) to this company for years....the last 2+ on this board. I've been quoted in a very noted business journal saying the exact same things 3+ years ago. Is that the kind of proof you need to show I'm for real and you're just a fanboy with an internet connection?

You can hate on me, but please don't try and play it like I'm on the bandwagon now. You're just trying to be cute in order to score some points with similarly minded posters--how about an original idea or two, genius? Or sipping on a can of STFU?

They are doing it wrong, they've been doing it wrong for years and I'm going to yell it 'til I'm blue in the face---they are so wrong that I can't believe even someone like you can't see it....but, hey, it's easier to be a snarky anonymous a** who sucks up to the lowest common denominator here. I get it. You're an apologist.

[enzl]

I see a lot of shouting, a lot of opinions, but not much substance on this board lately.

The powers-that-be here have managed to chase away anyone with a divergent opinion---as well as their own mod (without a peep) because the site has become a dumping ground for the Lowest Common Denominator. Add in the racist displays masquerading as 'free speech' and its no wonder all of the intelligence has been drained from the place.

It's really sad, as there was a time in the recent past where multiple sources of interesting info would congregate and discuss--and even disagree--without the empty rhetoric. Now its a pissing match of one-liners...

I'm hoping for better in the future. Maybe Flybrian will return and rescue the place from itself.

[z28luvr01]

I see a lot of shouting, a lot of opinions, but not much substance on this board lately.

The powers-that-be here have managed to chase away anyone with a divergent opinion---as well as their own mod (without a peep) because the site has become a dumping ground for the Lowest Common Denominator. Add in the racist displays masquerading as 'free speech' and its no wonder all of the intelligence has been drained from the place.

It's really sad, as there was a time in the recent past where multiple sources of interesting info would congregate and discuss--and even disagree--without the empty rhetoric. Now its a pissing match of one-liners...

I'm hoping for better in the future. Maybe Flybrian will return and rescue the place from itself.

In the meantime, I have something for you right here.

We've always said that we're the home of GM's Biggest Fans and Toughest Critics. The caveat is that criticism has to come from a desire to see the company do well, not go bankrupt or get steamrolled by Toyota as retribution for past sins. So here's the opportunity for anyone who doesn't approve of GM's direction to step up to the plate and put their money where their mouths are. Tell us how YOU would fix GM if you were in the CEO's seat.

[enzl]

In the meantime, I have something for you right here.

We've always said that we're the home of GM's Biggest Fans and Toughest Critics. The caveat is that criticism has to come from a desire to see the company do well, not go bankrupt or get steamrolled by Toyota as retribution for past sins. So here's the opportunity for anyone who doesn't approve of GM's direction to step up to the plate and put their money where their mouths are. Tell us how YOU would fix GM if you were in the CEO's seat.

Done.

[Drew Dowdell]

You're an apologist.

Not exactly.

I've had my ideas. I've posted them on this board. I've even emailed them directly to Lutz and gotten an answer. I've hated on some of GM's cars. I've shown the luv to Honda and Ford. I roll my eyes at how in-freaaakingly-credibly long it's taking to get the Camaro out the door. I've both hated on and defended the Cobalt. I put my money where my mouth is and buy new GM vehicles, not stuff from the 70's I find on Craigslist <though that could be cool too>. I've pointed out many of GM's boneheaded moves. I even started a thread the other day calling on GM to pull ahead the Delta II like they did with the GMT-900s<truck pull ahead being a kinda dumb move, but it didn't turn out too bad product wise>.

You, however, are never willing to give GM props when they do well. You've done nothing but throw poo at the Volt. You've dismissed the Malibu, CTS, and Lambdas etc etc..... you lost any air of evenhandedness towards GM a long time ago. I understand you are either employed by or professionally close to GM. One would think that you'd at least be fair to them if not actually being a cheerleader.

As far as anonymous... hardly. I've met a number of members on this site. My photo is here, my name is on here, my location is on here, my job info is on here, my love life is on here, my car is on here, my future plans are on here.......

you?

