GM RWD Update: FWD Impala remains, Zeta to merge with Sigma

[ZL-1]

From the ever-interesting Autoblog website:

GM RWD Update: FWD Impala remains, Zeta to merge with Sigma

Enjoy and discuss!

Edited May 6, 2008 by ZL-1

[black02]

From the ever-interesting Autoblog website:

GM RWD Update: FWD Impala remains, Zeta to merge with Sigma

Enjoy and discuss!

It makes a lot of sense. Why have two platforms for two cars of the same layout and size?

Put premium components into the premium car (better engine, more tech, lighter parts), and folks will be happy.

[ZL-1]

It makes a lot of sense. Why have two platforms for two cars of the same layout and size?

Put premium components into the premium car (better engine, more tech, lighter parts), and folks will be happy.

Yeah, I agree.

What I'd like to read about next is the gossip/power-struggle side of this: Who gets to develop this SigmaII/ZetaII thing? Will Cadillac and Holden collaborate, or will one of them get this and/or the Alpha development?

Edited May 6, 2008 by ZL-1

[ToniCipriani]

Why midsize Chevy on Zeta?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That's cool...

I'd like a RWD Impala, but oh well, this sounds great.

Lets hope the G8 coupe has better styling than the G8 we have now.

Edited May 6, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh wow... it's like GM is learning something from Ford. Take a premium platform <DEW98> and modify it with less expensive bits to make an inexpensive car <Mustang>.

[PurdueGuy]

Shall we call it Zigma? lol

[Drew Dowdell]

Smegmaz

wow... this thread went downhill fast.

[Blake Noble]

This is not a disagreeable decision. The consolidation of Sigma and Zeta in the future was always an inevitable possibility. It makes sense from a cost-perspective, as well.

Not to mention that there is the possibility of the ability to bolt-on some higher-end parts from the Cadillac models onto something like the NG G8 Coupe.

I also hope that this NG Global Rear-Drive Architecture (lets call it "Omega" shall we? :AH-HA_wink: ) allows for diesel and hybrid options and a combination of both options as well.

While it would have been nice to have a rear-drive Impala, I suppose if this front-drive model offers a different flavor and is larger in size in comparison to the Malibu, it could work out just fine. And there is always hope for a big rear-drive Chevrolet sedan (Caprice?).

[ZL-1]

Maybe I'm in a religious mood today, but this quote feels appropriate if indeed GM is working on having a small and a large RWD/AWD platform in the pipeline:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 22:13

Edited May 6, 2008 by ZL-1

[Northstar]

Maybe I'm in a religious mood today, but this quote feels appropriate if indeed GM is working on having a small and a large RWD/AWD platform in the pipeline:

Revelation 22:13

About a year or so ago AH-HA posted that, which was our first hint of Alpha. Perhaps it was the first hint of Omega, as well.

[ZL-1]

About a year or so ago AH-HA posted that, which was our first hint of Alpha. Perhaps it was the first hint of Omega, as well.

I remember, I remember. :AH-HA_wink:

[regfootball]

zeta has steel suspension components in the rear at least, if i am correct. can you say BRICK? no wonder its heavy.

[Oracle of Delphi]

GME and Cadillac are the best of friends, so you I think you should be able to tell who will develop it. :AH-HA_wink:

[Northstar]

GME and Cadillac are the best of friends, so you I think you should be able to tell who will develop it. :AH-HA_wink:

So next time around Holden will be using the platform that was developed elsewhere, rather than Holden developing a platform that is used elsewhere, as is the case now? So now Holden is just becoming another brand like Vauxhall... I guess that is ok provided the product from GME/GMNA is as good as it is from Holden. The change would make more sense to me if GME was already the one that did Zeta, though. Why change the global RWD homeroom from Holden to GME/GMNA if Holden is already doing a world-class job?

