De Lorenzo: It's all over but the hand-wringing for Pontiac

[wildcat]

Pontiac is the subject of Peter De Lorenzo's "rant" today. To view it, click here.

[cletus8269]

well first amendment allows people to voice their opinions no matter what or how wrong they are hehe... wonder if he'll want a-1 or 57 to go with his crow?

on a side note at the bottom of the page

http://www.unitedstatesoftoyota.com/

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM is finding out the hard way that no matter how many excellent new products they’re able to bring to market, unless they can back those products with enough marketing and advertising horsepower it ultimately doesn’t matter.

So last year the media shouting was "Good product is king" but now it's all about "Good product and marketing"

Lets just face it... Detroit is as good as dead. The media is nothing more than a cat playing with a half dead mouse and Wall Street is nothing more than a parasite feasting on a carcass.

It’s clear that the network of True Believers within GM responsible for its hotter products right now

GMNA

has succeeded in spite of the corporation

GME

And here, trying to survive and thrive in this culturally bereft environment, is Pontiac, struggling and scavenging for marketing dollars - and for relevant products - and it’s not going well. Not going well at all, as a matter of fact.

Yeah... because the Solstice, Solstice Targa, G8, G8 ST, Vibe and GXP programs aren't relevant product AT ALL. Not to mention the G6 that consitently sells 1) MORE than the newer and 'better' Aura and 2) Sells to people who are my age (READ: The future of GM) instead of jaded boomers who don't give a $h! about GM to begin with.

And the constant barrage of Pontiac media during prety much ALL sporting events isn't relevant marketing.

Flashy cars + Horsepower + Marketing Attitude x Swagger = Sizzling Sales.

Yeah, because the newest Pontiacs don't embody that spirit at all

The “maverick” Pontiac couldn’t exist in today’s General Motors, because there’s no champion for the division or anyone left there who even remotely understands what Pontiac is all about.

Yeah, because Bob Lutz, you know, the man in charge, does neither.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The one thing that Lutz has misjudged since he began his tenure at GM is that he never did "get" Pontiac. His idea that Pontiac should be the "affordable BMW" is flat-out wrong.

I disagree 100%...

Lutz, just as most enthusiasts, perfectly understands Pontiac. What he also understands, just like most enthusiats, is that Pontiac cannot exist solely on what it WAS in the past. Those buyers ar disappearing and the new buyers that aspire to be that way likely won't because they fear the yuppies stereotyping as 'redneck' or 'ignorant' or 'unsophisticated'

Pontiac performance must evolve to include both the divisions heritage as well as what DEFINES performance in todays market.

Pontiacs should be raucous, distinctly American cars with real attitude, appealing to people who enjoy marching to a different drummer and who like to go their own way.

I agree 100% but that doesn't mean it has to be limited to a specific audience. (i.e. boomers wishing to recapture their youth) If that were the case, then Pontiac would be doomed from the start and would just be prolonging the inevitable.

If I had a clean sheet of paper for Pontiac I would create a smaller, rear-wheel-drive GTO as a coupe with a hot but small (2.5-liters) all-aluminum V8 that would sticker for $19,999 and weigh no more that 2800 pounds (with minimal options). But I wouldn't do it without a commitment from GM marketing that Pontiac would go back to its roots and that it would be properly supported - both financially and with new product.

That sounds excellent... However, marketing doesn't need to worry that much (as far as major pushing) about Pontiac for 2 reasons. 1) The G8 is NOT a mass produced automobile and is currently selling to expectations on the support its getting and 2) Pontiac is not a volume division anymore. Sure, I'd LOVE to establish Pontiac with a massive, kick ass promotion in all outlets of media but it's not going to happen because 1) the public won't buy it yet because Pontiac hasn't put out enough credible product yet to erase all the 'bad memories. And 2) Technically, as long as Pontiac sells it's quota right now, it doesn't need a lot of marketing because it isn't a growth division at this time. Now, once it is re-established and has an aura worth promoting (via product) that's when the big push is needed.

And I would broom all the vehicles that didn't meet Pontiac’s "marching to the different drummer" persona too. That means no Vibe, no crossovers, no SUVs, no trucks and no bull$h!

Wrong sir...

The Vibe is a perfectly acceptable entry and would be AWESOME if GM would put a performance edge on it. Remember: Performance isn't defined as ONLY RWD V8 muscle in todays world. Performance can come in a variety of packages and Pontiac should exploit ALL of them in this changing market if it is to survive long term.

I would do the GTO, a Trans-Am, a Grand Prix and a Bonneville, four vehicles that would bristle with innovation, performance and swagger.

And the GTO and TA would cannibalize each other while the GP would be lambasted because of some automotive media bull$h! from 1973 and neither the Bonneville or GP would sell to self righteous, self conscious boomers.

And then I'd market the $h! out of the new Pontiac lineup – with emphasis on the performance-per-dollar equation - and do it with an unflinching rebel attitude to boot.

And how does that solve anything? Will GM make money off of this more specific, more expensive, more exclusive line up any more so than they do now? Where will the marketing money come from if GM is having to push the Malibu and Aura that much harder to make up for lost G6 sales?

He was right, of course, even though his idea of resuscitation lacked the strategic fundamentals that the brand so desperately needed.

According to Lutz, the brand is doing fine now, G8 is a runaway success, Vibe is kicking ass for April, G5 and G6 as well as the Pontiac division are up... GM would be remiss to not seize this opportunity (with the market shifting bak to cars) to utilize Pontiac, theri only "car only" division to make a multi-pronged attack on the imports. But I fear they are too ignorant to realize that.

***** This is the same re-hashed piece that Delorenzo put out about 2 years ago. It's pure bull$h! and to believe it is not to see the full picture. (That includes you GM). Looks like the media is gearing up for round 2 of the "Lets destroy Detroit, slowly, piece-by-piece" war. All over a market that EVERYONE, even my grandmother, knew was going to suck because of the economy and Detroits cost structure.

Give me a break.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

P.S.

Anyone still believe that the media has repented and is being honest with the Detroit marks? I told you all that the enthusiasm would be fleeting. I've seen this game before.

[enzl]

FOG-

Have you been reading the monthly sales reports?

Are you aware of the avg. sales/dealer at Pontiac?

Is the Torrent, G6, G5 or even Solstice something that you can get from another GM division?

Have you seen the Q1 financial results?

GM is operating without any room for error. GM does not have the $ to support its divisional structure, period.

The reason that this drumbeat has gone on for years is because the pundits are right. GM is sinking under the weight of its own largess, and the ostriches continue to bury their heads in the sand.

You can accuse the press of jumping on GM, but I believe its completely justified--they are running the worlds' greatest corporation into the ground. A company with such a historic headstart that their loss of leadership in the industry is nothing short of tragic.

Sometimes, you've got to admit your were wrong before things can be made right. GM's management has been using scalpels when they've needed to use axes. RW is simply the wrong man for the job. The sooner somebody owns up to the mess, the sooner the clean-up begins.

Here's the larger question: What is sitting at your local Pontiac store that couldn't either be killed or given to another division without missing a beat? The answer is nothing! The G8 could be a Chevy or Buick, the G8 ST should be a Chevy or GMC, the G6, G5, Torrent & Solstice are represented elsewhere (& better, I might add.)

Your passion is obvious, but you've got to take off the blinders, man. This is life or death.

