GME to invest $9B in Opel

[Guest aatbloke]

I'm well aware how different the two markets are, but with regards to the quoted portion of your post, that Europeans like choice, the two markets are not different.

I was stating that Europeans like plenty of choice when it comes to engine and trim levels. Company car taxation drives a good deal of this too. It's a very dofferent market to the US, however I was not implying that Americans don't like choice.

[Guest aatbloke]

I guess it's that dry, no, parched British sense of humour at play here with aatbloke. If my Sheridan were here, he'd be appalled.

And yes, I realised before my first comment in this thread that Opel alone will not be trying to sell all those new models. GME is a development centre for certain platforms, just as Asia-Pacific and NA and Brasil are, I reckon. I was merely having an attempt at nose tweaking, as it were.

You're a pretty perceptive bloke. I was always intrigued in the States at DVD stores that British humour was actually given a small section all of its own. Given some of the reception I've received on here, I now understand why!

[Croc]

What's wrong with quoting McDonalds? Nothing snide I assure you - I'm not a teenager. In the States, McDonalds are ten-a-penny. Not so here. I was making an analogy with the availability of diesel at filling stations. It isn't a case of "always being right", but I won't post conjecture. In the real world, I could talk to umpteen car enthusiasts and my remarks would be pretty much stating the obvious; however not so on here. It's more to do with the fact that the kids on here are intimidated than anything to do with me.

HAHA I'm sorry, but you're either an egomaniac or grossly uninformed. You make such a big deal trying to "educate" Americans on the virtues on Europe, while simultaneously displaying a level of ignorance about America that is simply laughable. Don't play the "oh! I wasn't being snide, you're just intimidated/jealous/insecure!" card on me, buddy. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

So the obvious question based on your post is why you specifically target posting on this site if the umpteen car enthusiasts you could talk to would agree with every word you say? It surely isn't to engage in intelligent discourse because you brush off any poster on here as an "ignorant teenager" if their opinion differs from yours one bit. You are openly hostile and insulting to moderators. If we are such a miserable crowd to be around, why the hell do you keep coming back? Get a life...

[Guest aatbloke]

What a load of assumption!

No insecurity.

No criticism of my country enters into it ( I was simply born here afterall).

I'm not being defensive man! You simply don't get it - we have no need for diesel at every filling station here. There is no market to support such capital investment. One or two in any vicinity is more than enough to meet demand. And in rural areas, it isn't lacking as you seem to think, it is just distributed differently. Farmers have it delivered to the farm.

Diesel is never any farther from you than the nearest interstate highway (worst case scenario). This country's economic life depends upon truck transport, so diesel is the lifeblood that keeps it moving. Don't think of it in terms of the passenger car and you will begin to understand.

You should have discussed the topic with Americans while you were here to gain a more complete understanding of the use of diesel here. Nearly all trucks above the size of a Full-size "one-ton" in this country are diesel powered. They are literally everywhere in great numbers, and thus , so is diesel.

In my experience - and other Europeans I spoke with - it was a difference not to see diesel being made available at every single filling station, no matter how small or how rural. This is what I mean by "scant availability" when comparing the US with Europe. By European standards, "scant availability" holds true in comparison, even though by your standards it's fine to head to the nearest large filling station by a freeway. I do understand - legislatively, politically and aesthetically - the lack of diesel in passenger cars over there and the reasons why. Most Americans I talked to said they'd never considered ever buying a diesel car, but then again they were difficult to come across. As a result, a number said they wouldn't know where to get it locally.

I'm more than aware that diesel is used extensively there in large trucks, as is also the case throughout Europe.

I think this one has been trodden to death.

[Guest aatbloke]

HAHA I'm sorry, but you're either an egomaniac or grossly uninformed. You make such a big deal trying to "educate" Americans on the virtues on Europe, while simultaneously displaying a level of ignorance about America that is simply laughable. Don't play the "oh! I wasn't being snide, you're just intimidated/jealous/insecure!" card on me, buddy. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

So the obvious question based on your post is why you specifically target posting on this site if the umpteen car enthusiasts you could talk to would agree with every word you say? It surely isn't to engage in intelligent discourse because you brush off any poster on here as an "ignorant teenager" if their opinion differs from yours one bit. You are openly hostile and insulting to moderators. If we are such a miserable crowd to be around, why the hell do you keep coming back? Get a life...

