GM RWD Update: FWD Impala remains, Zeta to merge with Sigma

[Camino LS6]

Damn!

And I thought I was going to lead the insurrection, not be forced into a shotgun wedding.

[The O.C.]

Damn!

And I thought I was going to lead the insurrection, not be forced into a shotgun wedding.

You're wearing the bridal gown.....not me.....

[daves87rs]

What the heck, I might as well be the best man... :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

Oh boy.

OK , I give up.

I'll call it a night and let you wreck havoc around here unchallenged for a few hours.

[The O.C.]

Oh boy.

OK , I give up.

I'll call it a night and let you wreck havoc around here unchallenged for a few hours.

You're a good man, Charlie Brown......

[daves87rs]

You're wearing the bridal gown.....not me.....

Guess it really doesn't matter....make your wedding party wear em'....

[daves87rs]

Oh boy.

OK , I give up.

I'll call it a night and let you wreck havoc around here unchallenged for a few hours.

*looks around*

Let the party begin!

Boy, this has been an interesting night.....

[vonVeezelsnider]

I'll call it a night and let you wreck havoc around here unchallenged for a few hours.

So, Who Else here Likes the W and G Cars?

[/havoc]

[SuperSport623]

So, Who Else here Likes the W and G Cars?

[/havoc]

i think i hear the crickets chirping

[Bimmer325]

Two Choices:

1- Build cars like Toyota.

2- Build cars that offer something different.

And with either choice-bulid a damn good car....

They need to pick a direction-stop looking confused....dump models they don't need ...and build cars for the future (Volt)

GM's latest offerings are more competent than ever, but they're not enough in a sea of cars that either reak of "old" GM or need to be replaced, redesigned, or cut. I'm talking about blatant rebadges like the Torrent, G5, outdated rental-queens like the Grand Prix (which was allowed by GM to gather dust on dealer lots for way too many years), and to a lesser extent, Impala. There are still cars that were left without enhancements that could have kept them relevant like the G6, 9-5, STS, DTS.

Believe it or not, I would be interested in buying from Saab if its products were just a little closer to the top of their respective classes. You would never know Saab sells so few cars living in the Northeast, that's for sure. Saabs of every generation line the streets around here, and it's seems they only grow more popular the further into New England you go. I see more new 9-3's in a day in CT than I've seen at all in NY. Around here, driving a Saab says you're upscale, outdoorsy, yet unpretentious. Saabs are an acquired taste of sorts, an image I liken somewhat to Audi. Some say GM should dump it, but I can't imagine a brand like Pontiac next-door ever having such a favorable image, at least in the eyes of many people I know.

[ZL-1]

Saabs are an acquired taste of sorts, an image I liken somewhat to Audi. Some say GM should dump it, but I can't imagine a brand like Pontiac next-door ever having such a favorable image, at least in the eyes of many people I know.

You're right, those two won't ever have the same image or appeal: totally different DNAs

Edited May 8, 2008 by ZL-1

[Oracle of Delphi]

So, Who Else here Likes the W and G Cars?

[/havoc]

Moi!

[Croc]

Moi!

I like the Intrigue (LX5 only, though), and the '97 Grand Prix was the best of the bunch overall...especially in coupe form.

As for G...well I love my Aurora, though some people tell me it's actually H? So confused, but whatever...those two were extremely similar. Again, LX5 for the Aurora, as the 3.5 got the bigger gas tank, almost equal performance, and better mileage. Only advantage the 4.0 had was the one-piece aluminum rear decklid (2001-2002 only) since the plastic insert on the 3.5 and 2003 4.0 are prone to water leakage. Both trims are near-perfect cars, though.

More recent iterations of the respective platforms? Yuck. Lucerne is OK, but the Aurora interior (2nd gen) is much better from a design and ergonomic standpoint.

