GM RWD Update: FWD Impala remains, Zeta to merge with Sigma

[SuperSport623]

im actually pretty depressed over this... if pontiac doesnt get alpha, it IS the death knoll for pontiac...

Gentlemen, i think its over

[Chazman]

It's too bad that Pontiac can't absorb Saturn, and ultimately take it's place.

Woiuld anyone shed a tear if Saturn went away, and it's refocused product line were sold as Pontiacs?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GME and Cadillac are the best of friends, so you I think you should be able to tell who will develop it.

So, basically what I predicted and you confirmed a few months ago is actually unfolding.

So next time around Holden will be using the platform that was developed elsewhere, rather than Holden developing a platform that is used elsewhere, as is the case now? So now Holden is just becoming another brand like Vauxhall... I guess that is ok provided the product from GME/GMNA is as good as it is from Holden. The change would make more sense to me if GME was already the one that did Zeta, though. Why change the global RWD homeroom from Holden to GME/GMNA if Holden is already doing a world-class job?

This makes perfect sense given what PCS has said. I'm not so sure it's a bad thing as long as GM stills uses Holden expertise and experience in the RWD arena. Not to mention, GMNA core products (development) seem to be quickly losing significance. How does that factor in to all of this? GMNA needs a reason to exist to maintain control, therefore RWD development might be that reason.

Has Zeta been so much of a failure internally that it was the final straw for Holden? It benefitted them and will benefit NA for a few years, but at what cost and why were there "competing" RWD platforms at GM in the first place? And does this justify all of the rumors we've heard over the years about Sigma and Zeta being related?

to get the unholy 3 way love child of (GME, GM Holden and Cadillac).

How does GME factor in again? They haven't developed any of the RWD platforms. Sure, they need Cadillac to suceed in order to justify their continued existence, but development of Zeta and Sigma hasn't been tied to GME AFAIK.

Not giving Alpha to Pontiac indicates non-functional brain cells in the heads of whatever execs are pushing such a silly agenda.

The next Camaro should be on Alpha though - perfect fit.

Agree and disagree... Alpha is ideal for Pontiac, but Alpha will not suffice for Camaro if V8s are locked out of the program.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That's because GM is about to rip Pontiac's RWD performance persona from the brand. You should be hearing more on that soon.

This means 1 of 3 things.

1) Pontiac WILL eventually die.

2) Pontiac will become the Scion-esque performance brand that evok alluded to a few years ago

3) Pontiac will offer a mix and continue to be a 'compromised' brand either for the sake of CAFE or the sake of volume.

I'm fine with Pontiac being a mixed brand as long as the mission to become a performance division still exists. Performance is much more than RWD and Pontiac could certainly benefit from younger buyers via an EVO competitor or a Mini competitor.

What goes hand-in-hand with this sort of thing, inevitably, is the detractors case for 'they ride the same chassis- what's the point of both Cadillac and (other division 'zeta'). It's more than enough for some to wave the tried-n-true 'badge-engineered' banner high and frantically.

Homogenization only accomplishes one thing automotively: saving a few dollars in the short run.

Oh, and it makes restoration/parts hunting easier 30 years down the road...

I agree and disagree...

My gut fully agrees with you.

However, the imports get away with this sort of thing and it is very cost effective. I just hope that GM hasn't given up on making Cadillac a premier brand to compete with the likes of MB and BMW as well as RR and Bentley (eventually) the aspirations of Cadillac and Pontiac as divisions should remain VITAL to the organization.

My question is this; what if the new Omega will be a hybrid platform of sorts for the premium divisions? Much like Theta-Epsilon relates to Theta, Omega may relate to Zeta. For example; the Cadillac and Saab small utes are Theta-Epsilon while the Vue, Terrain and 'Nox all appear to ride Theta.

GM is retarded if they kill Pontiac. Absolutely retarded. I see far more new Pontiacs driven by my age group than Saturn...like 5x more. Two people from my studio just bought Grand Prixs, and G6's are all over the place here. I can't remember the last time I saw an Aura on the road, and the only Saturns I ever seem to see are the old Ions and L-series.

Christ almighty, Saturn is down almost 16% for the year despite new product. Pontiac is only down half of that and sells 8,000 more a month. So much money has been thrown into "re-imaging" Saturn, Olds and now possibly Pontiac getting the axe, and for what? In-the-toilet sales of the brand whose sole failed purpose was to be the "import fighter." Let's throw away 82 years of heritage for some Opel rebadges.

God, sometimes I just want to smack someone at GM.

I agree 110%

GM seems to be so ignorant sometimes.... Hopefully they're not as dumb as we think.

On a related note... Maybe this is why CPF (GMEs resident asshole) would not cooperate with Holden on Zeta and thus cancelled the Insignia concept (production version) he wanted Sigma to live and didn't support Zeta for political reasons.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

perhaps the most telling sign of yet another hint that pontiac is doomed, is the reduced number and far more feeble cries of those that believe GM is better served with more brands than less.

there used to be outrage in large numbers. it seems that most people have accepted that Pontiac is on life-support and that it is only a matter of time before the plug is pulled.

it's sad, but it has to happen.

