DI Outlook to get 27 MPG highway?

[Northstar]

From this article: http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/cont...0418_087885.htm

I assume the other Lambdas will get the same rating. Now I want to know why the CTS doesn't get better mileage? And give the Malibu DI and 270HP, that ought to get at least 30MPG highway with reduced weight and better aerodynamics vs. the Lambdas.

[Robert Hall]

That seems like a pretty optimistic rating, considering how heavy the Lambdas are.

[Drew Dowdell]

From this article: http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/cont...0418_087885.htm

I assume the other Lambdas will get the same rating. Now I want to know why the CTS doesn't get better mileage? And give the Malibu DI and 270HP, that ought to get at least 30MPG highway with reduced weight and better aerodynamics vs. the Lambdas.

gearing?

[pow]

There is also an image of the Outlook SUV sprouting a sail on its roof and a graphic that shows 27 mpg on highway for the seven-seater. "Rethink Big" is the headline.

That's the ad for the 2007s... and it was 26 mpg, not 27. The DI will maybe bump the '09s to 17/25 FWD.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Selling just 240,000 vehicles last year

Nice... I guess a quarter of a million vehicles isn't that much.

The critical finding: Car buyers who like Saturn's new vehicles but weren't buying them say the small-town "Main Street America" feeling of the brand and heavy emphasis on customer service in Saturn's ads make for a brand they didn't want to "wear."

Naturally... I mean, god forbid we ever want to associate ourselves with what makes america so great. In typical revisionist fasion, we'd rather be yuppies.

Women, in fact, are key to Saturn's plans to grow sales. Saturn marketing director Dan Keller says about 50% of Saturn buyers, the people who actually sign the papers, are women.

***drumroll***

And 25% of the remainder is males who actually think they're females. (Also known as Acura loyalists)

the target customer was refocused from the broad 18-to-49-year-old male and female to the Generation X and Y woman. The key, he says, has been to find the images and voice that will engage women, but without alienating men.

Now where does that leave Pontiac?

To do that, says Deutsch's Hirshberg, the creative team started looking at Saturn like a well-known brand, or person, who transforms his image through good works. Hirshberg says the idea to position Saturn's safety bona fides, hybrids, and styling in a "cool," positive, and magnetic light points to figures including Bill Gates, Bono, and Bill Clinton, who are arguably better known and liked for their philanthropy than their original fame as Microsoft chairman, rock star, and President, respectively. The idea is to transform Saturn to "an automotive force of positivity,"

Maybe... Just maybe.... They can throw in a pair of organic pants, a diversity sticker and birkenstocks instead of cash incentives. (Becuase we all know how this demographic is; they'll waste tons of money on "image causes" instead of actually spending it to make an honest difference)

Seriously though, this isn't rocket science... If Saturn is to succeed with a new mission, new look and new names, the consumer MUST be informed.

Edited April 21, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[turbo200]

Naturally... I mean, god forbid we ever want to associate ourselves with what makes america so great. In typical revisionist fasion, we'd rather be yuppies.

dude, chill out. i mean really just reread the statement and try to be open to this idea that not everyone in these 50 states, with the huge populations and distinct cities and states we live in, we don't all see the country through your eyes and your experience. with this message, the people were saying they don't think of main street for saturn, they want something more forward-thinking, more worldly and up to date. i mean their are great cities and places outside of the US that are represented in some ways in our larger cities where many different people from different walks of life exist. many people associate america with vibrant communities, great nationalistic pride in our national tenets of freedom and ethics, ethical society, great vast metropolitan cities where you can connect with the world, an advanced form of thinking that has affected and permeated other parts of the world. i mean for a long time we weren't the leaders, it's only been through the time of our generation, but by the results of a previous generation's work, that we have really cemented that leadership role [and now a second generation after that has given it all away]. second, customer service isn't associative with something cool, that's all. you want a brand that sucks up to you but doesn't make a big deal about how they suck up to you. thier brand should mean much more than that, and it should be associable with technology with coolness, with idealism. your views never fail to be out there, but they are entertaining, in a good way....

