Toyota tops GM in first quarter global sales

[andy82471]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/toyo...mp;siteid=yhoof

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Toyota Motor Corp., in what many analysts believe will soon mark a long-term shift in the automotive hierarchy, wrestled the global sales crown away from General Motors Corp. through the first three months of the year.

Toyota (TM:toyota motor corp sp adr rep2com

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4:00pm 04/24/2008

GM 22.11, +1.17, +5.6%) , however, said sales fell less than 1% from the year-ago period to 2.25 million vehicles.

Toyota led GM after the first quarter in 2007, as well, only to miss out on unseating the reigning 77-year global sales leader by a few thousand vehicles by year's end.

Both automakers pointed to strength in emerging markets for helping bolster results in the face of the downturn in the U.S., the world's biggest car market.

"While the challenges of the U.S. economy continue to put pressure on the automotive industry there, we saw nearly 20% growth in the Latin America, Africa and Middle East and 6% growth in the Asia Pacific region," John Middlebrook, GM vice president, said.

The two rivals provided further evidence of just how bad the U.S. market has become when they posted double-digit declines in March sales. GM sold 19% fewer cars in trucks during the month, while Toyota reported an uncharacteristic 10% drop. See full story.

Record highs for gas prices have rattled U.S. consumers who are already struggling to cope with slumping home values and the related credit crisis. The combination of negative factors is expected to result in the worst year of U.S. sales since the early 1990s.

China, the No. 2 market behind the U.S., has become a key battleground as the fight for the worldwide title heats up. GM plans to spend $1 billion a year to expand its operations in the emerging car market while Toyota aims to grow sales by 40% this year.

Executives form both sides have consistently downplayed the importance being No. 1. GM sales analyst Mike DiGiovanni told analysts and reporters that he expected Toyota to grab an early lead this year and reiterated the company's stance after the results.

"We obviously want to win...and we're going to compete hard for every sale to try to do that," he said in a conference call. "But really our focus right now is on profitable, sustainable growth across the entire world and we're doing well in three regions."

GM shares rose 2.1% to close at $20.94, while Toyota saw its stock drop less than 1% to $100.18.

Shawn Langlois is a reporter for MarketWatch, and the editor of its community message boards.

[CARBIZ]

I read the same crap in the National Post today. Gee, aren't stats fun? Which is greater: if I have 3 hemorroids and have a 40% increase, that gives me 4.2 hemmoroids, or a 6% increase in the 350 zits I have? (Yeah, I know that isn't how you spell hemmoroids - this article isn't worth looking it up.)

I hate f$%king analysts. If I stand in the middle of a busy intersection and yell, "Somebody's going to die," long enough I would eventually be proven right.

[loki]

I read the same crap in the National Post today. Gee, aren't stats fun? Which is greater: if I have 3 hemorroids and have a 40% increase, that gives me 4.2 hemmoroids, or a 6% increase in the 350 zits I have? (Yeah, I know that isn't how you spell hemmoroids - this article isn't worth looking it up.)

I hate f$%king analysts. If I stand in the middle of a busy intersection and yell, "Somebody's going to die," long enough I would eventually be proven right.

or you could imagine yelling and you are right. some Schrödinger's cat for you?

Schrödinger - i only spelled right because it was spell checked. babaBABOOYAH! LOL

[Guest aatbloke]

I read the same crap in the National Post today. Gee, aren't stats fun? Which is greater: if I have 3 hemorroids and have a 40% increase, that gives me 4.2 hemmoroids, or a 6% increase in the 350 zits I have? (Yeah, I know that isn't how you spell hemmoroids - this article isn't worth looking it up.)

I hate f$%king analysts. If I stand in the middle of a busy intersection and yell, "Somebody's going to die," long enough I would eventually be proven right.

You seem to detest everyone who happens to have an education.

[Camino LS6]

This will be a back and forth struggle for years to come.

One quarter is meaningless.

[andy82471]

This will be a back and forth struggle for years to come.

One quarter is meaningless.

Maybe, but Toyota was ahead by only 30,000 vehicle at the end of first quarter of 07. This quarter they are ahead by 160,000 vehicle. I doubt GM will be able to close the gap this year.