Edited May 8, 2008 by Croc

[CARBIZ]

Well, now that you girls have all gone to bed, it's time for my :twocents:

Before I came over to GM, I was a dedicated Mopar fan. My first 3 cars were Dodge. My dad always owned Chryslers. Although I haunted dealers since I was 13 or 14, all I knew from Pontiac and Chev was which ones I liked the looks of better - and that changed year by year. Even as I grew up and instinctively learned that Toyota was the Evil Empire, I could've given a crap if the car was FWD, RWD, Pontiac, Chev or Buick. I trusted GM and although I considerd a '87 Century GS and the Bonneville at the time, both were out of my economic reach then. BMW, Audi and the rest were just wierd European cars, over priced and just for the snots that I used to work for in a luxury condo. My prejudices have carried with me, two decades later. My opinons haven't changed, as invariably when I am cut off on the freeway it is by an idiot in an X5 on his (or her cellphone), who doesn't believe they should signal or give the right of way.

My point is, the average consumer, doesn't give a crap. Enthusiasts may, but judging by some of the name calling and hysterics that happened last night, I'd have to say GM has learned a long time ago it cannot please those people, unless they can come up with a 400 hp, RWD, pilarless coupe for $3,500. Notgonnahappen.com, my friends.

Painful choices are going to have to happen. I am quoting on a G6 and an Acadia today: these people are too stupid to realize that the big bowtie on our sign means we have Chevrolet. The opportunity for GM to have done a good job of brand marketing was lost somewhere in the painful choices that were made in the early '80s. There are two generations of car buyers out there now who don't give a $h!.

I do believe, however, that GM must nurture a competive model in each segment. Go after the BMW 3 and the Audis with the CTS. Go after the Corolla with the Cobalt. Go after the Camry with the Malibu and the Avalon with an Impala. Take on Acura with a Buick, and so on. I just can't see the need for 8 brands. If the choice was up to me, Saturn, Hummer and Saab would be gone tomorrow and the P-B-GMC stores would be one also tomorrow (like they are here.) However, I am not privy to the cost-benefit analysis, so I have to assume that Wagoner & Co. have some kind of game plan. As much as I am sure they wish they could tell us (because I know they are reading this), they cannot.

We can cry and threaten all we want. The only thing I know for sure is that fun cars will never go away. GM may only be able to offer one, but then they only have 24% market share, so how could they afford to offer more? When they used to offer 8 or 9 'fun' models, they had 45%. I know, I know, the absolute numbers have not gone down much, but cars were much cheaper to bring to market 25 years ago. It probably costs as much to bring in the Camaro today as the entire Chevrolet line up in 1965.

[z28luvr01]

So the million-dollar question posed by this thread is: "Can GM afford to appeal to abandon both GM enthusiasts and general automotive enthusiasts in favor of bread-and-butter import shoppers?" I think not. If what the critics say is true, that only GM loyalists would ever buy a GM car, then logic states that if they lose GM loyalists that they'll have nobody. Face it: it's in GM's best interests to keep the customers it has while attracting new ones. Falling in line and trying to emulate someone else won't get that done. Innovative, unique cars that still push the limits of design and performance while meeting the various environmental challenges will.

[Camino LS6]

As with many things in this country, what ticks me off is the failure mentality that fosters such things, and the almost eager anticipation exhibited by our own people for destruction.

I say again: no surrender, no compromise.

[Lamar]

So, Who Else here Likes the W and G Cars?

[/havoc]

If we're talking platforms, well, I still have that '01 Bonneville I'm trying to get into.

Beyond that, well, hey...

And I still say this... "all this from a MOTOR TREND article..."

[The O.C.]

I like the Intrigue (LX5 only, though), and the '97 Grand Prix was the best of the bunch overall...especially in coupe form.

As for G...well I love my Aurora, though some people tell me it's actually H? So confused, but whatever...those two were extremely similar. Again, LX5 for the Aurora, as the 3.5 got the bigger gas tank, almost equal performance, and better mileage. Only advantage the 4.0 had was the one-piece aluminum rear decklid (2001-2002 only) since the plastic insert on the 3.5 and 2003 4.0 are prone to water leakage. Both trims are near-perfect cars, though.