[RJB]

Whats the real world MPG on the Lambdas? I don't see too much of an improvement with the DI engine. And its true these Lambdas could go on a bit of a diet, which would help out a lot.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

dude, chill out. i mean really just reread the statement and try to be open to this idea that not everyone in these 50 states, with the huge populations and distinct cities and states we live in, we don't all see the country through your eyes and your experience. with this message, the people were saying they don't think of main street for saturn, they want something more forward-thinking, more worldly and up to date. i mean their are great cities and places outside of the US that are represented in some ways in our larger cities where many different people from different walks of life exist. many people associate america with vibrant communities, great nationalistic pride in our national tenets of freedom and ethics, ethical society, great vast metropolitan cities where you can connect with the world, an advanced form of thinking that has affected and permeated other parts of the world. i mean for a long time we weren't the leaders, it's only been through the time of our generation, but by the results of a previous generation's work, that we have really cemented that leadership role [and now a second generation after that has given it all away]. second, customer service isn't associative with something cool, that's all. you want a brand that sucks up to you but doesn't make a big deal about how they suck up to you. thier brand should mean much more than that, and it should be associable with technology with coolness, with idealism. your views never fail to be out there, but they are entertaining, in a good way....

I was being sarcastic FWIW.

Edited April 22, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Robert Hall]

dude, chill out. i mean really just reread the statement and try to be open to this idea that not everyone in these 50 states, with the huge populations and distinct cities and states we live in, we don't all see the country through your eyes and your experience. with this message, the people were saying they don't think of main street for saturn, they want something more forward-thinking, more worldly and up to date. i mean their are great cities and places outside of the US that are represented in some ways in our larger cities where many different people from different walks of life exist. many people associate america with vibrant communities, great nationalistic pride in our national tenets of freedom and ethics, ethical society, great vast metropolitan cities where you can connect with the world, an advanced form of thinking that has affected and permeated other parts of the world. i mean for a long time we weren't the leaders, it's only been through the time of our generation, but by the results of a previous generation's work, that we have really cemented that leadership role [and now a second generation after that has given it all away]. second, customer service isn't associative with something cool, that's all. you want a brand that sucks up to you but doesn't make a big deal about how they suck up to you. thier brand should mean much more than that, and it should be associable with technology with coolness, with idealism. your views never fail to be out there, but they are entertaining, in a good way....

And not to mention that the 'small town Main Street America' image is pretty out of date... it's not Norman Rockwell 1950 out there.... modern America is suburbia and the growth is in the major metropolitan areas...small towns ceased to be relevant a long time ago, and have been in a state of decline for a long time (in part due to Wal-Martization and other economic issues).

My point being a 'homey' image won't help sell Saturn to people in cities and suburbs (where the population is--80.6% of the US) and where the new car buyers are, most of to whom the small town image is irrelevant, I suspect..

Edited April 22, 2008 by moltar

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I would beg to differ...

Since the mid 90's there has been a 'small town' movement in the architectural and planning world. The place I live now is yuppie paradise. It was on Money Magazines top 10 places to live about 6 years ago when the boom began. http://money.cnn.com/2002/11/21/services/p...m_bpl/index.htm

And guess why it's so appealing; small town atmosphere. It was originally a mill town outside of the city that has now been taken over as the arts district. It features a small town layout, small town businesses and local talent.

NC has been booming with people who move here to "get out of the city" and have "a slower lifestyle" Too bad those people are now making it "the city" and ruining it for us natives.

Edited April 23, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Robert Hall]

I would beg to differ...

Since the mid 90's there has been a 'small town' movement in the architectural and planning world. The place I live now is yuppie paradise. It was on Money Magazines top 10 places to live about 6 years ago when the boom began. http://money.cnn.com/2002/11/21/services/p...m_bpl/index.htm

And guess why it's so appealing; small town atmosphere. It was originally a mill town outside of the city that has now been taken over as the arts district. It features a small town layout, small town businesses and local talent.