[Camino LS6]

Maybe, but Toyota was ahead by only 30,000 vehicle at the end of first quarter of 07. This quarter they are ahead by 160,000 vehicle. I doubt GM will be able to close the gap this year.

Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think a gap of meaningful proportions will open between them any time soon - no matter who is "in the lead" in a given year.

Still, if GM's winning streak comes to an end at 77 years, it will never be topped. Automobiles as we know them will cease to exist before that could happen.

Decent lifetime record if you ask me.

[Guest aatbloke]

Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think a gap of meaningful proportions will open between them any time soon - no matter who is "in the lead" in a given year.

Still, if GM's winning streak comes to an end at 77 years, it will never be topped. Automobiles as we know them will cease to exist before that could happen.

Decent lifetime record if you ask me.

As if that in itself really matters. It's an extraordinary feat to build a business the size of either General Motors or Toyota. Both have built a variety of products, good and bad; both have been the subject of praise and ridicule; and both have made good and bad business decisions. Neither are perfect, but both are extraordinarily successful.

It takes only a professional of one of these corporations to not only understand the other, but also to take the other seriously, and to extend the other praise where it's due as well.

Edited April 30, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

As if that in itself really matters. It's an extraordinary feat to build a business the size of either General Motors or Toyota. Both have built a variety of products, good and bad; both have been the subject of praise and ridicule; and both have made good and bad business decisions. Neither are perfect, but both are extraordinarily successful.

It takes only a professional of one of these corporations to not only understand the other, but also to take the other seriously, and to extend the other praise where it's due as well.

No offense intended, but what are you talking about?

[CARBIZ]

You seem to detest everyone who happens to have an education.

No, just people who think they are smarter than everyone else.

[CARBIZ]

No offense intended, but what are you talking about?

His condescension knows no bounds. He is telling us that he is smarter than us because he is 'man' enough to praise Toyota.

[Guest aatbloke]

No, just people who think they are smarter than everyone else.

Considering you don't even know how a corporation is structured, I think you have little room to talk. Whatsmore, your constant remarks that "accountants and lawyers only muddy waters" only tells me that you have a serious complex. I don't care what you are, who you are, where you are or what you do, but I personally have no time for anyone who puts down others based on their vocation.

Edited April 30, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

His condescension knows no bounds. He is telling us that he is smarter than us because he is 'man' enough to praise Toyota.

Not at all - I'm just not childish enough to simply slag off one company just because I'm enthusiastic about the products of another. It's pathetic. I've been to enough car shows - both concours and custom - over the years to know that real brand enthusiasts at the very least have an appreciation of their competitors. Then again, I wonder how many real brand enthusiasts there are here, as opposed to kids and teenagers with no experience of life who simply want to use the forums as a means of releasing blind jingoism.

Edited April 30, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

No offense intended, but what are you talking about?

If you can't work that out for yourself mate, then I'm truly sorry.

Edited April 30, 2008 by aatbloke

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

You seem to detest everyone who happens to have an education.

OH MY GOD! Are you still here? Every time I log on to Cheers and Gears, I see the same people making personal attacks. Why, oh why would people want to bother posting on a GM fan site if they only live to provoke people?

Every time someone makes a personal observation, certain people go on the defensive. Even 'kids and teenagers' are entitled to their opinons. Constantly making personal attacks on people is not going to win any arguments.

I also don't have a lot of respect for analysts. On a slow news day, they will dig up whatever stale news that they can to fill their broadsheets. 'Oh, look. Toyota has beat General Motors again!' I am tired of this Chicken Little Syndrome. Too many people put too much trust in what lawyers and accountants say, but we are beginning to discover that a large minority of them are crooks, or at least have their own agendas at heart.

We can have a civil discourse without attacking members.

Especially when you (and I) are new on this site.

[enzl]

OH MY GOD! Are you still here? Every time I log on to Cheers and Gears, I see the same people making personal attacks. Why, oh why would people want to bother posting on a GM fan site if they only live to provoke people?

Every time someone makes a personal observation, certain people go on the defensive. Even 'kids and teenagers' are entitled to their opinons. Constantly making personal attacks on people is not going to win any arguments.

