I'am getting sick of this shit.UAW threatens to strike Chevrolet Malibu production

[Toyota.vs.GM]

UAW should be re-named United Assholes Bitches

[Robert Hall]

The union is in a quixotic battle against it's own obsolescence, I'm afraid..

[ZL-1]

They're using the 'hit them where it hurts most' tactic. Let's see who wins this chapter.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

The thing is, whether you are pro-union or anti-union, the UAW does not understand that they had leverage when they controlled GM, Ford and Chrysler. Now, the 'big 3' only control half the market. Unless they unionize Honda and Toyota plants, they are only succeeding in biting the hand that feeds them.

This is not 1970. Let GM and Ford get off the mat and nail them in the next round of talks when Detroit has some money. Doing it now is just plain suicide.

[ZL-1]

The thing is, whether you are pro-union or anti-union, the UAW does not understand that they had leverage when they controlled GM, Ford and Chrysler. Now, the 'big 3' only control half the market. Unless they unionize Honda and Toyota plants, they are only succeeding in biting the hand that feeds them.

This is not 1970. Let GM and Ford get off the mat and nail them in the next round of talks when Detroit has some money. Doing it now is just plain suicide.

I agree: this isn't 1970 and the challenges to the UAW's future relevance are enormous, just as big as the challenges to the Detroit 3 themselves. If they don't agree, the ship will sink.

Edited April 18, 2008 by ZL-1

[siegen]

Do these contracts go unresolved because the Union is asking for outrageous amounts of money? At this point, it is critical for GM to keep building that car, although a shortage certainly wouldn't hurt the car's image itself, just the pocketbook.

[CARBIZ]

I am sure union support is about to sink to an all time low around here: the local transit authority is poised to strike on Monday, throwing over a million commuters off the rails. $22 to sit on your ass and sell tickets? C'mon! The trouble is, these guys keep blocking any sort of progress, like hiring newer workers at a lower wage. Why is that so 'unfair?'

I am so sick of unions.

[daves87rs]

The thing is, whether you are pro-union or anti-union, the UAW does not understand that they had leverage when they controlled GM, Ford and Chrysler. Now, the 'big 3' only control half the market. Unless they unionize Honda and Toyota plants, they are only succeeding in biting the hand that feeds them.

This is not 1970. Let GM and Ford get off the mat and nail them in the next round of talks when Detroit has some money. Doing it now is just plain suicide.

Agreed.

I'm not understanding why they do it...

I'm actually suprised none of the big 3 has tried to dump the UAW all together.

Are they afraid they might lose a few workers or something?

[Intrepidation]

Apparently the UAW would rather close down the company and have no jobs than taking a pay cut or whatever. Brilliant logic!

Idiots.

[regfootball]

my guess is there are still enough laws in place to discourage union busting / dumping that gives the union the ability to still pull $h! like this.

actually, i say let the union strike, and let GM milk the pub off this all they want.

[A Horse With No Name]

The thing is, whether you are pro-union or anti-union, the UAW does not understand that they had leverage when they controlled GM, Ford and Chrysler. Now, the 'big 3' only control half the market. Unless they unionize Honda and Toyota plants, they are only succeeding in biting the hand that feeds them.

This is not 1970. Let GM and Ford get off the mat and nail them in the next round of talks when Detroit has some money. Doing it now is just plain suicide.

...agreed. let them sit home without pay for six months and we'll see how well they feed their kids and how well they make their house payments.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I am sure union support is about to sink to an all time low around here: the local transit authority is poised to strike on Monday, throwing over a million commuters off the rails. $22 to sit on your ass and sell tickets? C'mon! The trouble is, these guys keep blocking any sort of progress, like hiring newer workers at a lower wage. Why is that so 'unfair?'

I am so sick of unions.

While I am voting Democratic in the fall, it pains me greatly to think that I could be furthering the union cause by doing so.

I also am sick to death of unions.