I'm not trying to educate anyone, Americans or otherwise. I appreciate this is a US website, however this section of it deals with European companies and European cars. I've had plenty of experience of life in Europe and North America to know the differences in the car markets both there and here - as have many other people I know in the same position. I will say that by and large, there seems to be is a wealth of difference between the Americans I know and am friends with compared with many on on these boards, who seem to proclaim that Americans have to be the best at everything, and detest anything foreign (particularly if it's Japanese). I would put this down to different social circles between the likes of you and I, rather than differences in culture or nationality.

You do ask a very good question, why do I keep coming back? After all, you lot know everything - including such pearlers as the the Chevrolet Aveo being a modern supermini and it was apparently designed before the Honda Fit! If that's the standard of knowledge on offer here, I shouldn't want any part of it. Then there's another who insists that Vauxhall isn't even an active company. Furthermore, look at the pig ignorance on display when a British journalist crticised the Vauxhall Antara, which several of the posters here thought was American. A car engineered in Germany and designed and developed in Korea - and in the Antara's case, also built in Korea. Yet these posters blatantly pulled apart the entire British car industry as a result. Had a British person slandered the American car industry in the same fashion, you would have practically waged online nuclear war - and you know you would, too. And you have the gall to label me as an egomaniac?

Oh, and I'm not your "buddy" either. And get a life? Sorry mate, I wasn't surfing the internet on Saturday evening, I was in my local. But seriously Croc, with the greatest respect perhaps you and I shouldn't communicate further in the interests of keeping a positive vibe on the boards.

Edited May 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[ocnblu]

Captain Peacock, are you free?

[Guest aatbloke]

Captain Peacock, are you free?

I'm free!

I always thought the world of John Inman ever since I saw him in pantomime at Nottingham Theatre Royal as a kid! His recent passing was a big loss.

[regfootball]

138bhp for a C-segment 1.8 litre hatchback is more than ample, unless you're either going to spend 24 hours at Le Mans or you eat three squares a day at Burger King.

138hp is piss poor for 80mph cruising on US interstates, or good acceleration on suburban 4 lanes.

this aint tiny europe here and 138hp is too slow. end of discussion.

[Guest aatbloke]

138hp is piss poor for 80mph cruising on US interstates, or good acceleration on suburban 4 lanes.

this aint tiny europe here and 138hp is too slow. end of discussion.

Do a constant 80-90mph in many parts of the US and you'll be pulled over by a trio of state troopers. I myself was pulled over in West Virginia for doing 86mph, but because we had a rather nice friendly chat he recorded my speed as 79mph instead to avoid penalty points - but I still incurred a fine. In western Europe however, 80-90mph is far more commonplace on motorways and the police tend to concentrate more on lane discipline and safe distances between vehicles. That said, in Britain at least anything much over 90mph will be cause for a hefty fine, assuming you're not a stretch governed by speed cameras which are by definition a good deal less lenient. In any case, a 138bhp 1.8 in a C-segment car is perfectly ample for getting up to motorway speeds.

I agree, end of discussion.

Edited May 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Robert Hall]

Do a constant 80-90mph in many parts of the US and you'll be pulled over by a trio of state troopers. In western Europe, 80-90mph is far more commonplace on motorways and the police tend to concentrate more on lane discipline. 138bhp in a C-segment car is perfectly ample for getting up to motorway speeds.

Yes, end of discussion.

Whatever...in the reality of 75 mph freeways in many Western states, driving at a constant 80 mph is not unusual...I did it all the time in Colorado.

[Robert Hall]

138hp is piss poor for 80mph cruising on US interstates, or good acceleration on suburban 4 lanes.

this aint tiny europe here and 138hp is too slow. end of discussion.

