Pontiac studies fuel economy

[Oracle of Delphi]

Jamie LaReau

Automotive News

April 7, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

ATLANTA — Like most General Motors brands, Pontiac is considering technology such as ethanol, diesel, hybrids, direct-injection engines and six-speed transmissions to achieve better fuel economy.

"Pontiac will benefit from all the fuel economy technology, just like the other brands, but it's too early to be specific," said a source familiar with GM's plans.

Pontiac has branded itself as "seductive performance." The company wants its identity to be based on rear-wheel performance vehicles such as the Solstice roadster, G6 sedan and new flagship G8 sedan. But with high fuel prices, GM leaders know they must improve fuel economy.

"You never know what's going to happen," Brian Shipman, product manager for the G8, said at a drive event here. "We're considering a lot of different things. We're even looking at a V-6 for the sport package. There are equal opportunities coming up, but nothing firm yet."

The newly launched base G8 comes with a V-6 engine. The GT variant offers a V-8 engine. The V-8 has active fuel management — a system that shuts off four of the eight cylinders when the driver reaches a steady pace. Active fuel management delivers about a 10 percent improvement in fuel economy, Shipman said.

The V-6 engine uses a five-speed automatic transmission; the V-8 has a six-speed automatic. Shipman indicated Pontiac soon might install a six-speed transmission and direct-injection engine in the base G8. That would boost fuel efficiency. Currently, the V-6 G8 gets 17 mpg city and 25 highway.

GM officials have said they could install the company's mild hybrid system on any four-cylinder vehicle, such as the G5 coupe or Solstice, without massively reworking the vehicle's architecture. The mild hybrid system restarts the engine at stoplights and provides a slight boost upon acceleration. The mild hybrid system improves fuel economy by about 20 percent.

"Right now, I wouldn't say we have a hybrid plan — certainly not on the G8 — but the flexibility on the architecture is definitely there if we need to go that way," Shipman said.

A GM spokesman said offering E85 ethanol is probably the nearest-term solution Pontiac is considering.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...paign_id=alerts

[pow]

I certainly hope direct injection and a six-speed transmission make their way to the V6 G8... even if you downsized the engine to a 3.2, you'd still get comparable performance. I believe the 3.2 JTS (DI) in the Alfa 159 makes 260 hp.

Offering only the GXP version of the Solstice would also improve Pontiac's average...

Edited April 7, 2008 by empowah

[regfootball]

6 speed DI would be tasty. after driving the GT this past weekend, i really don't need the smallblock and will probably prefer the v6.

Edited April 7, 2008 by regfootball

[ZL-1]

hmmmm... from "excitement" to "seductive performance"... does this mean Pontiac is no longer adolescent?

[ocnblu]

Six speed automatics, DI and turbocharged, smaller displacement engines are fine with me if they ensure the survival of the brand.

[hyperv6]

No news here.

The entire auto industry will make generous use of DI in almost all engines it will spread like FI in the 80's and 6 speed trannys will be just the norm in 5-10 years or less.

The leading edge will be hybrid systems and 7 and 8 speed trannys.

Just GM promoting what we will see in all there other brands less the RWD.

And Yes Pontiac has moved on from being the adolescent brand a while ago. The adolecents all want Honda's and Subaru's.

[ponchoman49]

Wow the base V6 G8 is rated for only 17/25. Thats only one better than the much higher powered V8 model and poor by todays standards. The Saturn Aura and Malibu 3.6 engines are also rated low at 26 highway. Why is this engine so thirsty?

[Drew Dowdell]

I called Ms. Cleo. She said to expect lots of turbo charging, direct injection, smaller displacements and some 2 mode hybrids thrown in for good measure.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

All fine...

As long as I can buy my V8.

[Paolino]

Pontiac has branded itself as "seductive performance." The company wants its identity to be based on rear-wheel performance vehicles such as the Solstice roadster, G6 sedan and new flagship G8 sedan.[/url]

Anyone want to tell this guy that Pontiac is ingeniously branding itself as just "car"? And anyone want to point out to him that the G6 sedan is not RWD?