[CARBIZ]

Perhaps there is a secret agenda that we are not privy too. For example, Saturn gets new product, but then no marketing money. Therefore, GM dodges being sued for obviously strangling the brand, while it is quietly doing just that. From GM's point of view, it would be a lot better for Saturn dealers to quietly sink, rather than having to pay them off, like the Oldsmobile fiasco.

With the P-B-GMC merger in full swing, south of the border (you guys are, once again, playing catch-up to us Canucks ), what Pontiac does or does not get in the future will become less important.

Franchise laws being what they are, GM has to play a very tight game here. As market share sinks to 20%, the business model for 8 divisions simply isn't there. Perhaps that has been the plan all along. That is assuming there is a plan at all, right Enzl?

[thegriffon]

Delorenzo isn't traditional media, however, he makes a fundamental mistake he acknowledges himself, and then ignores: You can't cut your way to success. Cutting a division, or brand, won't solve GM's marketing problems, it will only exacerbate them, resulting in even less money to go around. But this is about ideology, not facts or logic, so there is no arguing with him.

Despite the Solstice and the G8, I do believe he is right however in that GM still doesn't not have an understanding of or commitment to Pontiac. The brand is consistently undermined by discount pricing (hence the $3000 dealer market adjustments which then alienate customers—product should have simply been priced $3K higher to begin with with better dealer margins), inconsistent and underwhelming product (Vibe, G6 GXP, G5 etc.), and a lack of support for a channel that with the right product and marketing could unseat Ford as the best-selling cars in the retail market, and #3 overall behind Toyota and Chevrolet.

Unfortunately if Pontiac is to survive then the current dealers may need to get together and buy the brand from GM ASAP, appoint a product guru who gets the brand and market, and subcontract design, development and production to whoever will give them the product they need (a lineup of rwd subcompact, compact and midsize sedans, coupes roadsters—CAFE makes a traditional large car, 210–230", too expensive).

[thegriffon]

Enzl—are you aware that the G6 still consistently outsells the Malibu, or that Pontiac's cars models have consistently beaten Ford's in retail sales (in a one-on-one match up, G6 v Fusion, Grand Prix v Taurus)? Unfortunately GM has not figured out that Pontiac does better when it offers less bang for the buck than Chevy. Prices need to be around $3K higher, with product to match, and in the midsize segment, with a smaller, sportier car to boot. The division needs a premium compact, not the Vibe or G5, a premium lower midsize model priced above the larger Chevy etc.. They don't need to be rwd, but it would help. There is plenty of room for Pontiac, and the brand better matches NA requirements than a conservative smaller Buick (which is what you'll probably get instead). Does GM have the money? Maybe not, but cutting the brand won't solve that problem and will only shrink GM's share further. Cutting brands to match market share only leads to less and less share until they can't support even one brand adequately in the US market.

[thegriffon]

If new products in the pipeline can't restore GM's finances, and improve market perceptions, then one brand is what you may very well wind up with in the long term, and that a dismal third in the US market, with three cars, two crossovers and one compact pickup.

[cire]

I don't really agree with much that has been stated in the De Lorenzo article. If GM would realize that Pontiac could serve the corporation well as an affordable performance car division and give it brand appropriate products to reinforce this image, I think there is room for Pontiac to survive in a lower volume, NICHE capacity.

Here are some suggestions that would allow GM to properly position Pontiac in the corporation's brand hierarchy and make the division relevant to both the corporation and market:

1) Give it a RWD only product portfolio. Except for the G8 sedan and Solstice roadster/coupe, all of the brand's other products (Vibe, G5, G6, and Torrent) are either redundant (G5-Cobalt coupe and G6 sedan-Malibu/Aura) or would sell better if reimagined for the corporation's other divisions (G6 hardtop convertible should be discontinued in favor of a next generation Aura "TwinTop" coupe, Torrent should be discontinued in favor of a GMC Terrain crossover, and Vibe should be reassigned to Chevy or discontinued after current generation's model cycle is over).

2) Pontiac should be the only division to carry an affordable roadster (Solstice). When the model cycle of the current generation Sky/Solstice is over, the Sky should be discontinued and the next generation Solstice's design should be aligned with the other global versions of this car (Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, and Daewoo). A retractable hardtop luxury version should then be developed for Cadillac. Pontiac would cover the affordable roadster end of the market and Cadillac would cover the luxury roadster end of the market. Saturn could cover the loss of the Sky by providing "TwinTop" coupe/roadster versions of its cars (much like Opel does in Europe with the Tigra "TwinTop" roadster and Astra "TwinTop" coupe).

3) Give Pontiac a focused product portfolio of RWD coupes, convertibles, and sedans. No wagons, trucklets, crossovers, minivans, SUVs, etc. I have provided an example of a future Pontiac product lineup below.

4) Limit Alpha and SigZeta platforms to Cadillac and Pontiac in the U.S. The only exception would be the Chevrolet Camaro. This would reduce some of the redundancy in the lineups and provide further focus and definition for the brands. The development costs could be spread by providing these vehicles as rebadged products in other global markets (Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, Daewoo, Mideast Chevy, Chinese Buick, etc.)

Future Pontiac Product Lineup:

* Solstice roadster and 2-seater coupe: Next generation would be on a modified Alpha(?) platform and share its styling with global versions for Opel/Holden/Daewoo and share its platform (but not its styling) with a luxury retractable hardtop version for Cadillac.

* G4 compact coupe, convertible, and sedan: Based on Alpha platform shared with future Holden Torana and Cadillac BLS. The G4 could share styling with the Torana (except for Pontiac specific styling cues). The Cadillac BLS would have its own unique styling. I say this car would be around 180 inches long maybe?

* G6 midsize coupe, convertible, and sedan: Based on SWB SigZeta platform shared with future Holden Commodore and Cadillac CTS. The G6 will only share its platform with the Holden Commodore (unless Holden decides to downsize the next generation Commodore) and Cadillac BLS; the G6 will have shorter exterior dimensions (190-191 inches maybe?) and its own unique styling (or shared dimensions and styling with next generation Commodore if downsized).

* G8 fullsize coupe, convertible, and sedan: Based on LWB SigZeta platform shared with future Holden Caprice/Statesman and Cadillac STS. The G8 will only share its platform with the Holden Caprice/Statesman (unless Holden decides to downsize the next generation Caprice/Statesman) and Cadillac STS; the G8 will have shorter exterior dimensions and its own unique styling (or shared dimensions and styling with next generation Caprice/Statesman if downsized). The next generation G8 would be a marginally larger car (198 inches maybe?) than today's car, but be built on a longer wheelbase.

* THAT'S IT! 4 BRAND APPROPRIATE PRODUCT LINES: Solstice, G4, G6, and G8!

Come on GM! You can make this happen!

Edited May 7, 2008 by cire

[The O.C.]

Enzl—are you aware that the G6 still consistently outsells the Malibu, or that Pontiac's cars models have consistently beaten Ford's in retail sales (in a one-on-one match up, G6 v Fusion, Grand Prix v Taurus)? Unfortunately GM has not figured out that Pontiac does better when it offers less bang for the buck than Chevy. Prices need to be around $3K higher, with product to match, and in the midsize segment, with a smaller, sportier car to boot. The division needs a premium compact, not the Vibe or G5, a premium lower midsize model priced above the larger Chevy etc.. They don't need to be rwd, but it would help. There is plenty of room for Pontiac, and the brand better matches NA requirements than a conservative smaller Buick (which is what you'll probably get instead). Does GM have the money? Maybe not, but cutting the brand won't solve that problem and will only shrink GM's share further. Cutting brands to match market share only leads to less and less share until they can't support even one brand adequately in the US market.