I don't see much difference between these two corporate structures:

1:

Global FWD (mini, small, mid): GME

Large trucks, SUVs, crossovers: GMNA

Small to mid-size trucks, SUVs, crossoovers: GMNA/GME

Global RWD (Alpha, Omega): Holden

2:

Global FWD (mini, small, mid): GME

Large trucks, SUVs, crossovers: GMNA

Small to mid-size trucks, SUVs, crossoovers: GMNA/GME

Global RWD (Alpha, Omega): GME/GMNA

You still have the same amount of platforms to develop, it would seem to me, and having more stuff done at one place (GME) seems like it spreads resources rather thinly, unless more people are hired/moved from Holden or elsewhere. It's not as if Holden currently has a RWD platform and GME has their own RWD platform of similar size and the two are going to be consolidated into one (in which case moving it to either GME or Holden would make sense). Just moving it for the sake of moving it seems unnecessary, especially considering the job Holden has done with RWD.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not so sure that this is really news.

We've known for a long time now that sigma was on its way out, and I believe that I've read that Zeta is actually the superior platform.

So, this might just be semantics rather than big news.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm not so sure that this is really news.

We've known for a long time now that sigma was on its way out, and I believe that I've read that Zeta is actually the superior platform.

So, this might just be semantics rather than big news.

If that were the case, then Sigma would just die. GME & especially Cadillac didn't want that to happen. Zeta being a superior platform, well that depends on who you talk to. It is cheaper to build though, I will say that. Sigma is the superior platform but cost to much to build. The logical solution was to merge the cheaper to build Holden platform with the superior Cadillac platform to get the unholy 3 way love child of (GME, GM Holden and Cadillac). Cadillac whispers in GME's ear to get what it wants or needs. GME listens to Cadillac because they need them to produce quality vehicles for Europe. Well at least it will be interesting to watch what happens. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

If that were the case, then Sigma would just die. GME & especially Cadillac didn't want that to happen. Zeta being a superior platform, well that depends on who you talk to. It is cheaper to build though, I will say that. Sigma is the superior platform but cost to much to build. The logical solution was to merge the cheaper to build Holden platform with the superior Cadillac platform to get the unholy 3 way love child of (GME, GM Holden and Cadillac). Cadillac whispers in GME's ear to get what it wants or needs. GME listens to Cadillac because they need them to produce quality vehicles for Europe. Well at least it will be interesting to watch what happens. :AH-HA_wink:

Sigma was history anyway - no way GM would keep both endlessly. This was an obvious thing years ago. The way I understand it, Sigma simply uses higher grade materials but the dynamics don't outdo Zeta.

Also, Zeta has already changed in the form of the version going under the Camaro, a form of the architecture that Holden will also soon adopt. So, I just don't see any news here.

Basically, sigma goes away and Zeta get a few expensive bits for the Caddy versions.

NBD.

The "merging" thing is just fluff for Caddy to keep that sense of being "exclusive" as it was with sigma.

What really matters now are the particulars on Alpha.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Sigma was history anyway - no way GM would keep both endlessly. This was an obvious thing years ago. The way I understand it, Sigma simply uses higher grade materials but the dynamics don't outdo Zeta.

Also, Zeta has already changed in the form of the version going under the Camaro, a form of the architecture that Holden will also soon adopt. So, I just don't see any news here.

Basically, sigma goes away and Zeta get a few expensive bits for the Caddy versions.

NBD.

The "merging" thing is just fluff for Caddy to keep that sense of being "exclusive" as it was with sigma.

What really matters now are the particulars on Alpha.

I think you might be surprised by how little Zeta there is in the new platform. It will be way less than you think.

As for Alpha, I don't see it being developed in OZ. I don't see a Pontiac version of Alpha either, however I do see a Chevrolet version of Alpha, the next generation of the Camaro should be Alpha if my Magic 8 ball is working correctly! :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

I think you might be surprised by how little Zeta there is in the new platform. It will be way less than you think.

As for Alpha, I don't see it being developed in OZ. I don't see a Pontiac version of Alpha either, however I do see a Chevrolet version of Alpha, the next generation of the Camaro should be Alpha if my Magic 8 ball is working correctly! :AH-HA_wink:

Not giving Alpha to Pontiac indicates non-functional brain cells in the heads of whatever execs are pushing such a silly agenda.

The next Camaro should be on Alpha though - perfect fit.

