De Lorenzo: It's all over but the hand-wringing for Pontiac

[hyperv6]

hyperv6, SpellCheck called, they want to know why you're not using their product. Damn, that hurt just reading it. :AH-HA_wink:

I just wanted to wish a special holiday today to all of the Mothers out there, including you PCS....

Edited May 11, 2008 by hyperv6

[The O.C.]

I think the Malibu and Aura are fine.

How are Malibu and AURA fundamentally any different?

They are priced similarly.....share the same powertrains.......similar if not the same ride-and-handling........share key interior features and details like seats, door panels, center stack controls.....and even the exterior styling, while different, both echo each other with conservative, yet handsome lines.

One can't be called "more luxurious" or "upscale" than the other.....they share interior treatments such as similar leathers and cloths....woodgrain trims....metallic trims.....and one can't be called "sportier" or more "European" because mag tests show similar perfromance between the two.

Malibu is about perfect for the Chevrolet lineup. How does AURA serve the Saturn lineup any differently? How does it serve the overall GM lineup any differently?

[ehaase]

Too bad the 2008 G8 wasn't the 2004 Grand Prix - it would have been a smash hit, gas was relatively cheap then, and it would have beaten the Chrysler LX models to market. Now we need affordable, comfortable 40 to 50 mpg cars.

[The O.C.]

I'm going to politely disagree with OC about VW and its dopplegangers Seat & Skoda.

The product is not as well differentiated as it should be. That's how VW (with help from Saxony) fell into Porsche's hands. I've always believed that Skoda is what VW should be--and Seat is just loser, with no real USP amongst it's family.

Well, from my understanding, from all my studying of the European mags.....it seams that Skoda does indeed pull in a lower clientele than VW.....(which is in turn positioned a bit higher in the market over there than it is here.) Seat has the most unique styling (for right or for wrong) of the three....and has managed to carry that over to the vast majority of it's lineup. It's Cupra models are also nicely differentiated by the VW GT and GTi models with a seemingly more "raw" nature....

Just my observations.....

Perhaps 'Bloke can provide some insights since he's from over there?

[FAPTurbo]

I just wanted to wish a special holiday today to all of the Mothers out there, including you PCS....

:rotflmao:

[Oracle of Delphi]

I just wanted to wish a special holiday today to all of the Mothers out there, including you PCS....

Yep, even I can laugh at that one.

[balthazar]

>>"Just admit it: Previous indifference to product has hurt GM---and the current product reawakening may not be soon enough or profitable enough to save their asses. Period. This is why Pontiac, a division that sells 350k+ units/yr., is being discussed for euthanasia in this thread--GM simply can't afford to revamp or replace a limited line-up fast enough. 'Biz-It's going to be tough to work at a Chevy dealership when GM hits Chapter 11...so maybe you should know and understand the reality of the siutation, not the 'truth' you'd like to hear. Toyota isn't evil--the evil is the lazy, disrespectful and negligent way GM has treated customers, employees and their own shareholders -- for me, the betrayal of a loved one is much more upsetting...the world is a big place, brother--nothing impacts only North America anymore---and the jobs are coming from Toyota, Honda, et al...not GM anymore--they're paying people to leave!"<<

You know- my eyes have truely been opened here and I'm ready to admit it- GM is already a lost cause- CARBIZ; you might as well walk out at lunch tomm and not bother going back to the dealer... in fact, EVERY GM employee should just walk out- all the action is over at the toyomall - lots of jobs & tons of Nu'merican future over there (even the coffee's better!). Feel free to take whatever's not nailed down, too, it's all future auction-fodder. GM is like a burning airplane, it's still in the air but it's only going in one direction and there are no parachutes, no ocean landing, no hope, no peanuts. All GM cars are &#036;h&#33;ty rentals and the 12 cars a year GM still manages to sell retail require $10K in rebates and are only worth $500 6 months later (while in the shop all the while). Some may call this me being incessantly negative, a wet blanket, a real downer, a doom-sayer, a clammy-palmed, hand-wringing, sniveling whiner. Go ahead and twist it whatever way you wish, you blinders-wearing ostriches- you cannot prove me wrong and I realize now that toyota is the Future & is here to save the U.S. and the World (and who knows; maybe even the galaxy!) with fantastic, amazing, orgasmic-to-drive funmobiles that sparkle in the moonlight and appreciate 4 minutes off the lot and answer all the unanswered & unrealized questions of motorists everywhere... no one needs to hold onto useless emotions or preferences or particular needs- GM will be gone in 24 months courtesy of RW and the Big 1.4275396241001 will not even miss GM- the toyomill is ready and waiting to open new plants & suppliers & dealerships & Krispy Kremes & Starbucks in the old buildings... or just bulldoze them flat (with ergonomically-superior toyo 'dozers!) and plant fields of hybrid daisies in organic soil. GM is EVIL, a downright mean, nasty EVIL company that denies everyone warm slippers and every single EVIL mistake (there've been about 34 billion) has mushroom-clouded into a Disaster Comet... and now there are 800 million Disaster Comets headed straight for my house, which is why I'm in the basement behind the furnace (a japanese furnace) with a recycled tin foil hat and warm slippers. Besides, all GM cars smell like raccoon poo, I know; I've been in plenty of GM cars and everyone hates them- no one who buys one even remotely likes it, clearly they're under some sort of EVIL spell that compels them to self-torture, from the Cobalt to the Corvette- they're all EVIL, I tell you, EVIL !!! Run, RUN NOW, as fast and as far as you can from everything to do with GM- they're going down Major Big Time, Pretty Darned Quick! Even the old ones are dangerous & EVIL... smash them and punch your local !@#! dealers (before they walk out Monday)!! The only good thing here is, the constant crushing relentless negativity may perhaps convince GM insiders reading this to pull the White Flag Lever quicker, vindicating the Portrait of Doom that much faster.

Besides, my tin foil hat is getting pretty sweaty.

[The O.C.]

