De Lorenzo: It's all over but the hand-wringing for Pontiac

[regfootball]

i think when it came time to decide on saturn, they said, can chevy absorb what we were trying to do with saturn? and they decided that chevy was so stigmatized (right or wrong) in the minds eye of so many people (who buy toyotas and hondas) that i don't think they felt chevy could carry a big enough torch towards those types of buyers.

saturn, with the highest customer service....and the most PLIABLE brand image.....that is, it would be easier and faster to redefine Saturn than to throw everything but the kitchen sink at Chevy and still hit the stone wall with buyers whose images of CHevy are deeply rooted in things from 30 and 40 years ago.

I think GM thinks that Saturn is truly the fastest and most possible way to start changing perceptions of import bangers and get their business.

What they are finding is that brnad image actually isn't all that pliable because it turns out Saturn to this day is more of an enigma than anything.

I think the Insignia will make some people sit up and notice though, as well as the next Astra and some of the other Saturn unique vehicles. In the meantime, the marketing is vague and unfocused and impersonal, and i think they are missing a few key things in its products. But they are making headway so you gotta give them time.

I really don't think too many brands is the issue. It's not. The problem is they say they are committed to the brands but not backing that up with proper $$$$ for marketing and product development....and that's because of bad managers who are comparing apples and oranges. They might say 'x dollars' is enough because Nissan sells 'x' cars and this is how much per car to do that. Well, duh, morons, you have more brands etc you should think out of the box and determine what it will take to get the job done well, not by half assing it.

Its hard to swing cash away from paying off unions and dealers though.

The other thing folks are conveniently forgetting is that Chevy as a global brand is pretty new. In the last 5 years they really exploded Chevy on the global scale and Chevy's global brand image is kinda budget........to apply this image in NA is akin to like Kia or something.

Edited May 23, 2008 by regfootball

[pow]

The Yaris is, IMO, surprisingly cheap. It and the Tundra aren't Toyota's best efforts.

I think the problem is that the Aveo may become mid-pack, but the Kia Soul, Honda Fit & Ford Fiesta are probably the class acts, with the Nissan Cube also creating a new standard for the segment in the NA market.

If the Corsa was GM's new B, I'd be thrilled. The Daewoo products aren't even close to GM's best effort in the class.

The Yaris is cheap and cheerful, minimalist or spartan, depending on your view. I happen to like the three-door hatch - art school knobs and all - and I imagine with the right wheels and paint, it could pass as a funky little European runabout. Yes, they dumbed down the Yaris for the North American market, but the excellent first-tier, modern world car "bones" remain.

The Daewoo Gentra (Aveo), on the other hand, was developed on a tighter budget for a different audience long ago. It may be nicely finished and nicely updated over the years, but the engineering still pales in comparison to the Yaris. Just look at safety and fuel economy...

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/image.ashx?rh=719&id=2

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/image.ashx?rh=711&id=2

[The O.C.]

OC., do us all a favor: rent a damed Yaris. You can't spend 5 minutes in a show room and declare it a winner. I had no idea how bad the Yaris was until I spent the day with one. Considering how much time and money Toyota has, this thing is a joke. The '09 Aveo is going to blow this thing out of the water: the fit and finish, the new power train, the interior plastics. I usually have respect for your comments, even when we disagree, but you are dead wrong on the Yaris. The HVAC controls actually feel like a kids toy. Take a look at the seats: they literally look like the same moulded as one seats that the '91 Caravans sported. I am not comparing the Cobalt here. The Cobalt is more than 3 years old. Let's compare the Yaris to the new Aveo.

For Gawd's sake: the Yaris doesn't even have a 5 Star crash rating! On a 'all new vehicle' that is outrageous. But then neither does the Tundra. Toyota is slipping.

OK....I'll admit I have no idea how the Yaris drives.

I'm simply going off "showroom-type" appeal of the interior versus, okay, the Aveo.

I admitted I wasn't a fan of the center-mounted instruments.....but I think the hard plastics have a dull sheen that comes across decent for the price. And I don't think the controls are that bad at all. It just seems to be put together in some areas that looks better than the Aveo, which to me, still looks resolutely Korean and resolutely "Daewoo."