[z28luvr01]

Well, it's good to hear that GM is studying ways to make Pontiac, and in particular the G8, more economical. GM already has all the tools it needs in its toolbelt. Writing off the brand is very short-sighted.

One word does come to mind, though: ALPHA!

[ocnblu]

Alpha is such a no-brainer, perfect fit for Pontiac, I have no idear why Chevrolet needs the platform, except maybe for a Camaro 6.

[Sixty8panther]

So since when is the G6 RWD? (3rd paragraph)

[turbo200]

The most significant lines are concerning the 'mild hybrid system', and that GM can put it in any 4 cylinder car without overhauls to the car's structures. I guess this also means it is harder to put the mild hybrid in 6 and 8 cylinder GMs. Nonetheless, this is a fascinating line because it means GM has been looking into applying mild hybrid en masse, such as has been suggested here already, by myself and others.

That would be such a huge move. I have been thinking of how wonderful it would be if all luxury cars came wiht some form of the mild hybrid or full hybrid systems. They wouldn't have to change the cars cosmetically, but the sheer benefit of the additional electric motor, the regenerating characteristcs, and stop/go features of a hybrid system would go seriously long ways towards solving some of our gas consumption issues.

Luxury cars are the biggest gas guzzlers, in general. Luxury cars in general are purchased in significant numbers in massively poplous business centers throughout the US where congestion and inefficiency are heavy. There have been studies done on LA of how many hours we waste sitting on a freeway, it's not pretty. So you can see why, if I were a Washington Senator, I'd be targeting luxury cars and thier inefficieny. Generally, mass market cars are 4 cylinders and reasonably efficient 6 cylinders. Trucks are the other major sector for inefficiency. I'd also be working on systems within urban centers to get people out of thier cars more often and into mass transportation at least half the time they go places.

Thanks to PCS for posting this as it also shows GM is expressing interest in alternatives for Zeta!!!!!!!!

This is the right way to go. Finding the way forward requires seeing what would cost the least amount of resources, while offering the most amount of benefits. I think we will see people moving more towards the big car formula, which is ironic because it didn't look that way for a while. Especially around the size of Accord but offering the efficiency that and Camry offer is key. So if we can get a G8 with a mild hybrid V6 doing 30/45, for reasonable prices, or if this has to be Impala because it can be built in the US, that is the way to go. By reasonable prices, I mean we should be looking at $28k for this kind of hybrid Impala/G8/Zeta. I see no reason why we shouldn't also get a 3.2 DI and soon, offering 240 hp, but much higher fuel mileage, say 24/36 for a Malibu/G8.

Continuing to improve on product desirability and a continous goal of changing perception are Job 1 at GM. Even though Malibu is fantastic, it still has the last gen Malibu polluting the streets and offering deathly resale value to scare potential buyers away. GM must work hard at releasing fantastic products, from bottom to top, that help people forget what was there before. That I beleive precludes cancelling Zeta, since Cadillac must be RWD, and there's no other suitable large car platform for that. Unless you want Cadillac to be Lincoln and enjoy seeing BMW raking in the profits!

Edited April 7, 2008 by turbo200

[hyperv6]

It was no seceret we would get 7-10 years of Zeta because GM has to have something eles to sell. GM will recoupe it's investment here We may see more of the Ute like vehicles with a few twist. Just look at how the new Arcadia is replacing the large SUV. a smaller truck based on a Zeta could surplant the 1/2 for many. Also drive train combo's we had not ecpected. [Ecotech]. I would not discount a weight reduction plan if they can work it economically.

Alpha's is more important now than ever and they are looking to make it the new Zeta to make it even more expandable for many uses like they did with the Zeta.

New FWD platforms will be key to imporve and take Hybrid technolgy so it really works and is cost effective.

Hybrids will become the norm for all models.

New 4 and V6 engines will have smaller displacments, DI, turbo's and hybrid systems beyond what we have now.

Trucks will see Unibody for at least the half ton class and more V6 power.

Small trucks like smaller than a S10 could be in the cards.