You know- my eyes have truely been opened here and I'm ready to admit it- GM is already a lost cause- CARBIZ; you might as well walk out at lunch tomm and not bother going back to the dealer... in fact, EVERY GM employee should just walk out- all the action is over at the toyomall - lots of jobs & tons of Nu'merican future over there (even the coffee's better!). Feel free to take whatever's not nailed down, too, it's all future auction-fodder. GM is like a burning airplane, it's still in the air but it's only going in one direction and there are no parachutes, no ocean landing, no hope, no peanuts. All GM cars are &#036;h&#33;ty rentals and the 12 cars a year GM still manages to sell retail require $10K in rebates and are only worth $500 6 months later (while in the shop all the while). Some may call this me being incessantly negative, a wet blanket, a real downer, a doom-sayer, a clammy-palmed, hand-wringing, sniveling whiner.

You know it's funny........moderate the dripping sarcasm just a tad.....and you have effectively spelled out the entire General Motors situation in perfect detail........unfortunately.....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

How are Malibu and AURA fundamentally any different?

They are priced similarly.....share the same powertrains.......similar if not the same ride-and-handling........share key interior features and details like seats, door panels, center stack controls.....and even the exterior styling, while different, both echo each other with conservative, yet handsome lines.

One can't be called "more luxurious" or "upscale" than the other.....they share interior treatments such as similar leathers and cloths....woodgrain trims....metallic trims.....and one can't be called "sportier" or more "European" because mag tests show similar perfromance between the two.

So basically, they are just like the Toyota Camry and Lexus ES, except without the price difference.

And even so, what's wrong with GM having 2 models with different flavors in a market this large? I mean, having 3 or 4 is overkill but I'm willing to bet that the Aura isn't cross shopped with the Malibu as much as some think.

Edited May 11, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[gm4life]

Pontiac needs a new G5 and G6 both should be FWD for some volume, with a RWD G8 Series and Solstice and possibly GTO that is the only way I can make sense of this mess. And yes I think they need a small CUV, I didn't want an Equinox. The new G6 can't come soon enough.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You know- my eyes have truely been opened here and I'm ready to admit it- GM is already a lost cause- CARBIZ; you might as well walk out at lunch tomm and not bother going back to the dealer... in fact, EVERY GM employee should just walk out- all the action is over at the toyomall - lots of jobs & tons of Nu'merican future over there (even the coffee's better!). Feel free to take whatever's not nailed down, too, it's all future auction-fodder. GM is like a burning airplane, it's still in the air but it's only going in one direction and there are no parachutes, no ocean landing, no hope, no peanuts. All GM cars are &#036;h&#33;ty rentals and the 12 cars a year GM still manages to sell retail require $10K in rebates and are only worth $500 6 months later (while in the shop all the while). Some may call this me being incessantly negative, a wet blanket, a real downer, a doom-sayer, a clammy-palmed, hand-wringing, sniveling whiner. Go ahead and twist it whatever way you wish, you blinders-wearing ostriches- you cannot prove me wrong and I realize now that toyota is the Future & is here to save the U.S. and the World (and who knows; maybe even the galaxy!) with fantastic, amazing, orgasmic-to-drive funmobiles that sparkle in the moonlight and appreciate 4 minutes off the lot and answer all the unanswered & unrealized questions of motorists everywhere... no one needs to hold onto useless emotions or preferences or particular needs- GM will be gone in 24 months courtesy of RW and the Big 1.4275396241001 will not even miss GM- the toyomill is ready and waiting to open new plants & suppliers & dealerships & Krispy Kremes & Starbucks in the old buildings... or just bulldoze them flat (with ergonomically-superior toyo 'dozers!) and plant fields of hybrid daisies in organic soil. GM is EVIL, a downright mean, nasty EVIL company that denies everyone warm slippers and every single EVIL mistake (there've been about 34 billion) has mushroom-clouded into a Disaster Comet... and now there are 800 million Disaster Comets headed straight for my house, which is why I'm in the basement behind the furnace (a japanese furnace) with a recycled tin foil hat and warm slippers. Besides, all GM cars smell like raccoon poo, I know; I've been in plenty of GM cars and everyone hates them- no one who buys one even remotely likes it, clearly they're under some sort of EVIL spell that compels them to self-torture, from the Cobalt to the Corvette- they're all EVIL, I tell you, EVIL !!! Run, RUN NOW, as fast and as far as you can from everything to do with GM- they're going down Major Big Time, Pretty Darned Quick! Even the old ones are dangerous & EVIL... smash them and punch your local !@#! dealers (before they walk out Monday)!! The only good thing here is, the constant crushing relentless negativity may perhaps convince GM insiders reading this to pull the White Flag Lever quicker, vindicating the Portrait of Doom that much faster.

Besides, my tin foil hat is getting pretty sweaty.

That is the hardest I've laughed in a very long time...

That's why I love Balthazar!!! Pure genius!!!

[Croc]

Pontiac needs a new G5 and G6 both should be FWD for some volume, with a RWD G8 Series and Solstice and possibly GTO that is the only way I can make sense of this mess. And yes I think they need a small CUV, I didn't want an Equinox. The new G6 can't come soon enough.

Why do you equate FWD with volume? Please explain as it does not make sense to me.

[enzl]

>>"Just admit it: Previous indifference to product has hurt GM---and the current product reawakening may not be soon enough or profitable enough to save their asses. Period. This is why Pontiac, a division that sells 350k+ units/yr., is being discussed for euthanasia in this thread--GM simply can't afford to revamp or replace a limited line-up fast enough. 'Biz-It's going to be tough to work at a Chevy dealership when GM hits Chapter 11...so maybe you should know and understand the reality of the siutation, not the 'truth' you'd like to hear. Toyota isn't evil--the evil is the lazy, disrespectful and negligent way GM has treated customers, employees and their own shareholders -- for me, the betrayal of a loved one is much more upsetting...the world is a big place, brother--nothing impacts only North America anymore---and the jobs are coming from Toyota, Honda, et al...not GM anymore--they're paying people to leave!"<<