No it doesn't...

And you can chalk the lesser outcry up to 2 things.

1) Pontiac is FINALLY getting very competitive, legitimate product.

2) The media has made the prophecy a truth... If you read omething so many times, you'll begin to believe it.

Given the track record of the Opels at Saturn (sales suck, comparatively and haven't been good since intro. Even the Vue was slow at first) and the expense of the divisions in general (Saturn is a dedicated channel, Pontiac is a small piece of a shared channel) and the equity (Pontiac has MUCH more equity than Saturn, which will take TONS of marketing to make relevant to more than the few people it was relevant to yet lost in the transition) and the positive reception of the recent Pontiac product. (The G8 is a success, the G6 was better received in the market than the Aura, the Solstice was a success, the Vibe is a success, the Torrent did well)

GM would be remiss to phase Pontiac out just to appease a few people who can't see the bigger picture. These same people somehow think that GM will make up (Or Ford for that matter) whatever sales they lose from the cancellation of these divisions and will transfer whatever customers these divisions appeal to into other divisions. It's not going to happen in this market. If Detroit is dumb enough to just hand share and customers to the asians (which is excatly what a lot of these 'experts' want) then Detroit deserves to die.

I wouldn't be surprised if Buick ends up with just the Epsilon II LaCrosse, maybe a new Delta II sedan, and the Enclave.

Buick is expanding, GM announced that this year.

If this does happen, I don't think I'll be able to forgive GM for it.

Yeah... I'm about done with GM and their squandering ignorance as well.

It's too bad that Pontiac can't absorb Saturn, and ultimately take it's place.

Woiuld anyone shed a tear if Saturn went away, and it's refocused product line were sold as Pontiacs?

Hell no...

Better yet; sell Saab and move Saturn upmarket (Because, hell, GM is having to completely reposition Saturn anyway) and then move Pontiac into Saturns position.

Edited May 7, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[avant1963]

I've always fought for saving all the GM brands, but now I really believe there is no way for GM to survive without letting them die. And these will be slow, agonizing deaths since there is no way in economic hell that GM could shut the brands down. They will just starve them to death.

Once Pontiac Buick and GMC is fully integrated (hell, the dealership I bought my G6 at is a Pontiac-Buick-GMC-HUMMER-SAAB dealer, not too far from squeezing them all in), Pontiac will be able to drop to about 3 cars, Buick 3 cars, and GMC 4 trucks. Then drop the numbers even more each year until there is nothing left.

I know this is unpopular, but the GM that will survive in the 2010's needs to be Chevy as a stand-alone all encompassing line, then Cadillac, HUMMER, SAAB as the upper dealer (Caddy RWD Lux, HUMMER truck Lux, Saab 4-banger turbo FWD/AWD lux). And that's it. As much as I hate to say it, I can no longer see it any other way in the environment we have now in this country.

[buyacargetacheck]

Fellas, I have been telling you this for a long time now and many of you just refuse to believe it. The changes that are ahead will be larger and more disrupting than you can imagine. Gasoline and crude oil are going higher, much higher. Goldman Sachs came out yesterday and predicted $200/barrel oil (up from $120 now and $50 just a couple of years ago). Others are saying $300 and higher. Couple that with essentially no real median income growth in the USA over the last decade, loss of manufacturing, shockingly increased rates of white collar jobs outsourcing and you have a recipe for no one in this country other than some very rich people able to buy any car.

This will kill "performance" cars except on the high end where the brand will support it. The age of the V-8 is over. RWD or FWD doesn't matter. Any program for mainstream branded cars that hurts fuel economy will be abandoned. BTW, don't blame the government. CAFE is actually doing the dummy leadership at the car manufacturers a big favor because they'll now be forced to be ready with fuel efficient options that the market will demand. For those of you who were living in the 1970s you'll remember when Detroit had the same problem it has now. Instead of Rams piling up and Fits flying out the showroom doors it was Cordobas and GLCs respectively.

Big changes are ahead, and GMNA will look very different soon enough.

Edited May 7, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[cletus8269]

its really sad. its also very odd, my dad actually predicited this abot 5 yrs ago when i was having a conversation with him about all the cars rumored to be coming out, v8 this rwd that, 400hp, 500hp. he asked me why i was getting so excited and i told him just look at the dealership lots... other than a truck or a vette what gets you going? he casually agreed but he was born in 58 and he remembers what the insurance companies did to the musclecar era, and what happened when gas went up. he told me that if i wanted one i had better grab it cause there will more than likely be a 5 yr window and it'll be 1974 all over again. its a shame the next 3 years will be the best for years to come.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I've always fought for saving all the GM brands, but now I really believe there is no way for GM to survive without letting them die. And these will be slow, agonizing deaths since there is no way in economic hell that GM could shut the brands down. They will just starve them to death.

Once Pontiac Buick and GMC is fully integrated (hell, the dealership I bought my G6 at is a Pontiac-Buick-GMC-HUMMER-SAAB dealer, not too far from squeezing them all in), Pontiac will be able to drop to about 3 cars, Buick 3 cars, and GMC 4 trucks. Then drop the numbers even more each year until there is nothing left.

