UAW Local 31 goes on strike against the Malibu and Aura at the Fairfax plant

[enzl]

Longtooth-

I have no dog in your fight, however, I'd like to know more about how the membership feels about VEBA and the fact that Union leadership will be sitting on that jar of pennies?

Other than that--it's a no win situation, and I'm not 'walking a mile' in either party's shoes...

[longtooth]

No, but some of us are genuinely concerned about the future of our country, and the auto industry has long been the backbone of industry in this country.

Thirty years ago when the Big 3 controlled 85% of the market, the UAW's power at least was evenly distributed and probably did not hurt any one company more than the other, since all 3 were tied to the same rules. As Iaccoca said in his first book, the only time he ever met anyone from GM or Chrysler (when he was at Ford) was during union negotiations.

What the UAW does not understand (or at least the common folk don't seem to) is that now the Big 2.5 only have 50% of the market - and that number is still dropping. So now when the UAW extorts its unreasonable 'compensations' from their employers, it is hurting their employers because now HALF the vehicles sold in this country are sourced from non- union shops who do not abide by the same union contracts.

But this isn't just limited to the UAW. Anyone who has worked at one company for 30 years, in one place, let alone in a union shop, has no idea what the real world is like. In reality, that is the challenge: these people feel they are 'entitled,' regardless of how it hurts their employer. In fact, I venture to say that in many cases, it is BECAUSE it hurts their employer that these workers are so intransigent. Revenge for some past perceived insults? I am not speaking about any one particular person, just unionized employees in general that I have met over the years.

Darwin must be rolling in his grave. If evolution was subject to union rules, we would probably be tadpoles somewhere in a swamp, arguing over which tadpole gets to grow appendages first.

So what? Smaller pie. Fewer workers. Make mine 'a la mode'.

[longtooth]

Longtooth-

I have no dog in your fight, however, I'd like to know more about how the membership feels about VEBA and the fact that Union leadership will be sitting on that jar of pennies?

Other than that--it's a no win situation, and I'm not 'walking a mile' in either party's shoes...

We are skeptical but highly evolved fatalists. Personally I've a contingency for the time between now and the beginning of my Medicaid. Pension default contingency also spun-off from the Employee Stock Ownership benefit circa the 1980's. My deceased wife insisted on additional protections for us as well as maximizing our contributions to the plan at the time. She insisted that we minimize our exposure to risk as much as possible.

[aldw]

At this point it may be better to let the Gordon Gekkos of the world eviscerate all the unions, for seeing some real structural change is much better than letting people feel entitled to perks while the majority get stiffed by comparison.

Edited May 10, 2008 by aldw

[The O.C.]

Why would I need be involved with that? Or you?

Uh....because....transplants building cars over here has had a significant impact on the automotive industry......?

Or are you so insular and self-absorbed with General Motors that you haven't had any interest on what's been happening over the last, oh, 20 years.....outside GM?

Do you have ANY idea what the "real world" is like out there in regards to our industry and what's happening? Do you have ANY idea why GM's market share has sunk to ~ 20%? Do you have ANY idea about any of the contributing factors leading to the very struggle your company is fighting?

Have you EVER worked for another company than General Motors? Or have you ever worked in <gasp> another industry from the auto industry? Or have you had that "union, line-worker" job your entire career?

I'm not dissing the "union, line-worker" job/career at all.......or dissing you......but there's a whole 'nuther world out there than what exists past your 8-5 day (or whatever shift you work) or my 8-5 day. I wonder if your outlook on this entire situation is something that's way more widespread than I had feared......keeping our heads buried in the sand won't do us a lick of good.......

The more knowledgeable about the industry that we all are, can only mean better for our company.....

[longtooth]

At this point it may be better to let the Gordon Gekkos of the world eviscerate all the unions, for seeing some real structural change is much better than letting people feel entitled to perks while the majority get stiffed by comparison.

Better a legion of 'Gecko' types. They'll be looking after my interests as well. The new hires will enjoy the fruits of those 'labors' Gecko endeavors to perform. That they will. :AH-HA_wink:

[longtooth]

Uh....because....transplants building cars over here has had a significant impact on the automotive industry......?

Or are you so insular and self-absorbed with General Motors that you haven't had any interest on what's been happening over the last, oh, 20 years.....outside GM?

Do you have ANY idea what the "real world" is like out there in regards to our industry and what's happening? Do you have ANY idea why GM's market share has sunk to ~ 20%? Do you have ANY idea about any of the contributing factors leading to the very struggle your company is fighting?

Have you EVER worked for another company than General Motors? Or have you ever worked in <gasp> another industry from the auto industry? Or have you had that "union, line-worker" job your entire career?

I'm not dissing the "union, line-worker" job/career at all.......or dissing you......but there's a whole 'nuther world out there than what exists past your 8-5 day (or whatever shift you work) or my 8-5 day. I wonder if your outlook on this entire situation is something that's way more widespread than I had feared......keeping our heads buried in the sand won't do us a lick of good.......