You know- my eyes have truely been opened here and I'm ready to admit it- GM is already a lost cause- CARBIZ; you might as well walk out at lunch tomm and not bother going back to the dealer... in fact, EVERY GM employee should just walk out- all the action is over at the toyomall - lots of jobs & tons of Nu'merican future over there (even the coffee's better!). Feel free to take whatever's not nailed down, too, it's all future auction-fodder. GM is like a burning airplane, it's still in the air but it's only going in one direction and there are no parachutes, no ocean landing, no hope, no peanuts. All GM cars are &#036;h&#33;ty rentals and the 12 cars a year GM still manages to sell retail require $10K in rebates and are only worth $500 6 months later (while in the shop all the while). Some may call this me being incessantly negative, a wet blanket, a real downer, a doom-sayer, a clammy-palmed, hand-wringing, sniveling whiner. Go ahead and twist it whatever way you wish, you blinders-wearing ostriches- you cannot prove me wrong and I realize now that toyota is the Future & is here to save the U.S. and the World (and who knows; maybe even the galaxy!) with fantastic, amazing, orgasmic-to-drive funmobiles that sparkle in the moonlight and appreciate 4 minutes off the lot and answer all the unanswered & unrealized questions of motorists everywhere... no one needs to hold onto useless emotions or preferences or particular needs- GM will be gone in 24 months courtesy of RW and the Big 1.4275396241001 will not even miss GM- the toyomill is ready and waiting to open new plants & suppliers & dealerships & Krispy Kremes & Starbucks in the old buildings... or just bulldoze them flat (with ergonomically-superior toyo 'dozers!) and plant fields of hybrid daisies in organic soil. GM is EVIL, a downright mean, nasty EVIL company that denies everyone warm slippers and every single EVIL mistake (there've been about 34 billion) has mushroom-clouded into a Disaster Comet... and now there are 800 million Disaster Comets headed straight for my house, which is why I'm in the basement behind the furnace (a japanese furnace) with a recycled tin foil hat and warm slippers. Besides, all GM cars smell like raccoon poo, I know; I've been in plenty of GM cars and everyone hates them- no one who buys one even remotely likes it, clearly they're under some sort of EVIL spell that compels them to self-torture, from the Cobalt to the Corvette- they're all EVIL, I tell you, EVIL !!! Run, RUN NOW, as fast and as far as you can from everything to do with GM- they're going down Major Big Time, Pretty Darned Quick! Even the old ones are dangerous & EVIL... smash them and punch your local !@#! dealers (before they walk out Monday)!! The only good thing here is, the constant crushing relentless negativity may perhaps convince GM insiders reading this to pull the White Flag Lever quicker, vindicating the Portrait of Doom that much faster.

Besides, my tin foil hat is getting pretty sweaty.

As usual, you've completely missed the point..although I've got to admit, I'm amused.

My objection to 'Biz is the inherent inaccuracy in his position. But, the price of being right here without being on the proper 'side' is ridicule.

GM is circling the toilet, my friends, whether you see it or not. Pulling out of the nose dive is going to require alot of heavy lifting down at the tubes. I simply don't see the level of action that's required--clearly Balthazar, Biz and others see it differently.

[hyperv6]

I agree with just about all of your post.

But...."wait and see?"

Griffon said we won't see a Pontiac Alpha car until 2013 at the earliest. (And who knows if he's even remotely correct that Pontiac will get an Alpha....and if it will even reach showrooms before or after 2013.....)

It's but we all know that we needed this "new" Pontiac lineup about 2 years ago....not five more years from now. But of course, this is typical GM modus operendi.

The scary question is......and let's make this a far greater issue than Pontiac.....can any division last another 4-5 years before they have a competitive product lineup? I don't know that Buick's in any better position! Hopefully Invicta will be all it's promised.....let's just DAMN hope it's not like another rebadged Malibu/AURA. And where does GMC's future lie.....with all the trends we are seeing in trucks and SUVs?

At this point Pontiac needed the new line up 10 years ago. Also Pontiac has been pretty much been a non division since the last Firebird.

Now that Pontiac does not have to support an entire dealer network on their own and it has bought them and Buick some more time. Between the two of them there are enough vehicles to last a good while longer. Once you look at the present Buicks and Pontiac models that are available, together they have enough offerings that will let the dealers survive. As new models are added they will begin to recover step by step or model by model.

I think we are not seeing a lot going on at BPG because Lutz understands that if he just continues to throw more rebadged Chevys into the dealers it will just finish off whats left. Flawed product is worse than no product in todays market. I do not mean to say the rebadged Malibu is a flawed car, but what I mean to say it is not what Pontiac really needs. My guess is Lutz wants every model, evey move and every dollar spent to count.

Right now Pontiac just can not afford to put anymore G5 type cars out if they want to be seen as taking a step back to recovery. Right now they just do not have the new platforms available to move ahead yet. No RWD Alpha or even Delta II if they do remain with any FWD Cars in the line up. Pontiac needs to move forward on new platforms right now and there are none fitting what they need are here yet.

From now on for Pontiac and Buick to make it each new model must break new ground and be a step forward. No latteral moves here anymore. The new Invicta is a leap forward of the Lacrosse and is removed far enough from the Malibu to make its own way. The next G6 needs to make a statement when it arrives and GM know that. The G8 is a great car and is doing wonders for Pontiac's image but GM knows the money car is and will be the G6 replacment. They need to get it right!

You can drag up all the old names and argue what to call them all you like but it is the product not the name that sells cars. The average buyer wants affordable quality cars and really don't care what they are called. They relate to Accord and Camry because of their rep and right now old Pontiac names just don't invoke quality or reliability to many unwashed non GM buyers. Remember you have to sell to more than just Pontiac Fans.

GM has one ace here and that is styling as most of their new cars trump most models from Japan. Honda could not style their way out of a corner and Toyota is not any fashion house either. With styling you can get them to look and then with each and every year GM has to earn a rep for qaulity. No one sells a quality rep it has to be earned with the public's trust over time. It is the show me and prove it before I lay my money down concept.

Edited May 11, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

I have to say that this thread has evolved into a meaningful exchange of viable ideas that GM would do well to pay attention to. The agreement on some basic notions amongst most of us I find especially informative.

Well done all.

[cire]

I don't agree with some of the posts that state that Pontiac needs FWD compact and midsize cars to maintain "volume". Pontiac is not GM's volume division; that title goes to Chevrolet (and Saturn to a lesser extent). Pontiac is a "niche" division. I thought that was one of the reasons for combining Pontiac with Buick and GMC. Under this consolidation plan, each brand needs to offer focused, brand appropriate portfolios. I think Pontiac should eventually be transformed into an all RWD division to support its affordable performance CAR image and Buick should remain an all FWD division to reinforce its 2nd tier luxury status; this will give these divisions better defined brand identities in the market and within their dealership network (Although I still believe the ideal scenario would be for GM to sell Saab, combine Buick with Cadillac/Hummer and Saturn with Pontiac/GMC; this would give GM 3 dealership networks: Mainstream (Chevy), Midmarket/Captive Import (Saturn/Pontiac/GMC), and Luxury (Buick/Cadillac/Hummer). Giving Pontiac FWD compact and midsize cars will never establish a definitive brand identity for Pontiac; RWD will allow Pontiac to offer something special and unique in the market and within GM's brand hierarchy.