I know this is unpopular, but the GM that will survive in the 2010's needs to be Chevy as a stand-alone all encompassing line, then Cadillac, HUMMER, SAAB as the upper dealer (Caddy RWD Lux, HUMMER truck Lux, Saab 4-banger turbo FWD/AWD lux). And that's it. As much as I hate to say it, I can no longer see it any other way in the environment we have now in this country.

So Saab has a future, but Saturn, Buick, Pontiac and GMC do not?

Whatever... I and hopefully many will kiss GM goodbye if they become another appliance maker. I don't want a Chevy because I don't want to drive the same $h! as 15,000 other people. Screw Saab and Cadillac as they will be one in the same if GME has their way and Hummer doesn't sell cars.

Looks like I'm going European.

[CARBIZ]

FOG, don't get your panties all in a knot!

There will always be a market for fun cars, and Detroit will find a way to build them.

Cletus, your old man sounds like a very sage person. I, myself, was born in '61, and I remember my dad bitching about paying $20 to fill up his '69 300 in 1975 as prices shot up. Inevitably, if one wants to cruise through the mountains, go camping, hiking, etc., then you either have to be rich or buy an economical car. I never suffered psychological damage (well, that is MY assertion) from driving 2.2 litre Mopars in the '80s. My '87 Shadow ES was actually a fun car with the stick - when it wasn't in the shop, that is. The market, and the consumer, will always find a way.

I read the Goldman Sachs report, too. However, UBS Securities released their report, and they believe oil will fall back to $70 a barrel by the end of the year. They cite two huge new finds in the Gulf of Mexico (which increases the U.S.' proven reserves by 60%) and by Brazil. A big, big chunk of the recent price increase (as much as 25% by some estimates) is from pure speculation: witness the stratospheric oil company profits. Even though neither of these finds are anywhere near coming online, the fact they exist will scare the scabs who are driving up the price of oil back under their rocks. UBS Securities also says that the U.S. is basically in a recession and other major consumers are slowing down, so once this speculation bubble subsides, we can return to more 'normal' pricing.

[BuddyP]

It's too bad that Pontiac can't absorb Saturn, and ultimately take it's place.

Woiuld anyone shed a tear if Saturn went away, and it's refocused product line were sold as Pontiacs?

Can't say that I'd shed a tear, however after planning on getting the wife a G6 for her next car, we bought a Aura instead. It was a little more coin but much nicer car in and out... and we got the 3.6 and 6 speed in the XR.

If I were between the Sky and Solstice, I'd pick the sky... again, a much nicer car inside and out.

Vue vs Vibe? Well, I wouldn't own a Toyota so that answers that one too.

All in all, the G8 is all pontiac has to stand out with (yeah they have the Solstice but Saturn also has the sky).

2007 is the first time since Saturn's debut that I've actually paid attention to their products. The name is keeping most people at a distance, however give em a couple years and I bet that will change.

Edited May 7, 2008 by BuddyP

[BuddyP]

Let's throw away 82 years of heritage for some Opel rebadges.

Let me reword that...

Let's throw away some Holden rebadges for some Opel rebadges

Edited May 7, 2008 by BuddyP

[thegriffon]

perhaps the most telling sign of yet another hint that pontiac is doomed, is the reduced number and far more feeble cries of those that believe GM is better served with more brands than less.

there used to be outrage in large numbers. it seems that most people have accepted that Pontiac is on life-support and that it is only a matter of time before the plug is pulled.

it's sad, but it has to happen.

Bull$h!.

It's sad, even more so because it doesn't "have" to happen, but probably will.

[Lamar]

UBS Securities also says that the U.S. is basically in a recession and other major consumers are slowing down, so once this speculation bubble subsides, we can return to more 'normal' pricing.

I sure hope so, CARBIZ. But what will stop Big Oil from price-gouging? There have to be laws against it.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Can't say that I'd shed a tear, however after planning on getting the wife a G6 for her next car, we bought a Aura instead. It was a little more coin but much nicer car in and out... and we got the 3.6 and 6 speed in the XR.

If I were between the Sky and Solstice, I'd pick the sky... again, a much nicer car inside and out.

Vue vs Vibe? Well, I wouldn't own a Toyota so that answers that one too.

All in all, the G8 is all pontiac has to stand out with (yeah they have the Solstice but Saturn also has the sky).

2007 is the first time since Saturn's debut that I've actually paid attention to their products. The name is keeping most people at a distance, however give em a couple years and I bet that will change.

Using that same mindset:

I could buy an Aura, but the Malibu is much nicer.

I could buy a Vue, but the Equinox Sport is lighter and more my style.

I could buy an Outlook, but the Traverse is basically the same thing except cheaper.

I could buy an Astra, but it's dated and the Cobalt SS whips it's ass on performance.

I could buy a Sky, but then I like the individuality of the Solstice Targa better.

I'm not trying to be a ball buster, but how much of this "Pontiac must die" mentality is just that instead of fact?

Bull$h!.