Chris

[Blake Noble]

You know, unions did start out with good intentions -- better pay and better working environments for the everyday working man -- but now they have pushed beyond the point of being greedy. Should there be a cap on how much a union can do? Perhaps.

[daves87rs]

You know, unions did start out with good intentions -- better pay and better working environments for the everyday working man -- but now they have pushed beyond the point of being greedy. Should there be a cap on how much a union can do? Perhaps.

The working world is muvh better than it was 100 years ago.

Unions have outlived their usefulness....

[longtooth]

The Chinese get the Buick Invicta. I doubt the UAW insisted upon that. Sharp car that one. Will we get a watered down version later?

[daves87rs]

The Chinese get the Buick Invicta. I doubt the UAW insisted upon that. Sharp car that one. Will we get a watered down version later?

No...

[Blake Noble]

The Chinese get the Buick Invicta. I doubt the UAW insisted upon that. Sharp car that one. Will we get a watered down version later?

You sound so positively negative! Are you my own mother by any chance? You sound just like her!

[longtooth]

You sound so positively negative! Are you my own mother by any chance? You sound just like her!

No, I'm not. But clean your room. I was commenting on GM's penchant for not bringing the sweetest looking rides here first.

[gm4life]

While I am voting Democratic in the fall, it pains me greatly to think that I could be furthering the union cause by doing so.

I also am sick to death of unions.

Chris

^This is why I have voted republican for the last 30 plus years...^

Honestly Hill or Obama is gonna wanna sleep in bed with the Union workers. Vote for someone who oppose Unions and let good companys get screwed over. I also vote for republicans because of right to life issues amoung many others. Having said that my favorite dem in Hillary by a mile over Obama. Enough politics get rid of the Union.

[Blake Noble]

No, I'm not. But clean your room. I was commenting on GM's penchant for not bringing the sweetest looking rides here first.

When it comes to GM, it means more than North America. :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

While I am voting Democratic in the fall, it pains me greatly to think that I could be furthering the union cause by doing so.

I also am sick to death of unions.

Chris

Unions are the one qualm I have about voting Democratic...but the alternative (voting Republican) would be far worse for me, IMHO...

[gm4life]

I understand whatever floats your boat.

[longtooth]

By the way. Unions are not the problem. Their workers comprise around 12% of the workforce. The 'workplace' and the 'working-world' as some have termed it is not so inviting and hospitable as some would have you believe it is. It is presently like a game of musical chairs. Too much music and far too few chairs. IT jobs can be key-stroked overnight to Rawalpindi and Bangalore. Bill Gates pleads before Congress for more H1B visas, a spectacle as regular as the cherry blossom festival down in DC. Colleges graduate sub-standard product and a marksman occasionally. America is in retrograde. Tip. Iceberg.

I'm adding this link to a New York Times piece which speaks to the concerns of some with regard to education and to how it may affect the Nation as a whole and our competitiveness in the Global arena.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/opinion/...&ei=5087%0A

Edited April 22, 2008 by longtooth

[enzl]

By the way. Unions are not the problem. Their workers comprise around 12% of the workforce. The 'workplace' and the 'working-world' as some have termed it is not so inviting and hospitable as some would have you believe it is. It is presently like a game of musical chairs. Too much music and not enough chairs. IT jobs can be key-stroked overnight to Rawalpindi and Bangalore. Bill Gates pleads before Congress for more H1B visas, a spectacle as regular as the cherry blossom festival down in DC. Colleges graduate sub-standard product and a marksman occasionally. America is in retrograde. Tip. Icebeg.

If they didn't blame the Unions, the management of the Big 2.8 might actually have to blame themselves! (When's the last time one of these guys took responsibility for their inability to plan for market corrections? Never.)

The Union issues are just one of the many problems each company has as they lurch into the 21st century with overcapacity in the US and uncertainty abroad. GM has consistently displayed an uncanny knack for half-steps, when giant leaps are needed. Mark my words, another round of drastic downsizing will take place at GM within the next 18 months--the erosion of the large truck market nearly guarantees it.