[Camino LS6]

I don't agree with some of the posts that state that Pontiac needs FWD compact and midsize cars to maintain "volume". Pontiac is not GM's volume division; that title goes to Chevrolet (and Saturn to a lesser extent). Pontiac is a "niche" division. I thought that was one of the reasons for combining Pontiac with Buick and GMC. Under this consolidation plan, each brand needs to offer focused, brand appropriate portfolios. I think Pontiac should eventually be transformed into an all RWD division to support its affordable performance CAR image and Buick should remain an all FWD division to reinforce its 2nd tier luxury status; this will give these divisions better defined brand identities in the market and within their dealership network (Although I still believe the ideal scenario would be for GM to sell Saab, combine Buick with Cadillac/Hummer and Saturn with Pontiac/GMC; this would give GM 3 dealership networks: Mainstream (Chevy), Midmarket/Captive Import (Saturn/Pontiac/GMC), and Luxury (Buick/Cadillac/Hummer). Giving Pontiac FWD compact and midsize cars will never establish a definitive brand identity for Pontiac; RWD will allow Pontiac to offer something special and unique in the market and within GM's brand hierarchy.

I agree almost entirely with this.

[Oracle of Delphi]

If I was going to save Pontiac, it would become the Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) of North America. It would be allowed to take any GM North American platform and Pontiacize it. But alas, at this point it's only a pipe dream.

[Camino LS6]

If I was going to save Pontiac, it would become the Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) of North America. It would be allowed to take any GM North American platform and Pontiacize it. But alas, at this point it's only a pipe dream.

Then you had better get to work on that, hadn't you?

[enzl]

I'll vote for unique and good, rather than wade into the RWD/FWD issue.

Just make 'em interesting, sporty & good looking. More hardtop 'verts, less G5's for instance.

Even if it hurts, Pontiac's shouldn't be at the local rent-a-car joint as an anonymous 4 dr. unit...

Import Daewoos to fill rental counters...it's their highest purpose in life anyway.

Edited May 12, 2008 by enzl

[Camino LS6]

I'll vote for unique and good, rather than wade into the RWD/FWD issue.

Just make 'em interesting, sporty & good looking. More hardtop 'verts, less G5's for instance.

Even if it hurts, Pontiac's shouldn't be at the local rent-a-car joint as an anonymous 4 dr. unit...

Import Daewoos to fill rental counters...it's their highest purpose in life anyway.

A fine baseline to start from, and key to any transition to better things.

I'd add exclusivity vs. other GM brands ( example Sky/Solstice as a thing not to allow).

[Blake Noble]

If I was going to save Pontiac, it would become the Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) of North America. It would be allowed to take any GM North American platform and Pontiacize it. But alas, at this point it's only a pipe dream.

That idea is very viable.

To what extent could Pontiac "Pontiac-ize" a vehicle? Or would you rather not tell?

[Oracle of Delphi]

That idea is very viable.

To what extent could Pontiac "Pontiac-ize" a vehicle? Or would you rather not tell?

Look up Holden Special Vehicles and see what they do to an ordinary Holden. It would be on par with that.

[Croc]

A fine baseline to start from, and key to any transition to better things.

I'd add exclusivity vs. other GM brands ( example Sky/Solstice as a thing not to allow).

At least when compared to similarly-priced brands. Pontiac can share all the platforms with Cadillac as it wants and there will be no internal competition.

The biggest problem with GM is their mindset that Chevrolet needs nearly every platform, that Cadillac gets "exclusive" platforms, and the other divisions get a subset of the Chevrolet platforms. It doesn't matter if it's Pontiac, Saturn, Buick, Oldsmobile, etc.--whatever you call the division, with GM it will eventually become "damaged" because of the mindset that gives us three Epsilons in the same general price range, just like the W-body before that and the X-body before that.

Until GM realizes that it should develop platforms that, to utilize economies of scale, should be shared between Cadillac and a non-Chevrolet division, or Buick and Pontiac, or Saturn and SAAB--brands that have very little overlap in price or mission--then it will continue to face the same difficulties it currently faces.

[Camino LS6]

At least when compared to similarly-priced brands. Pontiac can share all the platforms with Cadillac as it wants and there will be no internal competition.

The biggest problem with GM is their mindset that Chevrolet needs nearly every platform, that Cadillac gets "exclusive" platforms, and the other divisions get a subset of the Chevrolet platforms. It doesn't matter if it's Pontiac, Saturn, Buick, Oldsmobile, etc.--whatever you call the division, with GM it will eventually become "damaged" because of the mindset that gives us three Epsilons in the same general price range, just like the W-body before that and the X-body before that.

Until GM realizes that it should develop platforms that, to utilize economies of scale, should be shared between Cadillac and a non-Chevrolet division, or Buick and Pontiac, or Saturn and SAAB--brands that have very little overlap in price or mission--then it will continue to face the same difficulties it currently faces.

Also a valid point.

Diffferentiation is the key.

I used Solstice/Sky as an example because they are far too close, not because they are both Kappas.

[Croc]

Also a valid point.

Diffferentiation is the key.

I used Solstice/Sky as an example because they are far too close, not because they are both Kappas.

But it is the perfect example of my point: platform sharing among the "middle brands" leading to nondifferentiated product.

[Camino LS6]

But it is the perfect example of my point: platform sharing among the "middle brands" leading to nondifferentiated product.

Of course.

I was in agreement with your point on that.

[Blake Noble]

Look up Holden Special Vehicles and see what they do to an ordinary Holden. It would be on par with that.

More powerful engine, bigger brakes, better handling, even some form of styling differentiation. It does sound like an interesting route to take, especially if there is no limit as to what car could be subjected to the Pontiac treatment.

[Camino LS6]

More powerful engine, bigger brakes, better handling, even some form of styling differentiation. It does sound like an interesting route to take, especially if there is no limit as to what car could be subjected to the Pontiac treatment.

It is an interesting idea, but any car getting this treatment would have to be carefully selected and truly become a Pontiac For it to work.