The trucks, Cadillac and the Vette will still have V8 power but it will be less common. Look for expanded Diesels.

Hydogen is still an option in some new platforms.

Small cars like the Smart will make a impact on many city commuters. Others will low ball the price and who ever sells the best car cheap will win in this class. The #1 rule is they need to keep them cute as cute sells crummy cars.

Folks, GM has 10 years to make some big changes and and they can do it all in one year. They are like us and have to budget it out. But this time all the cards are on the table and right now they are just waiting to see what all the goverment is going to require and what they can or can not do.

What they decide now will make a differance if they make money or lose billions of dollars in 10 years on wasted or wrong program choices.

Times like this make me glad we have the leaders we have now vs Roger Smith and others.

Anyway that is what I see coming.

[turbo200]

to all you said hyperV6, only one thing to say is I am waiting with bated breath.

I hope so to everything you have to say.

I am keen on seeing Zeta get a weight reduction and Ecoetec. I am also interested in seeing GM do all alluminum platforms for Caddy, in larger sedans, coupes, and sports cars, and based on Zeta fundamentals would be interesting. and could prove beneficial to lower forms of Zeta along with the lower brands.

I also would like to see Zeta Impala become a reality. GM must make this car happen, as it was said to be a game changer, and could heavily alter the perception of Chevy cars.

Edited April 7, 2008 by turbo200

[smk4565]

Luxury cars are the biggest gas guzzlers, in general. Luxury cars in general are purchased in significant numbers in massively poplous business centers throughout the US where congestion and inefficiency are heavy. There have been studies done on LA of how many hours we waste sitting on a freeway, it's not pretty. So you can see why, if I were a Washington Senator, I'd be targeting luxury cars and thier inefficieny. Generally, mass market cars are 4 cylinders and reasonably efficient 6 cylinders. Trucks are the other major sector for inefficiency. I'd also be working on systems within urban centers to get people out of thier cars more often and into mass transportation at least half the time they go places.

So if we can get a G8 with a mild hybrid V6 doing 30/45, for reasonable prices, or if this has to be Impala because it can be built in the US, that is the way to go. By reasonable prices, I mean we should be looking at $28k for this kind of hybrid Impala/G8/Zeta. I see no reason why we shouldn't also get a 3.2 DI and soon, offering 240 hp, but much higher fuel mileage, say 24/36 for a Malibu/G8.

Continuing to improve on product desirability and a continous goal of changing perception are Job 1 at GM. Even though Malibu is fantastic, it still has the last gen Malibu polluting the streets and offering deathly resale value to scare potential buyers away. GM must work hard at releasing fantastic products, from bottom to top, that help people forget what was there before. That I beleive precludes cancelling Zeta, since Cadillac must be RWD, and there's no other suitable large car platform for that. Unless you want Cadillac to be Lincoln and enjoy seeing BMW raking in the profits!

Luxury cars are no where near as bad as GMT900s or even the Lambdas in gas mileage. Even a gas hog like the 550i gets the same mileage as an Enclave or Acadia AWD, and the 535i and CTS get the same mileage as the Malibu and better than a G8 V6. Although your point about congestion in cities is very valid, and there should be fuel efficient luxury cars for those that idle in cities a lot and never get on a highway. Mercedes has a 30 mpg S-class hybrid coming and a diesel hybrid S-class that gets mileage of a Prius coming, Lexus will have a hybrid over every vehicle they make in a few years. Jim Taylor said that Cadillac would wait to see how successful Mercedes is with diesels before they try it, that is a huge mistake.

The mild hybrid system is good for about 2 mpg, maybe 3. That would make a V6 G8 getting 20/27 mpg, not 30/45. Since the 2.2 Ecotec is rated at 22/31 in the Cobalt and less in the HHR, I think 24/36 out of a GM V6 is not going to happen. I would like to see a smaller DI V6 in the 3.0-3.2 liter range with 240-250 hp and better mileage than the 3.6 , because the 3.6 is thirsty for some reason and 245 hp is fine for most front drive cars.

Weight reduction is key, GM has lots of heavy cars.