What is the current fleet/rental percentage for G6 and Grand Prix?

I think you'll find it's astonomical.......G6 "outselling" Malibu thanks to a hefty influx of fleet/rental units certainly does not indicate true consumer appeal.

[The O.C.]

I don't really agree with much that has been stated in the De Lorenzo article. If GM would realize that Pontiac could serve the corporation well as an affordable performance car division and give it brand appropriate products to reinforce this image, I think there is room for Pontiac to survive in a lower volume, NICHE capacity.

Here are some suggestions that would allow GM to properly position Pontiac in the corporation's brand hierarchy and make the division relevant to both the corporation and market:

1) Give it a RWD only product portfolio. Except for the G8 sedan and Solstice roadster/coupe, all of the brand's other products (Vibe, G5, G6, and Torrent) are either redundant (G5-Cobalt coupe and G6 sedan-Malibu/Aura) or would sell better if reimagined for the corporation's other divisions (G6 hardtop convertible should be discontinued in favor of a next generation Aura "TwinTop" coupe, Torrent should be discontinued in favor of a GMC Terrain crossover, and Vibe should be reassigned to Chevy or discontinued after current generation's model cycle is over).

2) Pontiac should be the only division to carry an affordable roadster (Solstice). When the model cycle of the current generation Sky/Solstice is over, the Sky should be discontinued and the next generation Solstice's design should be aligned with the other global versions of this car (Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, and Daewoo). A retractable hardtop luxury version should then be developed for Cadillac. Pontiac would cover the affordable roadster end of the market and Cadillac would cover the luxury roadster end of the market. Saturn could cover the loss of the Sky by providing "TwinTop" coupe/roadster versions of its cars (much like Opel does in Europe with the Tigra "TwinTop" roadster and Astra "TwinTop" coupe).

3) Give Pontiac a focused product portfolio of RWD coupes, convertibles, and sedans. No wagons, trucklets, crossovers, minivans, SUVs, etc. I have provided an example of a future Pontiac product lineup below.

4) Limit Alpha and SigZeta platforms to Cadillac and Pontiac in the U.S. The only exception would be the Chevrolet Camaro. This would reduce some of the redundancy in the lineups and provide further focus and definition for the brands. The development costs could be spread by providing these vehicles as rebadged products in other global markets (Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, Daewoo, Mideast Chevy, Chinese Buick, etc.)

Future Pontiac Product Lineup:

* Solstice roadster and 2-seater coupe: Next generation would be on a modified Alpha(?) platform and share its styling with global versions for Opel/Holden/Daewoo and share its platform (but not its styling) with a luxury retractable hardtop version for Cadillac.

* G4 compact coupe, convertible, and sedan: Based on Alpha platform shared with future Holden Torana and Cadillac BLS. The G4 could share styling with the Torana (except for Pontiac specific styling cues). The Cadillac BLS would have its own unique styling. I say this car would be around 180 inches long maybe?

* G6 midsize coupe, convertible, and sedan: Based on SWB SigZeta platform shared with future Holden Commodore and Cadillac CTS. The G6 will only share its platform with the Holden Commodore (unless Holden decides to downsize the next generation Commodore) and Cadillac BLS; the G6 will have shorter exterior dimensions (190-191 inches maybe?) and its own unique styling (or shared dimensions and styling with next generation Commodore if downsized).

* G8 fullsize coupe, convertible, and sedan: Based on LWB SigZeta platform shared with future Holden Caprice/Statesman and Cadillac STS. The G8 will only share its platform with the Holden Caprice/Statesman (unless Holden decides to downsize the next generation Caprice/Statesman) and Cadillac STS; the G8 will have shorter exterior dimensions and its own unique styling (or shared dimensions and styling with next generation Caprice/Statesman if downsized). The next generation G8 would be a marginally larger car (198 inches maybe?) than today's car, but be built on a longer wheelbase.

* THAT'S IT! 4 BRAND APPROPRIATE PRODUCT LINES: Solstice, G4, G6, and G8!

Come on GM! You can make this happen!

I value the time and effort you put into your above post.

But unfortunately NONE of that matters one iota if GM doesn't have, or won't spend, the significant dollars required to support an appropriate marketing and advertising effort. Remember, even with a utopian product lineup, GM still has to repair the HUGE rift in consumer perception of the Pontiac brand....which is not all that positive at this juncture.

That's the whole gist behind DeLorenzo's rant.....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

FOG-

Have you been reading the monthly sales reports?

Are you aware of the avg. sales/dealer at Pontiac?

Is the Torrent, G6, G5 or even Solstice something that you can get from another GM division?

Have you seen the Q1 financial results?

So it's a bad year...

Can you get virtually everything every other GM division offers at other GM divisions? Hell, if anything, Pontiac has the most unique line up at the corporation now with the introduction of the G8, G8 ST and Solstice Targa.

GM is operating without any room for error. GM does not have the $ to support its divisional structure, period.

Weather the storm... DO NOT give up ground for the sake of "what might be" That's all I'm saying.

You can accuse the press of jumping on GM, but I believe its completely justified--they are running the worlds' greatest corporation into the ground. A company with such a historic headstart that their loss of leadership in the industry is nothing short of tragic.

The media and the consumer ran "the worlds greatest corporation" into the ground. Anti-american sentiment and the need to feel sophisticated through 'being elitest' and 'being different' ran GM into the ground. I do not deny that GM management was nothing short of a disaster for a very long time but this culture is largely to blame for GM's demise. It's the same culture that outsourced the middle class, the same culture that buys stuff at Wal-Mart, the same culture that criticizes your kid at school for not being able to afford a $100 pair of jeans and the same culture that says you're not good enough unless you get into the top school and land the top job. Just my :twocents:

Sometimes, you've got to admit your were wrong before things can be made right. GM's management has been using scalpels when they've needed to use axes. RW is simply the wrong man for the job. The sooner somebody owns up to the mess, the sooner the clean-up begins.

the more you cut, the less of the entity is left to begin with. The more blows the entity receives, the less strength it has to fight back. Go ahead GM, cut all of your divisions except the "dynamic three". Then we can all laugh as no matter how hard you try to become relevant again, you remain a small scale automaker that struggles to get off the mat and compete until you eventually die.

In this market, there is no clean up unless it's the clean up like Mitsubishi and Isuzu have been experiencing. It's too competitive to try birth an entirely new corporation and expect to gain share. GM still has a lot of legacy cost and in order to fund that, they'll need to gain share regardless of the cost savings if they dynamite divisions. That's not going to happen.

Your passion is obvious, but you've got to take off the blinders, man. This is life or death.

I don't look at it that way. To me it's either death or suicide. And I hate to be that dramatic and negative, but it's true. GM is facing falling sales and regulations as well as economical factors that they cannot control. Eventually, the corporation will probably die anyway. Why not go out firing on all cylinders and hoping for the best instead of quietly resigning and allowing the market to swallow you whole?