As for Zeta content in the new platform - that wasn't really what I was talking about. But, I'd venture a guess that little or no Sigma will be found there. Which is as it should be considering sigma's age.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not giving Alpha to Pontiac indicates non-functional brain cells in the heads of whatever execs are pushing such a silly agenda.

The next Camaro should be on Alpha though - perfect fit.

As for Zeta content in the new platform - that wasn't really what I was talking about. But, I'd venture a guess that little or no Sigma will be found there. Which is as it should be considering sigma's age.

That's because GM is about to rip Pontiac's RWD performance persona from the brand. You should be hearing more on that soon.

[Robert Hall]

Not giving Alpha to Pontiac indicates non-functional brain cells in the heads of whatever execs are pushing such a silly agenda.

I think no Alpha to Pontiac is because there probably won't be a Pontiac in BPG within 5 years..

[Blake Noble]

The important thing we have learned from this news is that there is a future for rear-drive vehicles at General Motors, after the expiration of the Zeta and Sigma platforms.

On a personal note, that is what really matters to me; seeing that great, globally competitive rear-drive vehicles do have a future at one of my favorite automakers. I would like to have the option of having at least one GM vehicle in my driveway for my lifetime.

I also believe that Holden engineers could (and I stress that word) be involved with Alpha and Omega and that they are not just being shut out for those two projects. I have noticed that the Australians from GM Holden are finding work with other projects, like the new Invicta. And when it comes to rear-drive vehicles, Holden engineers are a fountain of knowledge regarding the matter; they have developed Zeta's first realization, VE, and have re-engineered various top-end, rear-drive Opels since 1978 multiple times. They focused a lot of their efforts on rear-drive just as GMNA and GME were abandoning it. It does not make total sense to shut them out. It could (again, stress on that word) be that GM Holden, instead of being a major branch of GM like GMNA or GME, is being fully incorporated and integrated into the two current main powerhouses of General Motors, GMNA and GME, and the resources from GM Holden are being spread out between the two. Just a thought.

Edited May 7, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

That's because GM is about to rip Pontiac's RWD performance persona from the brand. You should be hearing more on that soon.

Even more stupid.

Brain death describes it perfectly.

[Camino LS6]

... and don't say buy a Cadillac instead - that will never happen.

Beyond stupid.

[wildcat]

That's because GM is about to rip Pontiac's RWD performance persona from the brand.

Are they giving it to another brand or merely taking it away from Pontiac?

Also, to anyone's knowledge, if the sales channel is Buick-Pontiac-GMC (B-P-G), why have recent TV commercials shown the Buick logo, then the GMC logo, then the Pontiac logo... seemingly out of order? Is that just a coincidence, or does it visually look better in that order, or is that a deliberate part of the plan to edge Pontiac out of the picture and replace it with the Saturn logo? I'm not trying to discuss minutiae, but it was enough for me to notice.

[balthazar]

>>"The consolidation of Sigma and Zeta in the future was always an inevitable possibility. It makes sense from a cost-perspective, as well. Not to mention that there is the possibility of the ability to bolt-on some higher-end parts from the Cadillac models onto something like the NG G8 Coupe."<<

What goes hand-in-hand with this sort of thing, inevitably, is the detractors case for 'they ride the same chassis- what's the point of both Cadillac and (other division 'zeta'). It's more than enough for some to wave the tried-n-true 'badge-engineered' banner high and frantically.

Homogenization only accomplishes one thing automotively: saving a few dollars in the short run.

Oh, and it makes restoration/parts hunting easier 30 years down the road...

[Blake Noble]

What goes hand-in-hand with this sort of thing, inevitably, is the detractors case for 'they ride the same chassis- what's the point of both Cadillac and (other division 'zeta'). It's more than enough for some to wave the tried-n-true 'badge-engineered' banner high and frantically.

I do not think that the Omega cars will be so extremely similar as to where a dissenter could enthusiastically wave their "badge-engineering" flags.

This will be platform-engineering, not badge-engineering. In a way, you could perhaps draw a small number of parallels between these upcoming Omega cars and the relationship between the old GM B-Body and D-Body cars, if I make sense here. The Cadillac Omega will not be the same car as the Buick Omega although they will be related.

