GM RWD Update: FWD Impala remains, Zeta to merge with Sigma

[daves87rs]

FOG, don't get your panties all in a knot!

There will always be a market for fun cars, and Detroit will find a way to build them.

Cletus, your old man sounds like a very sage person. I, myself, was born in '61, and I remember my dad bitching about paying $20 to fill up his '69 300 in 1975 as prices shot up. Inevitably, if one wants to cruise through the mountains, go camping, hiking, etc., then you either have to be rich or buy an economical car. I never suffered psychological damage (well, that is MY assertion) from driving 2.2 litre Mopars in the '80s. My '87 Shadow ES was actually a fun car with the stick - when it wasn't in the shop, that is. The market, and the consumer, will always find a way.

I read the Goldman Sachs report, too. However, UBS Securities released their report, and they believe oil will fall back to $70 a barrel by the end of the year. They cite two huge new finds in the Gulf of Mexico (which increases the U.S.' proven reserves by 60%) and by Brazil. A big, big chunk of the recent price increase (as much as 25% by some estimates) is from pure speculation: witness the stratospheric oil company profits. Even though neither of these finds are anywhere near coming online, the fact they exist will scare the scabs who are driving up the price of oil back under their rocks. UBS Securities also says that the U.S. is basically in a recession and other major consumers are slowing down, so once this speculation bubble subsides, we can return to more 'normal' pricing.

"normal" pricing? So you think the big oil companies are going to give up big profits without a fight?

If it was going to be "normal"-our government would have done something about it.....

Though I hope you are right, Carbiz.

[haypops]

I have always thought the P-B-G sales arm was a good move. However, I never believed the brand charateristics of rear drive performance, trucks, and luxury cars was the way to go. I see age as a determinate for these three brands. Pontiac 20=30 year old singles, GMC 30-50 year old family type vehicles, and Buick for empty nesters after that.

Lutz says the electrification of the car is the future. Do you think he means lit hood ornaments for Pontiac?

Pontiac took a nice side trip to performance in the 60's and 70's, but it isn't the only part or the sustainable part of it's heritage.

This whole topic has been a little too depresing.

enjoy some good times

[daves87rs]

I have always thought the P-B-G sales arm was a good move. However, I never believed the brand charateristics of rear drive performance, trucks, and luxury cars was the way to go. I see age as a determinate for these three brands. Pontiac 20=30 year old singles, GMC 30-50 year old family type vehicles, and Buick for empty nesters after that.

Lutz says the electrification of the car is the future. Do you think he means lit hood ornaments for Pontiac?

Pontiac took a nice side trip to performance in the 60's and 70's, but it isn't the only part or the sustainable part of it's heritage.

This whole topic has been a little too depresing.

enjoy some good times

*sigh*

I needed those pics....

[Camino LS6]

Let's all hope that cooler heads prevail and this idiocy doesn't come to pass.

[mustang84]

The fact that there is this corporate squabbling so rampant within GM is proof that things have not changed one iota. I have always been a dual GM/Ford fan and I was really rooting for GM to pull through and maintain its #1 spot making the best cars and trucks in the world. But now, like Camino, I could care less what happens if Pontiac is killed. If Pontiac and Buick go, GM can say good-bye to me and lot of people like me.

GM thought it hurt when they killed Oldsmobile and people permanently left...just wait until Pontiac and/or Buick are killed and they have angered those who have stuck with them through the worst of times.

What's even worse is that Ford gets it, and Ford was in a worse position than GM for a long time. Mulally shook out the egomaniacs and now they are running efficiently with one vision between all worldwide offices, not a bunch of feudal battles like those still taking place at GM. In these cut-throat days, it's absolutely insane that GM has not gotten over this. GM is wasting time and resources with its indecisiveness.

Pontiac has far more recognition than Saturn, it sells more, and the new products are doing well...if GM management cannot see why it is completely, 100% moronic to kill Pontiac, then I no longer have any hope for this company.

[gmcbob]

I'm picking up what everyone is putting down tonight. I dunno...I think Pontiac as a brand is just awesome - especially when you go back through time and think about the 1960s GTO's, the mid 70s TA's, the 1993 and later F-Body Pontiacs (the 98-02 WS6 Formulas in black were just out of f-ing control in both looks and just raw, in your face personality), but lets look at what's happening in the market now with an open mind, and with a true sense of complete and utter logic. I don't think GM has the resources to bring out WRX style, import performance fighters and badge them as Pontiacs (which I think would be a cool direction, if they could only figure out how to market that idea to Joe Public, WRX type enthusiasts). I'm sure GM management has thought about that (hell, if I thought of it, I'm sure someone else within GM has) - but I think GM is a numbers company - if they don't see themselves selling a lot of WRX type, out of the box performance vehicles through Pontiac, they probably just won't do it because they have shareholders (that are probably pretty pissed right now) to answer to.