Edited May 7, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Enzl—are you aware that the G6 still consistently outsells the Malibu, or that Pontiac's cars models have consistently beaten Ford's in retail sales (in a one-on-one match up, G6 v Fusion, Grand Prix v Taurus)? Unfortunately GM has not figured out that Pontiac does better when it offers less bang for the buck than Chevy. Prices need to be around $3K higher, with product to match, and in the midsize segment, with a smaller, sportier car to boot. The division needs a premium compact, not the Vibe or G5, a premium lower midsize model priced above the larger Chevy etc.. They don't need to be rwd, but it would help. There is plenty of room for Pontiac, and the brand better matches NA requirements than a conservative smaller Buick (which is what you'll probably get instead). Does GM have the money? Maybe not, but cutting the brand won't solve that problem and will only shrink GM's share further. Cutting brands to match market share only leads to less and less share until they can't support even one brand adequately in the US market.

Thank god! Another voice of reason!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I value the time and effort you put into your above post.

But unfortunately NONE of that matters one iota if GM doesn't have, or won't spend, the significant dollars required to support an appropriate marketing and advertising effort. Remember, even with a utopian product lineup, GM still has to repair the HUGE rift in consumer perception of the Pontiac brand....which is not all that positive at this juncture.

That's the whole gist behind DeLorenzo's rant.....

Yes, but.

There are ways around this in packaging the GMC/B/P channel together. They can be promoted as one brand.

Buick is/was in no better shape, especially before the Enclave debuted.

And Saturn sure as hell doesn't have the perception needed to sell what it is currently offering.

[enzl]

Enzl—are you aware that the G6 still consistently outsells the Malibu, or that Pontiac's cars models have consistently beaten Ford's in retail sales (in a one-on-one match up, G6 v Fusion, Grand Prix v Taurus)? Unfortunately GM has not figured out that Pontiac does better when it offers less bang for the buck than Chevy. Prices need to be around $3K higher, with product to match, and in the midsize segment, with a smaller, sportier car to boot. The division needs a premium compact, not the Vibe or G5, a premium lower midsize model priced above the larger Chevy etc.. They don't need to be rwd, but it would help. There is plenty of room for Pontiac, and the brand better matches NA requirements than a conservative smaller Buick (which is what you'll probably get instead). Does GM have the money? Maybe not, but cutting the brand won't solve that problem and will only shrink GM's share further. Cutting brands to match market share only leads to less and less share until they can't support even one brand adequately in the US market.

G6 is a rental queen--and the only FWD sedan available now at Pontiac dealers...the Bonnie and GP are long gone--so, yes I'm aware of the 'select' figures you're quoting and, no, it doesn't matter as the G6 pales in comparison to Aura or 'bu.

The rest of your proposal assumes GM can afford to retool Pontiac, which they can't. Look at their product cadence...they're on 5 yr. + cycles with the nameplates they're trying to support...and most of them suck, so what's the point?

If you'd like to see Pontiac or Saab or Hummer drag GM into Ch.11, be my guest.

[z28luvr01]

Pontiac's biggest problem is that GM operates as if it honestly doesn't know what to do with it. It seems some in GM want the brand to thrive once again while others see it as a dying branch that needs to be pruned from the tree. You can see that in the dichotomy in the current lineup, as illustrated by thegriffon.

G8, Solstice = yay

G5, G6, Vibe, Torrent = nay

Heck, you could even see it in the naming...um.."scheme"

It really is in GM's best interests to revive Pontiac - as I've said a number of times, Oldsmobile's demise proves to us that a dead brand's former customers won't just flock to other GM brands; they'll more likely leave the company for good. Sadly, the current perception of the company is that people are all but looking for a reason to justify jumping to the Japanese, and axing another brand would accomplish that and then some.

Now before the whole GME vs GMNA vs GMH argument rears its ugly head in this thread, as it does in just about every other thread about Pontiac, I'm going to say this. GM's greatest strength has been its ability to cater to ALL of the needs of each of its local markets, and right now the company's survival depends on it. Shunning that in favor of a one-size-fits-all brand structure across the globe is a recipe for failure. Each of the internal factions need to get their heads out of their collective asses and proceed as follows:

1. Figure out what vehicles best encompass the needs of the market in question, and how to sprinkle them throughout the market's EXISTING brand structure

2. Figure out how to build those vehicles efficiently and profitably using resources available globally

If GME, GMNA, and GMH can't put aside their personal agendas and do what's best for GM global, they're doomed, and that's that.

Rant over.

[enzl]

So it's a bad year...

Can you get virtually everything every other GM division offers at other GM divisions? Hell, if anything, Pontiac has the most unique line up at the corporation now with the introduction of the G8, G8 ST and Solstice Targa.

Weather the storm... DO NOT give up ground for the sake of "what might be" That's all I'm saying.

The media and the consumer ran "the worlds greatest corporation" into the ground. Anti-american sentiment and the need to feel sophisticated through 'being elitest' and 'being different' ran GM into the ground. I do not deny that GM management was nothing short of a disaster for a very long time but this culture is largely to blame for GM's demise. It's the same culture that outsourced the middle class, the same culture that buys stuff at Wal-Mart, the same culture that criticizes your kid at school for not being able to afford a $100 pair of jeans and the same culture that says you're not good enough unless you get into the top school and land the top job. Just my :twocents:

the more you cut, the less of the entity is left to begin with. The more blows the entity receives, the less strength it has to fight back. Go ahead GM, cut all of your divisions except the "dynamic three". Then we can all laugh as no matter how hard you try to become relevant again, you remain a small scale automaker that struggles to get off the mat and compete until you eventually die.

In this market, there is no clean up unless it's the clean up like Mitsubishi and Isuzu have been experiencing. It's too competitive to try birth an entirely new corporation and expect to gain share. GM still has a lot of legacy cost and in order to fund that, they'll need to gain share regardless of the cost savings if they dynamite divisions. That's not going to happen.

I don't look at it that way. To me it's either death or suicide. And I hate to be that dramatic and negative, but it's true. GM is facing falling sales and regulations as well as economical factors that they cannot control. Eventually, the corporation will probably die anyway. Why not go out firing on all cylinders and hoping for the best instead of quietly resigning and allowing the market to swallow you whole?

Your entire supposition is dependent upon GM's current fiscal health being better than the press is stating (it's probably worse, as the $30Billion writedown last Q was an admission of exactly that.)

So, there's no money to retrench or retool or reequip the troops, so to speak. What you're proposing is parallel to sending US troops into battle with broomsticks because the Gov't can't afford to buy enough supplies--why would a good 'General' do that?

Second, and almost as important. There's noone to blame but GM for the mess. Blaming others is a uniquely American fetish--The press and Wall Street would gladly pick on whomever was in this predicament. Unfortunately, GM half-assed its way through decades of product---and, now that the product is demonstrably better, the competition has sunk their claws into ex-GM customers and isn't letting go.

Explain to me why I (or anyone) should gamble on GM when I've got a sure thing in my driveway? Especially with the 2nd largest investment I'm going to make? Or put my child or wife in? It's just simply against human nature itself to ask people to do so.

You continually make excuses, I'd like things to be made better. That's the essential difference in our positions. I suspect much of it has to do simply with life experience, but I'm not sure you realize how real-world adults make decisions--to believe that something in the newspaper or TV makes people zombies that run down to the local Toyota dealer is laughable--more likely, humans are risk-averse--and it simply makes little sense to purchase most of what GM offers.

Edited May 7, 2008 by enzl

[thegriffon]

And the Fusion and Taurus aren't being flogged like mad to Hertz and co? Of course they are. The comparison remains valid.