The more knowledgeable about the industry that we all are, can only mean better for our company.....

Nope. In at 18 and still going. Before that, longest 'tenured' position: Paperboy! ETR? (estimated time to retirement). Schooling through GM TAP. You?

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

I'm blown away. I want to believe you are yanking our chains, but I suspect you are not. If yours is any indication of the emotions on the factory floor, I almost (almost!) hope that GM and Ford go bankrupt so it can all be swept away and started anew.

On the other hand, I wonder how many of us would feel if we had the opportunity to retire at 50 with full pension and benefits? I have a friend that works security at one of the plants and he started out of highschool and will be in a position to retire by 52 or so and get paid $4,200 a month for the rest of his life to do nothing. I can't disagree that it sounds like a great plan, but with the billions that GM has had to pump into the fund, it annoys the sh%t out of me that GM has to pay this while the real competition (Toyota & Honda) don't.

It sounds to me like any actuarial analyst in Japan could have looked at these numbers 30 years ago and yelled BINGO! How could they have lost?

[longtooth]

I'm blown away. I want to believe you are yanking our chains, but I suspect you are not. If yours is any indication of the emotions on the factory floor, I almost (almost!) hope that GM and Ford go bankrupt so it can all be swept away and started anew.

On the other hand, I wonder how many of us would feel if we had the opportunity to retire at 50 with full pension and benefits? I have a friend that works security at one of the plants and he started out of highschool and will be in a position to retire by 52 or so and get paid $4,200 a month for the rest of his life to do nothing. I can't disagree that it sounds like a great plan, but with the billions that GM has had to pump into the fund, it annoys the sh%t out of me that GM has to pay this while the real competition (Toyota & Honda) don't.

It sounds to me like any actuarial analyst in Japan could have looked at these numbers 30 years ago and yelled BINGO! How could they have lost?

Why wouldn't GM go for it in terms of bankruptcy protection(s)? They've the cushion for a rebound courtesy of their Chinese partners/underwriters/sugar-daddies. But then again a solvent GM is the more attractive portal to North America via it's stable of established brands and sales network. Wait for the flood of mini-cars for low to middle-income consumers by way of the Asian connection. GM already courts and services the affluent market well enough and is improving it's position to warrant keeping the higher-end value-added vehicles in production here balanced with the demand. Trucks are still a commodity, and while building fewer of them, GM can anticipate and satisfy the diminished demand for those vans and light duty trucks enough so as to keep several factories in operation. GM: Global Monolith.

Edited May 10, 2008 by longtooth

[aldw]

If the corporate raiders could liquidate the pensions for these UAW yahoos, hell that would be a party worth throwing for reinvestment opportunities... :AH-HA_wink:

[longtooth]

If the corporate raiders could liquidate the pensions for these UAW yahoos, hell that would be a party worth throwing for reinvestment opportunities... :AH-HA_wink:

Yahoo. Feeble attempt yours is. Are you traditionally envious of pension-earners? Or just the UAW/GM hourly? Anyone in particular

[Oracle of Delphi]

Why wouldn't GM go for it in terms of bankruptcy protection(s)? They've the cushion for a rebound courtesy of their Chinese partners/underwriters/sugar-daddies. But then again a solvent GM is the more attractive portal to North America via it's stable of established brands and sales network. Wait for the flood of mini-cars for low to middle-income consumers by way of the Asian connection. GM already courts and services the affluent market well enough and is improving it's position to warrant keeping the higher-end value-added vehicles in production here balanced with the demand. Trucks are still a commodity, and while building fewer of them, GM can anticipate and satisfy the diminished demand for those vans and light duty trucks enough so as to keep several factories in operation. GM: Global Monolith.

I kind of like you longtooth, you can be the evil GM'er while I take a vacation. :AH-HA_wink:

[longtooth]

I kind of like you longtooth, you can be the evil GM'er while I take a vacation. :AH-HA_wink:

I'll try to hold myself to that standard you've set. Don't go too far...

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'll try to hold myself to that standard you've set. Don't go too far...

You flatter me Sir! :rotflmao:

[CARBIZ]

Why wouldn't GM go for it in terms of bankruptcy protection(s)? They've the cushion for a rebound courtesy of their Chinese partners/underwriters/sugar-daddies. But then again a solvent GM is the more attractive portal to North America via it's stable of established brands and sales network. Wait for the flood of mini-cars for low to middle-income consumers by way of the Asian connection. GM already courts and services the affluent market well enough and is improving it's position to warrant keeping the higher-end value-added vehicles in production here balanced with the demand. Trucks are still a commodity, and while building fewer of them, GM can anticipate and satisfy the diminished demand for those vans and light duty trucks enough so as to keep several factories in operation. GM: Global Monolith.

Okay, now you're starting to make me look rational!

You are setting your sights far too low, my friend. The Chinese are not under-writing General Motors, they are under writing the United States.

[daves87rs]

Okay, now you're starting to make me look rational!