More recent iterations of the respective platforms? Yuck. Lucerne is OK, but the Aurora interior (2nd gen) is much better from a design and ergonomic standpoint.

Original Aurora and Riviera were both G-bodies.......but you know, I'm not as sure about the 2nd-gen Aurora.....but I think it was still on the G-body.....?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You think Toyota has a cadre of loyal fans as dedicated as GM?

I bet not.....

Look where they are today.....

I beg to differ, my friend.

Toyota has a cadre of VERY loyal fans. It's just that they don't build the same kind of cars that we enthusiasts like, so not many auto enthusiasts are a part of their "loyal fans" (Although Toyota trucks seem to have a very loyal enthusiast style following)

You know what pisses me off so bad about this...

It's not the fact that Pontiac isn't an all RWD division... It's not the fact that Pontiac apparently will not get Alpha... It's not even the fact that Pontiac isn't a focused performance division as it should be.

What pisses me off is the fact that this is pure politics and nothing more than squandering the life blood of a company that is already bleeding to death.

You know what GM, if you need Pontiac for volume, then make a f*ckin' volume division out of them!!! If you want Pontiac for performance, then make a PERFORMANCE division out of them! You HAVE the resources already at your disposal, you don't have to develop anything. Kappa II is already underway, Epsilon/Epsilon II already has a G6 program and the Zetas are here and so far selling well. We have a new Vibe and Delta II is coming in 2 years

It's your INABILITY to focus the division ONE WAY or THE OTHER that pisses me off. You are allowing a division that could have JUST as much or MORE appeal than 3 out of 5 of your other car divisions, to waste away just because you're too IGNORANT to make a decision and shuffle some papers. It's not that hard. If Pontiac is confined to Epsilon/Eps II for volume, then buuild one helluva G6 and pump up your volume or build an AWD G6 and tackle the mid-level performance market. It's not ROCKET science! (pun intended), be successful at WHATEVER you do and it will help your business model. In order for the division to produce returns, you MUST invest time and money. I thought that was learned with Oldsmobile.

I live in one of the top 20 cities in america, in the increasingly import dominated south, in one of the richest neighborhoods. What do I see people my age (20-30) driving? Not Auras.... Not Malibus... I see G6s and I talk to people who would consider the G6 over anything you sell. Just the other night I was out with a new friend who drives a Prius. I told him I was a GM guy and the first thing he said was: "I really like the G6 and new Aura." Pontiac has GREAT potential to be EVERYTHING that GM traditionally is not, and maybe that's why those in middle mangement are so scared of the division. This mindset/marketing has the ability to connect with the consumer on a whole new level because of the attitude the division did and can again convey. If given the product, Pontiac would lay waste to Saturn and probably seriously threaten Buick in a few years.

I saw a G8 in traffic today and it is such an amazing car. It was almost like one of those commercials where all of the other cars are gray and out comes this bright red beauty. It draws you in and you know that it is something special.

As for us loyalists... We might not buy as many cars as the Toyota drones, but remember, we're ALL you have right now. Most Toyota drivers don't give 2 $h!s that GM exists, much less if they continue to exist. So go ahead and "cut" yourself to death, it'd be doing us a favor anyway if we have to defend the legacy of a corporation that was once so great yet can't even get the hell out of it's own way now.

Edited May 9, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Dude...I'm sorry...I gotta be blunt (again..)

I don't know ANYONE that gives one $h! about GM......except my friends here on C&G.

Not.....a......single......person......in either my personal life, or my career. Even my family. NO ONE. In my social circle, I'm a "lone ranger" when it comes to my appreciation for anything domestic....

Most people don't because they AREN'T ENTHUSIASTS. However, I'm willing to bet that they'll consider the new product when they're shopping for a car. (Even if they don't tell you that)

Recently a study was published that showed significant declines in the number of buyers that DO NOT consider Detroit. GM (and Detroit), the new product IS WORKING! All you have to do is weather the storm and the storm (UAW curve, Pension, Cost, Regulations, Generations changing) doesn't care if you have 1 division or 8 divisions. If the GM ship is going to sink, it'll sink regardless of what cargo is on it.