Pontiac is still a major division, despite losing model after model. At the moment it is being starved of investment while they try and build profitability. They can't afford to cut it, and they can't afford to let it wither, hence the rebadged Cobalt and Chevy to replace the G6. GM needs the revenue Pontiac gives to fund the other divisions. You can't keep cutting divisions until your marketing costs match your revenue, because your revenue will just keep falling, and falling, and falling, until you can't even support one division. It's no solution. GM needs to build product margin so that that they can market each division adequately, but they can't do that while they persist in a moronic attempt to market everything one segment below where it should be, thus avoiding consideration by people looking for a product in that segment (because GM makes it invisible) and the one they are targeting (because it's too big). The higher pricing of the new Malibu and the cutting of the "Value" G6 is a step in the right direction, but they have a long way to go (once again the G8 was priced too low, by $3-5K), and it's unclear whether the market will return in time no matter how good the product and the reviews. Too many people still refuse to consider GM.

Enzl, how is a stripped, rebadged Cadillac any less affordable to GM than a loaded, rebadged Chevy?

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

Your entire supposition is dependent upon GM's current fiscal health being better than the press is stating (it's probably worse, as the $30Billion writedown last Q was an admission of exactly that.)

So, there's no money to retrench or retool or reequip the troops, so to speak. What you're proposing is parallel to sending US troops into battle with broomsticks because the Gov't can't afford to buy enough supplies--why would a good 'General' do that?

Second, and almost as important. There's noone to blame but GM for the mess. Blaming others is a uniquely American fetish--The press and Wall Street would gladly pick on whomever was in this predicament. Unfortunately, GM half-assed its way through decades of product---and, now that the product is demonstrably better, the competition has sunk their claws into ex-GM customers and isn't letting go.

Explain to me why I (or anyone) should gamble on GM when I've got a sure thing in my driveway? Especially with the 2nd largest investment I'm going to make? Or put my child or wife in? It's just simply against human nature itself to ask people to do so.

You continually make excuses, I'd like things to be made better. That's the essential difference in our positions. I suspect much of it has to do simply with life experience, but I'm not sure you realize how real-world adults make decisions--to believe that something in the newspaper or TV makes people zombies that run down to the local Toyota dealer is laughable--more likely, humans are risk-averse--and it simply makes little sense to purchase most of what GM offers.

Enzl - pick up a copy of "Predictabably Irrational: The Hidden Forces that Shape our Decisions." Fascinating read. Dan Ariely is a behavioral economist at MIT. This is his new book. He has spent years studying the behavior of consumers. In a nutshell: if people believe something, then they will not accept new data to the contrary. An odd twist on the "if the facts do not conform to the theory, then the facts must be altered" axiom.

One of the examples he cites is the recent New York Times expose on a Vancouver-based company, Lululemon's assertions that its seaweed fiber clothing had all kinds of therapeutic properties, which turned out to be bogus. After a short WallStreet panic, Lululemon's stock went up 30% over where it was before the expose.

Ariely talks about energy drinks, and his study shows that the more expensive they are, the more people expressed increased awareness, energy, etc., even though the products themselves were not better. This is how Toyota has managed to get away with selling a Camry for $9,000 more in a Lexus - people are convinced it is better, even though it is essentially the same car.

In an age where the differences, real differences between brands is negligible or non-existant, it is only the marketing and hype that can destinguish them. This is a fact that Toyota has been relentless since the beginning: sing one song and stick to it.

[enzl]

Enzl - pick up a copy of "Predictabably Irrational: The Hidden Forces that Shape our Decisions." Fascinating read. Dan Ariely is a behavioral economist at MIT. This is his new book. He has spent years studying the behavior of consumers. In a nutshell: if people believe something, then they will not accept new data to the contrary. An odd twist on the "if the facts do not conform to the theory, then the facts must be altered" axiom.

One of the examples he cites is the recent New York Times expose on a Vancouver-based company, Lululemon's assertions that its seaweed fiber clothing had all kinds of therapeutic properties, which turned out to be bogus. After a short WallStreet panic, Lululemon's stock went up 30% over where it was before the expose.

Ariely talks about energy drinks, and his study shows that the more expensive they are, the more people expressed increased awareness, energy, etc., even though the products themselves were not better. This is how Toyota has managed to get away with selling a Camry for $9,000 more in a Lexus - people are convinced it is better, even though it is essentially the same car.

In an age where the differences, real differences between brands is negligible or non-existant, it is only the marketing and hype that can destinguish them. This is a fact that Toyota has been relentless since the beginning: sing one song and stick to it.

2 errors in your assessment:

1. It is perfectly rational to purchase a product that is as good or better than the competition---seaweed clothing & energy drinks don't equal a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry-established, middle of the road products---so your point is valid, but not applicable to this situation. There's no 'contrary' facts...The Malibu may be as good as the Camry, but there's no 'facts' that point to the Camry being a bad purchase decision.

2. Toyota (your example, not mine) is only doing what GM did for years with Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Olds/Caddy...so, if it worked for GM in the past, so why shouldn't Toyota follow that example? Furthermore, your position supports the idea that Toyota is beating GM at marketing, as well as product relevance---so, are you defending GM or admitting that they've dropped the ball completely?

With all due respect, GM has dug a hole of its own making. Now, common sense would dictate that they stop digging. Obviously, they haven't and it may doom them to a date with a bankruptcy judge.

Any MIT eggheads writing a book that GM can use to get out of their hole? I'll be happy to order it on Amazon and send it to RW, ASAP.

[The O.C.]

There are ways around this in packaging the GMC/B/P channel together. They can be promoted as one brand.

That's ridiculous FOG.....they are three separate brands that simply share a distribution channel.

Three brands are still going to need three different types of marketing and advertising support in order to build upon or repair brand image and perception. How in the hell do you think GM can promote BPG as "one brand" when their products and target markets are so diverse???

[The O.C.]

And the Fusion and Taurus aren't being flogged like mad to Hertz and co? Of course they are. The comparison remains valid.

Pontiac is still a major division, despite losing model after model. At the moment it is being starved of investment while they try and build profitability. They can't afford to cut it, and they can't afford to let it wither, hence the rebadged Cobalt and Chevy to replace the G6. GM needs the revenue Pontiac gives to fund the other divisions. You can't keep cutting divisions until your marketing costs match your revenue, because your revenue will just keep falling, and falling, and falling, until you can't even support one division. It's no solution. GM needs to build product margin so that that they can market each division adequately, but they can't do that while they persist in a moronic attempt to market everything one segment below where it should be, thus avoiding consideration by people looking for a product in that segment (because GM makes it invisible) and the one they are targeting (because it's too big). The higher pricing of the new Malibu and the cutting of the "Value" G6 is a step in the right direction, but they have a long way to go (once again the G8 was priced too low, by $3-5K), and it's unclear whether the market will return in time no matter how good the product and the reviews. Too many people still refuse to consider GM.

Enzl, how is a stripped, rebadged Cadillac any less affordable to GM than a loaded, rebadged Chevy?

Griff....there IS NO valid comparison, as you say, unless you can provide actual rental/fleet percentages for those cars. I don't have them or I would. Last time I checked, a year or so ago, Grand Prix, for example, was running over 75% rental/fleet....even the 500 at that time wasn't anywhere near that.

Nothing in the Pontiac lineup even dictates a hint towards "performance" or "excitement" except G8 and maybe Solstice Targa (because there's no comparable Saturn.) Everything else either can be had at a similar division, or offers just as much performance as the respective Pontiac (re...Malibu LTZ V6 and G6 GXP.....and Solstice versus SKY.)