You are setting your sights far too low, my friend. The Chinese are not under-writing General Motors, they are under writing the United States.

Yep.

[longtooth]

Okay, now you're starting to make me look rational!

You are setting your sights far too low, my friend. The Chinese are not under-writing General Motors, they are under writing the United States.

Winners all around. At last a tentative agreement.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's all about a sense of entitlement...

GM dies, but these people are still entitled to whatever they want.

I'll stop there so I don't offend.

[A Horse With No Name]

It really begs the question, though, of how the Transplants are seemingly doing so well......without unionized workers......

Or of how the big three do so well without Unions in Mexico.

I'll buy an American car built in America when the last UAW worker is laid off or fired...until that good luck.

Chris

[The O.C.]

Or of how the big three do so well without Unions in Mexico.

You know....I don't know if the Mexico plants have any sort of union or not.....but definitely a good point and one that I didn't even think of.....

[Oracle of Delphi]

You know....I don't know if the Mexico plants have any sort of union or not.....but definitely a good point and one that I didn't even think of.....

You didn't get this from me! GM provides housing for it's workers in Mexico.

Read the whole document, but on page 10 (150) it talks about housing.

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/tdrc/hearin...0/p12012100.pdf

Edited May 11, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[longtooth]

Or of how the big three do so well without Unions in Mexico.

I'll buy an American car built in America when the last UAW worker is laid off or fired...until that good luck.

Chris

Sustenance for your vigil.

[frogger]

Scratch those two cars off my consideration list

[aldw]

Yahoo. Feeble attempt yours is. Are you traditionally envious of pension-earners? Or just the UAW/GM hourly? Anyone in particular

Envious? Oh, nothing of the sort by any means, but any further words on my part wouldn't be able to fit this page for reasons more than one...

[A Horse With No Name]

Sustenance for your vigil.

I'll enjoy both of the tacos you provided while cruising around in my Toyota, thank you...

Seriously, I don't think it is the rank and file of Unions that I am so pissed at. It is the whole combative attitude of the car industry. My former neighbor was a labor negotiator for GM/Chevrolet for many years, served out the rest of his time at the Tonawanda Plant after he left Indiana. He had all kinds of tales of the crazy stuff that went on between the Union and GM.

My Wife's grandfather's brother was a very good guy and a UAW memeber...who just passed away at the age of 75 after putting in 33 years on the line at Ford.

I don't begrude an Honest days pay for an Honest days work...it's just the stupidity and the combativeness that bother me. That needs to stop.

Until then, it'll be an Astra, a Mexican built HHR, or an austrailian built G8 for me please.

Chris

[traumadog]

^^^ What do you think is the case in America today, when one of the most popular shows on TV declares a winner by figuring out who has screwed the others more effectively (Survivor - the ratings winner for 5/11/08)?

I mean, what's more emblematic of the "what's in it for me" culture in America than that?

And this is probably the same reason that GM/Ford/Chrysler can't duplicate Toyota's results, even though Toyota has openly shared their keireitsu philosophy.

Edited May 12, 2008 by traumadog

[CARBIZ]

^^^ What do you think is the case in America today, when one of the most popular shows on TV declares a winner by figuring out who has screwed the others more effectively (Survivor - the ratings winner for 5/11/08)?

I mean, what's more emblematic of the "what's in it for me" culture in America than that?

And this is probably the same reason that GM/Ford/Chrysler can't duplicate Toyota's results, even though Toyota has openly shared their keireitsu philosophy.

Excellent post!

[longtooth]

^^^ What do you think is the case in America today, when one of the most popular shows on TV declares a winner by figuring out who has screwed the others more effectively (Survivor - the ratings winner for 5/11/08)?

I mean, what's more emblematic of the "what's in it for me" culture in America than that?

And this is probably the same reason that GM/Ford/Chrysler can't duplicate Toyota's results, even though Toyota has openly shared their keireitsu philosophy.

Knowing what's in it for me having earned it. Sushi anyone?

[longtooth]

Young men and women working today, or those looking for work will not do as well in comparison with their parent's Generation.

The article is entitled "Here Come the Millennials".

A suggested read for what it says regarding income prospects for struggling 30-somethings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/opinion/13herbert.html

[CARBIZ]

I cannot say I disagree with the thrust of the article, but again, perhaps the blame or the causes of the fallout is another matter.

Is this the same generation that will spend $250 on an iPod, $120 on a pair of runners, $400 on a Xbox - and demand they deserve all of these?

I am from the end of the boomer generation, and I am told that my parents built our great countries. However, from where I sit, it appears to me that they may have built it, but it is my taxes that have had to pay for it. For you guys south of the border, it is Vietnam that younger people have been saddled with paying for in the '80s and '90s. For those of us in the Great White North, it is our very own universal medicaire and all the shiny public projects that were built in the '60s and '70s, plus the generous civil servant pensions and benefits doled out in the same period that are being paid for with my tax dollars. And your government has no idea how it is going to pay for Iraq, do they?