It's sad, even more so because it doesn't "have" to happen, but probably will.

My point exactly...

How much does Pontiac cost the corporation? Seriously? No stand alone dealers, no product development, not much marketing... Sounds like politics to me.

Edited May 7, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Let me reword that...

Let's throw away some Holden rebadges for some Opel rebadges

Rebadging is thrown around so loosely today that we could say "Lets throw away 82 years of Chevrolet rebadges for the sake of Opel rebadges"

It's getting ridiculous IMO.

[thegriffon]

This means 1 of 3 things.

1) Pontiac WILL eventually die.

2) Pontiac will become the Scion-esque performance brand that evok alluded to a few years ago

3) Pontiac will offer a mix and continue to be a 'compromised' brand either for the sake of CAFE or the sake of volume.…

… GM seems to be so ignorant sometimes.... Hopefully they're not as dumb as we think.…

It means one of two things:

1) Pontiac will eventually die (not on purpose, but through dumb-ass decisions, although there are people who are deliberately misleading management to arrange that).

2) Pontiac will offer a mix and continue to be a 'compromised' brand, not for the sake of CAFE, but because of the need for volume and the lack of money. GM doesn't have the money to support Pontiac, but without Pontiac's volume doesn't have the money for anything else either. The solution is rebadged Chevys and Toyotas, but it should be stripped, rebadged Cadillacs (at closer to current Cadillac prices).

PCS has made it clear that there are people, such as himself, within GM who are dedicated to consistently misleading or outright lying to GM's senior management (including CPF) in order to undermine certain divisions or programs. Not surprisingly this is crippling the company's ability to adapt to market conditions. GM needs to realize this and conduct a ruthless purge of such people if it is to survive in NA at all. Stupid decisions such as marketing a midsize Cadillac as a rival for luxury compacts, large crossovers as midsize crossovers, midsize crossovers as compact crossovers (at midsize prices), abandoning midsize SUVs in favor of large SUVs etc., need to be corrected before the company considers cutting brands.

For crying out loud, I can lay out a focused and targeted product plan for all of GM's brands without spending any more money than they will already.

[thegriffon]

It's part of PCS's master plan to phase out Pontiac, I think...the 2nd gen G6 hasn't been announced, the Torrent will be replaced by the GMC Terrain, the G5 is just a Cobalt rebadge, and if the G8 lasts 3-4 years, then what next?

The 2nd Gen G6 is a rebadged Chevy (not the current Malibu, but the Epislon 2 car).

[thegriffon]

Alpha doesn't arrive till after the 2nd-gen G6 runs out, but will currently be a Buick, not a Pontiac (dumbasses—at least restyle and retune it as a Pontiac for NA).

[thegriffon]

the f@#king end.... what a shame... it really looks like the end.... Pontiac was the companion make to not only make it past a few years, but out live its "parent" company (Oakland)

it taeks almost nothing to throw pontiac a new life... but because of stupid interoffice personal vendettas within GM, ittl die

It looks that way, but not because senior managers plan it but because lower ranks such as PCS are fighting their own shortsighted wars that will kill the company if they continue. Fire them all.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Alpha doesn't arrive till after the 2nd-gen G6 runs out, but will currently be a Buick, not a Pontiac (dumbasses—at least restyle and retune it as a Pontiac for NA).

Maybe we can hope for the NG G6 to really catch on... Or maybe this is all just and speculation in the first place. I have a hard time believing that Lutz & Co. are so oblivious to things that they would allow GME to just up and blackball Pontiac like this. Lutz especially was a champion of the division.

As far as the Buick... So were getting an Alpha Buick and an Alpha Cadillac as well. That's pretty f*ckin' dumb, I mean, the two divisions are already competing. How long until one of them is targeted to be phased out because GM is too ignorant to sell products in more than a few basic segments?

I'm sure the fact that GM can sell the Alpha piece at a higher price point under Buick has A LOT to do with this. I guess they're to impatient to realize that the same higher prices could be fetched for Pontiac if they'd put an honest effort forth to rebuild the division.

That's it... If Pontiac dies; I'm out.

Here's to the death of GM and the appearance of PCS in the unemployment line. Maybe he can be a janitor at Ford next.

Edited May 7, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[thegriffon]

if so.... by 2012, it will probably be Buick-Saturn-GMC. Sad, but inevitable at this point? (if the decision has already been made...).

Nope, there will continue to be rebadged Chevys and the Solstice after that, but it will be mostly Buick-GMC. Of course everything could change now that CAFE has breathed new life into rwd, but I don't think that will stop ideologues like PCS preaching the anti-rwd, anti-Holden, Anti-Pontiac propaganda to the leadership in GMNA or GME because of that. Sieg Heil!!!

[thegriffon]

Maybe we can hope for the NG G6 to really catch on... Or maybe this is all just and speculation in the first place. I have a hard time believing that Lutz & Co. are so oblivious to things that they would allow GME to just up and blackball Pontiac like this. Lutz especially was a champion of the division.