[turbo200]

then why do so many of your posts come off as defensive? why are you one of the few I expect to come to the defense of GM when thier are credible arguments being lodged against them?

to me, you are an apologist. and it's rare when I see you call out GM, and when it happens it's usually still a subjective point of view, that is blinded by your allegience to them as a company.

it's the same with calling out the government. there have always been the ones too 'patriotic' to say they're wrong.

the truth is everyone has problems. This happens to be a fan site for those that fell in love with either the car, the various companies within the company, or the history. We have to be open and receptive to understand what our failures are...

[enzl]

Not exactly.

I've had my ideas. I've posted them on this board. I've even emailed them directly to Lutz and gotten an answer. I've hated on some of GM's cars. I've shown the luv to Honda and Ford. I roll my eyes at how in-freaaakingly-credibly long it's taking to get the Camaro out the door. I've both hated on and defended the Cobalt. I put my money where my mouth is and buy new GM vehicles, not stuff from the 70's I find on Craigslist <though that could be cool too>. I've pointed out many of GM's boneheaded moves. I even started a thread the other day calling on GM to pull ahead the Delta II like they did with the GMT-900s<truck pull ahead being a kinda dumb move, but it didn't turn out too bad product wise>.

You, however, are never willing to give GM props when they do well. You've done nothing but throw poo at the Volt. You've dismissed the Malibu, CTS, and Lambdas etc etc..... you lost any air of evenhandedness towards GM a long time ago. I understand you are either employed by or professionally close to GM. One would think that you'd at least be fair to them if not actually being a cheerleader.

As far as anonymous... hardly. I've met a number of members on this site. My photo is here, my name is on here, my location is on here, my job info is on here, my love life is on here, my car is on here, my future plans are on here.......

you?

You're simply mistaken as to my position on a number of fronts...and it's so easy to check my postings--which are up for all to see and verify that you're just picking nits.

I have an opinion that you disagree with, so I'm wrong. I get it. I'm contrary to those that are Kool-Aiding the topic--nothing more or less.

Patriotism is sometimes confused with other things. I've frequently expressed hope for GM---but I won't lie to myself or you about the cold, hard facts.

[CARBIZ]

............the cold, hard facts as you perceive them.

[daves87rs]

then why do so many of your posts come off as defensive? why are you one of the few I expect to come to the defense of GM when thier are credible arguments being lodged against them?

to me, you are an apologist. and it's rare when I see you call out GM, and when it happens it's usually still a subjective point of view, that is blinded by your allegience to them as a company.

it's the same with calling out the government. there have always been the ones too 'patriotic' to say they're wrong.

the truth is everyone has problems. This happens to be a fan site for those that fell in love with either the car, the various companies within the company, or the history. We have to be open and receptive to understand what our failures are...

Turbo-who are you talking about? Everybody? Not sure there man.

The problem is that people on this site take things personally. There is nothing wrong with being passionate-but without understanding and having an open mind- it just makes you part of the problem, not the solution (for either side)

[daves87rs]

Hey, brother...You got ideas? I do...I've been giving a prescription (sic) to this company for years....the last 2+ on this board. I've been quoted in a very noted business journal saying the exact same things 3+ years ago. Is that the kind of proof you need to show I'm for real and you're just a fanboy with an internet connection?

You can hate on me, but please don't try and play it like I'm on the bandwagon now. You're just trying to be cute in order to score some points with similarly minded posters--how about an original idea or two, genius? Or sipping on a can of STFU?

They are doing it wrong, they've been doing it wrong for years and I'm going to yell it 'til I'm blue in the face---they are so wrong that I can't believe even someone like you can't see it....but, hey, it's easier to be a snarky anonymous a** who sucks up to the lowest common denominator here. I get it. You're an apologist.

That's fine, I have respect for you and your posts (and even agreed with you at times), but the call out and horn tooting are uncalled for.

I too know more and have insight (and info) others don't have-but I'm not going around bragging about it.

I've found that everyone has some good insight on different subjects, regardless of whether they are GM fanboys are not.

At times I've seen much better ideas here on this site then some of GM's ideas the last few years.....

Sometimes GM gets it, and other times, well....

