Toyota Developing Hybrid Tundra

[Guest Josh]

TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp. is working on a hybrid version of its next-generation Tundra pickup.

"We are doing the necessary technical development so that a large pickup with a hybrid will be developed," said Masatami Takimoto, Toyota Motor executive vice president for advanced technology.

But several key details still need to be worked out, says Jim Press, president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.

Toyota is conducting an engineering feasibility study to determine whether a Tundra hybrid can meet customer requirements, Press said. Toyota will redesign the Tundra in early 2007.

Hybrids use gasoline engines and electric engines to power the wheels.

A hybrid work truck presents engineering challenges not present in standard cars, said Dave Hermance, executive engineer for Toyota Technical Center U.S.A.

On the plus side, hybrid battery packs provide excellent low-end torque, which is good for stump-pulling and other quick-effort heavy lifting.

On the down side, many truck owners require their vehicles to tow or haul heavy loads over long distances. Hybrid battery power is nearly useless in that aspect. As a result, a pickup cannot scrimp on engine displacement without sacrificing towing performance, Hermance said. That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.

Takimoto noted that long-distance towing stresses the durability of a hybrid system.

Toyota plans to sell 300,000 hybrid vehicles worldwide in 2006 and 1 million by 2010. To hit that number, selling a hybrid full-sized pickup and SUV is almost a necessity, Hermance said.

More: http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=55038

[Flybrian]

On the down side, many truck owners require their vehicles to tow or haul heavy loads over long distances. Hybrid battery power is nearly useless in that aspect. As a result, a pickup cannot scrimp on engine displacement without sacrificing towing performance, Hermance said. That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.

Takimoto noted that long-distance towing stresses the durability of a hybrid system.

[post="33278"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No biggie. When's the last time you've seen a Tundra tow something larger than a pair of jetskis or a $19.99 lil' lugger UHaul?

[Clownzilla]

No biggie. When's the last time you've seen a Tundra tow something larger than a pair of jetskis or a $19.99 lil' lugger UHaul?

[post="33281"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree. Most people buy trucks (especially Japanese trucks) for the "urban cowboy" persona. It makes them feel rugged. Most workers I see end up driving Chevy and Ford trucks, which in turn do need the power. I hope GM makes their hybrid (their REAL hybrid, not their truck hybrid they are getting very soon) worker friendly. In all the articles I have read, the GM hybrid will do just that.

[Flybrian]

I agree. Most people buy trucks (especially Japanese trucks) for the "urban cowboy" persona. It makes them feel rugged. Most workers I see end up driving Chevy and Ford trucks, which in turn do need the power. I hope GM makes their hybrid (their REAL hybrid, not their truck hybrid they are getting very soon) worker friendly. In all the articles I have read, the GM hybrid will do just that.

[post="33286"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In light of hearing this, I hope so, too. Already, the mild hybrid system in the Silverado/Sierra is quite worker-friendly as it doubles as an in-truck generator with multiple outlets - it just isn't really fuel-friendly!

[Newbiewar]

In light of hearing this, I hope so, too. Already, the mild hybrid system in the Silverado/Sierra is quite worker-friendly as it doubles as an in-truck generator with multiple outlets - it just isn't really fuel-friendly!

[post="33294"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

it isnt really supposed to be... its not a true hybrid... it's supposed to be good for a 10% increase but... thats only 1 or 2 mpg...

but i think the funniest thing i ever saw was a tundra hauling a horse trailer... like 2 horse i think... and it seemed the truck was dragging on the ground... then a 1/2 mile later... i see a ford with like a 5 horse trailer hauling it no problem... its kinda funny...

[haypops]

but i think the funniest thing i ever saw was a tundra hauling a horse trailer... like 2 horse i think... and it seemed the truck was dragging on the ground... then a 1/2 mile later... i see a ford with like a 5 horse trailer hauling it no problem... its kinda funny...