I suspect 60-70% of GM's product line probably had less than 138hp (and was heavier) 20 years ago...

138hp in a compact hatchback is sufficient.

[SuperSport623]

maybe this area of New York is unusual, but diesel is everywhere.... almost every station has it... my dad had a fleet of tractor trailers, and it was never a challenge to find a station...

[Guest aatbloke]

Whatever...in the reality of 75 mph freeways in many Western states, driving at a constant 80 mph is not unusual...I did it all the time in Colorado.

And a constant 90mph?

[Robert Hall]

And a constant 90mph?

That would be unusual... anyway, with the congestion and traffic, 80+ is realistically only possible in the US between metro areas on 75mph freeways.

[Guest aatbloke]

I suspect 60-70% of GM's product line probably had less than 138hp (and was heavier) 20 years ago...

138hp in a compact hatchback is sufficient.

Exactly! When you consider that 20 years ago, the average 1.6 litre engine was developing 90bhp or so, and such cars were still plying the motorways at 80-90mph.

[Oracle of Delphi]

No, I won't chalk it up to humor (or humour). This isn't the first time he's retreated to making snide comments about McDonald's and Burger King when he's been corrected on something. He's got some issues with always being right.

Again we agree! :AH-HA_wink: He seems to have issues with teenagers too.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Guest aatbloke]

Again we agree! :AH-HA_wink: He seems to have issues with teenagers too.

At my age I don't actively socialise with teenagers.

[SuperSport623]

whats wrong with teenagers! we arent bad!!!

[SuperSport623]

whats wrong with teenagers! we arent bad!!!

[Guest aatbloke]

whats wrong with teenagers! we arent bad!!!

I used to be one - but when I was, I wouldn't hang out with someone in their forties!

[PurdueGuy]

Lesseee....

+ any US driver that can't find diesel... isn't looking. Someone who says "I don't even know where I would get it" has probably stood next to a pump with a green handle many, many times.

+ diesel could be a very minor inconvenience in the US, as the "scant supply" might require trying a second filling station to find it. Maybe that's overwhelming for someone who is used to it being at every station.

+ the phrase "scant supply" does bring to mind inadequate quantities, though I can see it working for being difficult to find. Could have been phrased better.

+ 138hp in the Astra is adequate... but not particularly fun.

+ aatbloke always has to have the last word, I suspect going without might cause his head to explode. I expect a reply as to why this is not the case.

Edited May 4, 2008 by PurdueGuy

[Oracle of Delphi]

At my age I don't actively socialise with teenagers.

Well it's a GM car forum, the whole purpose of it, is to socialize, as you put it, or interact and with other people. How else are the yougins (Texas term for youth) going to learn about the automotive past if it's not from old goats like you and I? Hmmmmmm? :AH-HA_wink:

Edited May 4, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Guest aatbloke]

+ aatbloke always has to have the last word, I suspect going without might cause his head to explode. I expect a reply as to why this is not the case.

We don't even know one another, and I'm sure we are both happy with that status quo.

Edited May 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

Well it's a GM car forum, the whole purpose of it, is to socialize, as you put it, or interact and with other people. How else are the yougins (Texas term for youth) going to learn about the automotive past if it's not from old goats like you and I? Hmmmmmm? :AH-HA_wink:

You and I congregate in different social circles by the sounds of things.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You and I congregate in different social circles by the sounds of things.

Very true, I'm not an elitist! :AH-HA_wink:

[Guest aatbloke]

+ 138hp in the Astra is adequate... but not particularly fun.

I could suggest many back roads in the heart of the English Midlands with tight twists and turns, uneven camber and offering grief to anyone who makes the slightest error of judgement. The chassis dynamics of the Astra - whilst not class-leading - are pretty good, and with 138bhp on tap would generate enough smiles to throw around on roads like these. If, however, your idea of fun involves a runway and a parachute attached to your derriere, then 138bhp may not be quite as thrilling.

[Guest aatbloke]

Very true, I'm not an elitist! :AH-HA_wink:

As they say, different strokes for different folks.

[Oracle of Delphi]

As they say, different strokes for different folks.