Maybe we have all set our expectations too high. Where is it written that Thall Shalt Enjoy Hedonistic Joy and Bliss Foreverafter? I hate playing the grandparent card, but my grandparents were quite happy with their 1,200 sq ft bungalow with no garage, no a/c, no built in vacuum, one car in the driveway and a 20" B&W TV. The difference between the expectations of my parents generation (born in the '40s) and my generation (born in the '60s) is striking.

There are so many factors involved in why our societies are changing that I cannot begin to count them. Free Trade is not to blame for all of them, although certainly mistakes have been made there. I honestly believe that the biggest mistakes our countries (Canada and the U.S.) have made over the past 50 years are almost entirely cultural. First, we have made the mistake of believing that everyone else wants to be just like us. Second, we have made the mistake of thinking that because of our successes in 'rescuing' Europe from itself (through NATO and the U.N and 2 world wars), we could transplant that success around the globe. Our failures in Africa, Asia and the Middle East are staggering. These people do not want to emulate us. In most cases, they want to be left alone. In some cases, they despise us. We are now paying for that hubris.

But most of all, we have to start believing in ourselves again. We must stop blaming the mistakes of our great-great grandparents and push ahead to the future. In the past, our two countries were made great by throwing open our doors to one and all, weloming them with open arms and inviting them to prosper along with us. Something insidious has crept into our culture over the past 20-30 years. A new-found cynicism? We stopped caring for our neighbors. Why is that? Is it because our neighbors are no longer 'like us?' I'm not sure, but we had better discover the answer soon, or in one or two more generations, we are going to be overwhelmed and, I dare say, absorbed.

[The O.C.]

There are so many factors involved in why our societies are changing that I cannot begin to count them. Free Trade is not to blame for all of them, although certainly mistakes have been made there. I honestly believe that the biggest mistakes our countries (Canada and the U.S.) have made over the past 50 years are almost entirely cultural.

Hell....I'm "only" 38 years old, and I've seen a massive cultural shift in the United States even in my lifetime.

Talking about teenagers today......compared to when I was a teenager in the mid-80's.......I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that today's kids feel. It's almost humorous. Like you said 'Biz.....the iPods, the cell phones (not just cell phones, but "fancy" cell phones), the video games, the laptops, time spent on the internet, time NOT spent outdoors being active, the drugs, the alcohol, the CARS that kids feel they deserve to drive. It's all gone quite a bit overboard.

And I don't so much blame the kids these days as I blame the parents. I think the parents are fundamentally where the cultural shift has taken place. Parents seem to be more absorbed with being "cool" to their kids...and being their kids "friends"...and not "upsetting" their kids than they are about being actual "Parents."

I seem to remember 10-15 years ago the rise of the "Time Out" replacing a good ole fashioned whack on the ass as "proper and appropriate" punishment. WTF? A Time Out? Are you friggin' kidding me? And your kid acts up in the grocery store? You can't even spank 'em or else someone will try to turn you into child-protective-services! That's just messed up man.

When I was a kid, if I acted up, I got smacked on the ass or the face even. But you know what? Whatever I did....I didn't do it again! Punishment for me was something to fear....and an incentive to do as I was told, and not act up. You think I'd have been worried about a "Time Out?" LOL, LOL. Well, I ended up growing up quite well-adjusted....no lasting after-effects from being spanked, for god's sake. Geez.

I grew up as a teenager in upscale suburbs of Oklahoma City and Dallas. My parents made good money. We lived in a big house. I was always well-provided for. But you know what? My first car wasn't a BMW, or an Acura, or a Mercedes-Benz given to me by my parents. They gave me the "leftover" 1980 Chevrolet Citation hatchback (my first love of GM!!!!) and they told me that, yes, they were "giving" me the car, but I had to maintain it from that point on.....and I had to learn about taking care of a car. And if I got to the point where I could sell it myself, and buy myself a newer car, then I could do that on my own.

Today, kids (and their parents) are more concerned that the kids "fit in" with their peers in school. Kids don't learn "life lessons" today. Kids don't know how to act as adults in the real world facing real challenges. And as a result, as the kids of the last decade or so get out there, culturally, they struggle. These are the kids today that are going to be running our country. Scary.

Sorry to take the thread off-course....but 'Biz had a good point and I really felt I wanted to elaborate.

Edited May 13, 2008 by The O.C.

[CARBIZ]

Hell....I'm "only" 38 years old, and I've seen a massive cultural shift in the United States even in my lifetime.

Talking about teenagers today......compared to when I was a teenager in the mid-80's.......I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that today's kids feel. It's almost humorous. Like you said 'Biz.....the iPods, the cell phones (not just cell phones, but "fancy" cell phones), the video games, the laptops, time spent on the internet, time NOT spent outdoors being active, the drugs, the alcohol, the CARS that kids feel they deserve to drive. It's all gone quite a bit overboard.