[post="33302"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Proper towing techniques require the careful loading of the trailer so as to result in 100-200 lbs. of weight on the hitch, ONLY. It sounds like the Toyota owner didn't understand this, not that his truck was incapable.

[cmattson]

Hitch weight and trailer weight are both considerations in towing. When you pull more than your vehicle is rated for, you are putting everybody on the road at risk. I pull a 3500lb travel trailer with my Suburban - and it handles it very, very comfortably. I've pulled into a headwind, uphill at seventy and it hardly brakes a sweat. If GM finally gets their full-hybrid systems to the market, they might finally beat Toyota to a hybrid segment. I'm wondering if Toyota is having any problems adapting their single-in-line hybrid system to work on their full-size units. How well can a single electric motor power a full-size truck; I'd imagine that it would labor quite a bit and that it's range of speed would be very, very limited. You'd need to either (1) build the electric motor around the transmission gearing to make use of the additional gearsets (like GM), or (2) use a larger motor. Using a larger motor would be a bit unappetizing because it would add expense and weight -- so GM's approach really makes sense. I'd imagine GM's got a magnitude of copyrighted/patents in the dual-mode/built-around the transmission design. I wonder if that's going to hinder Toyota's efforts any. Edited October 24, 2005 by cmattson

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'll bet you $100 that they beat GM to the punch on this.

Press said big trucks are Toyota's "biggest opportunity for growth."

Well of course....

Maybe he's hinting to the media.

[ponchoman49]

My advise to Toyota: figure out how to make the Prius work without taking time off on the highway before you delve into a pickup truck. But wait isn't that what we all want to see. New Toyota hybrid pickup truck being recalled right after it's launch. Would be just another nail in there coffin.

[Sixty8panther]

I bet it will get like 0.75 mpg more than the standard Tundra... or perhaps even 1.25 mpg more. SO worht the $6000 extra maintenance costs for 5 years/100K miles and not to mention the extra $8000 in initial cost. :rolleyes:

[haypops]

New Toyota hybrid pickup truck being recalled right after it's launch. Would be just another nail in there coffin.

[post="33821"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I wonder if that is really what we want. It is possible that a loss of consumer confidance in Toyota would cause a loss of consumer confidance in all vehicles including GM. GM could end up with a slighlty larger market share of a considerably smaller total market. I think that what most benefit GM is that it were seen as an equal to Toyota.

[Flybrian]

It is possible that a loss of consumer confidance in Toyota would cause a loss of consumer confidance in all vehicles including GM.

[post="33890"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Honestly I don't see that happening. Toyota isn't Jesus or some last great hope, so if it falls that badly, people will simply turn to other imports (esp Honda) or take another look at domestics and perhaps be pleasently surprised.

[haypops]

Honestly I don't see that happening. Toyota isn't Jesus or some last great hope, so if it falls that badly, people will simply turn to other imports (esp Honda) or take another look at domestics and perhaps be pleasently surprised.

[post="33894"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

While I understand your point, I do think some people will just hold onto their present car if their belief system is abruptly shaken. This is of course "short term".

[CaddyXLR-V]

I can see that happening with hydrogen cars though. All it takes is one manufacturer to rush to be first with unreliable systems. Just look at diesels. Alot of people avoid them at all costs.

[Sixty8panther]

*Thinks for a minute* Instead of proving how crappy & over rated Japanese cars are I think it's more beneficial and logical to prove to the world that GM makes great cars & trucks and for the money there is no better value. Negative campaigning will just turn ugly.

[cmattson]

More info from edmunds: http://ualuealuealeuale.ytmnd.com/

The new Tundra will debut at this year's NAIAS. The truck will reach production in early '06 - and the hybrid model will be avail. in 2007 (presumably as an '08 model).