Regardless what side of the fence you are on-one thing we can all agree on this that GM needs to change- Now.

[enzl]

That's fine, I have respect for you and your posts (and even agreed with you at times), but the call out and horn tooting are uncalled for.

I too know more and have insight (and info) others don't have-but I'm not going around bragging about it.

I've found that everyone has some good insight on different subjects, regardless of whether they are GM fanboys are not.

At times I've seen much better ideas here on this site then some of GM's ideas the last few years.....

Sometimes GM gets it, and other times, well....

Regardless what side of the fence you are on-one thing we can all agree on this that GM needs to change- Now.

When you have each and every post dissected because of your POV, call me. Almost every post, I've got a shadow IF my POV doesn't tow the line here. Check out where most of the people who have been here and left stand on GM issues. It isn't a coincidence. You're made to be the enemy, rather than devil's advocate.

Until then, consider my post a response to someone calling me out. It's not bragging when its merely defending where my knowledge comes from and how my opinion, however horrible to some, may have the weight of real experience. Real people. Real Lives. Real jobs.

And, you've really misread O-boi's and others' posts if you believe they're advocating the degree of change that will save GM.

[daves87rs]

When you have each and every post dissected because of your POV, call me. Almost every post, I've got a shadow IF my POV doesn't tow the line here. Check out where most of the people who have been here and left stand on GM issues. It isn't a coincidence. You're made to be the enemy, rather than devil's advocate.

Until then, consider my post a response to someone calling me out. It's not bragging when its merely defending where my knowledge comes from and how my opinion, however horrible to some, may have the weight of real experience. Real people. Real Lives. Real jobs.

And, you've really misread O-boi's and others' posts if you believe they're advocating the degree of change that will save GM.

Well, it's not so much about real life experience as it is the spreading ideas...experience can be good, but it has to be a proper teacher. It's kinda like working at a jail, and going home and beating sense into your kid so he doesn't end up there...

In case you didn't notice, it's a pro-GM site, man.

Of course everyone's idea of change is different. But I think it is the negative tone that you use.....

Everyone knows GM has problems- you just don't want to rub too much salt in the wound. There are many other sites for that..

Nobody here hates you. I noticed of few positive posts from you....so I know you do care. Show it a bit more, it might help.....

But you can't seem to get past that.

I don't know what else to tell you........

Edited May 23, 2008 by daves87rs

[enzl]

Well, it's not so much about real life experience as it is the spreading ideas...experience can be good, but it has to be a proper teacher. It's kinda like working at a jail, and going home and beating sense into your kid so he doesn't end up there...

In case you didn't notice, it's a pro-GM site, man.

Of course everyone's idea of change is different. But I think it is the negative tone that you use.....

Everyone knows GM has problems- you just don't want to rub too much salt in the wound. There are many other sites for that..

Nobody here hates you. I noticed of few positive posts from you....so I know you do care. Show it a bit more, it might help.....

But you can't seem to get past that.

I don't know what else to tell you........

Dave, like others here, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I hear what you're saying, but I just see the situation as dire---there's no 'rubbing it in'--I stand to lose alot more than most here, so perhaps it makes me angrier that the general poster. If that comes across as too harsh or aggressive, it isn't intended as a personal affront. For that, I apologize to anyone offended. It still doesn't change that facts, however.

Things are really that bad, brother. That's simply not just my opinion, but most experts in many disciplines across the board. Any assertion to the contrary is wishful thinking, not grounded in any reality.

[Drew Dowdell]

then why do so many of your posts come off as defensive?