[longtooth]

If they didn't blame the Unions, the management of the Big 2.8 might actually have to blame themselves! (When's the last time one of these guys took responsibility for their inability to plan for market corrections? Never.)

The Union issues are just one of the many problems each company has as they lurch into the 21st century with overcapacity in the US and uncertainty abroad. GM has consistently displayed an uncanny knack for half-steps, when giant leaps are needed. Mark my words, another round of drastic downsizing will take place at GM within the next 18 months--the erosion of the large truck market nearly guarantees it.

By blaming Unions, the D3 the scope of the problem is artificially limited. Like hiding under the covers.

I apologize if it would seem to some as pushing an agenda. I'll throw in the New York Times link one last time so it can be recognized more readily. sit back and take my 'lumps'. Thank you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/opinion/...&ei=5087%0A

Edited April 22, 2008 by longtooth

[Robert Hall]

By blaming Unions, the D3 the scope of the problem is artificially limited. Like hiding under the covers.

I apologize if it would seem to some as pushing an agenda. I'll throw in the New York Times link one last time so it can be recognized more readily. sit back and take my 'lumps'. Thank you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/opinion/...&ei=5087%0A

Excellent article...kind of indicative of the sad state of affairs the US is in and why we are slipping out of the lead globally...who is to blame? The government? The schools? The unmotivated students? The parents? It seems kids are far more interested in playing video games than math and science and getting a good education.

[longtooth]

Excellent article...kind of indicative of the sad state of affairs the US is in and why we are slipping out of the lead globally...who is to blame? The government? The schools? The unmotivated students? The parents? It seems kids are far more interested in playing video games than math and science and getting a good education.

Apathy? Symptom of a greater underlying malaise? We seem to have compressed what befell Rome to fit the span of a few decades. My not having a practical solution causes me to feel glad that I'm old.

Thank you for taking the time to consider and respond. Perhaps this festering wound requires same airing.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

Decay in a successful society is inevitable, I am afraid. Fat, lazy and stupid comes to mind. We have an entire generation that doesn't know what it is like to 'do without;' worse, they are being taught by an entire generation that doesn't know what it is like to do without.

The fact that there hasn't been a war fought on our soil in 130 years could be a large part of the problem. Sure, soldiers are dying in Iraq and did die in Vietnam, but that is 'over there.'

We have parents and teachers telling the youth of today that they are 'special' and that we are all created equal when that is patently untrue. Evolution, whether social, economic or biologic, guarantees that we are not all created equal. It is the time and energy wasted on chasing that facade that is wasteful of time and energy. We are a nation that wants to grow up to be doctors and lawyers, when what we need are skilled laborers. Nobody wants to dig ditches, so we are forced to import those skills.

We Americans need to wake up to the fact that the world does not revolve around our asses anymore. Stop whining about what we are entitled to and start working for it.

[longtooth]

'IfICouldWouldYou?'; Rome.

[longtooth]

I could cut the condescension in this thread with a knife.

Seriously, who is being patronizing?

[loki]

Unions are the one qualm I have about voting Democratic...but the alternative (voting Republican) would be far worse for me, IMHO...

isn't the idea behind unions having that much power, bigger than just that...Dems generally want wealth distribution according to the platform /anti capitalism

is the war issue why you don't vote republican, or something else?

[Robert Hall]

isn't the idea behind unions having that much power, bigger than just that...Dems generally want wealth distribution according to the platform /anti capitalism

is the war issue why you don't vote republican, or something else?

The war, and I wouldn't want to be associated with their core constituency..(gun nuts, fundie Christians, corrupt CEOs, etc). I'm an atheist and liberal to moderate on most things...just nothing for me in the Republican party.. a vote for McCain would be a vote for the status quo, which isn't very good after the last 7 years...he's another old white guy that should be playing golf at Moon Valley (Phoenix country club) and enjoying retirement rather than running for president, IMHO..

Edited April 22, 2008 by moltar

[CARBIZ]

Vote? Why bother? All we end up with is a 4 year dictatorship. Until politicians are held accountable for what they promise during elections, they will just lie and obfuscate during the eleciton, and then do whatever the f$@k they want for 4 years.