I also don't have a lot of respect for analysts. On a slow news day, they will dig up whatever stale news that they can to fill their broadsheets. 'Oh, look. Toyota has beat General Motors again!' I am tired of this Chicken Little Syndrome. Too many people put too much trust in what lawyers and accountants say, but we are beginning to discover that a large minority of them are crooks, or at least have their own agendas at heart.

We can have a civil discourse without attacking members.

Especially when you (and I) are new on this site.

Agreed...but it appears that the personal stuff generally happens because the poster(s) don't tow the party line here...but a little civility could go a long way to making the discourse better, regardless of POV.

[ZL-1]

Considering you don't even know how a corporation is structured, I think you have little room to talk. Whatsmore, your constant remarks that "accountants and lawyers only muddy waters" only tells me that you have a serious complex. I don't care what you are, who you are, where you are or what you do, but I personally have no time for anyone who puts down others based on their vocation.

Speaking of Accountants, are you ACCA? CIMA?

[Guest aatbloke]

Speaking of Accountants, are you ACCA? CIMA?

FCA.

[Guest aatbloke]

OH MY GOD! Are you still here? Every time I log on to Cheers and Gears, I see the same people making personal attacks. Why, oh why would people want to bother posting on a GM fan site if they only live to provoke people?

Every time someone makes a personal observation, certain people go on the defensive. Even 'kids and teenagers' are entitled to their opinons. Constantly making personal attacks on people is not going to win any arguments.

I also don't have a lot of respect for analysts. On a slow news day, they will dig up whatever stale news that they can to fill their broadsheets. 'Oh, look. Toyota has beat General Motors again!' I am tired of this Chicken Little Syndrome. Too many people put too much trust in what lawyers and accountants say, but we are beginning to discover that a large minority of them are crooks, or at least have their own agendas at heart.

We can have a civil discourse without attacking members.

Especially when you (and I) are new on this site.

You really think it's clever to denounce Toyota or any motor manufacturer for that matter? Real car enthusiasts - and especially those who favour a particular marque - don't denounce the competition. I've seen American car forums which blatantly spout hatred towards the Japanese - behaviour towards other cultures which, strangely enough, the US military is currently attempting to overcome. Why bother having a forum section devoted to "the competition" if all it's used for is a vehicle to criticise them at every opportunity, whether it's in reaction to their success or failure? "Civil discourse" seems to quickly run out of steam on most threads regarding Toyota in particular.

If you're stupid enough to believe everything the media says, then you need to get a life. They're out to sell stories, nothing more. Sales figures speak for themselves. If GM sells more than Toyota, that's great for the car industry. If Toyota beats GM, that's great for the industry too. If there's no competition, the industry will never progress forward.

I'm not a GM fan - I'm a car fan. I've owned a number of GM products in the past, including a superb straight-six '86 Opel Senator with a truly bombproof engine as heralded by police forces across Europe at the time. Its electrics left something to be desired, yet it was one of my favourite cars I've ever owned. But just because I loved that car doesn't mean I'd slag off its competitors from any other manufacturer, because that's just childish.

I will agree with you about attacking members - CARBIZ had no right making statements about me to begin with. He has issues with people from professional backgrounds, and he's demonstrated that time and time again. But there's a difference between "attacking forum members" and "attacking GM enthusiasts", isn't there? After all, we all know Orwell's Animal Farm all too well.

As for being new to the site - I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll wait two years and say the same thing. Now doesn't that sound sensible? On the other hand, perhaps someone can tell me the purpose of these forums: if it's a case of "we love GM, but respect everyone else too" then that's fine, I'm enthusiastic about that. If, however, it's a case of "we love GM, we're the best but everyone else sucks bollocks" then I'm out of here and I'll find a car forum with mature car enthusiasts instead.

Edited April 30, 2008 by aatbloke

[cletus8269]

umm... unless there is a post that has been deleted.. i think carbiz got chimed in on first. as far as toyota beating GM good for them hooray... now maybe all the hecklers will turn their eyes upon number 1 and gm can stop worrying so much about the press for a change. (wishfull thinking im sure)

[ZL-1]

FCA.

I didn't know about that one. Is that a UK designation?