And I don't so much blame the kids these days as I blame the parents. I think the parents are fundamentally where the cultural shift has taken place. Parents seem to be more absorbed with being "cool" to their kids...and being their kids "friends"...and not "upsetting" their kids than they are about being actual "Parents."

I seem to remember 10-15 years ago the rise of the "Time Out" replacing a good ole fashioned whack on the ass as "proper and appropriate" punishment. WTF? A Time Out? Are you friggin' kidding me? And your kid acts up in the grocery store? You can't even spank 'em or else someone will try to turn you into child-protective-services! That's just messed up man.

When I was a kid, if I acted up, I got smacked on the ass or the face even. But you know what? Whatever I did....I didn't do it again! Punishment for me was something to fear....and an incentive to do as I was told, and not act up. You think I'd have been worried about a "Time Out?" LOL, LOL. Well, I ended up growing up quite well-adjusted....no lasting after-effects from being spanked, for god's sake. Geez.

I grew up as a teenager in upscale suburbs of Oklahoma City and Dallas. My parents made good money. We lived in a big house. I was always well-provided for. But you know what? My first car wasn't a BMW, or an Acura, or a Mercedes-Benz given to me by my parents. They gave me the "leftover" 1980 Chevrolet Citation hatchback (my first love of GM!!!!) and they told me that, yes, they were "giving" me the car, but I had to maintain it from that point on.....and I had to learn about taking care of a car. And if I got to the point where I could sell it myself, and buy myself a newer car, then I could do that on my own.

Today, kids (and their parents) are more concerned that the kids "fit in" with their peers in school. Kids don't learn "life lessons" today. Kids don't know how to act as adults in the real world facing real challenges. And as a result, as the kids of the last decade or so get out there, culturally, they struggle. These are the kids today that are going to be running our country. Scary.

Sorry to take the thread off-course....but 'Biz had a good point and I really felt I wanted to elaborate.

Hell, by today's standards, OC, you could probably sue your parents for mental hardship - they did, after all, give you a CITATION!

See what a difference 9 years of birth makes: my mother let me drive her '67 Newport, aka the Tremclad Special. No feeling of entitlement there! If I were you, I'd sue!

[The O.C.]

Hell, by today's standards, OC, you could probably sue your parents for mental hardship - they did, after all, give you a CITATION!

See what a difference 9 years of birth makes: my mother let me drive her '67 Newport, aka the Tremclad Special. No feeling of entitlement there! If I were you, I'd sue!

Ahhhh....but MY Citation had the 2.8L V6 with 115hp.....!!!!

It had the "rally" wheels and whitewalls. The first thing I did is flip the whitewalls inside-out...and black-spraypaint the whitewalls so you couldn't see them from underneath the car.....

It was gold, with the beige non-split bench seat, with a column shifter. And don't forget those innovative vertical radio and HVAC controls!!!!!!

[2QuickZ's]

Hell....I'm "only" 38 years old, and I've seen a massive cultural shift in the United States even in my lifetime.

Talking about teenagers today......compared to when I was a teenager in the mid-80's.......I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that today's kids feel. It's almost humorous. Like you said 'Biz.....the iPods, the cell phones (not just cell phones, but "fancy" cell phones), the video games, the laptops, time spent on the internet, time NOT spent outdoors being active, the drugs, the alcohol, the CARS that kids feel they deserve to drive. It's all gone quite a bit overboard.

And I don't so much blame the kids these days as I blame the parents. I think the parents are fundamentally where the cultural shift has taken place. Parents seem to be more absorbed with being "cool" to their kids...and being their kids "friends"...and not "upsetting" their kids than they are about being actual "Parents."

I seem to remember 10-15 years ago the rise of the "Time Out" replacing a good ole fashioned whack on the ass as "proper and appropriate" punishment. WTF? A Time Out? Are you friggin' kidding me? And your kid acts up in the grocery store? You can't even spank 'em or else someone will try to turn you into child-protective-services! That's just messed up man.

When I was a kid, if I acted up, I got smacked on the ass or the face even. But you know what? Whatever I did....I didn't do it again! Punishment for me was something to fear....and an incentive to do as I was told, and not act up. You think I'd have been worried about a "Time Out?" LOL, LOL. Well, I ended up growing up quite well-adjusted....no lasting after-effects from being spanked, for god's sake. Geez.

I grew up as a teenager in upscale suburbs of Oklahoma City and Dallas. My parents made good money. We lived in a big house. I was always well-provided for. But you know what? My first car wasn't a BMW, or an Acura, or a Mercedes-Benz given to me by my parents. They gave me the "leftover" 1980 Chevrolet Citation hatchback (my first love of GM!!!!) and they told me that, yes, they were "giving" me the car, but I had to maintain it from that point on.....and I had to learn about taking care of a car. And if I got to the point where I could sell it myself, and buy myself a newer car, then I could do that on my own.