[Croc]

Griff....there IS NO valid comparison, as you say, unless you can provide actual rental/fleet percentages for those cars. I don't have them or I would. Last time I checked, a year or so ago, Grand Prix, for example, was running over 75% rental/fleet....even the 500 at that time wasn't anywhere near that.

Nothing in the Pontiac lineup even dictates a hint towards "performance" or "excitement" except G8 and maybe Solstice Targa (because there's no comparable Saturn.) Everything else either can be had at a similar division, or offers just as much performance as the respective Pontiac (re...Malibu LTZ V6 and G6 GXP.....and Solstice versus SKY.)

You're missing the point of what Griff is saying. Frankly, I agree with him: GM can cut divisions all it wants, but until it starts pricing itself as more than a bargain-basement manufacturer, it will lack the profit margins across the board to support all of its divisions. In other words, killing Pontiac does not fix what's wrong with GM, and soon another division will be on the chopping block too. For crying out loud, it's been just 4 years since Oldsmobile went away! Clearly that went well...

And what about those damn Canadians? They certainly seem to have an arrowhead fetish.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Croc

[The O.C.]

You're missing the point of what Griff is saying. Frankly, I agree with him: GM can cut divisions all it wants, but until it starts pricing itself as more than a bargain-basement manufacturer, it will lack the profit margins across the board to support all of its divisions. In other words, killing Pontiac does not fix what's wrong with GM, and soon another division will be on the chopping block too. For crying out loud, it's been just 4 years since Oldsmobile went away! Clearly that went well...

It's a "Catch-22" that perhaps can never be beaten.....and that's the scary part.

Many say GM can't afford/justify to cut any more divisions/brands..........and many believe they simply can't afford to properly support the divisions/brands they have in order to help them be successful.......

So.....with both ends of the tunnel blocked-off, where, oh where do you go?

[turbo200]

1. Figure out what vehicles best encompass the needs of the market in question, and how to sprinkle them throughout the market's EXISTING brand structure

2. Figure out how to build those vehicles efficiently and profitably using resources available globally

what's ironic is that the right strategy for Pontiac is one that fits in with consumer tastes all over the world. an entry level sedan priced 23k-33k, think original IS200 and IS300/Alteeza in size and equipment, performance.....this is a perfect fit at Pontiac as well as a good complement to a more luxurious more extreme better performing car at Cadillac. back to the Pontiac version, this is a car the world over would be able to appreciate. in essence an updated version of the last gen 3-series. which sold over 100k units per year in America, as a BMW, with a base starting point at around $29k. the car sold across the world something like 600k units. across the world. amazing. it would actually appeal to european and asian and latin and whereever else consumer tastes.

it makes a lot of sense. from there you have another utalitarian basic family sedan, the executive G8 sedan. another basic sedan that would easily sell well if offered in europe. it would need the right style and an upgraded interior as European tastes are highly refined.

a simple basic strategy that would sell the world over is what Pontiac really is. that is if they put the effort to actually adhering to the roots of making this an everday man's performance car.

[turbo200]

by the way, this thread may be too far ahead in speculation [well might be is an understatement]. there certainly is good reason for this kind of speculation, but let's take a look at Pontiac's newest car and the trends there.

G8 starts at 27k, but is a $30k car for the V8 version. no idea what the balance or mix is, i can give anecdotal evidence but that never leads us anywhere anyways. it's worth mentioning that historically GM likes to trend toward more expensive models when we're talking about a highly anticipated 'sport model' like the G8 GT is.

this car is also artificially limited. wonder what the supply is in terms of days' suppplies of units. the car just sold over 2000 units in only its second month of sales with very very limited TV advertising, limited supplies, and an expensive price.

what's GM's official volume stance? last we heard perhaps unofficial talk of 30-40k units, yeah i think that was from motor trend. well i think over 2k units in only second month, facing substantial economic troubles and hugely increasing gas prices is significant, very much so, and the fact that i don't think any G8 will be going fleet, since it appears G8 is already a money-losing proposition for GM because of weak dollar.

the G8 is already selling at almost half the volume of CTS, which has exclusive plant devoted to it [aside from slim srx and sts volume], which is a hot car received huge amount of attention and massive marketing dollars, and was a second gen update to wildly successful first gen Cadillac.

And Pontiac is supposedly dead!

EDIT: to further bolster my point, Chevy, the 'volume division', sold 18k cobalts and 26 impalas in the same month. we all know the fleet percentages, between 50-55% cobalt and impala at 60%, though potentially higher this year. that means only 9k cobalts and 10k impalas were sold to american public at real prices, including all those incentives and rebates we all love to bitch about. cobalt and impala which are supposed to be the volume division and have years of history and marketing force behind them.

Edited May 7, 2008 by turbo200

[regfootball]

ok, i basically skipped all of the above posts.

here is thing......so GM continually gets bombed for not enough marketing efforts....so then why don't they just come up with more dollars and get it done? we can afford union buyouts still but not proper product support?

there is NO repeat NO benefit to cut brands, primarily because of franchise laws but also because look what happened to olds, the market share went out the door.

the problem is simple, it's still the product and its not coming out fast enough. If GM has so many brands and models they simply need to spend more dollars on replenishing products faster and better. Having that many brands may be a liability in that way, but to do it right then you must pay the price. The result will be better sales.

G6. It sells well, but if it were done PROPERLY and not already like 4 years old, it would do so much better. This goes for all of GM's lineup.

Given the chance, the stylists and engineers and manufactuing will pull it off. It's the beancoutners and management dropping the ball. Commit to the brands, focus each one, build great cars....and KEEP THEM FRESH.

I give management an F for product replacement. They are doing what Ford did, starve new products.

[Croc]

So.....with both ends of the tunnel blocked-off, where, oh where do you go?

Increase the profit margins. If GM is having cash flow problems, that means not enough profit. Raise the stickers to what they should be (about $3-5k more for every Pontiac model) and there you go. GM is always trying to be a "value leader" and the only way to be a profitable value leader is through volume. GM, and the NA market as a whole, will not get back to that volume business of yesteryear soon, if ever. Too much competition and choice exists for one or two models to sell 1,000,000 vehicles per year. If GM started making their vehicles with a slightly more premium mindset and increased margins accordingly, not only would they have a more aspirational (read: desired) product, but the profits would be up overall.

Truthfully, I'm at a loss of what exactly is "wrong" with Pontiac to the point it should be shut down. Pontiac has some great designs, and the only aspects of the vehicles that are lacking are the interiors. If the G6 received an interior update that is very similar to that of the new Malibu, I think sales would take off. You have a complete lineup, stylish design, and a gimmick: hard top convertible. The G6 should be selling a lot more than it is, and the only real detriment to its execution is the same interior (essentially) that plagued the 2003 Malibu. Look what happened to Malibu sales/demand for 2008. That wasn't due to the exterior update, as both were pretty inoffensive. The G6 at least already has a great exterior that's aged well. Give it a new interior and watch sales take off. Same thing happened to the SRX in 2007.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

But here's the thing: each new iteration looks like something was held back. Look at the '04 Malibu versus the G6. The Malibu is what the G6 should have been. Then the Aura, which was immediately superseded by the new Malibu. Wanna bet the next G6 is better than the existing Malibu? This only pits Pontiac dealers against Chev dealers, etc.