The Aveo interior is improved over the old one, but ironically (considering how critical I am of Cobalt) I think there are some areas where Cobalt is vastly superior to Aveo!

And I do find the 3-door Yaris cheeky.....cute even.....and the 4-door is not that offensive to me.

Guess we just agree to disagree. I wouldn't buy either one.....(Aveo or Yaris) so....whatever....

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

The Yaris is cheap and cheerful, minimalist or spartan, depending on your view. I happen to like the three-door hatch - art school knobs and all - and I imagine with the right wheels and paint, it could pass as a funky little European runabout. Yes, they dumbed down the Yaris for the North American market, but the excellent first-tier, modern world car "bones" remain.

The Daewoo Gentra (Aveo), on the other hand, was developed on a tighter budget for a different audience long ago. It may be nicely finished and nicely updated over the years, but the engineering still pales in comparison to the Yaris. Just look at safety and fuel economy...

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/image.ashx?rh=719&id=2

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/image.ashx?rh=711&id=2

Safety? Fuel economy? The Yaris is only 4 Stars, frontal. GM is claiming a 9% improvment in fuel economy on the '09 Aveo with a virtually new powertrain. I rented a Yaris. Not my choice. It was all they had left. It was, disappointing to say the least. Certainly not in the same class as the Fit or Versa.

[CARBIZ]

OK....I'll admit I have no idea how the Yaris drives.

I'm simply going off "showroom-type" appeal of the interior versus, okay, the Aveo.

I admitted I wasn't a fan of the center-mounted instruments.....but I think the hard plastics have a dull sheen that comes across decent for the price. And I don't think the controls are that bad at all. It just seems to be put together in some areas that looks better than the Aveo, which to me, still looks resolutely Korean and resolutely "Daewoo."

The Aveo interior is improved over the old one, but ironically (considering how critical I am of Cobalt) I think there are some areas where Cobalt is vastly superior to Aveo!

And I do find the 3-door Yaris cheeky.....cute even.....and the 4-door is not that offensive to me.

Guess we just agree to disagree. I wouldn't buy either one.....(Aveo or Yaris) so....whatever....

Wait two months and drive the '09 Aveo 5, then drive the Yaris. NO CONTEST. GM has pulled out all the stops with the new powertrain: a timing belt with a 100,000 mile life span? That that, Honda. Better gas mileage, more horsepower. Suspension and brake tweaks. The interior and and exterior are updated. Don't forget, the '08 Aveo is basically a '04 that was already on the books whe GM bought Daewoo. The '09 has OnStar, the 'bowtie' radio, XM, all the North American goodies - finally.

This is a GM car now, not a Daewoo.

[The O.C.]

This is a GM car now, not a Daewoo.

'Biz.....the Aveo5 is the SAME BASIC OLD AVEO 5-door with a new front-end on it.

If you don't believe me, compare them side to side. You'll see it shares every single bit of sheetmetal except for the front clip. (It is NOT as extensive of a styling upgrade as the 4-door was.)

AND since the exterior is 90% the same, I'm assuming the architecture, chassis, and suspension are original Aveo fare.

[enzl]

'Biz.....the Aveo5 is the SAME BASIC OLD AVEO 5-door with a new front-end on it.

If you don't believe me, compare them side to side. You'll see it shares every single bit of sheetmetal except for the front clip. (It is NOT as extensive of a styling upgrade as the 4-door was.)

AND since the exterior is 90% the same, I'm assuming the architecture, chassis, and suspension are original Aveo fare.

It's also been reviewed elsewhere:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstD...veo-1.2/231196/

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search...&R=EPI-5646

It's a rehash of an '02 daewoo. It's simply not a Corsa.

[Argen]

Corvette is not legitimate- even tho it did eclipse 10 out of 13 Buicks in price for '53, it was of course too vastly different in every respect to every other division's models. No competition there.

I do not even believe the other divisions threw any sort of "fit" in NOT getting their respective 2-seat concepts for production (Wildcat, Bonneville Special, F-88, LeMans); I've never read anything that attests to these being primary goals for the divisions; they were all, to the last, more than occupied with continually rising production and their own limited big dollar series (Skylark, Fiesta, Eldorado).