Today, kids (and their parents) are more concerned that the kids "fit in" with their peers in school. Kids don't learn "life lessons" today. Kids don't know how to act as adults in the real world facing real challenges. And as a result, as the kids of the last decade or so get out there, culturally, they struggle. These are the kids today that are going to be running our country. Scary.

Sorry to take the thread off-course....but 'Biz had a good point and I really felt I wanted to elaborate.

Damn. I am a year or two younger then you but otherwise our upbringings sound largely the same. The only differences:

- I grew up in Michigan

- I was never slapped on the face that I can recall, though my mom had a hand cut out of plywood called "Mom's helping hand" that was used more than once. It sounds worse than it was because it wasn't sturdy enough to do any real damage. It mostly just hurt feelings.

- My first car was ..... are you ready for this? A 1983 Renault Alliance. My parents made me buy it but they did give me $1500 of the $2000 purchase price. My first real financial lesson in how the world worked was based on this car. When it was purchased, my Dad told me if I drove it a while and didn't like it, he would buy it from me. After about a year of ownership and $1000 of my money in repairs, I told him I wanted to sell it to him. He offered me $1000 for it. After that fiasco I went out and bought my first real car with my own money. It was a 1966 Chevelle with 58k original miles on it and it was all original except the 15" x 8" Corvette rally wheels and the under dash mounted stereo. My second real car was an all original 1972 Buick Skylark with 33k original, documented miles on it. My love affair with cars grew from those two cars.

[Robert Hall]

I can relate... I'm 37 (will be 38 in June), grew up between eastern Ohio and S. Florida. My first car was my folks' '84 Ford Escort diesel--52 hp and a 5spd manual..drove it in high school and college. I did drive their '85 Lincoln Town Car occasionally (like to prom and on dates).

My senior year in HS, my folks bought me a new '87 Mustang GT as an early graduation gift. I didn't take it to college, though, didn't want it to sit outside (it stayed at home in a heated garage and I drove it in the summer between semesters)...still have that car, only has 63k miles now.

(not that I felt more priveliged than my peers---my GT was one of 9 GTs or LX 5.0s in my senior class, which also had 4 IROCz, 3 Trans AM GTAs, a couple Monte SSes, a Buick Grand National, a couple BMW 3-series, and a Porsche 944..., out of a class of 64 students). We had a few kids with old cars also--a dark blue '68 Charger, red '68 Road Runner, 3-4 '65-66 Mustangs, a couple '68 Mustangs... it will be interesting to see if anyone still has their HS rides (my 20th reunion is in July).

Edited May 14, 2008 by moltar

[enzl]

I'm also about the same age...My first car was a Dodge Dart! (It was shortly replaced by an old Celica, with a stick so my bro couldn't drive it.)

My suspicion is that parents simply don't make the time to invest in their children, regardless of what they give them. As a parent, I'm painfully aware of how little free time I have---most of it is dedicated towards my time with my kids--and my wife isn't working while they're young, despite the fact it has crimped our style and budget somewhat.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that too many adults have a sense of entitlement because, as a society, we have become a nation that likes to blame someone, anyone for our own errors.

These Union guys are no different and no better. The fact that RW and co. had their salaries restored despite the piss-poor job being done must really burn some guys asses as well.

Again, blame for the Fairfax situation must fall squarely at the feet of those negotiating this labor deals. Management should have known better--GM couldn't afford this situation to arise, yet they did the expedient thing rather than the right thing.

[cletus8269]

I seem to remember 10-15 years ago the rise of the "Time Out" replacing a good ole fashioned whack on the ass as "proper and appropriate" punishment. WTF? A Time Out? Are you friggin' kidding me? And your kid acts up in the grocery store? You can't even spank 'em or else someone will try to turn you into child-protective-services! That's just messed up man.

when i worked at office depot through school there was a guy that worked there whos previous job was at a grocery store. there was a regular customer who did spank her kids in front of people when they misbehaved. he told me the funniest thing he hever saw was an arguement between that lady and another customer cause she spanked one of her kids. the woman threatend to call social services. Mike said the lady didnt skip a beat... held out her own cell phone and told the lady to call them cause she'd whoop them when they got here too. classic.

we had the "richie spoiled" kids too never forget there was a guy 2 grades ahead of me that got a 69 ss red camaro for his birthday/graduation. he raged that car out in a years time. he even went so far as to shut a garage door on the hood cause he said he didnt know it was that close. what a loser.

[regfootball]

Hell....I'm "only" 38 years old, and I've seen a massive cultural shift in the United States even in my lifetime.

Talking about teenagers today......compared to when I was a teenager in the mid-80's.......I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that today's kids feel. It's almost humorous. Like you said 'Biz.....the iPods, the cell phones (not just cell phones, but "fancy" cell phones), the video games, the laptops, time spent on the internet, time NOT spent outdoors being active, the drugs, the alcohol, the CARS that kids feel they deserve to drive. It's all gone quite a bit overboard.