Most of my posts have been replies to SMK <who pulls made up numbers out of his ass>, or The O.C. <with a decidedly So. Cal. view on things, though that seems to have changed lately>, or Enzl <who never has anything nice to say about GM... period>

There is this prevailing opinion around here that if GM just came out with a 3-series sized RWD BMW fighter for under $24,999, the Impala were RWD, and the Malibu had SatNav, suddenly GM would be back at 50% market share and Toyota would go slinking back off to Japan. GM still needs the Lucerne. Could it be better? Yes, in many ways, but it's nothing to apologize for because it outsells everything in it's class except the 300 and every owner I've talked to is exceedingly happy with it. Saying "If it only had a 6-speed auto it would outsell the competition!" is dumb because it already does outsell it. GM could have put SatNav in the Malibu. Was it a mistake? Absolutely, but I'm not going to trash a very good car just because it doesn't have NAV and NAV wouldn't make it outsell the CamCord anyway. There are still people who won't touch a Chevy with a 10 foot pole. CR has made sure of that. NAV isn't going to change it. The CTS is a bit of a porker and it is slightly slower than it's rivals, but that does not make it a terrible car. It turns heads faster than a new 3-series or C-class does.

I defend GM from unfair &#036;h&#33; like above. I acknowledge GM's mistakes, but some of you blow them up to be much larger than they really are or even create new ones out of thin air.

[CARBIZ]

I went away for a few days and had a chance to ponder a lot of things, including my 3+ year stint on C&G. Like, why do I keep bothering to post when some people's life mission is to bash everything GM does - even the good stuff. I drive GM cars every day. I also get to hear the criticisms/compliments first hand from Joe Public. I haunt the business pages of many publications (and sites) just to keep abreast of stuff out there (and to get differing points of view) and I travel a lot: not just in the cocoon of comfy Canada.

I never claim to be the smartest person in the room, but I'd wager I'd be in the top few percentile of any random grouping. So, I thought about Enzl's constant harping about Wagoner & Co. I never met the man, but I gotta figure he is somewhat smarter than me. After all, he has worked for a dozen different GM posts around the globe and fought his way up from the bottom of the septic tank, so to speak. Perhaps his view is myopic, I thought: after all, he has only worked for GM, even if it was in South America and other places. Then I looked up the GM Board of Directors (his bosses.) I stopped dead.

Enzl, this is directed at you, since you are always carping that Wagoner should be fired. This is not personal, but since you keep bringing this up, I ask you:

DO YOU THINK YOU ARE SMARTER THAN 3 WOMEN AND 9 MEN WHO ARE EITHER RETIRED DIRECTORS OR ACTIVE DIRECTORS OF

- Astra Zeneca PLC

- Flagler Development

- Sara Lee Corp

- University Systems of Georgia

- Eastman Kodak

- Pfizer Foundation

- Northrop Grumman Corp

- Dupont

- Earnst & Young

- Ceridian Corp

- Compaq Computer

- University of North Carolina ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

WOW. I gotta think that some of these people have a clue what they are doing. Accounting, universities, defense, real estate, chemicals - and many of these appointments are newer, some are older. That looks like a lot of talent to me.

But then, maybe I am just easily impressed.

[enzl]

I went away for a few days and had a chance to ponder a lot of things, including my 3+ year stint on C&G. Like, why do I keep bothering to post when some people's life mission is to bash everything GM does - even the good stuff. I drive GM cars every day. I also get to hear the criticisms/compliments first hand from Joe Public. I haunt the business pages of many publications (and sites) just to keep abreast of stuff out there (and to get differing points of view) and I travel a lot: not just in the cocoon of comfy Canada.

I never claim to be the smartest person in the room, but I'd wager I'd be in the top few percentile of any random grouping. So, I thought about Enzl's constant harping about Wagoner & Co. I never met the man, but I gotta figure he is somewhat smarter than me. After all, he has worked for a dozen different GM posts around the globe and fought his way up from the bottom of the septic tank, so to speak. Perhaps his view is myopic, I thought: after all, he has only worked for GM, even if it was in South America and other places. Then I looked up the GM Board of Directors (his bosses.) I stopped dead.

Enzl, this is directed at you, since you are always carping that Wagoner should be fired. This is not personal, but since you keep bringing this up, I ask you:

DO YOU THINK YOU ARE SMARTER THAN 3 WOMEN AND 9 MEN WHO ARE EITHER RETIRED DIRECTORS OR ACTIVE DIRECTORS OF

- Astra Zeneca PLC

- Flagler Development

- Sara Lee Corp

- University Systems of Georgia

- Eastman Kodak

- Pfizer Foundation

- Northrop Grumman Corp

- Dupont

- Earnst & Young

- Ceridian Corp

- Compaq Computer

- University of North Carolina ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

WOW. I gotta think that some of these people have a clue what they are doing. Accounting, universities, defense, real estate, chemicals - and many of these appointments are newer, some are older. That looks like a lot of talent to me.