NC has been booming with people who move here to "get out of the city" and have "a slower lifestyle" Too bad those people are now mking it "the city" and ruining it for us natives.

There's a big difference between desirable small towns like that, though, and the depressed, dying ones in Ohio and PA I'm familiar with, though---I wonder if there are more in the later category nationwide. And of course, there are the small resort towns, which exist in their own world... (I've lived in one, Marathon Florida).

[The O.C.]

Whats the real world MPG on the Lambdas? I don't see too much of an improvement with the DI engine. And its true these Lambdas could go on a bit of a diet, which would help out a lot.

I had a FWD Enclave for a day.....put over 200 miles on it, and the trip computer said I averaged 14mpg in mixed driving........that sucks.....but then again I don't expect any better from a 5,000 lb SUV with 275hp.....so I don't really bitch about it.....

[The O.C.]

I would beg to differ...

Since the mid 90's there has been a 'small town' movement in the architectural and planning world. The place I live now is yuppie paradise. It was on Money Magazines top 10 places to live about 6 years ago when the boom began. http://money.cnn.com/2002/11/21/services/p...m_bpl/index.htm

And guess why it's so appealing; small town atmosphere. It was originally a mill town outside of the city that has now been taken over as the arts district. It features a small town layout, small town businesses and local talent.

NC has been booming with people who move here to "get out of the city" and have "a slower lifestyle" Too bad those people are now making it "the city" and ruining it for us natives.

I'm confused.....what's the actual name of the city/town you live in? And how far/close is it to Charlotte?

[The O.C.]

There's a big difference between desirable small towns like that, though, and the depressed, dying ones in Ohio and PA I'm familiar with, though---I wonder if there are more in the later category nationwide. And of course, there are the small resort towns, which exist in their own world... (I've lived in one, Marathon Florida).

Many suburbs too are now trying to mimic small-town "feel" in a 21st-century way.

Used to be that the "common" suburbs were just subdivisions and strip malls. (Many of them still are.....where I grew up in Oklahoma and Texas they still are like that.) But now, many progressive bedroom communities/suburbs are trying to bring a community feel to the area like they never have before.

Where I live in Aliso Viejo, it's a master-planned community of about 45,000 people that just became a city like 5 years ago, and probably didn't exist as little as 15 years ago. However, we've seen an infusion of non-chain restaurants and bars and shops in the area, a vast majority of them located in what is called the "Aliso Viejo Town Center." One MIGHT call the Town Center a glorified strip-mall, but what it really offers is a kind of 21st century "small town downtown" feel with a mixture of restaurants, bars, shops, theatres, a health center, a park (where there are summer concerts every Sunday afternoon) and other attractions.

Now many suburbs have similar "strip-malls" but what is neat about ours is that it's EXTREMELY pedestrian-friendly.....and it's location is such that it's within easy walking distance of many of our developments here....and just a 5min drive or less for the rest of them.

Combine that with the fact that our city includes 51% of it's area as parkland, many in the hills and mountains the city is built on, and you have ripe outdoor activity (hiking, biking, etc.) close by as well.

I'm sure many of you are seeing this kind of development in and around your cities' suburbs as well. Living even in a city like mine, in a county of over 3 million, in a region of over 17 million will never replicate "small town" but it does bring alot more liveability to an area like mine.

My mom and dad, who live in a suburb of Tampa, Florida, have commented many times that they have nothing in Florida like what we have here. Many/most of the suburban areas by them are text-book "strip-malls, fast-food, and car-dealerships" and even though there are many nice housing developments, there really is no character at all. My mom wishes she could "transplant" Aliso Viejo to Florida.....LOL.

[Robert Hall]

When I moved from downtown Denver (LoDo) to the burbs (Greenwood Village) it was like that...The GV (as the locals call it) is basically a group of office parks with some condos and newer houses, and some retail...a mix of chain restaurants, local restaurants, high end shopping, etc... very nice area to live and work... I'm going to miss it, but where I'm living in central Phoenix has a lot of retail, and where I'll be working (N. Scottsdale) has lots of restaurants, etc.