Be careful, they, would be the common folk!

[Guest aatbloke]

Be careful, they, would be the common folk!

How interesting. Whatever works in your part of the world. I'm quite happy in mine, thanks, so let's end this conversation.

Edited May 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Intrepidation]

It's like a soap opera but more entertaining.

[ZL-1]

It's like a soap opera but more entertaining.

[Croc]

I'm not trying to educate anyone, Americans or otherwise. I appreciate this is a US website, however this section of it deals with European companies and European cars. I've had plenty of experience of life in Europe and North America to know the differences in the car markets both there and here - as have many other people I know in the same position. I will say that by and large, there seems to be is a wealth of difference between the Americans I know and am friends with compared with many on on these boards, who seem to proclaim that Americans have to be the best at everything, and detest anything foreign (particularly if it's Japanese). I would put this down to different social circles between the likes of you and I, rather than differences in culture or nationality.

And this right here is why I take issue with most of your posts. Not only do you have the gall to be very patronizing in the way you post, but you love making sweeping generalizations about "Americans" and "social circles," especially when someone disagrees with you. Since you seem to know so much about me, what is my social circle? Please tell me, I'd love to know just how far beneath you I am .

Also, I'm really not sure where you get the idea I need to be lumped in with those on this site who are anti-Japanese. There are plenty of posts under my name that prove otherwise. Before you make generalizations about people, you should do your homework...it's pretty simple to do a board search of a members' posts.

You do ask a very good question, why do I keep coming back? After all, you lot know everything

"You lot" again...so which lot am I a part of?

- including such pearlers as the the Chevrolet Aveo being a modern supermini and it was apparently designed before the Honda Fit!

Show me where I've ever said anything like that.

If that's the standard of knowledge on offer here, I shouldn't want any part of it. Then there's another who insists that Vauxhall isn't even an active company.

Vauxhall isn't. It is a marketing division for General Motors, through which it consists of mostly RHD Opels and the occasional Holden-sourced auto. Holden is an active company, but is becoming less so...Vauxhall is not at all, hate to burst your bubble there.

Furthermore, look at the pig ignorance on display when a British journalist crticised the Vauxhall Antara, which several of the posters here thought was American. A car engineered in Germany and designed and developed in Korea - and in the Antara's case, also built in Korea.

No, it's very common knowledge on here that the Antara was sourced from Europe. We get the Saturn VUE, which if not everyone, the vast majority knows is sourced from abroad. Maybe you found one poster who didn't know, but the site as a whole is very aware as we were following the development of both the Antara and the GMDAT-designed Chevy Captiva.

Yet these posters blatantly pulled apart the entire British car industry as a result.

What British auto industry? Jaguar, Rover, Vauxhall, Rolls Royce, Bentley...all have been gobbled up by global acquisitions. Are you referring to suppliers? Foreign-owned design studios, like the ones that have pumped out some fantastic Cadillac designs in recent years?

Had a British person slandered the American car industry in the same fashion, you would have practically waged online nuclear war - and you know you would, too.

Well, I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but in that situation I would have laughed. The American auto industry may be in a decline, but it is still one of the most important industries to the economy. Until GM and Ford get gobbled up through global acquisitions, there really is no room to talk about the American industry in that manner. Pompous as you may think that sounds, it's the truth.

And you have the gall to label me as an egomaniac?

I don't have any gall--I said you are either grossly uninformed or an egomaniac. But judging as you always have to have the last word, and you never admit to being wrong about things where it has been clearly pointed out by others that you are ("scant availability" of diesel? Please...come to America and then try to tell me that)...it does not surprise me that you decided for yourself that I must have been calling you an egomaniac. Congrats, you proved my point.

Oh, and I'm not your "buddy" either. And get a life? Sorry mate, I wasn't surfing the internet on Saturday evening, I was in my local. :)But seriously Croc, with the greatest respect perhaps you and I shouldn't communicate further in the interests of keeping a positive vibe on the boards.