What really sucks about all of this of course, is that it's their own fault. Because they decided to take the easy high road for the last 15 years, they decided to solely focus on trucks - not realizing at all that they had so much history and (quite frankly) such incredibly cool brand character to really do some seriously cool things with every one of those brands - if they would have spent some more money during that time differentiating and growing those brands/images, I think they would have had more market share today. Basically, by letting their cars waste away, they screwed themselves out of the car business altogether, and let the Japanese and their two-brand only strategies completely take control (which was inevitable, considering GM gave them market share anyways, and two brands are a lot easier to manager probably).

With that said however, I will buy a Chevy (as opposed to a B-P-GMC) if it's a really good car - which it really could be if GM puts some real effort behind it. The new Malibu is a good car - I love the looks of the new Camaro (and c'mon guys, wouldn't a smaller, bad ass light weight rwd. Camaro be super awesome with similar styling to the one that's coming out?) Imagine a 3100 lbs. rear drive, modern Sigma like suspension under it, be insane??? Think G37/350ZX with a small block GM LS engine or a DI GM V6? I'd be psyched.

Lets turn our frowns about a potential Pontiac death upside down into the possibility of some really good Chevrolets. Seriously.

[Camino LS6]

NO.

Not good enough.

[Blake Noble]

Lets turn our frowns about a potential Pontiac death upside down into the possibility of some really good Chevrolets. Seriously.

Outside of the Zeta F5 Camaro and the Alpha F6 Camaro afterwards there is nothing much of the way in cars at Chevy that could simply urge me to spend money on a car from that particular division. Pontiac has two really great products that do many things well and very few things wrong: the G8 and the Solstice in both of its forms. Those two cars are the foundations on which Pontiac should work itself up from. And it is those two cars that I would be seriously interested in right now if there was no F5 Camaro to hold my attention.

Cadillac is out of my reach. Buick, while the new Invicta does look really nice, does nothing for me. And Saturn, while every product at that division is a very nice, quality-focused product, could only seriously get my business with the Sky. Saab is interesting, I will admit, but I do not know if I would spend money on a Saab product knowing that I could get into what I really want for that same amount of money.

Pontiac is really the only division from GM out there that I can guarantee my business to should I want to buy something outside of the F5 Camaro or the NG compact pickups (provided that they are quality products next time around).

And if the Alpha Pontiac G6 was already here, and nothing more than words on paper, well then I would have to say that chances are good that I might would actually find myself dining at the Waffle House in regards to the F5 Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

I might sound like I am just preaching to the choir here, but it is the truth.

Well, if Pontiac does fade away, it seems that I will be buying a BMWs in the future to accompany my F5 and F6 Camaros.

Edited May 8, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

Outside of the Zeta F5 Camaro and the Alpha F6 Camaro afterwards there is nothing much of the way in cars at Chevy that could simply urge me to spend money on a car from that particular division. Pontiac has two really great products that do many things well and very few things wrong: the G8 and the Solstice in both of its forms. Those two cars are the foundations on which Pontiac should work itself up from. And it is those two cars that I would be seriously interested in right now if there was no F5 Camaro to hold my attention.

Cadillac is out of my reach. Buick, while the new Invicta does look really nice, does nothing for me. And Saturn, while every product at that division is a very nice, quality-focused product, could only seriously get my business with the Sky.

Pontiac is really the only division from GM out there that I can guarantee my business to should I want to buy something outside of the F5 Camaro or the NG compact pickups (provided that they are quality products next time around).

And if the Alpha Pontiac G6 was already here, and nothing more than words on paper, well then I would have to say that chances are good that I might would actually find myself dining at the Waffle House in regards to the F5 Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

I might sound like I am just preaching to the choir here, but it is the truth.

Well, if Pontiac does fade away, it seems that I will be buying a BMWs in the future to accompany my F5 and F6 Camaros.

I've always liked Camaros, but not as an only choice. When buying a GM performance car, I want something a touch less common yet not much more expensive than a Camaro. So, if this comes to pass, only the trucks will still be of interest to me.