I have a friend here in the Denver area (lives in Highlands Ranch, the poster child for suburban spral, was on the cover of National Geographic in the late '90s) moved here from Aliso Viejo..said it was very nice.

One trend I saw here in Colorado was old traditional malls being torn down or reconfigured into 'Town Centres'--a mix of condos and pedestrian-friendly street malls...it seems every Denver suburb now has at least one or more of these, and the newer suburbs that are still springing up on the eastern prariare are building them as well...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm confused.....what's the actual name of the city/town you live in? And how far/close is it to Charlotte?

NoDa... It's about a mile or two outside of uptown Charlotte.

http://www.noda.org/

[Robert Hall]

NoDa... It's about a mile or two outside of uptown Charlotte.

http://www.noda.org/

Looks like a nice neighborhood.....with the brick buildings, taco places, wine bars, coffee houses it reminds of some of Denver's neighborhoods...I like the funky neighborhoods that are getting modernized. They way you have talked, I thought you were somewhere way out in the sticks..

[The O.C.]

NoDa... It's about a mile or two outside of uptown Charlotte.

http://www.noda.org/

That's what I thought....so it's really not "small town" because most of the people that live there probably commute somewhere in the city of Charlotte.........it's like what we are having out here....pockets of "quaint" and "small town" inside a larger metro area.

To me, a true "small town" (and NOT at all desirable to me) is a small town, say 10K people or less that's outside of realistic commuting distance to a larger metropolitan area or city.

(Edit: Now places like you live, so close to a major city, IS desirable to me......you can have the quaintness, or small-town "feel" but with all the amenities of a major metropolitan area within very close reach.....)

Edited April 23, 2008 by The O.C.

[The O.C.]

Aliso Viejo.....(not as "quaint" and cute of a website, but gives lotsa info.)

NOTE....Corvette car show in AV on 5-10-08....!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.cityofalisoviejo.com/

[Robert Hall]

That's what I thought....so it's really not "small town" because most of the people that live there probably commute somewhere in the city of Charlotte.........it's like what we are having out here....pockets of "quaint" and "small town" inside a larger metro area.

To me, a true "small town" (and NOT at all desirable to me) is a small town, say 10K people or less that's outside of realistic commuting distance to a larger metropolitan area or city.

(Edit: Now places like you live, so close to a major city, IS desirable to me......you can have the quaintness, or small-town "feel" but with all the amenities of a major metropolitan area within very close reach.....)

Yes, real 'small towns' that I know of from when I lived in Ohio were 150-2500 people or so, where the nearest city of 50,000 or more was at least 50 miles away...depressing little towns out in the middle of nowhere, places that time had passed by.

A few small towns in Ohio that I'm familiar with that are very nice and within major metro areas (but are not really suburbs) are Dublin and Powell in the Columbus area and Hudson in the Akron-Cleveland area. They have the quaint small town feel, but plenty of modern amenities...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Looks like a nice neighborhood.....with the brick buildings, taco places, wine bars, coffee houses it reminds of some of Denver's neighborhoods...I like the funky neighborhoods that are getting modernized. They way you have talked, I thought you were somewhere way out in the sticks..

I bounce back and forth. This is my home while I'm at school, then when I'm not I go back to where I was raised which is 'in the sticks' (Appalachian Mountains) LOL. Yeah, I'm a bit more 'cultured' than my persona here conveys.

NoDa is great for what it is. The vibe is very small town and very artsy at the same time. Crawl nights are especially fun. But it seems that almost any night we can walk to everything and at the bars it's literally like (not to sound too cliche) everybody knows your name. We live in a 100 year old mill, which is very cool because cavigirl and I are both history buffs. Living in this environment is also good for me because it helps me with social skills. I'm very introverted and living in close proximity to other people seems to bring me out more.

I say "for what it is" because I always miss my hometown. I miss being out in the country away from people in the fresh air. I miss the mountains. But for now, as long as I have to live in an apartment in the city, I wouldn't have it any other way.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That's what I thought....so it's really not "small town" because most of the people that live there probably commute somewhere in the city of Charlotte.........it's like what we are having out here....pockets of "quaint" and "small town" inside a larger metro area.