Clearly, Toyota is attempting to keep GM's pace in the full-size truck market -- this pretty much matches GM's timeframe. GM might be viewed as a little bit behind this because of their choice to push the SUV's ahead of the full-size trucks. I don't think this is going to hurt them, sales-wise, because Toyota has shown an inability to garner significant market share previously + Nissan has offered a more-than-competant import-spawned truck. Nissan is struggling for market share and now must split some sales with Toyota. Most truck owners are fiercly loyal. As for marketing-wise, GM is going to get their *ss handed to them (as usual). Most of the rags will jump all over the Tundra - and GM's trucks will be largely-seen as an also-ran.

One last thing: DOHC, 5.5l, and only 300hp? WTF? GM's now-6-year-old 5.3L pushes well past 300hp -- and doesn't have nearly the "technology" Toyota's latest effort has.. I'll wait to see the final numbers, but if Edmunds is accurate (and that's a HUGE if), then Toyota will definately be a step-behind GM power-wise (again).

[Guest gmrebirth]

More info from edmunds: http://ualuealuealeuale.ytmnd.com/

The new Tundra will debut at this year's NAIAS.  The truck will reach production in early '06 - and the hybrid model will be avail. in 2007 (presumably as an '08 model).

Clearly, Toyota is attempting to keep GM's pace in the full-size truck market -- this pretty much matches GM's timeframe.  GM might be viewed as a little bit behind this because of their choice to push the SUV's ahead of the full-size trucks.  I don't think this is going to hurt them, sales-wise, because Toyota has shown an inability to garner significant market share previously + Nissan has offered a more-than-competant import-spawned truck.  Nissan is struggling for market share and now must split some sales with Toyota.  Most truck owners are fiercly loyal.  As for marketing-wise, GM is going to get their *ss handed to them (as usual).  Most of the rags will jump all over the Tundra - and GM's trucks will be largely-seen as an also-ran.

One last thing: DOHC, 5.5l, and only 300hp?  WTF?  GM's now-6-year-old 5.3L pushes well past 300hp -- and doesn't have nearly the "technology" Toyota's latest effort has..  I'll wait to see the final numbers, but if Edmunds is accurate (and that's a HUGE if), then Toyota will definately be a step-behind GM power-wise (again).

[post="34509"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You need to learn how to read.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107690

"Toyota reportedly is readying an all-new twin-cam V8 engine for the new truck, displacing around 5.5 liters and producing more than 300 horsepower. It is also expected to offer a hybrid gas-electric variant for model-year 2008."

More than 300HP could mean 399HP for all we know, so stop the assumptions, and wait till the actual specs are released.

[haypops]

You need to learn how to read.

[post="38722"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You need to learn to express yourself without being the most obnoxious possible person that you can. Its just a car - cmattson didn't say your baby was ugly!

[balthazar]

More than 300HP could mean 399HP for all we know, so stop the assumptions, and wait till the actual specs are released.

Right. Sure. Just like nissan's titan was said to be bringing "MORE THAN 300 HP!!" and it squeaked in at 305. We know the tundra will be damned close to 300 and no where near even 350. toyota has a 15-year track record of being strictly a follower in the truck segment.

BTW: I've never seen a tundra towing anything... ever. FOlks around here don't seem to have either the 1. need or 2. confidence to do so. ;)

[andy82471]

Right. Sure. Just like nissan's titan was said to be bringing "MORE THAN 300 HP!!" and it squeaked in at 305. We know the tundra will be damned close to 300 and no where near even 350. toyota has a 15-year track record of being strictly a follower in the truck segment.

BTW: I've never seen a tundra towing anything... ever. FOlks around here don't seem to have either the 1. need or 2. confidence to do so. ;)

[post="38757"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My guess is HP would be somewhere between 320 to 340 and torque close to 380. Speaking of the Titan I think Nissan is being conservative with their HP figure. Most test shows the Titan is quicker than the 340 HP Hemi powered Dodge. So go figure.

[Guest gmrebirth]

You need to learn to express yourself without being the most obnoxious possible person that you can.  Its just a car - cmattson didn't say your baby was ugly!