I will likely end up in the BMW camp as well - with deep regrets.

[vonVeezelsnider]

im actually pretty depressed over this... if pontiac doesnt get alpha, it IS the death knoll for pontiac...

Gentlemen, i think its over

I'm not so sure... Pontiac isn't teh same division it was... But we'll always have the memories, now won't we?

1969 Acadian

1975 LeMans

1994 Trans Sport

2007 G5 (?)

So sad that the last Pontiac my family will likely ever have a chance at will be a rebadged Cobalt. They've fallen quite bit from that '69 Judge that's burned in everyone's memory when you think about it. I shake my head, but let's not go blaming PCS... He explained to me a long time ago his attitude about Zeta, the G8 and Pontiac, and I accepted it as perfectly reasonable, passionate even. If this is the End... Than They're going out with some good cars that are on the right track in concept (Solstice, G8), Although the G8 is right in concept... to me it will never be more than the GTO of late was to me... A rebadged Australian Car. Good concept, not enough effort. If Pontiac's resurgence was to work as we had all hoped, it was to happen here, not in Australia. Oldsmobile too, seemed to be on the right track, maybe even more so than Pontiac. Will I ever buy a Saturn? No Hummer? No Saab? Maybe but it'd be a tough sell.

I don't see this as a reason to abandon the company that's given so much over and over again to my family, when my grandfather immigrated to this country in 1929 to escape Stalin's oppressive collectivization. His parents first car was General Motors product, since then there have been almost thirty others, not one bad... Maybe I just haven't had the pleasures of RWD V8s but I really, but I love GM Vehicles still, their new product is amazing, and as long as I'm able they will have me as a customer. I don't mind FWD or Turbo 4s, if it keeps Caddies, Buicks, and Chevies rolling off the assembly line... so long as they never become what Pontiac has been allowed to become.

If it's somehow necessary to the bigwigs to eat a few slices to keep the majority of the Pizza intact, then I'll have to accept that. We all wish that Pontiac won't die and that Oldsmobile never did... I personally think some smaller slices (read Saturn, Hummer, Saab) should be the ones lopped first but GM's a global company, and Saab and Saturn-Opel have more global potential maybe...

As long as GM can make tasteful, conservative, yet sophisticated cars like the Malibu, Invicta, Acadia, and CTS, as well as a nice NG Impala, Regal, and NG DTS, I'm happy as all my bases are covered.

Edited May 8, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[Camino LS6]

Only Pontiacs and Chevrolets have ever parted me from my money when it comes to new vehicles. So without Pontiac, I would have exactly one GM car I would actually consider (Camaro).

I'm bored just thinking about that.

One flippin choice out of so many GM models - pathetic.

[SuperSport623]

while you guys seem to look to other companies that may get your attention in the absence of pontiac.... besides a new camaro (too heavy for my tastes) or a vette (too pricey) theres not much that interests me.. i dont see why i need a new car at all... when in my life do i need to buy a new car that i dont like (because its obvious the automakers dotn want to make what i desire) when i can buy a fun car thats never gonna happen again... ive said it before... ill have no reason to go to a dealer, im sticking with used cars for the future...

[Camino LS6]

while you guys seem to look to other companies that may get your attention in the absence of pontiac.... besides a new camaro (too heavy for my tastes) or a vette (too pricey) theres not much that interests me.. i dont see why i need a new car at all... when in my life do i need to buy a new car that i dont like (because its obvious the automakers dotn want to make what i desire) when i can buy a fun car thats never gonna happen again... ive said it before... ill have no reason to go to a dealer, im sticking with used cars for the future...

Well, I love the old stuff too.

However, that's an option I'd rather not be forced into 100% of the time.

I may be keeping my G8 ST forever though should the worst happen.

Time to start collecting GTOs and Firebirds again too, I guess.

[Blake Noble]

I've always liked Camaros, but not as an only choice. When buying a GM performance car, I want something a touch less common yet not much more expensive than a Camaro. So, if this comes to pass, only the trucks will still be of interest to me.

I would have to agree with you Camino in regards to what you have just said (especially what I have bolded).

To tell the truth, the only reason as to why the Camaro really manages to hold my attention as well as it does is because that I have always aspired to own one since I was a kid, it speaks to me on a highly emotional level above everything else about the car; above the excellent design and what I know will be excellent driving dynamics. And it is built by one of my favorite automakers as well and I would like to support them if I could.