As far as the Buick... So were getting an Alpha Buick and an Alpha Cadillac as well. That's pretty f*ckin' dumb, I mean, the two divisions are already competing. How long until one of them is targeted to be phased out because GM is too ignorant to sell products in more than a few basic segments?

I'm sure the fact that GM can sell the Alpha piece at a higher price point under Buick has A LOT to do with this. I guess they're to impatient to realize that the same higher prices could be fetched for Pontiac if they'd put an honest effort forth to rebuild the division. …

The dealers know this already, why do you think the Solstice and G8 had $3K "market adjustments"?

PCS won't become unemployed unless management realize they're being deliberately mislead—he's in GME remember, and that is making money and gaining share, with products that are correctly priced and targeted. Only GMNA and Holden are in danger.

[thegriffon]

Actually if GM can't give Pontiac the product it needs they should sell it to the dealers and SAIC Motor—they may be fwd, but at least the Roewe 550 would make a better Pontiac than none at all.

[BuddyP]

Using that same mindset:

I could buy an Aura, but the Malibu is much nicer.

I could buy a Vue, but the Equinox Sport is lighter and more my style.

I could buy an Outlook, but the Traverse is basically the same thing except cheaper.

I could buy an Astra, but it's dated and the Cobalt SS whips it's ass on performance.

I could buy a Sky, but then I like the individuality of the Solstice Targa better.

I'm not trying to be a ball buster, but how much of this "Pontiac must die" mentality is just that instead of fact?

My point exactly...

Don't get me wrong, I would hate to see Pontiac go... I've owned 2 bonnevilles and a grand prix in recent years.

I was just throwing out me opinion between the Pontiacs and the Saturns. A person could go in circles about all of that. But just for kicks, here's my thoughts on those that you mentioned as well.

1. The Malibu dash is nicer than the Aura... but I still like overall exterior stying of the Aura better

2. I'd take any of the other Lambda's over the Outlook. It is just my least favorite dash/front facia design.

3. I like the Astra exterior, don't like one bit of the interior. I'd take a Cobalt SS over it as well

4. I do like the Solstice targa (but isn't available yet)... overall I'm not much of a convertable fan. But still like the Sky interior loads more than the Solstice.

[thegriffon]

The Astra is nearing there end of it's life cycle, and is an old product with an interior that shows it. The new one is already close to production ready and has been seen in testing. It should debut in early 2009 for sale in the US by 2010 IIRC (but no sedan in the US? Come on!).

[Camino LS6]

Griffon, I am entirely with you on all of your posts in this thread.

And FOG, I may be done with GM as well if they do this to Pontiac.

I hate stupidity - and that's exactly what it is.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The dealers know this already, why do you think the Solstice and G8 had $3K "market adjustments"?

PCS won't become unemployed unless management realize they're being deliberately mislead—he's in GME remember, and that is making money and gaining share, with products that are correctly priced and targeted. Only GMNA and Holden are in danger.

As I type this, selected Holden engineers are being moved out of Holden, to throughout the rest of the corporation and in particular to GME. The official reason is to strengthen the GME product homeroom that is/are designing the EP II's and other GME platforms, etc.

Yes GME is making money and will continue to do so and grow its market share. Unemployment for me? Please don't make me laugh. Next year, I can retire if I so wish, if I do, I have a job offer on the table already from BMW, however I am very loyal to one man in particular at GME, and I don't see me going anywhere, unless it's to GMNA with him. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited May 7, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Northstar]

In 20 years, we will be able to look back on this thread and see how the death of the once greatest company in the world occurred, I fear.

I'm with others here saying there's a certain European automaker or two I wouldn't mind buying cars from... If GM gives me no reason to buy their vehicles, I'm not going to be so loyal as to blindly spend my money on a vehicle I don't want. GM doesn't realize what it's doing, apparently. Trying to make everyone either buy a Cadillac or Chevy (or Hummer or Saab) will not work. People will defect elsewhere, and at a lot higher percentage than they think.

[Camino LS6]

Absolutely true, Northie.

I'm afraid that I'll be one of them.

[BigPontiac]

Some of us already have :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

Ready to lose us all, PCS?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ready to lose us all, PCS?

Change is difficult, but change GM must. It hasn't been like I haven't warned y'all. I've been hinting at this for how long now, remember Tick-Tock? We talked about this on the phone twice, how many months ago, and when the G8 came out, didn't I say get them why you can?

It's not 1970 anymore and GM is not sitting on 50% market share any longer. The times they are a changing. :AH-HA_wink:

[Blake Noble]

Some of us already have :AH-HA_wink:

You have made a wise choice, Big Pontiac. :AH-HA_wink:

[gm4life]

So is Pontiac dead...? I hope is not even close yet, they have no reason to piss more market share down the tubes. Not all Pontiac buyers will land in a Buick or Saturn whatever the plan might be. That is just plain stupid. Getting rid of Pontiac might force me to buy Honda. No kidding. (That is really sad coming from me.) Also Pontiac needs to be mainstream performance a balance of FWD and RWD cars.

Edited May 8, 2008 by gm4life

[Oracle of Delphi]

Sieg Heil!!!

I had more respect for you, until you posted that. I guess if I were black you would have used the N word.