To me, a true "small town" (and NOT at all desirable to me) is a small town, say 10K people or less that's outside of realistic commuting distance to a larger metropolitan area or city.

(Edit: Now places like you live, so close to a major city, IS desirable to me......you can have the quaintness, or small-town "feel" but with all the amenities of a major metropolitan area within very close reach.....)

I can agree to that, but I still think there is a desire to live 'small town' eventhough it is close to the city. NoDa was originally a mill town albeit a LONG time ago before Charlotte swallowed it up.

I'm sorta like that... It's the ultimate paradox. I want a good job with cool places to hang out but at the same time NoDa is WAY too urban for me. I need space and lots of nature. If such a place exists, them I'd be right at home.

Aliso Viejo sounds very nice too. I'd definitely be using those parks

Edited April 23, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Robert Hall]

I'm thinking within the next two years I'll make a major decision where I want to be longer term geographically and what I want in a house...I like my condo in the Denver 'burbs, this is not the best time to sell (I'm going to rent it out while I'm in Phoenix). I figure I'll live in my sister's house in Phoenix for a while. I like urban genetrified neighborhood places, but I also think about getting a house in the 'burbs so I can have the square footage...I have 1200 sq ft in my condo, but a lot of stuff in storage, and only 1 parking spot. Part of me really wants the 3000-3500 sq ft (w/ basement) little beige tract house in the 'burbs w/ the 3 car garage and the postage stamp yard (which I can afford in the Denver area or in the Phoenix area, and could do even better if I went back to the Pittsburgh or Columbus area)... I figure by June 2010 (40th) I'll have my plans figured out..

[regfootball]

all these people that abondoned their homes for the panacea of the condo life, i can't wait to see all the bitching about communal living and sharing things and complaints about noise and smells and being too close to other people. building condos for a living and knowing how they get built vs. people's expectations......then we'll see if everyone is still all romantic and $h! about 'walkable neighborhoods' and high density. i do think reasonable sized single family homes with a sidewalk and tree lined boulevard is still the way to go, as well as simple 2-3 story row home condos. high rise housing needs it place, only in downtowns in limited numbers.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

all these people that abondoned their homes for the panacea of the condo life, i can't wait to see all the bitching about communal living and sharing things and complaints about noise and smells and being too close to other people. building condos for a living and knowing how they get built vs. people's expectations......then we'll see if everyone is still all romantic and $h! about 'walkable neighborhoods' and high density. i do think reasonable sized single family homes with a sidewalk and tree lined boulevard is still the way to go, as well as simple 2-3 story row home condos. high rise housing needs it place, only in downtowns in limited numbers.

Funny, my gf says the same thing.

We'll pass by the latest "upper class" condo project here in Charlotte and she'll say; "building tomorrows ghettos for todays upper class." We all know that most of that sh*t is only built to last 5-10 years. But then again, I'm not sure anyone even builds sturdy houses with character anymore. (Besides the uber wealthy)

[The O.C.]

all these people that abondoned their homes for the panacea of the condo life, i can't wait to see all the bitching about communal living and sharing things and complaints about noise and smells and being too close to other people. building condos for a living and knowing how they get built vs. people's expectations......then we'll see if everyone is still all romantic and $h! about 'walkable neighborhoods' and high density. i do think reasonable sized single family homes with a sidewalk and tree lined boulevard is still the way to go, as well as simple 2-3 story row home condos. high rise housing needs it place, only in downtowns in limited numbers.

Well, I've never owned a condo.....it's been all townhouses for me (with the exception of a beach bungalow I owned in Long Beach for about 1.5 years.)

I've been fortunate that my townhouses have always been end units, with only one shared wall, some sort of small yard and/or patio, and an attached garage (most with a driveway too.)

It would be tough for me to do the highrise condo bit only because of my 2 small dogs. It's so nice to have the backyard for them to go out to when they need to do their duty, and also for them to just get to spend time outside.