Homogenization only accomplishes one thing automotively: saving a few dollars in the short run.

I said that, too, that it makes sense from a cost-perspective. So what are you trying to say here?

As long the Omega cars are not blatant re-badges of one another, I do not mind this example of platform homogenization one bit.

Oh, and it makes restoration/parts hunting easier 30 years down the road...

Yet another benefit of these Omega cars to be realized. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited May 7, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[daves87rs]

I think you might be surprised by how little Zeta there is in the new platform. It will be way less than you think.

As for Alpha, I don't see it being developed in OZ. I don't see a Pontiac version of Alpha either, however I do see a Chevrolet version of Alpha, the next generation of the Camaro should be Alpha if my Magic 8 ball is working correctly! :AH-HA_wink:

[daves87rs]

That's because GM is about to rip Pontiac's RWD performance persona from the brand. You should be hearing more on that soon.

I figured that....but why, PCS?

Are the little voices I hear (around here) telling me this is the end?

Also explains in which the ease of how GM could make it disappear......( how the current products could be moved around)

Edited May 7, 2008 by daves87rs

[Robert Hall]

I figured that....but why, PCS?

Are the little voices I hear (around here) telling me this is the end?

Also explains in which the ease of how GM could make it disappear......( how the current products could be moved around)

It's part of PCS's master plan to phase out Pontiac, I think...the 2nd gen G6 hasn't been announced, the Torrent will be replaced by the GMC Terrain, the G5 is just a Cobalt rebadge, and if the G8 lasts 3-4 years, then what next?

[SuperSport623]

the f@#king end.... what a shame... it really looks like the end.... Pontiac was the companion make to not only make it past a few years, but out live its "parent" company (Oakland)

it taeks almost nothing to throw pontiac a new life... but because of stupid interoffice personal vendettas within GM, ittl die

[wildcat]

if the G8 lasts 3-4 years

I believe that Pontiac_Custom-S predicted that the G8 would last 2 years max, to get it while one can.

[Robert Hall]

I believe that Pontiac_Custom-S predicted that the G8 would last 2 years max, to get it while one can.

if so.... by 2012, it will probably be Buick-Saturn-GMC. Sad, but inevitable at this point? (if the decision has already been made...).

Edited May 7, 2008 by moltar

[balthazar]

>>"I said that, too, that it makes sense from a cost-perspective. So what are you trying to say here?"<<

That saving a few bucks is the only positive thing; everything else about the situation is a negative. Cadillac gets more & more in common with non-Cadillacs- where is the benefit for Cadillac there, from a perception/image standpoint?

>>"This will be platform-engineering, not badge-engineering."<<

Oh; I know this and you know this... but the bashers are going to gloss right over this and say things like 'its just a Caddy grille on a chevy', and no matter how absurd, some will believe it. Northstar goes, Sigma goes... you know some idiots will start saying it...

[mustang84]

GM is retarded if they kill Pontiac. Absolutely retarded. I see far more new Pontiacs driven by my age group than Saturn...like 5x more. Two people from my studio just bought Grand Prixs, and G6's are all over the place here. I can't remember the last time I saw an Aura on the road, and the only Saturns I ever seem to see are the old Ions and L-series.

Christ almighty, Saturn is down almost 16% for the year despite new product. Pontiac is only down half of that and sells 8,000 more a month. So much money has been thrown into "re-imaging" Saturn, Olds and now possibly Pontiac getting the axe, and for what? In-the-toilet sales of the brand whose sole failed purpose was to be the "import fighter." Let's throw away 82 years of heritage for some Opel rebadges.

God, sometimes I just want to smack someone at GM.

Edited May 7, 2008 by mustang84

[Blake Noble]

That saving a few bucks is the only positive thing; everything else about the situation is a negative. Cadillac gets more & more in common with non-Cadillacs- where is the benefit for Cadillac there, from a perception/image standpoint?

Hmm ... think of the relationship between a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice and a 1987 Cadillac Brougham. I think the situation with the Cadillac Omegas in relation to lesser Omega cars will be similar.