[post="38751"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Why get so personal all of a sudden, did I strike I nerve or something?

I simply outlined his arrogance and stupidity after he made a mockery of a truck he barely knows anything about, and who also misread what Edmunds posted.

This has nothing to do with my "baby", or whatever the heck you are trying to talk about.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Right. Sure. Just like nissan's titan was said to be bringing "MORE THAN 300 HP!!" and it squeaked in at 305. We know the tundra will be damned close to 300 and no where near even 350. toyota has a 15-year track record of being strictly a follower in the truck segment.

BTW: I've never seen a tundra towing anything... ever. FOlks around here don't seem to have either the 1. need or 2. confidence to do so. ;)

[post="38757"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Who's *we* ... you and other blind faith followers and domestic loyalists, who refuse to take a look at objective reality?

Really is that so? I guess that certainly explains why the Tacoma is THE best selling midsize truck in the US currently.

I've never seen a Colorado towing anything ... ever. I guess that means Colorado is not a "real" truck then :rolleyes: .

Get over yourself, the world does not revolve around *you*, so just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it can't be, or hasn't been done.

You can have all the opinions in the world, but you won't be able to argue with the specs once the truck is unveiled, so we will see.

Plus, it shows you know oh so much about trucks, being fixated on HP, when anyone who knows anything about trucks knows that torque is what really counts, and the Titan by the way has plenty, 379 lb-ft of it.

[Flybrian]

Really is that so? I guess that certainly explains why the Tacoma is THE best selling midsize truck in the US currently.

[post="39692"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think that may have to do with the S10s/Sonomas still being sold earlier this year as well as the fractioning of GM midsize truck sales between the Colorado and Canyon.

[cmattson]

I think that may have to do with the S10s/Sonomas still being sold earlier this year as well as the fractioning of GM midsize truck sales between the Colorado and Canyon.

Yup, here's the sales stats:
Colorado: 113,062
Canyon: 30,857
Total: 143,919
(S10 and Sonoma sales total 212 units this year), if you add them in the total is actually 144,133 for GM.

2005 Tacoma sales: 139,600

The Tacoma is the best-selling small truck only because GM has their models split between two divisions. This isn't unlike how Ford advertises their F-150 as the best selling pickup, when there have been multiple years that the Silverado+Sierra twins surpass it.

Lastly, the Colorado is enjoying a 17.x% gain over it's sales pace from last year. The Tacoma is up 7.x% from last year.

Sales Stats (thru Oct):
GM:
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...n=3&docid=20121
Toyota:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/11/01/147202.html Edited November 7, 2005 by cmattson

[sciguy_0504]

According to CR (go ahead and laugh) the most reliable vehicle of 1997 and 1998 is the Toyota Tacoma. The VW Passat (or maybe Jetta, can't remember) was the least reliable with 70-some% of owners taking it to the dealer for service.

[balthazar]

Who's *we* ... you and other blind faith followers and domestic loyalists, who refuse to take a look at objective reality?
Really is that so? I guess that certainly explains why the Tacoma is THE best selling midsize truck in the US currently.
I've never seen a Colorado towing anything ... ever. I guess that means Colorado is not a "real" truck then  :rolleyes: .
Get over yourself, the world does not revolve around *you*, so just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it can't be, or hasn't been done.
You can have all the opinions in the world, but you won't be able to argue with the specs once the truck is unveiled, so we will see.

I had the same reaction as my above one to the same chest-thumping claim by nissan, who like I said; eventually revealed the "OVER 300 HP!!" titan to have 305. nissan has executed a lot more effective performance emphasis than toyota, so the likelyhood, based on past example, that an "over 300 hp!!" boast by toyota will turn out to be 350 frankly, makes me snicker. But the base intent of your post is true: we'll see when it's made official.

By the way, can you explain how the pre-production PR on the next tundra has anything to do with the current sales rate of a pre-existing production tacoma? And if it does have any relevence, the tundra being THE worst selling fullsize truck in the US currently must be many times more significant.