Re your other post, I don't think you should leave. I like seeing people who follow the industry as professionals here: it brings a degree of rationality to the forums.

Edited April 30, 2008 by ZL-1

[Guest aatbloke]

I didn't know about that one. Is that a UK designation?

Re your other post, I don't think you should leave. I like seeing people who follow the industry as professionals here: it brings a degree of rationality to the forums.

Yes there are five major professional bodies here - ACA, ACCA, CIMA, CIPFA and ATII (tax). I appreciate the kind words!

[CARBIZ]

I'm done with this thread. I am going to take the high road and ignore a newbie.

My record speaks for itself. I am in the car business. I have been for 11 years. I ran my own corporation (two, actually) for 11 years before that. I have been posting on C&G for just over 3 years now. Those who have been on this site for that long (or longer) know my impatience with analysts and the media, in particular. We are being over analysed to death. Big Business is paralysed with analysis. There is no ACTION because everyone is too busy studying what should be done, or shoving it off to committees. This is why I respect Wagoner for bringing Lutz on board. The auto industry (particularly in North America) needs a big dose of personality to get things DONE.

If certain people take my distrust of accountants and lawyers personally, I am sorry. However, Enron and other scandals only point to the fact that highly educated people with integrity can be sucked into a blackened void by figures and statistics because those figures can be distorted to show whatever the hell the Agenda of the Week wishes to show. Most of the rules and regulations are a hundred years old and need to be thrown out. The world today does not need to be as complicated as these professionals would like us to believe it must be, but then it suits them to obfuscate because then we 'need' them to explain it all to us poor simpletons. Franky, there are serious conflicts of interest to have lawyers and accountants in charge of making the rules!

This is a GM fansite. If I choose to not like or respect Toyota, then that is my perogative. I have dutifully applauded their successes where I feel they are merited. If my praise is not deemed to be high enough or eloquent enough or coached with all the correct jargon as befits a Harvard debating champion, then tough! I have endured and admired the battles on C & G for these past 3 years. I stand on my record. If others don't like it, then too bad. I don't like what Toyota in particular, but the Japanese in general, are doing to the auto industry. I could just throw in the towel and go work for Toyota, but I would rather sling hamburgers.

However, I don't think I have witnessed a single contributor tangle with as many members as I have seen aatbloke do in these past few months. I have had spirited discussions with others on this board in the past, but the only threat I have ever been involved in that was locked was one a few weeks ago when (guess who) started a war with three or four other members, including myself.

It is great to have degrees and merit badges hanging on the wall, but when someone feels the need to shove it in other people's faces all the time - well, all I can say is that the anonymity of the internet is a wonderful thing, no?

[Guest aatbloke]

I'm done with this thread. I am going to take the high road and ignore a newbie.

My record speaks for itself. I am in the car business. I have been for 11 years. I ran my own corporation (two, actually) for 11 years before that. I have been posting on C&G for just over 3 years now. Those who have been on this site for that long (or longer) know my impatience with analysts and the media, in particular. We are being over analysed to death. Big Business is paralysed with analysis. There is no ACTION because everyone is too busy studying what should be done, or shoving it off to committees. This is why I respect Wagoner for bringing Lutz on board. The auto industry (particularly in North America) needs a big dose of personality to get things DONE.

If certain people take my distrust of accountants and lawyers personally, I am sorry. However, Enron and other scandals only point to the fact that highly educated people with integrity can be sucked into a blackened void by figures and statistics because those figures can be distorted to show whatever the hell the Agenda of the Week wishes to show. Most of the rules and regulations are a hundred years old and need to be thrown out. The world today does not need to be as complicated as these professionals would like us to believe it must be, but then it suits them to obfuscate because then we 'need' them to explain it all to us poor simpletons. Franky, there are serious conflicts of interest to have lawyers and accountants in charge of making the rules!

This is a GM fansite. If I choose to not like or respect Toyota, then that is my perogative. I have dutifully applauded their successes where I feel they are merited. If my praise is not deemed to be high enough or eloquent enough or coached with all the correct jargon as befits a Harvard debating champion, then tough! I have endured and admired the battles on C & G for these past 3 years. I stand on my record. If others don't like it, then too bad. I don't like what Toyota in particular, but the Japanese in general, are doing to the auto industry. I could just throw in the towel and go work for Toyota, but I would rather sling hamburgers.