And I don't so much blame the kids these days as I blame the parents. I think the parents are fundamentally where the cultural shift has taken place. Parents seem to be more absorbed with being "cool" to their kids...and being their kids "friends"...and not "upsetting" their kids than they are about being actual "Parents."

I seem to remember 10-15 years ago the rise of the "Time Out" replacing a good ole fashioned whack on the ass as "proper and appropriate" punishment. WTF? A Time Out? Are you friggin' kidding me? And your kid acts up in the grocery store? You can't even spank 'em or else someone will try to turn you into child-protective-services! That's just messed up man.

When I was a kid, if I acted up, I got smacked on the ass or the face even. But you know what? Whatever I did....I didn't do it again! Punishment for me was something to fear....and an incentive to do as I was told, and not act up. You think I'd have been worried about a "Time Out?" LOL, LOL. Well, I ended up growing up quite well-adjusted....no lasting after-effects from being spanked, for god's sake. Geez.

I grew up as a teenager in upscale suburbs of Oklahoma City and Dallas. My parents made good money. We lived in a big house. I was always well-provided for. But you know what? My first car wasn't a BMW, or an Acura, or a Mercedes-Benz given to me by my parents. They gave me the "leftover" 1980 Chevrolet Citation hatchback (my first love of GM!!!!) and they told me that, yes, they were "giving" me the car, but I had to maintain it from that point on.....and I had to learn about taking care of a car. And if I got to the point where I could sell it myself, and buy myself a newer car, then I could do that on my own.

Today, kids (and their parents) are more concerned that the kids "fit in" with their peers in school. Kids don't learn "life lessons" today. Kids don't know how to act as adults in the real world facing real challenges. And as a result, as the kids of the last decade or so get out there, culturally, they struggle. These are the kids today that are going to be running our country. Scary.

Sorry to take the thread off-course....but 'Biz had a good point and I really felt I wanted to elaborate.

all that absolutely needed to be said.

my wife's first cars were a trashed omni, a terrible citation, and a fairmont futura coupe

me? vegas, chevette's, trashed silverados and a buick century coupe. and then i graduated to my parents electra coupe.

kids today have it so easy and i want to smack a lot of them.

[Croc]

Hell....I'm "only" 38 years old, and I've seen a massive cultural shift in the United States even in my lifetime.

Talking about teenagers today......compared to when I was a teenager in the mid-80's.......I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that today's kids feel. It's almost humorous. Like you said 'Biz.....the iPods, the cell phones (not just cell phones, but "fancy" cell phones), the video games, the laptops, time spent on the internet, time NOT spent outdoors being active, the drugs, the alcohol, the CARS that kids feel they deserve to drive. It's all gone quite a bit overboard.

And I don't so much blame the kids these days as I blame the parents. I think the parents are fundamentally where the cultural shift has taken place. Parents seem to be more absorbed with being "cool" to their kids...and being their kids "friends"...and not "upsetting" their kids than they are about being actual "Parents."

I seem to remember 10-15 years ago the rise of the "Time Out" replacing a good ole fashioned whack on the ass as "proper and appropriate" punishment. WTF? A Time Out? Are you friggin' kidding me? And your kid acts up in the grocery store? You can't even spank 'em or else someone will try to turn you into child-protective-services! That's just messed up man.

When I was a kid, if I acted up, I got smacked on the ass or the face even. But you know what? Whatever I did....I didn't do it again! Punishment for me was something to fear....and an incentive to do as I was told, and not act up. You think I'd have been worried about a "Time Out?" LOL, LOL. Well, I ended up growing up quite well-adjusted....no lasting after-effects from being spanked, for god's sake. Geez.

I grew up as a teenager in upscale suburbs of Oklahoma City and Dallas. My parents made good money. We lived in a big house. I was always well-provided for. But you know what? My first car wasn't a BMW, or an Acura, or a Mercedes-Benz given to me by my parents. They gave me the "leftover" 1980 Chevrolet Citation hatchback (my first love of GM!!!!) and they told me that, yes, they were "giving" me the car, but I had to maintain it from that point on.....and I had to learn about taking care of a car. And if I got to the point where I could sell it myself, and buy myself a newer car, then I could do that on my own.

Today, kids (and their parents) are more concerned that the kids "fit in" with their peers in school. Kids don't learn "life lessons" today. Kids don't know how to act as adults in the real world facing real challenges. And as a result, as the kids of the last decade or so get out there, culturally, they struggle. These are the kids today that are going to be running our country. Scary.

Sorry to take the thread off-course....but 'Biz had a good point and I really felt I wanted to elaborate.

I don't agree. I think the problem is not a sense of entitlement, per se, but a total lack of awareness for people who might not have it as well off. You mention the phones and the cars, but there are very logical reasons for owning them, especially if one can afford it.

iPods aren't expensive, especially the cheap ones, and they pretty much replace walkmans and discmans. Cell phones are pretty much a safety issue. I know I got one when I got my license so I could call in cases of emergency. As for the blackberry and iPhone, yea, not necessary, but again I don't think they're over-the-top either. Many of my friends pay for at least portions of their data plans.