[Croc]

It is an interesting idea, but any car getting this treatment would have to be carefully selected and truly become a Pontiac For it to work.

Just run a fork down the side of the donor car's clay model.

All kidding aside, the only question I have is: what about Chevy SS? That's pretty much the domestic branding equivalent to HSV.

[Camino LS6]

Just run a fork down the side of the donor car's clay model.

All kidding aside, the only question I have is: what about Chevy SS? That's pretty much the domestic branding equivalent to HSV.

Good question.

I wouldn't equate SS (in its current form) with HSV, though. If Pontiac were to go this way, the cars would have to be more significantly changed than even what HSV does.

[CARBIZ]

As usual, you've completely missed the point..although I've got to admit, I'm amused.

My objection to 'Biz is the inherent inaccuracy in his position. But, the price of being right here without being on the proper 'side' is ridicule.

GM is circling the toilet, my friends, whether you see it or not. Pulling out of the nose dive is going to require alot of heavy lifting down at the tubes. I simply don't see the level of action that's required--clearly Balthazar, Biz and others see it differently.

I never said I didn't think GM was circling the toilet: you and I only disagree as to how they got there. Nobody buys more Toyotas than the sheep in Toronto. I fight that battle every day. When you have the editor of the Wheels section in the Toronto Star telling his mother (as he did about 4 years ago) to buy a Corolla, publicly in the newspaper, even though she had a 10 year old Cavalier that had served her faithfully and she would have had to drive 30-40 miles to the nearest Toyota dealer to buy one, then you know something is amiss.

Did GM make some awful product 10-15 years ago? Yes. Did Toyota? Yes again. Who got bashed more?

My position is not inaccurate in the least. When is the last time YOU worked the floor, Enzl? Don't get all elitist and uppity, like you accuse GM management of being. Perhaps you could use a refresher course on an A-B comparison: we compare leasing a car to buying it outright, and when a Cobalt (to use one example) turns out to be cheaper over all to lease 4 years and then buy it out, than a similar Corolla, clearly the Corolla does not 'hold its value better.' GM counters that with stackable credits, lower interest rates, loyalty programs (Visa points), etc, and a generally lower sticker price than the Toyota. Yes, the 'residual value' is lower, but since when does a customer give a crap about that? At the Cobalt level, it is payment, payment, payment. Maybe the Lexus buyer doesn't mind getting gouged, but the Camry/Cobalt/Malibu/Corolla buyer does. Let's wait until Toyota has two or three flat sales quarters and see how their 'higher' residuals start tumbling. Simple supply and demand - you know that as well as I do. If there are more G5/Cobalts out there than Corollas, then naturally the Corolla will have a higher residual - less of them to feed a growing demand. Wait until that demand dries up, my friend.

I've driven the Corolla many times and would not buy one over a Cobalt. Even the new one. Just so that you don't think I have my 'blinders on,' I still say the nicest car in this group is the Mazda 3 - even over the Civic.

Although it is good to have contrarians on this Board, you specifically are so negative that it is awe inspiring. That is the real problem GM has to overcome: people like you who believe nothing GM does is ever good enough. No amount of Tacomas being scrapped, Avalon frame welds breaking, front struts popping will ever convince people like you that Toyota is no better than GM. I am not saying GM is perfect, but you counter by saying that they are pure crap.

And if GM does go down the toilet, I will get out of the business. My honor and integrity are more important to me than making a quick buck. It's too bad more people didn't feel that way, because if you are right and I am wrong, we are mortgaging our futures. I don't have any kids, how about you? Your current position may put them through school, but how will they have jobs in the future if we outsource all our factories and head offices?

Edited May 12, 2008 by CARBIZ

[enzl]

I never said I didn't think GM was circling the toilet: you and I only disagree as to how they got there. Nobody buys more Toyotas than the sheep in Toronto. I fight that battle every day. When you have the editor of the Wheels section in the Toronto Star telling his mother (as he did about 4 years ago) to buy a Corolla, publicly in the newspaper, even though she had a 10 year old Cavalier that had served her faithfully and she would have had to drive 30-40 miles to the nearest Toyota dealer to buy one, then you know something is amiss.

Did GM make some awful product 10-15 years ago? Yes. Did Toyota? Yes again. Who got bashed more?

My position is not inaccurate in the least. When is the last time YOU worked the floor, Enzl? Don't get all elitist and uppity, like you accuse GM management of being. Perhaps you could use a refresher course on an A-B comparison: we compare leasing a car to buying it outright, and when a Cobalt (to use one example) turns out to be cheaper over all to lease 4 years and then buy it out, than a similar Corolla, clearly the Corolla does not 'hold its value better.' GM counters that with stackable credits, lower interest rates, loyalty programs (Visa points), etc, and a generally lower sticker price than the Toyota. Yes, the 'residual value' is lower, but since when does a customer give a crap about that? At the Cobalt level, it is payment, payment, payment. Maybe the Lexus buyer doesn't mind getting gouged, but the Camry/Cobalt/Malibu/Corolla buyer does. Let's wait until Toyota has two or three flat sales quarters and see how their 'higher' residuals start tumbling. Simple supply and demand - you know that as well as I do. If there are more G5/Cobalts out there than Corollas, then naturally the Corolla will have a higher residual - less of them to feed a growing demand. Wait until that demand dries up, my friend.

I've driven the Corolla many times and would not buy one over a Cobalt. Even the new one. Just so that you don't think I have my 'blinders on,' I still say the nicest car in this group is the Mazda 3 - even over the Civic.

Although it is good to have contrarians on this Board, you specifically are so negative that it is awe inspiring. That is the real problem GM has to overcome: people like you who believe nothing GM does is ever good enough. No amount of Tacomas being scrapped, Avalon frame welds breaking, front struts popping will ever convince people like you that Toyota is no better than GM. I am not saying GM is perfect, but you counter by saying that they are pure crap.

And if GM does go down the toilet, I will get out of the business. My honor and integrity are more important to me than making a quick buck. It's too bad more people didn't feel that way, because if you are right and I am wrong, we are mortgaging our futures. I don't have any kids, how about you? Your current position may put them through school, but how will they have jobs in the future if we outsource all our factories and head offices?

Again, you've let your passion outweigh reality. I'll answer your current inaccuracies:

1. 10-15 yrs ago, Toyota's cars were better than GM's--by a wide margin. Please check out a Camry from 92 and tell me you'd rather have a GM-10..please.