Sometimes I wish that we had a real monarchy or dictatorship - then, at least we would know what we were in for.

[Intrepidation]

I wonder what Greek philosophers would think of what this country has done to Democracy and the idea "power of the people"

[CARBIZ]

Sorry, Dodgefan, but you Americans don't have the monopoly on lying, cheating scumbag politicians. Canada probably wrote the book. And our local mayor is an IDIOT. I would rather have Chuckles the Clown running Toronto - certainly couldn't do any worse.

[Shantanu]

What you have to realize is that in the short term, unions can enhance their workers wages, but in the long term they hurt wages. We see this because places like Ohio, Michigan, and upstate New York had wages that were 10-20% higher than the national average about 30-40 years ago, but since then have fallen behind right to work states like Texas and Georgia, which used to be considered "backward". Even now, many people in the Midwest are convinced that if they passed a right to work law, everyone's wages would be automatically reduced to $5 an hour.

What happens is that in the long term the companies shift employment away from heavily unionized places to places where unions aren't as strong. It's got as much to do with the wages the union demands, as it does with the other hassles like the threats, strikes, inability to crackdown on bad workers that come with a union. So in the long term, the union actually hurts the average income of a place, because companies shift away.

[The O.C.]

It seems kids are far more interested in playing video games than math and science and getting a good education.

Or....heaven for bid.....going outside to play games and be active.....

When I grew up (obviously...I'm 37)....there was no internet....and there weren't any home computers! You know what we all did after elementary school? We went outside (gasp) and played dodgeball, hide-and-seek, and other games outside in our col-de-sac.

Today's kids sit inside on the computer, in their rooms, on their cell phones texting each other.....no wonder our country has gotten so overwhelmingly FAT and LAZY....

[A Horse With No Name]

The war, and I wouldn't want to be associated with their core constituency..(gun nuts, fundie Christians, corrupt CEOs, etc). I'm an atheist and liberal to moderate on most things...just nothing for me in the Republican party.. a vote for McCain would be a vote for the status quo, which isn't very good after the last 7 years...he's another old white guy that should be playing golf at Moon Valley (Phoenix country club) and enjoying retirement rather than running for president, IMHO..

Excellent, another Atheist here!.

...and yes the fundie christians have effed things up enough here.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Sorry, Dodgefan, but you Americans don't have the monopoly on lying, cheating scumbag politicians. Canada probably wrote the book. And our local mayor is an IDIOT. I would rather have Chuckles the Clown running Toronto - certainly couldn't do any worse.

I'll grant you chuclkles the clown if I can have Chelsea Clinton as our next president.

Chris

[capriceman]

The Stupidity in this thread amazes me...

I just ask to look at both sides of an argument before talking, Include everything in your thoughts economy, and available jobs in the surrounding area. The UAW doesn't want the Big 3 to go bankrupt at all. What happened at American Axle is the reason why unions started in the first place to help workers from big corporations.

For Example you go into work and your Employer says your pay is cut in half and your medical care and 401k plans gone. What would you do? Most likely quit right? Heres the thing where are these people going to go? They have the same bills you do, so they can't just sit at home. Any one living in Ohio or Michigan knows there are no good jobs at all. Not even Fast food places are hiring. There are no jobs in the area. Do you want all of us to leave like the dust bowl era and flood your city with people looking for work?

You need to understand that they are fighting for there job and to make what they made before. They will understand pay cuts but they need to be warned and need to be gradual.

Another thing about the Auto industry now is that Dies are mostly privately owned and are strict on tolerances unlike the 70's. Also the lack of suppliers affect this too. Back then if a supplier was demanding to a auto company they would say kiss are ass and take the dies and give them to another supplier. Now They can't take there dies back also there isn't any bidding on these jobs like there used to be. So the suppliers have a monopoly and started to realize it and trying to Make more money for them selves at the Expense of others (Capitalism at its finest).