Plus, it shows you know oh so much about trucks, being fixated on HP, when anyone who knows anything about trucks knows that torque is what really counts, and the Titan by the way has plenty, 379 lb-ft of it.

Yes, it's torque that counts, which is why Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet & GMC sell so many 600+ ft-lb of torque trucks.

[Guest gmrebirth]

I had the same reaction as my above one to the same chest-thumping claim by nissan, who like I said; eventually revealed the "OVER 300 HP!!" titan to have 305. nissan has executed a lot more effective performance emphasis than toyota, so the likelyhood, based on past example, that an "over 300 hp!!" boast by toyota will turn out to be 350 frankly, makes me snicker. But the base intent of your post is true: we'll see when it's made official.

By the way, can you explain how the pre-production PR on the next tundra has anything to do with the current sales rate of a pre-existing production tacoma? And if it does have any relevence, the tundra being THE worst selling fullsize truck in the US currently must be many times more significant.
Yes, it's torque that counts, which is why Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet & GMC sell so many 600+ ft-lb of torque trucks.

[post="39926"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually, the Titan sells worse than the Tundra.

The full size pickup market is one of the most impenetrable, with domestic makers dominating it for decades. Considering the Tundra is Toyota's first (somewhat hearted) attempt at this market, I'd say it's not doing that bad. Toyota only has one plant right now that can actually build the Tundra, and that is Indiana. Indiana also shares Tundra production with the Sequoia. Toyota is on-track to sell over 100K Tundras this year, and Indiana can only produce a total of 150K vehicles, so they must cut into Sequoia production in return for higher Tundra output. Toyota right now can't build any more Tundras, even if demand is there. That is precisely why they are building the San Antonio plant to prepare for the new Tundra. San Antonio will add 200K production output, and if need be, Indiana can still be used for additional output.

Nissan also made a good effort for their first attempt at a full size truck, although it's sales are not as high as the Tundra.

Nissan also has somewhat of a track record for boasting a lot, at least in terms of their engine output and power (for example, numerous claims that the VQ engine is overrated). Nissan has yet to show their power numbers under the new SAE standard for most of their models, compared to Honda, Toyota, or GM, most of whom are retesting engines, old or new, under this new standard.

Take Toyota's claim for the IS350 ... they claimed a 0 - 60 under 6 seconds. Turns out, the time posted on the Lexus website is 5.3s, and the time C & D achieved in their test was 5.1s.

Either way, let's wait for the specs ... it's pointless to argue about this until we see them.

Both the Titan and Tundra are not "true" full sizers, compared to the domestics.

[balthazar]

>>gmrebirth: The full size pickup market is one of the most impenetrable, with domestic makers dominating it for decades.<<

You mean like 10 decades, right?
What's always been intriquing to me is the small pickup market, once owned 100% by japanese-built product but has slid to a mere 26% of the U.S. market by 2002. When's the last time you read that little tidbit in any analysis of the auto industry?

>>Both the Titan and Tundra are not "true" full sizers, compared to the domestics.<<

Whoa; waitaminnit-- now the titan isn't "full-size" either?!?! This excuse has long been the mantra of tundra supporters, but this is the first I have heard it applied to the titan as well.
Tundra has the same exterior size as my F-150, the titan is larger. If the few inches difference in dimensions were a factor in less-than-stellar sales, the largest truck would have the biggest slice of the sales pie. Does it? Or is this hair splitting a deflection of the truth of the situation; that the tundra is simply not competitive and neither is the nissan?
Wa-aaaayy too much emphasis on a few inch differences with classes of vehicles- like anyone walks new car lots with a tape measure in hand. If a tundra is (say) 5 inches shorter than a Silverado, is the Silverado likewise not "full-size" if it's 5 inches shorter than the (say) Ram??