O.C. has hit the nail on the head. The Japanese had the benefits of building their business slowly, over decades with modern business plans, modern factories and a modern labor force. Factor in a steadily growing business cycle and how could they not succeed? The Japanese government laid out the groundwork for them with the electronics business.

Now look at GM and Ford. They have had to deal with older factories, an intransigent work force, a splintering market (which clearly they did not understand at first, thanks to their growth years in the '50s and '60s), all the while trying to downsize. No doubt the myopia in Detroit has worsened matters, but the blame cannot be entirely laid at their feet. There is plenty of blame to go around, I am sure. Clearly, it isn't like a CEO wakes up one morning and declares: "OMIGOD, where did all my customers go?" They left by degrees. IBM has gotten out of manufacturing entirely. They've decided there is more money to be made in IT services.

Consumer perceptions are all about optics. One example that jumps out at me (being the old fart that I am) is that even with the mags like Road & Track, Motor Trend and others, the 'imports' in fact dominate both the print ads and the articles. Since those vehicles don't interest me, I stopped buying the magazines years ago, but that only played into the imports hands. I remember a time when Motor Trend actually separated their Car of the Year offerings. I remember when there might be one Mazda or one Datsun in an entire issue of Motor Trend, while the rest of the articles were devoted to the latest Detroit iron. Snowball rolling down hill, I am afraid.

Is all of that a bad thing? No, in a mature market, I suppose not. But when GM and Ford used to unveil a dozen models each year and occupied the majority of the press, it would have been upstarts like VW, AMC and others that would have fought for respect. Now, with the majority of the 'excitement' coming from the imports, it is Detroit that is fighting for recognition.

The point of the book I cited earlier is that with products becoming more alike, marketing becomes more imperative. GM and Ford have clearly lost sight of this. Whether Mullaly's fresher eyes can turn things around for Ford remain to be seen, but perhaps that is a major reason why the Japanese bested Detroit: they could see America from the outside.

[Croc]

The point of the book I cited earlier is that with products becoming more alike, marketing becomes more imperative. GM and Ford have clearly lost sight of this. Whether Mullaly's fresher eyes can turn things around for Ford remain to be seen, but perhaps that is a major reason why the Japanese bested Detroit: they could see America from the outside.

But this is the inherent problem. Products cannot become homogenized. This alleged need for marketing is exactly what compromised GM in the 80s and 90s, with lookalike, priced-alike products differentiated only by marketing. "Brand management" was and is a failure.

"It's all about the product, stupid."

[Camino LS6]

There is no valid reason for, nor any benefit to, killing Pontiac - period.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

But this is the inherent problem. Products cannot become homogenized. This alleged need for marketing is exactly what compromised GM in the 80s and 90s, with lookalike, priced-alike products differentiated only by marketing. "Brand management" was and is a failure.

"It's all about the product, stupid."

A car is a car is a car, period. Whether it is FWD, RWD, AWD, 4 doors, 2 doors - these are all details. The real differences between the Malibu, Camry, Accord, Mazda 6 are all in the subtleties. None of these are bad cars. That is my point. Choosing which one is better for you, the consumer, that is the challenge. That is where marketing comes into play. We can argue that homogenization is a bad thing, but I suspect too much choice is overwhelming the consumer. They are starting to tune the facts out and going with what they believe (need?) to be true.

GM has the product. Where they are suffering is in the details of how to get the message out. With all the makes and models that everyone is advertising, it is getting harder to be heard in the cacophony. This could be the real problem.

Does GM need 80+ models to target 24% market share? That is the question. How to target an ever diminishing pool of funds into a market that is, if anything, fragmenting more every year.

[Robert Hall]

Not to change the thread, but what is sad is that the only person that I know that owns Pontiac--ANY Pontiac (he owns old ones ('60s-70s GTOs) and newer ones ('02 T/A, '06 GTO)) is north of 50.

My peers--both in Colorado and here in Arizona, with the exception of some SUVs, overwhelmingly drive import brands..my team at my new company, all mid 20s to late 30s, about 1/2 single or DINKs, 1/2 MWC, drive a Toyota Matrix, Toyota Tundra crew cab, 2 '07 BMW 3-series, a Civic, a Camry, 1 '07 Infiniti G35, and 1 '07 Infiniti G37..with my Jeep, I'm the only one driving domestic...that's been typical at the last 3 companies I've worked at.

Edited May 8, 2008 by moltar

[SuperSport623]

Not to change the thread, but what is sad is the only person that I know that owns Pontiacs--old ones ('60s-70s GTOs) and newer ones ('02 T/A, '06 GTO) is north of 50. My peers--in Colorado and here in Arizona, with the exception of some SUVs, overwhelmingly drive import brands..my team at my new company, all mid 20s to late 30s, drive a Toyota Matrix, Toyota Tundra crew cab, 2 '07 BMW 3-series, a Civic, a Camry, 1 '07 Infiniti G35, and 1 '07 Infiniti G37..with my Jeep, I'm the only one driving domestic...that's been typical at the last 3 companies I've worked at.

most of the people I know that own pontiacs, new OR old, are under 30... and these are the same people that bought GTOs and are looking at G8s...

[Camino LS6]

The G8 ST will be my third RWD, V8, Performance oriented new Pontiac since 2002.

Do they really want to lose me?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Your entire supposition is dependent upon GM's current fiscal health being better than the press is stating (it's probably worse, as the $30Billion writedown last Q was an admission of exactly that.)

So, there's no money to retrench or retool or reequip the troops, so to speak. What you're proposing is parallel to sending US troops into battle with broomsticks because the Gov't can't afford to buy enough supplies--why would a good 'General' do that?

Second, and almost as important. There's noone to blame but GM for the mess. Blaming others is a uniquely American fetish--The press and Wall Street would gladly pick on whomever was in this predicament. Unfortunately, GM half-assed its way through decades of product---and, now that the product is demonstrably better, the competition has sunk their claws into ex-GM customers and isn't letting go.

Explain to me why I (or anyone) should gamble on GM when I've got a sure thing in my driveway? Especially with the 2nd largest investment I'm going to make? Or put my child or wife in? It's just simply against human nature itself to ask people to do so.

You continually make excuses, I'd like things to be made better. That's the essential difference in our positions. I suspect much of it has to do simply with life experience, but I'm not sure you realize how real-world adults make decisions--to believe that something in the newspaper or TV makes people zombies that run down to the local Toyota dealer is laughable--more likely, humans are risk-averse--and it simply makes little sense to purchase most of what GM offers.

My background is Psychology and Sociology... Environment affects everything whether you choose to believe it or not.

[97regalGS]

either RW and company are complete masterminds and have managed to keep their strategic plan so secretive that everyone will be stunned in 5 years when GM is the world's largest auto manufacturer and makes more profits than toyota.

or, GM hasn't got a damn clue how to become a global car manufacturer, with key brand definitions and marketing programs to promote the brands and the products/portfolio mix to support the brands.

i see no evidence of the latter, i see no evidence that pontiac is getting any new product that to suggest that gm has any clue as to what pontiac represents in the market today and what it should represent tomorrow.

in fact what i do see, is the potential third and forth storm front with continued additional increases in gas prices thus hammering large truck sales and in turn profits, and a new 'green' initiative by the next government that further complicates the future of the internal combusiton engine. in that situation, i'd gm is in some pretty deep $h! and may surive, as a shell of their former self.

their only wild card might be if they can leapfrog the Hybrid Synergy Drive technology and marketing machine, with the Volt, e-volt and any other new fandangled technology. that would be a game changer. without that, they are lost at sea floating around with no motor and no wind.

and btw, i have no idea why us Canucks love our Pontiacs. we must have had a cladding fetish!