[ocnblu]

Borger has already said people like us, loyal fans of GM, "motorheads", DO NOT MATTER. He doesn't care if we go or stay. It's the people who don't care one iota for cars that put Toyota where they are, and some misguided freaks within GM (corporate assassins all) think GM has to emulate Toyota. I say no f@#king way does GM need to emulate Toyota, GM has always been a more accessible company than Toyota, and they need to remain so. Turning GM into Toyota will HURT GM, not HELP GM.

Killing Pontiac is the supreme height of ignorance. Putting Saturn in Pontiac's place at BPG won't help Saturn sell more cars. Somebody has to face facts... Saturn will NEV VER approach Pontiac's place at GM, or Pontiac's potential within GM. Saturn has no image. They have no history. Any history they made in the beginning is gone, as Saturn is not now what they started out to be... they have been assimilated and homogenized. They are nothing special. Even Pontiac's rebadges (G5 and Torrent) sell, partly because of the mystique of the Pontiac name... the mystique, the image, REMAINS, to this day, through GM's bumbling and mishandling of the brand for so many years. Keeping Pontiac is the right thing to do. Keeping Pontiac distinctive is the right thing to do, even if the division is not ALL-RWD as was speculated and widely hoped-for here among us "motorheads".

GM must not kill Pontiac. Killing another brand in NA will snowball in a negative direction for GM. Pontiac customers will be LOST, not "relocated" within what's left of a once-mighty corporation. GM management hoped they'd retain Oldsmobile customers after that division's demise... it did not happen, and it will not happen if Pontiac is killed, either. Market share will further dwindle... dare I predict, even more so than just the loss of all those Pontiac customers... because people... CUSTOMERS, will see GM as a failed, faltering giant, even more so than they already do... mark my words, if GM kills Pontiac, they will lose Pontiac customers, and MORE, due to the perception that GM is falling apart, brand by brand.

[Camino LS6]

Change is difficult, but change GM must. It hasn't been like I haven't warned y'all. I've been hinting at this for how long now, remember Tick-Tock? We talked about this on the phone twice, how many months ago, and when the G8 came out, didn't I say get them why you can?

It's not 1970 anymore and GM is not sitting on 50% market share any longer. The times they are a changing. :AH-HA_wink:

That doesn't alter the pure stupidity of this course of action.

The plan is composed entirely of FAIL.

I'm all for change that makes sense, this doesn't.

[Camino LS6]

GM must not kill Pontiac. Killing another brand in NA will snowball in a negative direction for GM. Pontiac customers will be LOST, not "relocated" within what's left of a once-mighty corporation. GM management hoped they'd retain Oldsmobile customers after that division's demise... it did not happen, and it will not happen if Pontiac is killed, either. Market share will further dwindle... dare I predict, even more so than just the loss of all those Pontiac customers... because people... CUSTOMERS, will see GM as a failed, faltering giant, even more so than they already do... mark my words, if GM kills Pontiac, they will lose Pontiac customers, and MORE, due to the perception that GM is falling apart, brand by brand.[/b]

Key element of it all.

Do this, and you hasten and ensure the complete failure of GM.

[REDO1GPGT]

So Saab has a future, but Saturn, Buick, Pontiac and GMC do not?

Whatever... I and hopefully many will kiss GM goodbye if they become another appliance maker. I don't want a Chevy because I don't want to drive the same $h! as 15,000 other people. Screw Saab and Cadillac as they will be one in the same if GME has their way and Hummer doesn't sell cars.

Looks like I'm going European.

I'm in the same boat as you...I've always been an Olds and Pontiac guy but now with what looks like Pontiac going the way of Olds it looks as if my GM days are numbered at least for now. When I graduate college in 2-3 years the GP will be well over the 200K mark and I will be looking for a new car. A G8 would suite my needs perfectly but by the sounds of it I'll be lucky to get one in even a just a couple years. I just can't see myself ever driving a Chevy or Saturn, just too generic for me. Even though my GP has a 11 year old design I still get endless compliments from everyone and anyone. That's the kind of sedan I want; something that doesn't blend in, and something I can't get at Chevy or Saturn. Sure I'd love to have a new Cadillac, but right after graduating they will be out of my price range for at least some time.

That's it... If Pontiac dies; I'm out.

Ditto

Time to chop up my GM rewards card.

Edited May 8, 2008 by REDO1GPGT

[wildcat]

General Motors is marking its 100th anniversary as a corporation this year.

(On September 15th, Automotive News will publish a special issue in commemoration. According to AN, "This historical issue will cover the past one hundred years of GM, with a look toward the next century. It will chronicle the people and products that fueled a century of innovation, performance, and style."

Let's see... when telling that history of GM and the brands that made it into a giant, the names Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac are at the very top in importance.

How ironic for GM to be contemplating getting rid of another of their iconic brands when they should, instead, be recognizing and celebrating their history.

[Camino LS6]

You know what the saddest part of this is?

If they do this, I will be forced to stop caring. If I no longer care, I will stop influencing all of the people I know in a positive way concerning GM. I will no longer use the fact that a great many folks ask my advice when purchasing a car to point them in GM's direction.