2. I'm on the floor everyday--I deal with problem customers, intransigent banks and service issues--an average of 5x/day...more than most salesman, certainly more than the guy that owns a majority stake in my place.

3.Where do you think the $ comes from for credits, subvented leasing & 0% financing? It costs more for GM to borrow money than you & I. If the customer isn't overpaying, than GM is merely shifting the transactional costs down the road--so either customer A overpays for a mediocre product that isn't worth sh!t within 3 years or customer B returns leased vehicle and GM takes a $2-3k hit because the residual they set was so far out of whack...that's good business!

4. How many times must it be said that relying on Toyota to falter is absurd---and its more 'negative' than I could ever be--basically, you guys are admitting GM can't catch up, so they need their competitors to crumble--How negative is that?

As far as my pessimism...if you were in a theater that was on fire, wouldn't you want someone yelling 'Fire'?

I have stated before, I will give full credit when its due...and I''ve had many nice things to say about some of GM's latest efforts product-wise. But please don't insist I drink the Kool-Aid when it comes to GM's gigantic problems and this management team's inability to react or plan for these contingencies. My kids would like jobs in the future--that's why I've worked real hard to be sure they'll have something...perhaps not an auto job, but something. They are the reason I get up in the morning--and the reason I rail against what GM is doing to other people's children by f'ing up their future.

[ToniCipriani]

I ran into this:

http://news.windingroad.com/countriesmarke...ed-undisguised/

Yes I know, it's an Opel, but the rear really resembles the G6 Coupe, and somewhat of a good G6 on my mind. Here's an idea: bring the 5-door over as well, give the 4-door to Saturn as the Aura, then give this slightly different bodywork to give it a bit more muscle (a la new Mazda6), THEN badge it a Pontiac.

I'll take this over a Pontiac Corsica.

[Croc]

Good question.

I wouldn't equate SS (in its current form) with HSV, though. If Pontiac were to go this way, the cars would have to be more significantly changed than even what HSV does.

I'm just saying, though--what would GM do? Essentially the choice is between HSV/Pontiac, or continue marketing and expanding Chevy SS. SS wins out everytime.

Really, GM's internal politics cost the company more and more each year...the Japanese don't have that crap going on...

[hyperv6]

I'm just saying, though--what would GM do? Essentially the choice is between HSV/Pontiac, or continue marketing and expanding Chevy SS. SS wins out everytime.

Really, GM's internal politics cost the company more and more each year...the Japanese don't have that crap going on...

There is a lot more going on behind the doors of the Japanese companies than you hear about.

[Robert Hall]

I ran into this:

http://news.windingroad.com/countriesmarke...ed-undisguised/

Yes I know, it's an Opel, but the rear really resembles the G6 Coupe, and somewhat of a good G6 on my mind. Here's an idea: bring the 5-door over as well, give the 4-door to Saturn as the Aura, then give this slightly different bodywork to give it a bit more muscle (a la new Mazda6), THEN badge it a Pontiac.

I'll take this over a Pontiac Corsica.

Interesting idea... I'd like to see GM offer more hatchbacks in the US...way more useful (and usually better looking) than their sedan counterparts...

[The O.C.]

So basically, they are just like the Toyota Camry and Lexus ES, except without the price difference.

And even so, what's wrong with GM having 2 models with different flavors in a market this large? I mean, having 3 or 4 is overkill but I'm willing to bet that the Aura isn't cross shopped with the Malibu as much as some think.

First of all, my whole POINT is that there are not different "flavors" between the two cars.......

Secondly, the Camry and ES are far- and-away much more differentiated than Malibu and AURA. COMPLETELY different interiors.....upscale materials, switchgear, gauges, etc. in the Lexus.....and most importantly.....the differences between brand positioning. Toyota = basic. Lexus = luxury. Different buyers too. Significantly different pricing structures. Different premium options for the Lexus.

Malibu and AURA effectively compete against each other.

[The O.C.]

I have to say that this thread has evolved into a meaningful exchange of viable ideas that GM would do well to pay attention to. The agreement on some basic notions amongst most of us I find especially informative.

Well done all.

Yeah....it's funny.....most of the ideas on here about how to "fix" GM, even the ones I don't agree with, are more coherent and forward-thinking than what we've seen from the high-powered (and high-PAID) execs running this company!

[CARBIZ]

There is a lot more going on behind the doors of the Japanese companies than you hear about.

A lot of that is our fault. The media is too busy digging up dirt on Detroit because it is in our backyard and because the WallStreet fat cats are constantly whining about it, but what happens in Toyota City stays in Toyota City. The news that three Toyota executives were fired because they were fudging recall reports was barely mentioned in North America, but if that had been GM or Ford doing that, it would have been front page news on the WSJ.

[gm4life]