[Guest gmrebirth]

>>gmrebirth: The full size pickup market is one of the most impenetrable, with domestic makers dominating it for decades.<<

You mean like 10 decades, right?
What's always been intriquing to me is the small pickup market, once owned 100% by japanese-built product but has slid to a mere 26% of the U.S. market by 2002. When's the last time you read that little tidbit in any analysis of the auto industry?

>>Both the Titan and Tundra are not "true" full sizers, compared to the domestics.<<

Whoa; waitaminnit-- now the titan isn't "full-size" either?!?! This excuse has long been the mantra of tundra supporters, but this is the first I have heard it applied to the titan as well.
Tundra has the same exterior size as my F-150, the titan is larger. If the few inches difference in dimensions were a factor in less-than-stellar sales, the largest truck would have the biggest slice of the sales pie. Does it? Or is this hair splitting a deflection of the truth of the situation; that the tundra is simply not competitive and neither is the nissan?
Wa-aaaayy too much emphasis on a few inch differences with classes of vehicles- like anyone walks new car lots with a tape measure in hand. If a tundra is (say) 5 inches shorter than a Silverado, is the Silverado likewise not "full-size" if it's 5 inches shorter than the (say) Ram??

[post="40102"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sorry, I guess that's my mistake then.

I always assumed the Titan and Tundra were not "full size" compared to competitors because that's what a lot of people on these boards and GMI always say.

I should have known better, and checked for myself.

I guess that goes to show full size pickup buyers are extremely loyal.

[regfootball]

No biggie. When's the last time you've seen a Tundra tow something larger than a pair of jetskis or a $19.99 lil' lugger UHaul?

[post="33281"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

y know, come ot think of it, I've never seen a Tundra that was towing ANYTHING.

honest.

[balthazar]

I always assumed the Titan and Tundra were not "full size" compared to competitors because that's what a lot of people on these boards and GMI always say. I should have known better, and checked for myself.

I know; I've read it countless times too, and it's infuriating. I don't want to say it's the media swallowing toyota PR whole, but..........
And while it may not literally be toyota PR, the fact remains that way too much is blindly accepted about toyota without questioning or verifying anything; by the media and the consumer both.

[haypops]

What's always been intriquing to me is the small pickup market, once owned 100% by japanese-built product but has slid to a mere 26% of the U.S. market by 2002. When's the last time you read that little tidbit in any analysis of the auto industry?

[post="40102"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

At one time there were tariffs on import cars but not trucks, now the opposite is true. Additionally, if pick up truck owners are loyal, why wouldn't that extend to small pickups once their favorite brand was available domestically.

[Cadillacfan]

Oh great! Another Toyota hybrid that will get well below stated fuel-economy which in turn, will be the fault of the people buying the truck according to Toyota's PR. Horray for the environment!!!!!!!

[BrewSwillis]

Oh great!  Another Toyota hybrid that will get well below stated fuel-economy which in turn, will be the fault of the people buying the truck according to Toyota's PR.

Horray for the environment!!!!!!!

[post="40268"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

More ammo for the Blue Man Group.........oops, I mean Bluewater Network! :lol:

[The O.C.]

y know, come ot think of it, I've never seen a Tundra that was towing ANYTHING.

honest.

[post="40174"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My friend Rich purchased a Tundra.....and LOVES it....! He tows two seadoos and trailer, about 3,500lbs total (not alot, I realize) but says he can't even tell they are back there.....(and he has the V8 before they increased the power this year.)

He used to have an S-10 pickup, so he looked at the Silverado but didn't like the quality of it (interior, etc.) and says it felt too cheap.

He didn't want an F-150 because he has a bad feeling about Ford quality.

He almost got a Ram, but it was "too" big to drive around town, etc.

His wife likes the Tundra because it's so smooth to ride in and to drive, she says it feels like the "Lexus" of trucks.

NOTE....my friend is a non-automotive-enthusiast. He came out of an Isuzu Trooper 4X4....and his wife has an '06 BMW 325i.