The management can claim that we enthusiasts don't matter, but they are dead wrong. Word of mouth is the most powerful sales tool in the world. We enthusiasts act as ambassadors for GM - alienate us and you alienate an exponentially larger group of non -enthusiasts for each one of us.

Don't be fools.

[cire]

I think the following plan would help GM better define their brands and make them all more relevant in the market.

Step One: Sell Saab.

Saab needs a lot of attention, but GM lacks the resources to give this brand the attention that it needs. I think there would be quite a few other auto companies that would be very interested in adding Saab to their brand portfolios and would maybe have the resources to give the brand the attention it so desperately needs. Selling Saab would benefit GM by bringing in some money and eliminating the distraction and strain of having to develop products for this low volume player. Saab would benefit by being owned by another auto company that would give it more attention.

Step Two: Further Brand/Dealership Consolidation.

The elimination of Saab would allow GM to consolidate their other remaining U.S. brands into three dealership networks:

* Mainstream, Mass Market: Chevrolet.

* Midmarket, Import Based: Saturn/Pontiac/GMC.

* Luxury: Buick/Cadillac/Hummer.

Step Three: Base Future Brand Product Portfolios On New Three Tier Dealership System.

* Chevrolet: As the affordable mass market brand, Chevrolet would carry the widest range of products. All products would be front wheel drive based except the Camaro, Corvette, Colorado/Trailblazer, and Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban.

* Saturn/Pontiac/GMC: Saturn would carry front wheel drive cars and MPVs based on Opel products. Pontiac would carry rear wheel drive cars based on Holden/Opel products. GMC would carry front wheel drive crossovers (Theta and Lambda) and rear wheel drive trucks based on car platforms (Alpha and Sig/Zeta).

* Buick/Cadillac/Hummer: Buick would carry front wheel drive cars and crossovers. Cadillac would carry rear wheel drive cars. Hummer would carry truck based luxury products.

* The midmarket Saturn/Pontiac/GMC channel and luxury Buick/Cadillac/Hummer channel would carry smaller brand portfolios since each brand will be positioned to appeal to a limited niche portion of the market.

I think this move would eliminate a lot of the redundancy and overuse of vehicle platforms:

Chevrolet:

* Chevrolet: Gamma (Aveo), Delta (Cobalt, HHR, Volt), LWB Epsilon (Malibu, possible Monte Carlo?), Extended LWB Epsilon (Impala), SigZeta (future Camaro), C7 (Corvette), Theta (Equinox), Lambda (Traverse), Compact Truck (Colorado, possible Trailblazer or Tracker?), Fullsize Truck (Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban).

Saturn/Pontiac/GMC:

* Saturn: Gamma (Corsa 3-door, 5-door, "TwinTop" roadster & Meriva), Delta (Astra 3-door, 5-door, sedan, "TwinTop" coupe & Zafira), Epsilon (Aura sedan, "TwinTop" coupe & future MPV)

* Pontiac: Alpha (Solstice roadster,coupe & G4 sedan, coupe, convertible), SWB SigZeta (G6 sedan, coupe, convertible), and LWB SigZeta (G8 sedan, coupe, and convertible)

* GMC: Theta (Terrain), Lambda (Acadia), Alpha (Caballero), SWB SigZeta (Denali)

Buick/Cadillac/Hummer:

* Buick: Delta (Regal sedan, coupe-cabrio), LWB Epsilon (Invicta sedan, coupe-cabrio), Extended LWB Epsilon (Riviera sedan, coupe-cabrio), Theta (Rendevous), Lambda (Enclave)

* Cadillac: Alpha (B-Series sedan, coupe-cabrio, wagon & X-series retractable hardtop roadster), SWB SigZeta (C-Series sedan, coupe-cabrio, wagon), LWB SigZeta (S-Series sedan, coupe-cabrio, wagon), C7 (XLR flagship retractable hardtop roadster)

* Hummer: Compact Truck (H3 SUV, SUT), Fullsize Truck (H4 SUV, SUT)

Edited May 8, 2008 by cire

[ocnblu]

SAAB, Saturn and Hummer are all drains on GM's coffers and should be disposed with. They are distractions from the core. The core needs to be preserved and nurtured at all costs.

[REDO1GPGT]

How much does Pontiac cost the corporation? Seriously? No stand alone dealers, no product development, not much marketing... Sounds like politics to me.

It really would be nice to see Pontiac with a DECENT advertising campaign. The only ads I see for Pontiac are cheesy "President's Day Sales" or whatever the given holiday sale is. There is great power that comes with a great ad campaign. A great example I witnessed was with my own mom. She is your typical vain middle aged yuppie, Gucci handbags, $150 haircuts, designer jeans, etc. etc..and a Lexus ES. After owning a 2000 Bravada she swore she would never go back to GM, the thing was a nightmare in its early miles. Never in a million years would she consider a Cadillac, what would her co-workers think? She was in love with her car and couldn't stop saying how superior the dealer as compared to the local Cadillac-formerly olds dealer. I was sitting watching tv once and she comes by when the new ad for the CTS comes on with some hot brunette talking about chocolates and shoes in it and she goes, "I would look so hot in that car, she's just like me." Ever since then she's been obsessed and even went out on her own to test drive one. Although in our typical local Cadillac dealer fashion the car she was test driving ran out of gas in the middle of traffic. Once she's done with me and my sister in college it's her present to herself she says. I think it's ridiculous but there are a lot of people probably out there like her sadly.