I say Pontiac needs a high(er) volume partical and sporty FWD G5 and G6 for sales and market share. Also that is what is selling FWD cars must outsell RWD by a wide margin just look at whats on the road. For every 300 I see at least spot 2 Camry's or Impala's. *If not more.* A few sporty FWD cars with a little extra power and good road manners would be really good for Pontiac sales and image. Seriously with the dawn of Cafe and all this stuff big-powerful RWD cars (that for the most part guzzle extra gas than they need) are begining to sound really out of step. If you want Pontiac to have any chance to survive it will be economical FWD V6 and I-4 powered cars with good ride/handling for a FWD driver think Honda Accord or Nissan Altima. Pontiac can do that with the G5 (Civic different enough from Cobalt different body/interior and more power better road manners) as for the G6 (think Altima SE/Accord EX different body/interior from Malibu and sporty looks and road manners with a little extra power) I see cars like that working for them. Then have a Solstice/Solstice Targa with GXP edition on every car they sell. *(Including Vibe)* As for the G8 have a Sedan, Coupe (GTO or Firebird), Wagon (Safari), and GXP. A Vibe should be an HHR underneath with Pontiac styling and better handling and as for the Torrent make the difference between it and the Equinox more apparent and make it look better and handle better. Also spread manual trannys across the board on more products. That would give Pontiac some FWD (which is volume anymore sorry) and RWD. I don't think GM could rationalize Pontiac staying alive on only 75K RWD cars sales a year without a good two good FWD cars below the performance stuff. That way everyone is happy performance monkies and people like me who want a sportier car than a Chevrolet and don't need huge motors or RWD (yet). Can anyone agree with me? What sells more FWD Cars or RWD Cars? What traditionally has better fuel economy? Which ones get around better in the snow-belt (what would stop me from getting a G8)? Just look at the facts and look we have a cafe coming... You see why I say a fresh new FWD G5 and G6 that are pretty sporty and have unqiue interiors and exteriors with a little extra power and a sporty handling/performance (power) make sense over the Chevrolet Cobalt *G5, Malibu *G6 and Equinox *Torrent. Pontiac has a G8 which Chevrolet is not getting nor anything like, and the Solstice that is unique, who are we kidding if were getting a full RWD Pontiac line-up and expect them to be around in another 25 years? In this day and age it isn't happening plus there are still many stand-alone Pontiac dealers and some mainstream FWD product that is slightly sporty never hurts. I recall back in 1977 the Bonneville I got was a better looking Caprice and not much else... So really not all Pontiac products have been ultra sporty and super sporty or fact doesn't mean sales. The Grand Prix of years ago was the same way. Pontiac was always a slightly more sporty GM brand but the cars we associate Pontiac with because of there greatness are cars like GTO, Firebird, T/A (not all years were so bright), Can Am, Grand Am (70's one), Grand Prix (years with 455ci) and so on... Maybe the Solstice and GTO and even GXP Bonneville and Grand Prix will be with them someday. Currently I think they need a new G6 and G5 and in year a two a new Torrent, along with a revamped Solstice I think we would all be suprised with similar platforms what these cars could do with the right looks and intieror and fuel economy. Do people follow me yet? Just remember I am not a RWD hater but fail to see how GM could justify an all RWD line-up barely selling 75K say maybe a 100K a year with out a couple FWD models G5 and G6 because RWD has its place but not in a sporty mainstream brand which is what Pontiac is and has to be to stay alive in my mind. I think Pontiac holds so much promise but they just need the R&D to do amazing things. Pontiac can be a better Nissan (in some ways) and affordable BMW in others. Sounds like a plan to me. For now I am shutting up and... :twocents:

[SAmadei]

At this point Pontiac needed the new line up 10 years ago. Also Pontiac has been pretty much been a non division since the last Firebird.

Agreed. The killing of the Firebird really drew a lot of soul out of Pontiac. The killing of the Bonne was also a blow. While I like the GTO and Solstice, they don't have the "Pontiac Attitude", that the Firebird had... and which somewhat rubbed off onto the rest of the line. So, you couldn't afford a Firebird? Well, the Sunbird/Sunfire had some family resemblance. Needed a Firebird with room for family, the Grand Prix and Bonneville had some of the feel.

Even if it was just in the mind of the people driving the non-Firebird Ponchos.

I think we are not seeing a lot going on at BPG because Lutz understands that if he just continues to throw more rebadged Chevys into the dealers it will just finish off whats left. Flawed product is worse than no product in todays market. I do not mean to say the rebadged Malibu is a flawed car, but what I mean to say it is not what Pontiac really needs. My guess is Lutz wants every model, evey move and every dollar spent to count.

My thinking is that Lutz is pushing GM to do _no_ badge engineering, at all. Badge engineering was not always bad. Look at the '64-'72 A-bodys. Or the '81-88 G-bodys. Each GM division got a complete car to match the division's personality. Even the Sunfire/Cavalier wasn't a bad badge job. In some cases, it took a trained eye to tell which cars were twins.

Companies today are doing badge jobs across companies... Toyota/Pontiac, Mercury/Nissan, Nissan/Chrysler... so it must work.

But Lutz would rather have no product that badge engineered product, it seems.

Right now Pontiac just can not afford to put anymore G5 type cars out if they want to be seen as taking a step back to recovery.

Yeah, bad badge engineering... Cobalt/G5 was bad. So were the W-bodies... So were the older J-cars.

My guides for GM badge engineering...

1. You can't have more than 3 brands share a badge job in a market. Yeah, GM did this successfully in the '60s-'80s, but those days are over.

2. All badge jobs much include more than the grill, badges and taillight change. At a minimum, the body should have unique external pressings, and the interior should have a different flavor.

3. No badge jobs for brands "just to get into a new niche". I.e., Cadillac Cimarron, Saturn Sky, Pontiac Torrent, Buick Skyhawk. It would have been fine for Saturn to get the Sky first... then Pontiac... but in the reverse order, it's too much of a "me too!" thing.

Right now they just do not have the new platforms available to move ahead yet. No RWD Alpha or even Delta II if they do remain with any FWD Cars in the line up. Pontiac needs to move forward on new platforms right now and there are none fitting what they need are here yet.

IMHO, platforms cost money, and good badge engineering saves money. IMHO, Buick should get a version of the G8 to stir up some excitement. The G6 needs a kick-ass refresh. The next Cobalt and G5 need to here now and have somewhat separate flavors. There should have been a 2010 Firebird.

[balthazar]

>>"Look at the '64-'72 A-bodys."<<

Those were NOT the definition of "badge-engineered" at all, which would be a minority of trim & interior changes with everything else being interchangable.

[Robert Hall]

>>"Look at the '64-'72 A-bodys."<<

Those were NOT the definition of "badge-engineered" at all, which would be a minority of trim & interior changes with everything else being interchangable.

Those were a great example of platform sharing done well.... some common dirty bits (frame, floorpans, firewall, inner body panels) and things like glass and roof panels on some bodystyles, but a lot of differentiation where it is visible..(not to mention brand-specific engines).

A lot of people on here some to confuse the concepts of badge engineering with shared platforms. A shared platform is like Epsilon, the B-bodies (or even the mediocre W-bodies), G-bodies, etc...multiple models that have some dirty bits in common with unique sheetmetal, interiors, etc.

Badge engineering is like the late '90s Malibu and Cutlass. The current Cobalt and G5. The Corsica and Tempest. Most anything Dodge and Plymouth in the '80s-90s. Cars that differ only in plastic trim pieces and badges.

Edited May 13, 2008 by moltar

[Sixty8panther]

>>"Look at the '64-'72 A-bodys."<<

Those were NOT the definition of "badge-engineered" at all, which would be a minority of trim & interior changes with everything else being interchangable.

Yeah, that's a pretty poorly thought-out blanket statement.