[smk4565]

I am keen on seeing Zeta get a weight reduction and Ecoetec. I am also interested in seeing GM do all alluminum platforms for Caddy, in larger sedans, coupes, and sports cars, and based on Zeta fundamentals would be interesting. and could prove beneficial to lower forms of Zeta along with the lower brands.

I also would like to see Zeta Impala become a reality. GM must make this car happen, as it was said to be a game changer, and could heavily alter the perception of Chevy cars.

I agree here, they need a Zeta Impala that is better than the Genesis, better than any Buick or Pontiac.

I would love to see aluminum Cadillacs, but it is expensive, and GM struggles with building expensive sedans, and they probably don't think they can sell a $50-60,000 CTS. I have been going on for years about how Cadillac needs to go upmarket. The CTS should be on an aluminum frame, weigh 3600 pounds, 8-speed automatic and 305 hp V6 in the base model, if it costs $50,000 so be it. An E-class is $52,000 base price and they sell just fine.

[regfootball]

Wow the base V6 G8 is rated for only 17/25. Thats only one better than the much higher powered V8 model and poor by todays standards. The Saturn Aura and Malibu 3.6 engines are also rated low at 26 highway. Why is this engine so thirsty?

i think the new epa procedures are effed up badly. in the buick dealer this weekend was a base lucerne with the 3.8/4 pot powertrain and the numbers were 16/25. my FIL had the same combo in his last car (he just got an 08 grand prix last week!, and he's 82 or something) and he would get 30-33 on the highway, yet the lucerne only gets 16? BS!

[turbo200]

On the first point, smk, I am going on your normal form and saying I am beyond underwhelmed with the moves all kuxury carmakers are making to include hybrids in thier cars. As I said, I would be in favor of all luxury cars having some form of a hybrid system, standard. Luxury cars are already expensive, they can afford to take a hit in price, or to raise thier prices by just 1-2k. Luxury cars represent a huge, gargantuan piece of the pie of sales in Los Angeles, and I am squarely talking about the entry level luxury race. the G35, 3-series, C-class, IS all are huge sellers and represent populous choices in Los Angeles. Here, it's the common AMG model that gets heads turning and nods of approval, the standard C-class is this era's Cavalier, at least in LA. So, the issue is that of all those luxury cars, none of them can be called 'efficient'. Thier mainly excess mobiles and none have a focus on fuel economy that results in something better than mainstream cars. That could be a new territory luxury cars could explore.

On your second point, I am doing a bit of wishful thinking on the rating for the NA 3.2 DI, but that's because that's where I want to see GM go. fuel economy for ecotec is not stellar, and needs to get better, as do all GM 4 and 6 cylinder engines. As for the mild hybrid though, they've just announced improvements to the battery tech, so BAS II will have improved mileage, I guess stay tuned.

On your third point. Zeta anything is what we need here. Weight reduction is a must. But sometimes you have to love the one you're with, and Zeta can produce amazing large, premium sedans, which GM is in desperate need of. Anything to do with cars, GM is in desperate need of. As for the alluminum chassis bit, I think the next CTS still needs to aim mainstream, so with a sub-CTS Alpha sedan running the range of $29k-49k, this will give CTS room to improve content, improve quality, improve powertrain, offer variety powertrain choices, improve refinement, improve ride/handling, offer weight savings measures and be priced from $37k-55k. The one that should feature alluminum chassis is the 7-series competitor, along with any performance car Cadillac is looking into, aside from the entry level car.

[hyperv6]

to all you said hyperV6, only one thing to say is I am waiting with bated breath.

I hope so to everything you have to say.

I am keen on seeing Zeta get a weight reduction and Ecoetec. I am also interested in seeing GM do all alluminum platforms for Caddy, in larger sedans, coupes, and sports cars, and based on Zeta fundamentals would be interesting. and could prove beneficial to lower forms of Zeta along with the lower brands.

I also would like to see Zeta Impala become a reality. GM must make this car happen, as it was said to be a game changer, and could heavily alter the perception of Chevy cars.