[The O.C.]

Not to change the thread, but what is sad is that the only person that I know that owns Pontiac--ANY Pontiac (he owns old ones ('60s-70s GTOs) and newer ones ('02 T/A, '06 GTO)) is north of 50.

My peers--both in Colorado and here in Arizona, with the exception of some SUVs, overwhelmingly drive import brands..my team at my new company, all mid 20s to late 30s, about 1/2 single or DINKs, 1/2 MWC, drive a Toyota Matrix, Toyota Tundra crew cab, 2 '07 BMW 3-series, a Civic, a Camry, 1 '07 Infiniti G35, and 1 '07 Infiniti G37..with my Jeep, I'm the only one driving domestic...that's been typical at the last 3 companies I've worked at.

I don't know ANYONE that owns a Pontiac.

Let's get brutally honest here. Pontiac is irrelevant in today's marketplace. Take fleet/rental sales out of it, and you have a brand that is a trickle in the bucket in regards to true consumer appeal and consideration.

I'm sorry to the many Pontiac fans on here (I used to be one of them.)

The G8 is WONDERFUL......but it's one lone star in a lineup of totally irrelevant products.

G6 is a JOKE. G5 is a JOKE. Torrent is a JOKE. Grand Prix is (was?) a JOKE. Let's be f@#kING honest here. This product lineup is lackluster at BEST compared to the competition....and really offers nothing that can't be had at another GM division (except the aforementioned G8.)

Face it folks. It's GM's Plymouth.

DAMMIT I get pissed off. Sorry. End of rant. I'm just sick of all the mediocrity from this corporation and people trying to pass it off as ANYTHING nearing significance in today's marketplace......cause the consumer obviously doesn't consider it significant AT ALL.....

:angry2:

[Camino LS6]

This consumer obviously does.

I will continue to buy any Pontiac worth owning.

Three new ones since 2002 once the ST arrives.

The others, well they shouldn't be Pontiacs.

Except the Solstice which you forgot.

[SuperSport623]

I don't know ANYONE that owns a Pontiac.

Let's get brutally honest here. Pontiac is irrelevant in today's marketplace. Take fleet/rental sales out of it, and you have a brand that is a trickle in the bucket in regards to true consumer appeal and consideration.

I'm sorry to the many Pontiac fans on here (I used to be one of them.)

The G8 is WONDERFUL......but it's one lone star in a lineup of totally irrelevant products.

G6 is a JOKE. G5 is a JOKE. Torrent is a JOKE. Grand Prix is (was?) a JOKE. Let's be f@#kING honest here. This product lineup is lackluster at BEST compared to the competition....and really offers nothing that can't be had at another GM division (except the aforementioned G8.)

Face it folks. It's GM's Plymouth.

DAMMIT I get pissed off. Sorry. End of rant. I'm just sick of all the mediocrity from this corporation and people trying to pass it off as ANYTHING nearing significance in today's marketplace......cause the consumer obviously doesn't consider it significant AT ALL.....

:angry2:

but with platforms/products ALREADY in GM's stable or under development, you can make a kick ass division that can capture todays young AND young at heart... it could easily have a relevant place in the market

[enzl]

My background is Psychology and Sociology... Environment affects everything whether you choose to believe it or not.

Not disputing your theory, I just don't think it explains or excuses the incompetence we're currently witnessing.

All you've got to do is look at the sales figures & realize GM hasn't made a dime producing passenger cars in the US market for about 20 years or so. There's nothing that indicates to me that streak is about to be broken...

Just in case you haven't heard the news: Toyota is currently the leader in marketshare as a nameplate & GM has produced 30% less vehicles to date in NA this year. Frightening doesn't adequately describe the situation.

[The O.C.]

Except the Solstice which you forgot.

Ah hell....I can get a (better-looking) SKY at the local Saturn store.

What's special about the Solstice?

(Okay, okay....maybe the upcoming Targa.....)

[Camino LS6]

but with platforms/products ALREADY in GM's stable or under development, you can make a kick ass division that can capture todays young AND young at heart... it could easily have a relevant place in the market

Precisely.

What GM lacks is the will to actually get the job done for a change.

[The O.C.]

but with platforms/products ALREADY in GM's stable or under development, you can make a kick ass division that can capture todays young AND young at heart... it could easily have a relevant place in the market

Okay....but what is GM REALLY gonna do to separate Pontiac from the GM-divisional run-of-the-mill?

In a utopia, it would have all these RWD cars we've been dreaming about. But that's not gonna happen. New G6 on a FWD Epsilon II chassis. Really, in the grand scheme of things....what is going to make the G6 a viable alternative to the excellent Malibu and decent AURA? The days when people bought a Pontiac simply because it was a "Pontiac" are FAR GONE.

No Trans-Am. No GTO.

No small, RWD entry-level performance coupe and sedan (I bet....you just wait....it won't happen.)

WHY DOES PONTIAC EXIST?

That's the $1MM question.

[Camino LS6]

Okay....but what is GM REALLY gonna do to separate Pontiac from the GM-divisional run-of-the-mill?

In a utopia, it would have all these RWD cars we've been dreaming about. But that's not gonna happen. New G6 on a FWD Epsilon II chassis. Really, in the grand scheme of things....what is going to make the G6 a viable alternative to the excellent Malibu and decent AURA? The days when people bought a Pontiac simply because it was a "Pontiac" are FAR GONE.

No Trans-Am. No GTO.

No small, RWD entry-level performance coupe and sedan (I bet....you just wait....it won't happen.)

WHY DOES PONTIAC EXIST?

That's the $1MM question.

The better question is why doesn't a real Pontiac lineup exist?

Kappa

Zeta

Alpha

That's all they need.

[The O.C.]

The better question is why doesn't a real Pontiac lineup exist?

Kappa

Zeta

Alpha

That's all they need.

OK.

Agreed.

But do you think that has even the remotest possibility of happening?

And if you don't think so.....then what IS Pontiac?

[SuperSport623]

exactly.. perfect platform utilization that could instantly revive the brand.. using current platforms, engines, and parts, all it takes is the right leadership.

make the brand stand out... dynamic in your face styling, availability of a stick across the board, suspensions all tuned towards performance, some turbo 4 bangers, hi po V6s and some V8s available, hell, if you wanna dream, maybe the XWD setup from the saabs can make a future alpha into a real WRX competitor ,,,

seriously, get the right leadership and this CAN happen with ease..right now, Pontiac IS overlap.... as said before, nothing any other division either doesnt already have, or can absorb easily... why not change that? utilize some parts bin fun, mix in some creativity and see what happens

theyve blown countless billions on Saturn, without much return... try a real revitalization of pontiac.. its been good to you GM...

[Camino LS6]

OK.

Agreed.

But do you think that has even the remotest possibility of happening?

And if you don't think so.....then what IS Pontiac?

If that, or something damned close, doesn't happen - the answer is dead.

That it hasn't already happened is a crime.

They had a good plan, but have hedged on it, delayed it, and cast doubt upon it instead of getting the job done.

That lineup should be firmly in place by now.