Well if I'm not your "buddy" then I'm certainly not your "mate." Please make up your mind. Don't read too much into my posting times--you still go out of your way to instigate arguments on an internet message board. And don't fret about my social life. It's not like I'm having meetings with professionals of my industry and making project proposal presentations for them or anything...or being heavily involved in several social organizations, or that I just came back from a film maker's party in Malibu, hosted by no less than one of the original members of Oingo Boingo...no since I made my post on a Saturday evening before jetting off to these obligations I clearly need to get a life

You maintain the negative vibe with many of the posters you interact with. If your posts weren't consistently dripping with disdain for the other people on these boards, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. That "greatest respect" part really has me in stitches. It's clearly apparent from the other replies in this thread that I'm not alone in feeling this way, and as one of the earliest members on this site, I'm not about to let it devolve into the petty ridiculousness that the TCC boards imploded into a few years back. If you want to post here, fine, post here. But don't be such an unpleasant personality on the board.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Croc

[ocnblu]

Croc was on the debate team, aatbloke, he doesn't come to a gunfight with a pocket knife. You're going to start feeling like "the only gay in the village" if you continue to bump heads here. An internet message board is a place where a person's age, or their "station" in life matter next to not if they deport themselves in a professional manner. Please continue to post here, but try not to peg us, you might find we're not so easy to stick in a box.

OMG, Oingo Boingo? I'm going to pass out right now! :AH-HA_wink:

[Croc]

It's not that I'm looking for a fight or anything, but I'm a very non-partisan car enthusiast, and I seriously resent being personally attacked and lumped in with Japanese-hating, American-centric posters on this board because I am clearly not one of them. And this is the last of what I am going to say on the matter. Last time I checked, this thread was supposed to be about GM's 9B Euro investment.

Ocn: Yes, Oingo Boingo. He was in it when they started, and worked on "Dead Man's Party," but left to get married and begin his professional music scoring career around the time they actually got famous. He's actually scored quite a few well-known movies and is a member of The Academy. It's pretty cool, he gets all the DVDs of the movies nominated for Oscars.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Croc

[Guest aatbloke]

Vauxhall isn't. It is a marketing division for General Motors, through which it consists of mostly RHD Opels and the occasional Holden-sourced auto. Holden is an active company, but is becoming less so...Vauxhall is not at all, hate to burst your bubble there

Vauxhall Motors Limited is an active limited company. It is a wholly-owned private subsidiary company of General Motors, which under UK company law means GM would only ever be legally financially responsible for the amount paid up on Vauxhall's issued share capital. It is registered at Companies House and it has its own board of directors headed by MD Bill Parfitt. Vauxhall itself has a further subsidiary company of its own - GMM Luton Ltd, formerly IBC and Bedford, which handles commercial vehicle production. It manufactures at two sites - Ellesmere Port (the Vectra and soon-to-be mk6 Astra) and Luton (Vivaro commercial vehicles). It has its own engineering centre in Luton. Both Vauxhall and Opel are essentially the same vehicle these days and have been since the Manta B bowed out in 1985, however much of the development is carried out at Opel by GME, which is responsible for overall product development and has been since 1978. Prior to that, Vauxhall and Opel shared the development but there was a good deal of differentiation in their products. Can you share your experiences with me when you last visited a Vauxhall site?

No, it's very common knowledge on here that the Antara was sourced from Europe. We get the Saturn VUE, which if not everyone, the vast majority knows is sourced from abroad. Maybe you found one poster who didn't know, but the site as a whole is very aware as we were following the development of both the Antara and the GMDAT-designed Chevy Captiva.

Perhaps you should visit the thread then and see what I was referring to, because it really was ridiculous. The Antara incidentally is sourced in Korea, not Europe.

What British auto industry? Jaguar, Rover, Vauxhall, Rolls Royce, Bentley...all have been gobbled up by global acquisitions. Are you referring to suppliers? Foreign-owned design studios, like the ones that have pumped out some fantastic Cadillac designs in recent years?