This is why Michigan is so bad has no job market, record Bankruptcies, foreclosure's, homeless, and unemployment.

Theres more to this than what you call greedy workers. Think before you speak. Call me a dumbass, pull up figures, Cause in the end whats going on around me in the metro Detroit area is the only proof I need to see what is truly going on here.

[daves87rs]

The Stupidity in this thread amazes me...

I just ask to look at both sides of an argument before talking, Include everything in your thoughts economy, and available jobs in the surrounding area. The UAW doesn't want the Big 3 to go bankrupt at all. What happened at American Axle is the reason why unions started in the first place to help workers from big corporations.

For Example you go into work and your Employer says your pay is cut in half and your medical care and 401k plans gone. What would you do? Most likely quit right? Heres the thing where are these people going to go? They have the same bills you do, so they can't just sit at home. Any one living in Ohio or Michigan knows there are no good jobs at all. Not even Fast food places are hiring. There are no jobs in the area. Do you want all of us to leave like the dust bowl era and flood your city with people looking for work?

You need to understand that they are fighting for there job and to make what they made before. They will understand pay cuts but they need to be warned and need to be gradual.

Another thing about the Auto industry now is that Dies are mostly privately owned and are strict on tolerances unlike the 70's. Also the lack of suppliers affect this too. Back then if a supplier was demanding to a auto company they would say kiss are ass and take the dies and give them to another supplier. Now They can't take there dies back also there isn't any bidding on these jobs like there used to be. So the suppliers have a monopoly and started to realize it and trying to Make more money for them selves at the Expense of others (Capitalism at its finest).

This is why Michigan is so bad has no job market, record Bankruptcies, foreclosure's, homeless, and unemployment.

Theres more to this than what you call greedy workers. Think before you speak. Call me a dumbass, pull up figures, Cause in the end whats going on around me in the metro Detroit area is the only proof I need to see what is truly going on here.

While I agree with you Cap, I'm afraid there is much around to stop it, and certainly not the UAW.

While I totally agree with the AA strike, the UAW cannot afford to shoot GM in the foot right now. You simply do not shoot down your meal ticket. While GM is getting better, crippling their best products may only cost even more GM workers their jobs. Wait until the the company is healthy again, then feel free to go with it.

Yes, it really is bad around here-and I expect it to get worse.

I have a feeling this is going to happen almost everywhere, as companies are more worried about pleasing wall street (my company included) then worrying about their employees...and it is going to happen at every job level..it is going to make things very interesting....

[CARBIZ]

Now would not be a good time to debate the pros and cons of union membership: the local transit union just walked off the job at midnight Friday, strangling Canada's largest city. Why? Our union-friendly Mayor gave them EVERYTHING they wanted. The union 'leadership' approved the agreement late Sunday, but the rank and file rejected it. A 9% pay raise over 3 years, and a clause that automatically raises their wages every time another city in the area gets a raise bigger than them????? Oh, BOO HOO, they are upset that they have to go before a Board to get approval for sick leave. Welcome to the f$%king real world. Sick leave? Has anyone ever seen these fat, heaving TTC types? What they should clamor for are free memberships to Jenny Craig - maybe then they'd have less need of sick leave. They whine and mewl about 'stress' on the job. Stress? They should try driving a bus in Rio de Janiero: careening through traffic at 40 mph, giving out change, changing gears and navigating 8 lane roads and tunnels - that is stress! These fat f$#kers leave a bus full of people stranded while they go and buy a friggin coffee!

Toronto needs to privatize the transit authority, like London and other cities have successfully done. $23 an hour to sit on your fat ass and collect tickets. TICKETS. What major city still uses tickets anyway? One of the guys I work with has a son in law who just retired at 50 years old from the TTC: $50k a year to sit on his ass completely. Unions are run amok and the civil servants are the absolute worst.

Anyone who wants to do a doctorate on the Decline of the Western World need look no further than the average civil servant union. These guys make the UAW look like a bunch of pansies (not that there is anything wrong with pansies, mind you.)