Edited May 8, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So the million-dollar question posed by this thread is: "Can GM afford to appeal to abandon both GM enthusiasts and general automotive enthusiasts in favor of bread-and-butter import shoppers?" I think not. If what the critics say is true, that only GM loyalists would ever buy a GM car, then logic states that if they lose GM loyalists that they'll have nobody. Face it: it's in GM's best interests to keep the customers it has while attracting new ones. Falling in line and trying to emulate someone else won't get that done. Innovative, unique cars that still push the limits of design and performance while meeting the various environmental challenges will.

I agree.

And GM could use their heritage/enthusiast image to their benfit if they would wake up and offer the consumer a choice.

Tell the consumer: "HEY, we're not Toyota and we're proud of that! If you want a reliable appliance, then by all means buy one. But if you want to take a chance and actually fall in love with your second largest purchase, then shop us."

It's that simple... Americans buy stuff based on EMOTION, not logic. How many people do we all know that buy Japan Inc. based on their negative emotions toward Detroit? A LOT! We live in a vain, consumerist society and GM could exploit that so well if they'd wake up.

[mustang84]

Great rant FOG, 100% spot on.

Pontiac has been advertising in Times Square for a while, clearly there is money to be thrown around.

I don't know why GM is having such a hard time grasping the concept of making Pontiac the affordable sporty division. Give it Alpha, give it turbocharged engines, and watch the twentysomethings flock. The brand already has a connection with this age group! People my age are moving toward fuel efficient cars, but they also still want performance. Pontiac doesn't have to be a full-line division any longer, but for Christ's stake, stop starving it of product and sending people to other manufacturers. Buick-Pontiac-GMC can cover all bases nicely and co-exist together as one marketing channel.

I can handle Chevy not getting a RWD Impala, downsizing, going to smaller engines, etc...but if these internal politicking shenanigans are true and there are people within the company who are trying to sabotage programs or whole brands because they don't fit with some ideology, I fear for the future of GM. There is nothing rational about the way the brands have been handled, and GM can't afford to lose any more customers than it already has by starving Pontiac.

[cire]

Great rant FOG, 100% spot on.

Pontiac has been advertising in Times Square for a while, clearly there is money to be thrown around.

I don't know why GM is having such a hard time grasping the concept of making Pontiac the affordable sporty division. Give it Alpha, give it turbocharged engines, and watch the twentysomethings flock. The brand already has a connection with this age group! People my age are moving toward fuel efficient cars, but they also still want performance. Pontiac doesn't have to be a full-line division any longer, but for Christ's stake, stop starving it of product and sending people to other manufacturers. Buick-Pontiac-GMC can cover all bases nicely and co-exist together as one marketing channel.

I can handle Chevy not getting a RWD Impala, downsizing, going to smaller engines, etc...but if these internal politicking shenanigans are true and there are people within the company who are trying to sabotage programs or whole brands because they don't fit with some ideology, I fear for the future of GM. There is nothing rational about the way the brands have been handled, and GM can't afford to lose any more customers than it already has by starving Pontiac.

Well said! Ditto!

[VenSeattle]

Original Aurora and Riviera were both G-bodies.......but you know, I'm not as sure about the 2nd-gen Aurora.....but I think it was still on the G-body.....?

I believe H, K, C, & G are all designations used for the different variants of the same architecture that debuted with the 1st gen Aurora.

My Park Avenue is supposedly on the LWB Premium Version of the G-Platform but still carries a "C" platform designation in the VIN.