I will likely end up in the BMW camp as well - with deep regrets.

If GM will not do what is right for itself and as well as doing what is right for their consumers and enthusiasts alike, then I will not regret leaving the company and giving my money to a company that is smart and deserving of it. I do not have sympathy for any sort of stupidity, regardless of circumstance. I only look upon it with pity.

But I would be mournful that I had to leave the company that I intended on giving all of or at least a majority of my business to over the course of my lifetime. That is the sort of consumer every company aches for. And I would be very mournful to watch the one company that has had the biggest presence during my childhood, that company that I think truly gave me my enthusiasm for the automobile and automotive design, burn away into oblivion.

Edited May 8, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Blake Noble]

[...] Without Pontiac, I would have exactly one GM car I would actually consider (Camaro).

I'm bored just thinking about that.

One flippin choice out of so many GM models - pathetic.

+1

[SuperSport623]

besides classic iron, theres plenty of 04-06 Goats, and 4th gen Fbodys that could make awesome daily drivers....

id really love a G8 ST as my one new car purchase though

Edited May 8, 2008 by SuperSport623

[Camino LS6]

The lack of other products I would buy also sort of cheapens the significance of Camaro.

Something of a double - homicide from my viewpoint.

I'd want a Camaro to be my first choice if I were to buy one, not my only choice.

[SuperSport623]

exactly!

[daves87rs]

I'm not so sure... Pontiac isn't teh same division it was... But we'll always have the memories, now won't we?

1969 Acadian

1975 LeMans

1994 Trans Sport

2007 G5 (?)

So sad that the last Pontiac my family will likely ever have a chance at will be a rebadged Cobalt. They've fallen quite bit from that '69 Judge that's burned in everyone's memory when you think about it. I shake my head, but let's not go blaming PCS... He explained to me a long time ago his attitude about Zeta, the G8 and Pontiac, and I accepted it as perfectly reasonable, passionate even. If this is the End... Than They're going out with some good cars that are on the right track in concept (Solstice, G8), Although the G8 is right in concept... to me it will never be more than the GTO of late was to me... A rebadged Australian Car. Good concept, not enough effort. If Pontiac's resurgence was to work as we had all hoped, it was to happen here, not in Australia. Oldsmobile too, seemed to be on the right track, maybe even more so than Pontiac. Will I ever buy a Saturn? No Hummer? No Saab? Maybe but it'd be a tough sell.

I don't see this as a reason to abandon the company that's given so much over and over again to my family, when my grandfather immigrated to this country in 1929 to escape Stalin's oppressive collectivization. His parents first car was General Motors product, since then there have been almost thirty others, not one bad... Maybe I just haven't had the pleasures of RWD V8s but I really, but I love GM Vehicles still, their new product is amazing, and as long as I'm able they will have me as a customer. I don't mind FWD or Turbo 4s, if it keeps Caddies, Buicks, and Chevies rolling off the assembly line... so long as they never become what Pontiac has been allowed to become.

If it's somehow necessary to the bigwigs to eat a few slices to keep the majority of the Pizza intact, then I'll have to accept that. We all wish that Pontiac won't die and that Oldsmobile never did... I personally think some smaller slices (read Saturn, Hummer, Saab) should be the ones lopped first but GM's a global company, and Saab and Saturn-Opel have more global potential maybe...

As long as GM can make tasteful, conservative, yet sophisticated cars like the Malibu, Invicta, Acadia, and CTS, as well as a nice NG Impala, Regal, and NG DTS, I'm happy as all my bases are covered.

I wish more people thought like ya, Veez.

While it would be very sad, we still have to be open minded.

GM is not the only company that is going to suffer-others will follow.

Changes are really going to suck for the car lover. MPGs are all the automakers are going to think about .

[Camino LS6]

I wish more people thought like ya, Veez.

While it would be very sad, we still have to be open minded.

GM is not the only company that is going to suffer-others will follow.

Changes are really going to suck for the car lover. MPGs are all the automakers are going to think about .

Screw that!

No surrender, no compromise!

Build what I want or I walk - that simple.

[daves87rs]

Screw that!

No surrender, no compromise!

Build what I want or I walk - that simple.

Understood. I hope GM realizes that.

Just as long as everyone can keep it civil....

[SuperSport623]

Understood. I hope GM realizes that.

Just as long as everyone can keep it civil....