However, I don't think I have witnessed a single contributor tangle with as many members as I have seen aatbloke do in these past few months. I have had spirited discussions with others on this board in the past, but the only threat I have ever been involved in that was locked was one a few weeks ago when (guess who) started a war with three or four other members, including myself.

It is great to have degrees and merit badges hanging on the wall, but when someone feels the need to shove it in other people's faces all the time - well, all I can say is that the anonymity of the internet is a wonderful thing, no?

In my twenty-five years of experience in accountancy spanning time in three different countries, every businessman I've ever encountered understands the concept of profit (which doesn't have to, and rarely does, summarily equal cash in the bank whatsoever), retained profit (for those who think all of Toyota's profits automatically "go back to Japan") and furthermore, they certainly understand the concept of a company's domiciliary and how subsidiaries fit into the overall mix. A knowledgeable businessman would never regard Vauxhall or Opel as "American", either since they'd understand how companies are articled. Unfortunately all of this seemed like some sort of sensationalist CNN-style news to you from the very first posts I made on these forums - you know the Antara post, where a number of Americans engaged in rather uncivil discourse (actually it was more like unadulterated slander) of the entire British car industry simply in response to a British article about the car ... a car which was engineered in Germany and developed & built almost entirely in Korea.

You cannot broadbrush all accountants for the demise of Enron. That collapse was caused by a small number of individuals, including accounting professionals, over a very long period of time. Every professional worth his/her salt would never condone the actions of a few unscrupulous individuals, who proved just how inept the then archaic system of independent auditing really was - a fact that accountants had complained about for donkey's years. The 1994 change in UK audit regulations went some way towards addressing these issues, including taking the very smallest companies out of the audit loop altogether. There are bad eggs in every basket, there always have been, and there always will be. I will reiterate that your disdain for those in professions irks me as personally, I have no time for people who judge others based on their vocation. If I were to be as judgemental, I would never trust anyone in the motor trade - which has probably the worst reputation (on an international scale) when it comes to trustworthiness of any vocation anyone could ever be drawn into.

I am not suggesting that anyone has to like any automotive marque, however I have never met a true marque enthusiast in person who would willingly criticise everything about a competitor whilst simultaneously praising their favoured brand to the skies. Then again those were real people - and not the words of those contributing to a website who indeed could be anybody. I'm of the belief that the only reason this GM fansite makes available space for threads regarding competitors is to entice slander of those competitors, particularly the Japanese and particularly Toyota. I'm waiting for that observation to be confirmed by admin, and when it is, I'm out of here. If it's truly a GM fansite to relish solely in rose-tinted fashion the successes of one's favoured brand, then surely there's no need for any space to be devoted to competitors.

I am not here to tangle with anyone. I'll state my thoughts, but I'll also use my expertise from my field and knowledge of the car industry in general. So when I read rubbish such as "Vauxhall is American" or "Toyota's profits all go to Japan" then I will say my piece because I know for a fact such comments are made from complete ignorance of company law, accounting standards, business acumen and utter conjecture when it comes to the car industry.

You have no idea as to the education I have, and not once have I ever pushed any of it in anyone's face. Someone yesterday asked me my professional qualification and I responded. It isn't a big deal. There are without doubt plenty of subscribers here with very high levels of education, but I am not here to discuss their academic background - I'm here to discuss GM's position in the global automotive industry. In order to do that, I expect knowledge from others as to some basic facts - such as Vauxhall's legal status, for example. What I don't expect is petulant nationalistic bull$h!.

Carbiz, you and I would be wise not to share threads. Trust me, your conjecture doesn't wash for a moment with me, nor would it with anyone else in the real world who hasn't whiled away three years of their life on an internet forum. Because you and I both know that's the real reason you'd like to see me leave these forums.

But back to the topic in hand: hats off to Toyota. GM have little to fear when it comes to capping Toyota sales again, however their posted loss tells me matters are far from rosy for them, and that's ignoring its pure accounting losses such as its recent deferred tax write-offs.

Edited May 1, 2008 by aatbloke

[-Camaro-]

Whatever, they're only so far ahead, because of the strike.