But then, maybe I am just easily impressed.

These are highly qualified, highly compensated individuals with VERY serious full-time jobs.

D&O Insurance protects them personally from liability.

I may not be as smart as them, but I know I have alot more to lose than any appointee to the BofD.

And It looks like we have more auto experience than most, if not all of them, so I'm not sure that being 'smart' is the issue.

Edited May 23, 2008 by enzl

[Drew Dowdell]

There is business smart, there is car smart, and there is short term shareholder ultimate return smart.....

[enzl]

Most of my posts have been replies to SMK <who pulls made up numbers out of his ass>, or The O.C. <with a decidedly So. Cal. view on things, though that seems to have changed lately>, or Enzl <who never has anything nice to say about GM... period>

There is this prevailing opinion around here that if GM just came out with a 3-series sized RWD BMW fighter for under $24,999, the Impala were RWD, and the Malibu had SatNav, suddenly GM would be back at 50% market share and Toyota would go slinking back off to Japan. GM still needs the Lucerne. Could it be better? Yes, in many ways, but it's nothing to apologize for because it outsells everything in it's class except the 300 and every owner I've talked to is exceedingly happy with it. Saying "If it only had a 6-speed auto it would outsell the competition!" is dumb because it already does outsell it. GM could have put SatNav in the Malibu. Was it a mistake? Absolutely, but I'm not going to trash a very good car just because it doesn't have NAV and NAV wouldn't make it outsell the CamCord anyway. There are still people who won't touch a Chevy with a 10 foot pole. CR has made sure of that. NAV isn't going to change it. The CTS is a bit of a porker and it is slightly slower than it's rivals, but that does not make it a terrible car. It turns heads faster than a new 3-series or C-class does.

I defend GM from unfair &#036;h&#33; like above. I acknowledge GM's mistakes, but some of you blow them up to be much larger than they really are or even create new ones out of thin air.

Please support your accusations with facts. I've said nice things about GM--specifically the CTS, Saturns new product, the quality of the new product, the fact that the 900's are best in class...all you need to do is look it up!

Most of my negative commentary centers around materially misleading or outright false statements made by others on this board...at minimum we should educate here, not misinform--which the apologists must do to justify their positions.

I can't/won't defend anyone else, but I can assure you that 0% of what I have said here is untrue. Yes, I think management sux and yes, I think alot of the older product is mediocre at best--but if you're going to paint me as simply anti-GM, I'd like you to support that position with evidence, not whining about what I chose to believe when it doesn't correspond to your opinions.

[enzl]

There is business smart, there is car smart, and there is short term shareholder ultimate return smart.....

Correct. They possess the first quality, but show no evidence of the latter 2....especially the last, which goes to show you that things are so dysfunctional that they can't even convince their fellow gods of wall street to give GM a shot.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'd like you to support that position with evidence, not whining about what I chose to believe when it doesn't correspond to your opinions.

Nearly every post of yours regarding the Volt.

[Paolino]

There is this prevailing opinion around here that if GM just came out with a 3-series sized RWD BMW fighter for under $24,999, the Impala were RWD, and the Malibu had SatNav, suddenly GM would be back at 50% market share and Toyota would go slinking back off to Japan. GM still needs the Lucerne. Could it be better? Yes, in many ways, but it's nothing to apologize for because it outsells everything in it's class except the 300 and every owner I've talked to is exceedingly happy with it. Saying "If it only had a 6-speed auto it would outsell the competition!" is dumb because it already does outsell it. GM could have put SatNav in the Malibu. Was it a mistake? Absolutely, but I'm not going to trash a very good car just because it doesn't have NAV and NAV wouldn't make it outsell the CamCord anyway. There are still people who won't touch a Chevy with a 10 foot pole. CR has made sure of that. NAV isn't going to change it. The CTS is a bit of a porker and it is slightly slower than it's rivals, but that does not make it a terrible car. It turns heads faster than a new 3-series or C-class does.