A country's car industry relates to companies involved in the design, development, engineering, manufacture and provision of a motor car, along with all the suppliers that feed into it. It does not solely relate to the domicile of the company or individuals who own the share certificates of those resident companies. Most of the companies in the British car industry these days are foreign-owned, however the car industry here is still very much alive: in 2007, 1.6 million cars were built in Britain, of which 70% or so were exported. In addition, one-quarter of a million commercial vehicles were built in Britain, and roughly 40% being exported. The disappearance of Rover had a significant impact, but the British car industry still employs the best part of a million people. Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Ford, GME and (until recently) PSA all build mainstream mass-produced passenger cars here. All this is British industry and it plays a pretty substantial part in driving the British economy, while healthy exports are pretty good for the country's balance of payments.

("scant availability" of diesel? Please...come to America and then try to tell me that).

I lived in Ohio for seven years. I was speaking comparatively with Europe, but clearly the remark, which I've found to harbour no problems with many people who have shared my situation in real life (as opposed to the internet) and have made similar observations, has caused great offence to a number of young male Americans on these boards - so I apologise for the offence caused.

You maintain the negative vibe with many of the posters you interact with. If your posts weren't consistently dripping with disdain for the other people on these boards, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. That "greatest respect" part really has me in stitches. It's clearly apparent from the other replies in this thread that I'm not alone in feeling this way, and as one of the earliest members on this site, I'm not about to let it devolve into the petty ridiculousness that the TCC boards imploded into a few years back. If you want to post here, fine, post here. But don't be such an unpleasant personality on the board.

I can assure you that I have no disdain for anybody on here - I don't even know them. I could walk past any of them in the street and be none the wiser. I do have many good American friends in the real world and I'm happy with that status quo; I don't need to make online friends on a message board. I'm sure the "greatest respect" part has you laughing but it's quite common language here - I think language and cultural differences are part of the problem here too. Quite honestly, I don't have to explain myself to you or anyone.

And don't fret about my social life.

LOL, trust me I don't!

Edited May 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[regfootball]

I suspect 60-70% of GM's product line probably had less than 138hp (and was heavier) 20 years ago...

138hp in a compact hatchback is sufficient.

138hp is not sufficient when your competitors are faster and the lack of oomph gets noticed in reviews and such.

the reality is at 75-80 you still need passing reserves, and many small cars are dangerous in this regard, trying to maintain pace with the rest of the traffic. Unless you're willing to wait for your slushbox to catch its breath before it decides to go or not, or if you're willing to become proficient at 6-3 or 6-4 redline downshifts.

any small car in the 2800-3100 lb range with less than about 160hp will be fine up til intown four lane speeds (50-55 mph) after which it really is a liability....the only exception I've really noticed is the big GM ecotecs (2.2, 2.4) seem to have a torque reserve in the midrange that when paired with a stick, seem to not be at risk for rear bumper bashing from others.

[Guest aatbloke]

138hp is not sufficient when your competitors are faster and the lack of oomph gets noticed in reviews and such.

the reality is at 75-80 you still need passing reserves, and many small cars are dangerous in this regard, trying to maintain pace with the rest of the traffic.

That definitely isn't the case here - the Focus 1.8 generates some 122bhp, the Mitsubishi Lancer's 1.8 is all-new and develops 142bhp, and the majority of 1.6's these days output in the range of 100-130bhp. On European motorways these engines cope more than adequately with accelerating to motorway speeds, and American motorway driving is neither generally any faster-accelerating or faster-cruising than it is here. Any modern 1.6 or 1.8 can easily cope with passing at 75-80mph. My old 1987 Fiat Uno 1.1 with its miserly 62bhp had no problem with that, either.

What's more important than power is power-to-weight.

[cyclonic]

It's like a soap opera but more entertaining.

I even brought along a few bags of chips and cartons of beer! I'll just push in a few old couches, get the BBQ fired up and we're set.

Nice to see a large investment in Opel. Now, if we can get a performance oriented diesel hatch/sedan/coupe, i'd be very happy.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Because GME is the tail that wags the GM dog!

Or, just like in the 90s, GMNA is whoring out GME for development purposes.