The point is that the corvette was considerably outside of Chevy's normal price range for the time, and thus didn't make sense price-wise in the traditional system. The others divisions weren't upset that they didn't get their motorama cars, but that the corvette was somewhat bending the carefully ochestrated ladder system.

Impala came no where near Cadillac's price range ($2693 for the V-8 vs. $4784 for a Series 62 coupe)- there was no issue there. While the Impy did overlap the lower priced series' from PMD, it didn't even overlap the next tier, the '58 Olds Dynamic 88 ($2772).

In other words, the break from the Model was not that drastic or sudden (Chevy elbowing Cadillac).

I never indicated the Impala cost as much as a Cadillac, the problem was not with the price but the image of the Impala. The style and luxury of the Impala was (and is) considered by many to rival that of the higher division, yet the Chevy coast a great deal less. The main point of the Sloan system was that people would eventually climb up the brands, but if customers felt that an Impala was as good as a Cadillac then they might not feelt the need to move on up.

I never really said that the Sloan system died a rapid death, but that the first steps towards its ultimate demise were back in the 50's and 60's. The main point that I've been trying to get at is that little changes in models or divisional goals have a habit of snowballing over time. I just hope that GM will be more careful and methodical about setting up divisional boundries and not violating them just because they think it would be a great idea to give Pontiac a minivan. =P

Also the Mazda2 would eat both the Yaris and Aveo, if they sold it here.

[balthazar]

>>"The point is that the corvette was considerably outside of Chevy's normal price range for the time..."<<

Granted... but the car as well as the price was outside the 'ladder', therefore, this example is immaterial to the ladder itself. There was no progression to or from the Corvette to anything else. In other words: I don't believe any buyers went from a $3500 '53 Corvette to a $4300 '54 Skylark, and after '54, the only other halo car is the Eldorado @ $6300 ('55). Corvette stands alone outside the Model.

>>"The style and luxury of the Impala was (and is) considered by many to rival that of the higher division,...

...if customers felt that an Impala was as good as a Cadillac then they might not feelt the need to move on up."<<

If, by "higher division" you mean Cadillac here, let me assure you there was and is no comparison in either reality or perception. There is a very real gap between the Impala and any Cadillac, and anyone who felt the two were comparable simply did not actually compare the two. Cadillacs of this period were impeccably built and outfitted, and the Division's image was second to none; no one who could afford a Cadillac would ever consider an Impala in the late '50s.

>>"The others divisions weren't upset that they didn't get their motorama cars, but that the corvette was somewhat bending the carefully ochestrated ladder system. "<<

Do you have any source for this information- it's news to me. IF you accept the logic of my first response in this post- there is no legitimacy for any other division to be 'upset'- there was no cannibalization or competition from the Corvette.

Edited May 25, 2008 by balthazar

[gm4life]

I would take an Aveo anyday over the ugly Yaris... I would only currently get sedan, not the 5 door I'd wait for the new one.

[CARBIZ]

'Biz.....the Aveo5 is the SAME BASIC OLD AVEO 5-door with a new front-end on it.

If you don't believe me, compare them side to side. You'll see it shares every single bit of sheetmetal except for the front clip. (It is NOT as extensive of a styling upgrade as the 4-door was.)

AND since the exterior is 90% the same, I'm assuming the architecture, chassis, and suspension are original Aveo fare.

Ok, I am getting tired beating this one to death. We spent the entire f'ing day with the '09 Aveo, Yaris and other vehicles about two weeks ago. The 1.6 engine is massively re-worked. The brakes are new. The alternator is new. OnStar will be standard on the LT, I am told. XM will be, too. This is the car GM did not have time (or money) to influence in '03 because the current generation was too far along. The sheet metal has only been tweaked, you are correct. The 5 door gets the same major overhaul on the interior that the sedan got in '07 (not sure why the sedan was done first; we always sold more 5 doors.)

This argument is getting tired, plus I have had 3 hours sleep because I crawled home at 4:15 a.m. and the f'ing neighbors dog woke me at 6 and again at 7:20 and 7:30. I nearly kicked their f'ing door down at 7:35. If it happens tomorrow, I am calling the cops.

Trust me, you do not want to make me put down my purse! Especially when I am still buzzing from the night before.