Drugs and alcohol are nothing new, my friend, and the computer pretty much replaces the hours of TV people used to watch.

Really, though, the problem is not with "having," but with forgetting the entire world isn't as privileged.

[Robert Hall]

I don't agree. I think the problem is not a sense of entitlement, per se, but a total lack of awareness for people who might not have it as well off. You mention the phones and the cars, but there are very logical reasons for owning them, especially if one can afford it.

iPods aren't expensive, especially the cheap ones, and they pretty much replace walkmans and discmans. Cell phones are pretty much a safety issue. I know I got one when I got my license so I could call in cases of emergency. As for the blackberry and iPhone, yea, not necessary, but again I don't think they're over-the-top either. Many of my friends pay for at least portions of their data plans.

Drugs and alcohol are nothing new, my friend, and the computer pretty much replaces the hours of TV people used to watch.

Really, though, the problem is not with "having," but with forgetting the entire world isn't as privileged.

True...things that may have been considered luxuries in past times are now viewed as the basics or totally mainstream... it's easy to forget that there are people out there (even in the US) that don't have those material items or services...

For example, I'll admit that I take for granted having things like a laptop, an iPod, a modern car with power everything, high speed internet, digital cable and HD, lots of local retail choice (multiple Targets, Wal Marts, etc, Best Buys, etc Starbucks every few blocks, oodles of restaurant choices), ---to me, these are perfectly ordinary, normal material details of upper middle class suburbia and not luxuries but the basics in my mind..but I know there are alot of people out there that don't have them (but I don't know such people, as I will admit that tend to only associate IRL with other tech industry folk like myself).

[A Horse With No Name]

I can trump ya'll...my first car was a 70 Chevelle....

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm 26 but I had a similar upbringing.

There was no time out in my house... There was a warning and then I got whacked on the ass or smacked on the mouth (Yes, I was as big of a smart ass back then as I am now )

Once I got older, my parents were even more authoritative. I was expected to behave a certain way and if I did, all went well and I had a lot of freedom. However, if I crossed the line, I was punished for it. (and I usually deserved it)

Now that I have my Psych degree, I can see the negative side of spanking. The argument is that 'physical violence' just makes the child angry and bitter towards the parents. However, I don't think it's the spanking that is the culprit, I think it's the reasoning behind the spanking. When my parents spanked me, I deserved it. I had usually done something that was inexcusable and they informed me of it. They didn't just hit me 'for no reason' or fail to explain why they were 'physically violent' with me. I DO NOT agree with the virtual spanking ban that is in place now. As a matter of fact, I'd like to whip some of these teenagers myself.

LOL... Here in the south we have a lot of 'yellow bell' bushes and in the spring the limbs are very flexible. I used to have to go break my own switch off of the yellow bells... Needless to say, all my parents usually had to do was tell me to go get a switch and I would straighten up. They hardly ever had to use them.

My first car was my '73 Camaro. My parents bought it for me but the conditions were 1) I had to get a job and pay them back for the car (which I did) and 2) If I acted stupid or received any sort of ticket, the car would be immediately sold. 3) Naturally, I was responsible for maintenance (Since I'm a car guy) unless something catastrophic happened, then they would help me out. (Old cars sometimes tend to break a young persons bank very quickly, so they helped me 'over the hump' a few times)

Kids these days scare me a little. But I think it's largely because of pop culture that they're 'screwed up'. Sure, the parents need to do a better job, but our culture has become so cynical and filthy that I don't think it's as simple as blaming mom and dad. There are SO many sources of negativity influencing our children these days. I'm just glad I was fortunate enough to have a great childhood before it got this bad.

:twocents:

Edited May 14, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[The O.C.]

Kids these days scare me a little. But I think it's largely because of pop culture that they're 'screwed up'. Sure, the parents need to do a better job, but our culture has become so cynical and filthy that I don't think it's as simple as blaming mom and dad. There are SO many sources of negativity influencing our children these days. I'm just glad I was fortunate enough to have a great childhood before it got this bad.

I think in many ways, however, if parents had done a better job raising their kids, the pop culture "influence" wouldn't mean nearly as much. Every generation has had it's own "negative" influences growing up, whether it's today's pop culture, or the "hippie" influences of the '60's, or anything in between.

And Croc, it is true that today's "necessities" have changed since when I, and many of us, grew up. But, today we have 12-year old kids text-messaging friends in class from their cell phones.....obviously they are not deemed necessarily simply for "emergency use" these days. Why does a 12-year old even have text-messaging enabled on his cell phone?

[ockgator]

Seems so far I'm the winner in the "first car" derby..... 63 Chevy C10, straight six and three on the tree, no A/C,the power steering was all the power in your arms, the right door flew open whenever it felt like it, primary color was "rust". For prom I got to use the 69 Dodge 3/4 ton truck... it had A/C (Dad sold the SWEEEEET 74 Caprice a week before prom)