How the heck does a Pontiac-326/400/421/455/P-OHC-I6

powered car that shares nothing but the greenhouse w/ its

Chevrolet cousin that is Chevrolet SBC/BBC/C-I6 powered

all of a sudden even COMPARE to a typical modern

badge-enginered car like a Cobalt/G5, Opel/Saturn or for

that matter TSX/Euro-Accord or Lexus IS/Camry?

The frames, suspension, rear ends, majority of sheetmetal,

99% of the INTERIORS and even bumpers were different.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Sixty8panther

[cire]

I am a little confused by some of these posts about the difference between "badge engineering" and "platform sharing".

I view "badge engineering" as the practice of selling identical vehicles through different divisions with a minimum of exterior and/or interior changes to the products to differentiate them from each other. Based on this definition of "badge engineering", I would include the following current products as examples: Cobalt/G5, Equinox/Torrent, Colorado/Canyon, Silverado/Sierra, Tahoe/Yukon, Fusion/Milan, Taurus/Sable, Escape/Mariner/Tribute, Ranger/B-Series, Aspen/Durango, Caravan/Town & Country, etc.

I definitely think "badge engineering" serves to dilute and compromise the position and image of each respective brand that carries the product if the products are sold in the same market (rebadging the Holden Commodore as the Pontiac G8 and Chevy Lumina is acceptable because the three products are sold in three different global areas). The most glaring examples of this is the Cobalt/G5 and Equinox/Torrent. The brand that receives the rebadged products (it would be Pontiac in this case) suffers from a brand identity crisis and becomes irrelevant in the market.

I view "platform sharing" as the practice of using a platform to develop multiple products for different divisions that have their own unique exterior/interior designs and/or features to differentiate them from each other. Based on this definition of "platform sharing", I would include the following current products as examples: Malibu/G6/Aura, Acadia/Enclave, Impala/LaCrosse, Lucerne/DTS, Solstice/Sky, Cobalt/Astra, Avenger/Sebring, Charger/300, Camry/ES350, etc.

"Platform sharing" can be a useful and cost effective way of providing multiple divisions with necessary product if the practice is utilized correctly and the products can be marketed to different segments of the market. I am not a huge Toyota fan, but I have to admit that they do an incredible job of differentiating the ES350 from its mainstream Camry platform mate. The two sedans are properly designed and equipped to appeal to two very different segments of the midsize sedan market. I think the Solstice and Sky would serve as a questionable use of platform sharing. Both vehicles are attractive and designed to be competitive in the affordable roadster segment. The only issue I have with them is that they are both sold under midmarket GM brands. I think GM could have covered more segments of the market by giving Pontiac the Solstice to cover the affordable end of the market (which would have shared its styling with global versions sold by Opel/Vauxhall/Holden/Daewoo) and Cadillac a small retractable hardtop version to cover the luxury end of the market. Saturn could have offered the Tigra "TwinTop" roadster and Astra "TwinTop" coupe as open top products for what should remain an all FWD Eurocentric division for GM. GM has the talent and resources to develop great brand specific products by utilizing platform sharing, but they must do a better job of differentiating the products, properly marketing the products to their intended markets (example: Saturn should be emphasizing its Euro chic style, not a "Rethink American" campaign that would better serve Chevrolet), and avoid the tendency to overuse the platforms to create unnecessary, redundant products (I agree with many of you that think that GM doesn't need 4 Lambda based products; if the recent Meriva Concept was an example of upcoming slick styling for Opel MPVs, then I think Saturn might be better served by offering MPVs and discontinuing their rather bulky looking crossovers).

I do acknowledge that there is sometimes a very thin line that separates "badge engineering" from "platform sharing" (I think the Avenger/Sebring kind of straddle both terms; they have unique exterior/interior styling, but not much has been done beyond that to aim them at different segments of the market), but I do view them as separate cost effective methods of providing products to multiple divisions of an auto company.

Edited May 13, 2008 by cire

[balthazar]

cire- you're not confused IMO; you got it right as far as the examples of each you posted. Some here, who really should know better, are calling the Malibu/G6/Aura 'badge-engineered', and that's unquestionably incorrect.

I also agree with your proposal that the Sky shoud've gone to Cadillac in a sub-XLR slot.

Sibling trucks are difficult to make truely differentiated- they are bound in many areas by their functionality (read: cargo). Cars are another arena, tho.

I would not chose the word "incredible" to describe the level of difference 'twixt the camry & the es, tho- one immediately calls to mind the other visually, IMO. But another pair of siblings, -say- the Olds Intrique & GP- they shared only door handles on the exterior- nothing visible from the curb to tell they shared a platform at all- they could be from different corporations.

[Sixty8panther]

Good example...the W-body GP, Intrigue, Impala & Regal, as lame as they

were in many ways *cough*FWD*cough-cough!* they had their own 100%

distinct looks to a larger degree than most unrelated modern cars.

[The O.C.]

Those were a great example of platform sharing done well.... some common dirty bits (frame, floorpans, firewall, inner body panels) and things like glass and roof panels on some bodystyles, but a lot of differentiation where it is visible..(not to mention brand-specific engines).

A lot of people on here some to confuse the concepts of badge engineering with shared platforms. A shared platform is like Epsilon, the B-bodies (or even the mediocre W-bodies), G-bodies, etc...multiple models that have some dirty bits in common with unique sheetmetal, interiors, etc.

Badge engineering is like the late '90s Malibu and Cutlass. The current Cobalt and G5. The Corsica and Tempest. Most anything Dodge and Plymouth in the '80s-90s. Cars that differ only in plastic trim pieces and badges.

Even the Lambdas, as much as I like them, are badge jobs. So are the GMT-900s.

[The O.C.]

Yeah, that's a pretty poorly thought-out blanket statement.

How the heck does a Pontiac-326/400/421/455/P-OHC-I6

powered car that shares nothing but the greenhouse w/ its

Chevrolet cousin that is Chevrolet SBC/BBC/C-I6 powered

all of a sudden even COMPARE to a typical modern

badge-enginered car like a Cobalt/G5, Opel/Saturn or for

that matter TSX/Euro-Accord or Lexus IS/Camry?

The frames, suspension, rear ends, majority of sheetmetal,

99% of the INTERIORS and even bumpers were different.

Lexus ES/Camry is not a badge job. TSX/Euro Accord is....but not really in this market since the Euro Accord is not sold here.