[Guest aatbloke]

Whatever, they're only so far ahead, because of the strike.

LOL! Sorry, that made me laugh on so many levels!

[toesuf94]

Beyond the bickering and fact checking - here is what I have to ask to all of you: What does it MATTER?

Fact: Toyota is subsidizing thier sales with ultra low leases and further, is flooding the U.S. rental lots. Couple the low leases with high gas prices here in the states, and yes, Toyota will sell more cars than G.M.. It is dollars and cents, people.

Fact: G.M. has slowed production output of certain models to retain demand for said product and ensure quality of the cars being put out. At the same time, Toyota has had a LOT of quality issues as of late. The Tundra is a mess. The YJ is tearing itself in places, many models have engines sludging, Sienna Doors breaking...stuff that is NOT happening at G.M.. How long until the long standing quality rep of Toyota is hurt by thier high output?

So you can all bicker about who is smarter than who, all I care about are the cars I like to drive and love to look at - and those cars are made by G.M. - Not Toyota.

And, before aatbloke thinks I am only loyal to G.M., and a toyota/ Japan basher - I admit to hate Toyota - vehemently. Thier cars are beyond boring and they are overated. Their styling does NOT appeal to me, and I feel like I am driving an appliance when I am in one. Hondas are nice...still not THAT exciting. Mazda is kinda cool, Subaru gets more than a nod from me than it used to -fun cars! BMW - Hell YES. Porsche - not really. Nice to look at, but owning one is not in my future plans. I appreciate cars that are exciting and engaging. Not one design from Toyota in recent memory fits that bill.

[The O.C.]

Fact: Toyota is subsidizing thier sales with ultra low leases and further, is flooding the U.S. rental lots. Couple the low leases with high gas prices here in the states, and yes, Toyota will sell more cars than G.M.. It is dollars and cents, people.

Untrue....unless you have statistics to back these statements up.

Toyota isn't incentivizing their product any more than any of the Big3 are......and last time I saw stats, Toyota's fleet/rental percentages (even on cars like Camry and Corolla) are a fraction of GM's (and Ford's and especially Chrysler's).....

Toyota's ARE boring for the most part. However, the vast majority of the market favors cars as "appliances"......contrary to those of us on here that look at them as far more.....

[Guest aatbloke]

"And, before aatbloke thinks I am only loyal to G.M., and a toyota/ Japan basher - I admit to hate Toyota - vehemently. Thier cars are beyond boring and they are overated."

I've said twice already that having an appreciation for the competition doesn't mean you have to like their products. If you're a brand enthusiast, you appreciate the competition because it gives you the impetus to make the necessary strides to better your own products. Simply "hating" over issues based on pure conjecture or which you can't back up with actual hard facts is childish - or at least it is where I come from.

I'm sure that an Al-Qaeda sympathiser's website will make statements of blind, vehement hatred regarding Americans and western culture for reasons only to suit themselves. Half the statements I read about Toyota on this forum follow the same logic. I still believe that components of this website dedicated to "the competition" are merely for the benefit of contributors to rubbish them at every opportunity, rather than discuss their merits and drawbacks in a mature fashion befitting that of actual car enthusiasts.

The majority of manufacturers (which certainly includes Toyota) have made boring cars in the past, and many today still do. GM is hardly exonerated from that problem, either.

Edited May 1, 2008 by aatbloke

[The O.C.]

"And, before aatbloke thinks I am only loyal to G.M., and a toyota/ Japan basher - I admit to hate Toyota - vehemently. Thier cars are beyond boring and they are overated."

I've said twice already that having an appreciation for the competition doesn't mean you have to like their products. If you're a brand enthusiast, you appreciate the competition because it gives you the impetus to make the necessary strides to better your own products. Simply "hating" over issues based on pure conjecture or which you can't back up with actual hard facts is childish - or at least it is where I come from.

I'm sure that an Al-Qaeda sympathiser's website will make statements of blind, vehement hatred regarding Americans and western culture for reasons only to suit themselves. Half the statements I read about Toyota on this forum follow the same logic. I still believe that components of this website dedicated to "the competition" are merely for the benefit of contributors to rubbish them at every opportunity, rather than discuss their merits and drawbacks in a mature fashion befitting that of actual car enthusiasts.