I defend GM from unfair &#036;h&#33; like above. I acknowledge GM's mistakes, but some of you blow them up to be much larger than they really are or even create new ones out of thin air.

Quoted for truth.

Personally, for 2009, I feel the Lucerne should have gotten an interior upgrade. I completely agree with you about the Malibu--it should have offered NAV, but it's not going to be a huge deal breaker for like 90% of people shopping it. And again, I completely agree with you that there are some people who won't touch Chevy with a 10 foot pole... that's my father. He openly admits the new Malibu is extremely attractive, but since our 1982 Malibu Classic lemon (and it was in absolutely every way), he has refused to even entertain the notion of owning a Chevy, even when he was car shopping and I told him the Impala is a LaCrosse with a Bowtie (he didn't get either--the W-bodies downfalls he actually picked up on when he drove/sat in the car).

And the new CTS? I see them on the road and they are stunning works of art--so classy.

Most of the time I'll defend GM, but they're not untouchable... they definitely make silly decisions in many regards.

[CARBIZ]

These are highly qualified, highly compensated individuals with VERY serious full-time jobs.

D&O Insurance protects them personally from liability.

I may not be as smart as them, but I know I have alot more to lose than any appointee to the BofD.

And It looks like we have more auto experience than most, if not all of them, so I'm not sure that being 'smart' is the issue.

:AH-HA_wink: Now that is another issue entirely. I tend to agree with your there, sir: far too often Big Business is more responsive to impressive resumes than actual knowledge. Most of corporate America could use a kick in the pants. Unfortunately, the argument would be for preventing corporations for going public at all! Once a company's ownership is diluted in stock offerings, the Henry Ford's of the world can distance themselves through layers of bureaucracy. Since you and I both know that is never going to happen in this world, we have to make do with a flawed business model.

However, my point is, that with the divergent talent on GM's board, even though only one comes close to being auto related, they are bringing to the table, so to speak, the 'outside' knowledge that life-timer's like Wagoner need. I don't know any of these people. They could all be toothless hacks, for all I know. But at least one or two of them must know something about business and I am damned sure there have been many interesting meetings or phone calls that we are nevery privy to. Even though, as you rightly point out, any of these people can jetison themselves from the Board any time they want, eventually their resume would become pretty poisonous if they kept destroying the companies they worked for. Most of these A-types are egomaniacial and would not want to partake in the collapse of such an American icon like GM, so the fact that a few of them have stuck around for a while means there must be a game plan that they are pretty confident will work.

It is safe to say that we would have replaced the Captain of the Titanic with what we know now, but throwing him overboard as the ship neared ice berg alley would not have been prudent, to say the least!

[enzl]

Nearly every post of yours regarding the Volt.

As usual, you take an example and apply it the every situation to make a lame point.

I don't think the Volt is the panacea proclaimed by GM and by posters. I've been very clear as to why I think the incessant PR campaign could backfire, why I think the smart money should go elsewhere in product development and why I think developing another hybrid system when you've got a perfectly good one GM dropped $billions on is dumb. You, again, are entitled to disagree.

As I said before (and you dodged with your answer)--I've said many positive things and most negative posts were because another poster had misled, misinformed or completely pulled stuff out of their a$$. Most merely correct the erroneous info.

You haven't articulated a proper reply because their isn't one. If a jacka$$ on this board can fly a confederate flag without so much as a peep, then I can say whatever about GM, all I want. you simply can't have it both ways because it suits your agenda.

As before, check my posts---you'll find truth, highly defensible criticism of GM and just enough positive comments to prove you completely wrong. Of course, you won't do that, since that might require you to admit you're wrong. And to admit you're wrong about me means I might be right about alot of stuff you don't care to cop to...but that's fine. It's deeply ironic you'll bend over backwards to apologize for GM but won't take the time to look at my posts that clearly prove your thesis about me wrong.