Remember when Opel thrived? Remember when GM milked it for all it was worth? History does indeed repeat itself.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You know cyclonic as much as I dislike Holden and the way they do things, they do produce their own product, unlike Vauxhall which are rebadged Opels with a Holden mixed in for good measure. In that regard, Holden has my respect. Opel says jump, Vauxhall asks how high? Not so with Holden, not even when GM says jump!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Or, just like in the 90s, GMNA is whoring out GME for development purposes.

Remember when Opel thrived? Remember when GM milked it for all it was worth? History does indeed repeat itself.

Not this time, CPF will soon take Lutz' place, we in GME are already singing "Under my Thumb". :AH-HA_wink:

[Blake Noble]

Not this time, CPF will soon take Lutz' place, we in GME are already singing "Under my Thumb". :AH-HA_wink:

If Mr. Forster can keep the balance between the GM Design and GM Engineering departments in the position it is in right now (which I do not see why he would not anyway) then tell him that I wish him good luck in his new position when it is appointed to him.

[wildcat]

Not this time, CPF will soon take Lutz' place:AH-HA_wink:

Define "soon."

[Guest aatbloke]

You know cyclonic as much as I dislike Holden and the way they do things, they do produce their own product, unlike Vauxhall which are rebadged Opels with a Holden mixed in for good measure. In that regard, Holden has my respect. Opel says jump, Vauxhall asks how high? Not so with Holden, not even when GM says jump!

How many Holden Barinas have you owned in your time?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Why would I want to?

[Guest aatbloke]

Why would I want to?

How many Barinas have you owned? Or more to the point, how many have you ever driven? If so, which versions? How did you find them to drive? Or how about the Holden Astra mk4's built at Ellesmere Port? How many? Given you're the apparent Cheers & Gears GME "expert", I'm interested in comparing notes with you.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Hmmm, let's see, I think the 1st Holden Astra I drove was in 1998 or so, it was called at that time the Holden TS Astra. Nothing to write home about. I've driven many Barinas since 2005 all GMDAT sourced which by the way Holden controls GMDAT. I did drive the previous Holden Barina around 1994 or so sourced from Spain 1.2 liter, I think I could have walked faster but none from Ellsmere Port, in the lovely town of Cheshire, they seem to have a lot of quality issues.

Besides, I rather my Opel's be German, after all, that's what I am. :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Define "soon."

Before I retire! :AH-HA_wink:

[Guest aatbloke]

Hmmm, let's see, I think the 1st Holden Astra I drove was in 1998 or so, it was called at that time the Holden TS Astra. Nothing to write home about. I've driven many Barinas since 2005 all GMDAT sourced which by the way Holden controls GMDAT. I did drive the previous Holden Barina around 1994 or so sourced from Spain 1.2 liter, I think I could have walked faster but none from Ellsmere Port, in the lovely town of Cheshire, they seem to have a lot of quality issues.

Besides, I rather my Opel's be German, after all, that's what I am. :AH-HA_wink:

Indeed the latest Barina is basically a rebadged Kalos, so I was wondering how you compared it with the previous rebadged Corsa. A staggering step backwards in my experience of both cars. Didn't you find the pedals too close together in the Corsa B? I always quipped it was designed for short women. As I'm sure you're aware, neither the Corsa nor the Barina variant were built at Ellesmere Port. The 1.2 wasn't a bad engine, it was average for any engine of that ilk at the time, and definitely more sprightly than the 1.1 in the BE13 Fiesta.

So like me, you found the mk 4 Astra dull in the handling department? The load sill was a good deal better than the mk 3 don't you think and more capacious overall? Yes, I'm aware that Holden use twin-alphabet characters to designate each generation. It's news to me that Holden controls GM-DAT; I'm curious as to the corporate structure involved there if that's indeed the case.

Ellesmere Port by the way is a town; Cheshire is just the county it happens to be in.

Edited May 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

Besides, I rather my Opel's be German, after all, that's what I am. :AH-HA_wink:

Interesting that the vast majority of the German school system teaches British English though eh? I trust you found yourself fortunate to be taught at one which doesn't?