The majority of manufacturers (which certainly includes Toyota) have made boring cars in the past, and many today still do. GM is hardly exonerated from that problem, either.

'bloke.....

I've been a member far longer than you.....and I will say this.....the vast majority of the posters on C&G are way more mindful of the industry in general. It just seems that the hardcore "GM Kool Aid Drinkers" get more of the attention due to the nature of their posts (and I'm not singling out anyone in particular.)

Yes there are members on here that like GM (sometimes to a fault) but they are usually honest and open about their opinions on the competition.....and they give the competition it's due when it's earned.

There's only a select few on here that are truly competely binded by their "faith."

That being said.....when I worked for GM, I used to be one of "them." I've said before on here that I was the guy that truly believed a Buick Regal GS was a superior car to a BMW....and I could explain (spin?) why....I was SO brainwashed, it wasn't even funny.

[enzl]

Untrue....unless you have statistics to back these statements up.

Toyota isn't incentivizing their product any more than any of the Big3 are......and last time I saw stats, Toyota's fleet/rental percentages (even on cars like Camry and Corolla) are a fraction of GM's (and Ford's and especially Chrysler's).....

Toyota's ARE boring for the most part. However, the vast majority of the market favors cars as "appliances"......contrary to those of us on here that look at them as far more.....

IIRC, last figures had Toyota piling on RECORD incentives, on average...which were LESS than half of the big 2.8's AVG. incentives.

As for GM's vaunted quality gains, there were 500k+ GM products recalled in the last 2 weeks, according to Automotive News.

[A Horse With No Name]

GM is gaining in quality, but it does not seem to be resonating with as many people as it should.

We have a long way to go.

Chris

[ZL-1]

Fact: Toyota is subsidizing thier sales with ultra low leases and further, is flooding the U.S. rental lots. Couple the low leases with high gas prices here in the states, and yes, Toyota will sell more cars than G.M.. It is dollars and cents, people.

But that is exaxctly what GM did for years. Sometimes it seems incentives were good when it was GM doing them 'because it kept plants running at close to full capacity', but now that Toyota is using its financial muscle and upping incentives it's suddenly seen as a bad thing: I don't get it...

Does Toyota runs the risk of doing the same as GM did? Yes, if they're dumb. However, they haven't been dumb over the last 30 years.

Edited May 1, 2008 by ZL-1

[-Camaro-]

LOL! Sorry, that made me laugh on so many levels!

That sounds like a personal problem but considering the strike cost them 100,000 sales(as stated in their press release) and cost them money, I wouldn't be laughing. Well not if I were GM anyway.

[toesuf94]

"And, before aatbloke thinks I am only loyal to G.M., and a toyota/ Japan basher - I admit to hate Toyota - vehemently. Thier cars are beyond boring and they are overated."

I've said twice already that having an appreciation for the competition doesn't mean you have to like their products. If you're a brand enthusiast, you appreciate the competition because it gives you the impetus to make the necessary strides to better your own products. Simply "hating" over issues based on pure conjecture or which you can't back up with actual hard facts is childish - or at least it is where I come from.

I'm sure that an Al-Qaeda sympathiser's website will make statements of blind, vehement hatred regarding Americans and western culture for reasons only to suit themselves. Half the statements I read about Toyota on this forum follow the same logic. I still believe that components of this website dedicated to "the competition" are merely for the benefit of contributors to rubbish them at every opportunity, rather than discuss their merits and drawbacks in a mature fashion befitting that of actual car enthusiasts.

The majority of manufacturers (which certainly includes Toyota) have made boring cars in the past, and many today still do. GM is hardly exonerated from that problem, either.

That did not come out right...Toyota makes pretty much ALL boring/bland appliances - at least in the U.S. market. I also recognize that GM does the same in a majority of the cars they make. GM makes up with at least a performance car like a Corvette, G8, Camaro in the mix. SS cars at least add some flash to the mix - hell, the last time I was given a loaner at the shop when my windshield was replaced, I was so BORED with the Impala LS they gave me I damned near fell asleep at the wheel. It was SO BLAND I pulled over to pour some salt packets I lifted from Wendy's just to make it home. The SS cars and trucks at least offer performance and upgrades to most or all of the systems in the car. Toyota add's an 'S' and some ground effects and a decklid spoiler - wow! Adding an 'S' to a Corolla or a Camry does not a sport sedan make. At least Mazda has the 'Speed' division that tweaks the cars. (We do not get the TRD versions of cars you kids in Australia get ).