Civil? keep it civil? i say we riot! bring this to the streets!

let the looting begin!

[Camino LS6]

One over the line comment in 7 pages on such an emotionally charged issue is pretty good in my book. :AH-HA_wink:

[daves87rs]

Civil? keep it civil? i say we riot! bring this to the streets!

let the looting begin!

[daves87rs]

One over the line comment in 7 pages on such an emotionally charged issue is pretty good in my book. :AH-HA_wink:

Well, I guess when you put it that way..... :AH-HA_wink:

I hate when I have to write in all caps....

[The O.C.]

Borger has already said people like us, loyal fans of GM, "motorheads", DO NOT MATTER.

I hate to be absurdly blunt.....but you DON'T matter.

Unfortunately, GM can't survive on it's loyal fans alone....in the grand scheme of things.

That much MUST be obvious to you.....?

[Camino LS6]

I hate to be absurdly blunt.....but you DON'T matter.

Unfortunately, GM can't survive on it's loyal fans alone....in the grand scheme of things.

That much MUST be obvious to you.....?

It can't survive without them either.

[daves87rs]

I hate to be absurdly blunt.....but you DON'T matter.

Unfortunately, GM can't survive on it's loyal fans alone....in the grand scheme of things.

That much MUST be obvious to you.....?

O.C-check my post..already bought that up...

It's ok-it's late...

[The O.C.]

The management can claim that we enthusiasts don't matter, but they are dead wrong. Word of mouth is the most powerful sales tool in the world. We enthusiasts act as ambassadors for GM - alienate us and you alienate an exponentially larger group of non -enthusiasts for each one of us.

Don't be fools.

Camino, like I just said above......

The realities of the marketplace is that GM cannot rely on GM "enthusiasts" and "ambassadors." Those (VERY) few of us will never keep GM afloat.

It's going to mean some very severe business decisions that will most likely affect and hurt those of us closest to the corporation. But failing to make those decisions mean clear and certain death for the corporation.

We GM "enthusiasts" and "ambassadors" are severly under-represented. We are a unique and dying niche, unfortunately. It's 2008....not 1968. The corporation will not suvive succumbing to only our whims anymore.....

[SuperSport623]

who are the consumers that not only buy gm, but push others to give them a chance... you alienate us, you lose mroe then just us....

[The O.C.]

It can't survive without them either.

You think Toyota has a cadre of loyal fans as dedicated as GM?

I bet not.....

Look where they are today.....

[Camino LS6]

Camino, like I just said above......

The realities of the marketplace is that GM cannot rely on GM "enthusiasts" and "ambassadors." Those (VERY) few of us will never keep GM afloat.

It's going to mean some very severe business decisions that will most likely affect and hurt those of us closest to the corporation. But failing to make those decisions mean clear and certain death for the corporation.

We GM "enthusiasts" and "ambassadors" are severly under-represented. We are a unique and dying niche, unfortunately. It's 2008....not 1968. The corporation will not suvive succumbing to only our whims anymore.....

Again, the point is that they can't survive without us.

[The O.C.]

who are the consumers that not only buy gm, but push others to give them a chance... you alienate us, you lose mroe then just us....

Dude...I'm sorry...I gotta be blunt (again..)

I don't know ANYONE that gives one $h! about GM......except my friends here on C&G.

Not.....a......single......person......in either my personal life, or my career. Even my family. NO ONE. In my social circle, I'm a "lone ranger" when it comes to my appreciation for anything domestic....

[daves87rs]

It can't survive without them either.

Camino is right there.

You don't want to piss off too many of your loyal customers....

[The O.C.]

Again, the point is that they can't survive without us.

Bro....that's just an ignorant statement.......a close-minded view of the (automotive) world.......

I'm sorry to say.....(not trying to be a dick...)

(Edit: Loyal customers can be different than "enthusiasts" like us on this website......)

Edited May 8, 2008 by The O.C.

[Camino LS6]

You think Toyota has a cadre of loyal fans as dedicated as GM?

I bet not.....

Look where they are today.....

GM cannot, should not, and will never be Toyota. Many of GM's biggest blunders came from trying to be just that.

Toyota's approach will never work for GM.

[daves87rs]

Dude...I'm sorry...I gotta be blunt (again..)

I don't know ANYONE that gives one $h! about GM......except my friends here on C&G.