That right there just made me wonder what decent marketing could do for Pontiac, something they haven't had in ummm years??. Of course decent product helps but with the G8 here, Solstice targa, and G8 ST coming soon, they have some. Then of course a large ad campaign is something that GM can't afford so it's just wishful thinking...

[daves87rs]

Nope, there will continue to be rebadged Chevys and the Solstice after that, but it will be mostly Buick-GMC. Of course everything could change now that CAFE has breathed new life into rwd, but I don't think that will stop ideologues like PCS preaching the anti-rwd, anti-Holden, Anti-Pontiac propaganda to the leadership in GMNA or GME because of that. Sieg Heil!!!

Dude, that was so not not cool....

Why do you have to be such an asshole about it?

I doubt the PCS has anything to do about it....Rick and the big boys have that say...

While I am not happy about the idea myself- I WILL NOT RESORT TO PERSONAL ATTACKS.

I HOPE YOU CAN READ THIS LOUD AND CLEAR.

And I wonder why people are leaving this site....

[daves87rs]

SAAB, Saturn and Hummer are all drains on GM's coffers and should be disposed with. They are distractions from the core. The core needs to be preserved and nurtured at all costs.

While I agree with Saab and Hummer, I think Saturn could still be used for either Luxury/ Small cars......

[daves87rs]

You know what the saddest part of this is?

If they do this, I will be forced to stop caring. If I no longer care, I will stop influencing all of the people I know in a positive way concerning GM. I will no longer use the fact that a great many folks ask my advice when purchasing a car to point them in GM's direction.

The management can claim that we enthusiasts don't matter, but they are dead wrong. Word of mouth is the most powerful sales tool in the world. We enthusiasts act as ambassadors for GM - alienate us and you alienate an exponentially larger group of non -enthusiasts for each one of us.

Don't be fools.

While I so agree with you Camino, I fail to see if we disappeared, if that would have any effect on the car world.

We are a dying breed, of people who love their cars and history.

Most people around my age no longer care about anything about that.

They are more worried about how they are going to pay for gas and their house payment this week.

It's hard to be a car lover if you can't afford it.

Like I said before, most people will buy their car like their toaster...like good little sheep.....

[daves87rs]

It really would be nice to see Pontiac with a DECENT advertising campaign. The only ads I see for Pontiac are cheesy "President's Day Sales" or whatever the given holiday sale is. There is great power that comes with a great ad campaign. A great example I witnessed was with my own mom. She is your typical vain middle aged yuppie, Gucci handbags, $150 haircuts, designer jeans, etc. etc..and a Lexus ES. After owning a 2000 Bravada she swore she would never go back to GM, the thing was a nightmare in its early miles. Never in a million years would she consider a Cadillac, what would her co-workers think? She was in love with her car and couldn't stop saying how superior the dealer as compared to the local Cadillac-formerly olds dealer. I was sitting watching tv once and she comes by when the new ad for the CTS comes on with some hot brunette talking about chocolates and shoes in it and she goes, "I would look so hot in that car, she's just like me." Ever since then she's been obsessed and even went out on her own to test drive one. Although in our typical local Cadillac dealer fashion the car she was test driving ran out of gas in the middle of traffic. Once she's done with me and my sister in college it's her present to herself she says. I think it's ridiculous but there are a lot of people probably out there like her sadly.

That right there just made me wonder what decent marketing could do for Pontiac, something they haven't had in ummm years??. Of course decent product helps but with the G8 here, Solstice targa, and G8 ST coming soon, they have some. Then of course a large ad campaign is something that GM can't afford so it's just wishful thinking...

Agreed. So many people out there are like that too....

[daves87rs]

I've always fought for saving all the GM brands, but now I really believe there is no way for GM to survive without letting them die. And these will be slow, agonizing deaths since there is no way in economic hell that GM could shut the brands down. They will just starve them to death.

Once Pontiac Buick and GMC is fully integrated (hell, the dealership I bought my G6 at is a Pontiac-Buick-GMC-HUMMER-SAAB dealer, not too far from squeezing them all in), Pontiac will be able to drop to about 3 cars, Buick 3 cars, and GMC 4 trucks. Then drop the numbers even more each year until there is nothing left.

I know this is unpopular, but the GM that will survive in the 2010's needs to be Chevy as a stand-alone all encompassing line, then Cadillac, HUMMER, SAAB as the upper dealer (Caddy RWD Lux, HUMMER truck Lux, Saab 4-banger turbo FWD/AWD lux). And that's it. As much as I hate to say it, I can no longer see it any other way in the environment we have now in this country.

I don't a point with either Saab or Hummer.....gas prices will make them pointless....