What I hate is there seems to be this excitement over Toyota beating an AMERICAN company that has held a sales advantage in the world for 77 years. I cannot understand this as it is almost as if the U.S. press is excited to see a U.S. company FALL. I do not know what the vendetta against G.M. - and American business in general - is. Why do they ignore Toyota's failings in the market?

Edited May 2, 2008 by toesuf94

[Guest aatbloke]

That sounds like a personal problem but considering the strike cost them 100,000 sales(as stated in their press release) and cost them money, I wouldn't be laughing. Well not if I were GM anyway.

If you're going to wrap yourself in union debacles, don't chastise others who choose not to and then gain over you as a result. It's the irony in your post which made me laugh, but given the nature of the posts on here against Toyota I can't honestly say I'm that surprised you didn't understand how I found your comment comical.

[Guest aatbloke]

"What I hate is there seems to be this excitement over Toyota beating an AMERICAN company that has held a sales advantage in the world for 77 years. I cannot understand this as it is almost as if the U.S. press is excited to see a U.S. company FALL. I do not know what the vendetta against G.M. - and American business in general - is. Why do they ignore Toyota's failings in the market?"

Let's stop throwing tantrums and acting childish, calm down a bit, and look at this in a rational, common-sense fashion shall we? It is human nature - and certainly the nature of the media - to take an interest in a long-established leader to be conquered in some way. Had Manchester United consistently won the FA Cup for thirty years and then be beaten by Arsenal, it would no doubt cause massive media interest.

On top of that there's nationalistic interest. It's nothing to do with the media wanting to see GM fail. The US media concentrate their efforts and interest in American interests - individuals, entities, companies, and all the rest of it. If those entities do well, it'll make the news. If they're experiencing problems, it'll make even bigger news, especially if it's at the expense of a foreign competitor. The US media won't bat an eyelid if Toyota failed in some way, or if it beaten a non-US company statistically - but the interest surrounds the fact that GM was beaten, and not Toyota beating it.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

We in the West enjoy eating our young. Let's root for the underdog and pull #1 down. Once Toyota is #1, they will probably turn on Toyota like a pack of jackals.

[The O.C.]

What I hate is there seems to be this excitement over Toyota beating an AMERICAN company that has held a sales advantage in the world for 77 years. I cannot understand this as it is almost as if the U.S. press is excited to see a U.S. company FALL. I do not know what the vendetta against G.M. - and American business in general - is. Why do they ignore Toyota's failings in the market?

I don't think "excitement" is the right word. I really, truly, don't think anyone would want ANY of the Big3 to falter at the expense of the imports.

I think the more telling story that is being played out is exactly what you said in your post above. "....Toyota beating an AMERICAN company that has held a sales advantage in the world for 77 years."

That is a truly miraculous and amazing event.....and while I don't think anyone's necessarily "excited" about Toyota accomplishing that, there is surely alot of "awe" in the significance of that achievement......"awe" and "wonder" as to how GM could let it happen.....(although many of us on here seems to have solid opinions to that answer.)

[andy82471]

We in the West enjoy eating our young. Let's root for the underdog and pull #1 down. Once Toyota is #1, they will probably turn on Toyota like a pack of jackals.

Exactly who is the underdog here ? Toyota or GM. Most people will hardly agree with your statement that Toyota is the underdog against GM. More than likely it is the other way around.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

A wise man once told me,"you never want to be #1 in the business world, because everyone will put a target on your back. If you are #2, you can live a happy, comfortable life and people will leave you alone."

I have learned that whether it is the business world, sports, fashion or whatever - it is far better to be #2. Officially, our culture dictates that we 'aspire' to be #1, but in reality jealousy prevails and it become competitor's mission to take down #1. This largely explains why GM (and by extension, America) is often hated throughout the world: jealousy.