If I understand correctly, the true versions of G breakdown like this regardless of platform designation:

- 1st Gen Aurora & Buick Riviera - shared version

- Buick Park Avenue & Cadillac Seville - shared version

- Pontiac Bonneville, Buick LeSabre, 2nd Gen Aurora, Deville - shared version

- DTS & Lucerne - upgraded version of the one used by Pontiac Bonneville, Buick LeSabre, 2nd Gen Aurora, Deville

-----------------------------

Anyway... I love different W & G vehicles. The Supercharged Buick Regal GS w/Joseph Abboud trim is my favorite W platform vehicle.

The Intrigue would win my vote but the Intrigue's lower front fascia looked too cheap and down-market while the interior materials, although nice, were not durable. Unfortunately, most of Oldsmobile's renaissance interior materials didn't wear very well. The Aurora was the exception.

Not surprisingly, the Park Avenue is my favorite G-Platform vehicle, but closely followed by the 1st & 2nd gen-Auroras.

The 2008 DTS Platinum should win, but it's just not worth the asking price.

[The O.C.]

I believe H, K, C, & G are all designations used for the different variants of the same architecture that debuted with the 1st gen Aurora.

My Park Avenue is supposedly on the LWB Premium Version of the G-Platform but still carries a "C" platform designation in the VIN.

If I understand correctly, the true versions of G breakdown like this regardless of platform designation:

- 1st Gen Aurora & Buick Riviera - shared version

- Buick Park Avenue & Cadillac Seville - shared version

- Pontiac Bonneville, Buick LeSabre, 2nd Gen Aurora, Deville - shared version

- DTS & Lucerne - upgraded version of the one used by Pontiac Bonneville, Buick LeSabre, 2nd Gen Aurora, Deville

I think you about have it......however, I believe the Deville shared the Park Avenue platform.....and the Seville was related to the Bonne/LeS/Aurora (just trying to remember from my Buick days.)

Also, the latest-gen PA shared alot with the Aurora/Rivera.....so much that I think it could almost be lumped in with them.

And you are right. As opposed to the late-80's FWD big cars (C- and H-Bodies) all of these cars I believe belong more strongly to the G-Platform as a whole.

[The O.C.]

The 2008 DTS Platinum should win, but it's just not worth the asking price.

Another interesting note I found out while getting prepped to go to work at the Caddy store in Vegas is.......DTS really isn't considered a "flagship" Caddy, or really a "premium" Caddy.

The VAST majority of the DTSs that the stores sell are the cars with MSRPs from between $46K - $50K......not that far off from the CTSs that they now sell (their best-selling CTS is in the $43K - $46K range.

"Platinums" and loaded "Performance" variants simply don't sell. In general, People won't pay $55K + for a DTS. They don't see the value. Which is a shame because those two variants are probably the most attractive DTSs.

It's just simply not a flagship for the brand.

[Lamar]

Another interesting note I found out while getting prepped to go to work at the Caddy store in Vegas is.......DTS really isn't considered a "flagship" Caddy, or really a "premium" Caddy.

The VAST majority of the DTSs that the stores sell are the cars with MSRPs from between $46K - $50K......not that far off from the CTSs that they now sell (their best-selling CTS is in the $43K - $46K range.

"Platinums" and loaded "Performance" variants simply don't sell. In general, People won't pay $55K + for a DTS. They don't see the value. Which is a shame because those two variants are probably the most attractive DTSs.

It's just simply not a flagship for the brand.

For American vehicles, old-people mobiles don't generally get to enjoy flagship status. Case in point: Panther platform-mates, with the exception of the Town Car, and that's slated to change.

[Croc]

I think you about have it......however, I believe the Deville shared the Park Avenue platform.....and the Seville was related to the Bonne/LeS/Aurora (just trying to remember from my Buick days.)

Also, the latest-gen PA shared alot with the Aurora/Rivera.....so much that I think it could almost be lumped in with them.

And you are right. As opposed to the late-80's FWD big cars (C- and H-Bodies) all of these cars I believe belong more strongly to the G-Platform as a whole.

This was my impression as well, but over on the ACNA boards, some of the 1st Gen owners get nitpicky with some of the 2nd Gen owners about platforms based solely on the VIN.