Not.....a......single......person......in either my personal life, or my career. Even my family. NO ONE. In my social circle, I'm a "lone ranger" when it comes to my appreciation for anything domestic....

And it is not going to stop....ever.

Unless people stop being sleep (just do what they are told), they will just keep buying the same cars....

[Camino LS6]

Bro....that's just an ignorant statement.......a close-minded view of the (automotive) world.......

I'm sorry to say.....(not trying to be a dick...)

(Edit: Loyal customers can be different than "enthusiasts" like us on this website......)

One and the same.

Six new GMs already, with a seventh planned. And more than that many others I have directly influenced the purchase of or decided on the purchase of.

The point being that losing your existing base is not a way to success.

Yes, they need us - all of us and then some.

[The O.C.]

And it is not going to stop....ever.

Unless people stop being sleep (just do what they are told), they will just keep buying the same cars....

We can discuss this until we are blue in the head.

What we WANT.....and what we BELIEVE.....is not necessarily the realties of the marketplace.

GM needs to do what's necessary to be successful. And the market is dictating far different avenues to success than what GM (and many of us) were used to years, or decades before.

Like it.....or not....

The question is.....not what do we, as enthusiasts, want.....but what MUST GM do to survive? Unfortunately, I see them as two almost-separate things......

[Camino LS6]

Dude...I'm sorry...I gotta be blunt (again..)

I don't know ANYONE that gives one $h! about GM......except my friends here on C&G.

Not.....a......single......person......in either my personal life, or my career. Even my family. NO ONE. In my social circle, I'm a "lone ranger" when it comes to my appreciation for anything domestic....

That's an accident of location.

[The O.C.]

That's an accident of location.

I have friends and family that live in Michigan (all import drivers, believe it or not), Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, and I'm sure some other places....

It's not just "location."

[Camino LS6]

I have friends and family that live in Michigan (all import drivers, believe it or not), Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, and I'm sure some other places....

It's not just "location."

I'll give you the point that my "location" comment was a glib, oversimplified response - but I trust you get my meaning.

[daves87rs]

We can discuss this until we are blue in the head.

What we WANT.....and what we BELIEVE.....is not necessarily the realties of the marketplace.

GM needs to do what's necessary to be successful. And the market is dictating far different avenues to success than what GM (and many of us) were used to years, or decades before.

Like it.....or not....

The question is.....not what do we, as enthusiasts, want.....but what MUST GM do to survive? Unfortunately, I see them as two almost-separate things......

Two Choices:

1- Build cars like Toyota.

2- Build cars that offer something different.

And with either choice-bulid a damn good car....

They need to pick a direction-stop looking confused....dump models they don't need ...and build cars for the future (Volt)

[The O.C.]

Two Choices:

1- Build cars like Toyota.

2- Build cars that offer something different.

And with either choice-bulid a damn good car....

They need to pick a direction-stop looking confused....dump models they don't need ...and build cars for the future (Volt)

OK....hindsight is 50/50.....

But what if we had Volt.....uh.....today?

Where's the "shock-and-awe" from GM? Why didn't Camaro come out 3 years ago? Why doesn't GM lead in ANYTHING?

That's one of the reasons so many people just don't even consider GM anymore.....

[Camino LS6]

Speed to market must increase dramatically, or all of our opinions are moot.

[The O.C.]

Speed to market must increase dramatically, or all of our opinions are moot.

Speed to market needed to increase dramatically (for years, decades, yadda, yadda)......but never really has.....

<Camino...will you marry me?>

LOL

[Camino LS6]

[daves87rs]

OK....hindsight is 50/50.....

But what if we had Volt.....uh.....today?

Where's the "shock-and-awe" from GM? Why didn't Camaro come out 3 years ago? Why doesn't GM lead in ANYTHING?

That's one of the reasons so many people just don't even consider GM anymore.....

Well, the Volt needs a stupid battery....one that will last a while....unless you want a huge GM lawsuit.....

As far as shock and awe, I'm shocked GM is still able to do anything with new cars with the massive bleeding right now...

Camaro- Well, it better be DAMN good......

Leading is not as imoprtant as having products that people like (oh, and advertising is good too) The new CTS is a example of that...

GM won't be class leading in anything....too far behind the 8 ball....

Edited May 8, 2008 by daves87rs

[daves87rs]

Speed to market needed to increase dramatically (for years, decades, yadda, yadda)......but never really has.....

<Camino...will you marry me?>

LOL

[SuperSport623]

ill be the ring bearer