Oh; I know this and you know this... but the bashers are going to gloss right over this and say things like 'its just a Caddy grille on a chevy', and no matter how absurd, some will believe it. Northstar goes, Sigma goes... you know some idiots will start saying it...

Hmm ... true.

But then again, you hear the same things about Lexus as well (i.e. "It's just a overpriced Toyota"). So it is not like such ignorance would be exclusive to Cadillac.

Edited May 7, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Robert Hall]

Hmm ... think of the relationship between a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice and a 1987 Cadillac Brougham. I think the situation with the Cadillac Omegas in relation to lesser Omega cars will be similar.

True.

What is this 'Omega'? Yet another rumoured new platform? First I've heard of it..

[Blake Noble]

What is this 'Omega'? Yet another rumoured new platform? First I've heard of it..

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. :AH-HA_wink:

I am calling this consolidated Sigma/Zeta platform "Omega" in regard to AH-HA's comment left here two years ago. And it sounds better than just referring to it as Sigma/Zeta. :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

I am calling this consolidated Sigma/Zeta platform "Omega" in regard to AH-HA's comment left here two years ago. And it sounds better than just referring to it as Sigma/Zeta. :AH-HA_wink:

Ah... ok.

[Lamar]

All of this over a Motor Trend article...

[Robert Hall]

All of this over a Motor Trend article...

Yeah, not the most reliable source...but if you consider all of PCS's ominious hints over the years (assuming he's not spreading disinformation,which he may well be), well, where there is smoke...

[Blake Noble]

Yeah, not the most reliable source...but if you consider all of PCS's ominious hints over the years (assuming he's not spreading disinformation,which he may well be), well, where there is smoke...

Agreed.

[Chazman]

Sigma was history anyway - no way GM would keep both endlessly. This was an obvious thing years ago. The way I understand it, Sigma simply uses higher grade materials but the dynamics don't outdo Zeta.

I had a chance to drive a G8 GT last week with the 19" wheels and performance package. Very nice car. Nicely balanced. Kind of reminds me of a modern day B-body Impala SS. I have nothing bad to say about it.

But the chassis dynamics of my CTS are far superior. The G8 was pleasant enough, but this particular Zeta made my Sigma chassis feel like a race car.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Chazman

[Lamar]

Yeah, not the most reliable source...but if you consider all of PCS's ominious hints over the years (assuming he's not spreading disinformation,which he may well be), well, where there is smoke...

... let's just see if there's fire. It may well be just Cheech and Chong.

[97regalGS]

perhaps the most telling sign of yet another hint that pontiac is doomed, is the reduced number and far more feeble cries of those that believe GM is better served with more brands than less.

there used to be outrage in large numbers. it seems that most people have accepted that Pontiac is on life-support and that it is only a matter of time before the plug is pulled.

it's sad, but it has to happen.

[Croc]

Meh, whatever. The biggest question is what about Canada. For some strange reason, they adore Pontiac.

[ZL-1]

Meh, whatever. The biggest question is what about Canada. For some strange reason, they adore Pontiac.

Perhaps they'll keep selling rebadged Chevrolets as Pontiacs in both Canada and Mexico.

Edited May 7, 2008 by ZL-1

[ehaase]

Are they giving it to another brand or merely taking it away from Pontiac?

I wouldn't be surprised if the only Alphas will be the next generation Camaro and the Cadillac. Would ocnblu be happy with a base level Camaro with a sub 2.0L 4 cylinder and a 6 speed manual instead of a similar Pontiac? There would probably be a V8 Camaro but it would be as exclusive to the Camaro as the M3 is to the 3 series.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pontiac ends up with just the Vibe and the G6/Epsilon II Malibu rebadge and maybe the Solstice.

I wouldn't be surprised if Buick ends up with just the Epsilon II LaCrosse, maybe a new Delta II sedan, and the Enclave.

[Camino LS6]

News of more RWD cars on two platforms should be good news, but someone has poisoned the well.

Castrating Pontiac is an absurd course of action.

If this does happen, I don't think I'll be able to forgive GM for it.