The one sad thing I did leave out is that I am affraid of how much the cost will rise in 10 years to where it will be hard to afford anything.

He who sells the best car cheap will win. THis will be a hard challange.

Cost is more important than any HP rating or what wheel drive is offered. When most new car buyers buy a car based on how much the monthly payment is that should send a signal to all of us. Hyundia figured this out a while ago. Good car great warranty cheap price.

As much as I would like to see a Impala Zeta it will never be a game changer. The Impala will always be second to the new Malibu as the BU is now your volume market. Volume markets are where you make your money. A larger RWD Impala would never sell over 100,000 units a year.

If you sell the Impala too cheap you don't make money and if you sell it for too much people will move to more expensive brands. The Impala would have to sell below the G8 and there is little room.

Chevy=Value and the is little profit in a $27,000 Impala and few sales over $30,000. The G8 and CTS are lurking in this area already and the Malibu is around $25,000.

Chevy would be better suited taking the money amaking the Malibu a even better car and making the Camaro the RWD value coupe.

Chevy has too many models now.

[smk4565]

The compact entry level luxury cars aren't that bad in mileage, an Acura TL beats a Malibu V6, the MKZ is about the same, maybe 1 mpg better, the Audi A4 2.0 gets about 23-24 mpg, that is almost as good as the Cobalt. I think the problem GM has, is their luxury cars are all big, and they don't have small, premium cars like the Mini Cooper, Volvo C30, A4, IS20, etc. Personally, I wouldn't consider any of those cars, but for people that live in NY, or LA and are always in the city, not on highways or climbing hills, the power to economy ratio of those cars fits their needs.

The BTS better not be $29,000, Camrys cost that much. Cadillac needs to aim higher. At some point they need to compete with the 5-series and E-Class. Cadillac needs a mid level car, a $37,000 car interior won't match up the the $53,000 E350. Even if Zeta is the best platform GM has ever made (which I am not convinced of yet), will people pay $90-100,000 for a car built on it. Maybe if they can do Sigma II in steel for the CTS at $45k, they can do an aluminum version for a CLS-style STS that is $55-70k, and price the big car at $$85,000+.

[turbo200]

to take this thread deeper off point....

here is a cost analysis/market position for the various cars in the 20k-40k range, according to turbo:

malibu-larger EP II sedan, long wheelbase, total interior volume larger than current Impala 350k sales/year $20k-29

impala- zeta sedan built alongside camaro $25k-35k, variety engine choices, potential diesel availability

I say if they aren't going to do Impala zeta, don't bother doing it at all. Impala Epsilon would only encroach on Malibu too mcuh.

pontiac G6 Alpha $23k-32k RWD counterpart, BMW like ride characteristics, actual performance, upscale demeanor, basic G6 can be pretty basic

G8 $26k-35k in current positioning, only offering more equipment, and three engine choices, keep the V8 reserved for a more expensive G8, starting at $33k. base engine choice should be a smaller V6

Pontiac, and GM on a whole need to start figuring out that great press and great customer word of mouth create buzz. they need to get with the program and start making real driver's cars. Cars like the 1-series, and all of BMW's lineup has been built on massive interest and appeal of great driving cars. the same can be said of honda, that one key reason they have such loyal buyers is because the level of driver interaction is unparalleled in thier price class.

Buick Lacrosse $30k-$44k the upcoming concept will be the judge of how well Buick's newest sedan can be positioned in the prime entry level lux sedan category this could potentially make up for some CTS buyers looking for a cheap luxury sedan

Sub Lacrosse Regal/Skylark $24k-34k fairly compact, very well damped, executive compact with luxury positioning\

zeta Buick stately, curvaceous, elegant, strong $42k-55k to attract DTS customers [you will need the right kind of elegant stand out bold design, original, but drawing on the right Buicks of the past that had presence and luxury]

Cadillac [has to take baby steps in moving upmarket, so the next generation should be priced even slightly higher]

Caddy must take great steps to continue to hone in on what it's market potential is, where the ride/handling balance should go, the design reach the brand should have. The ride/handling tradeoff is crucial. they need to go even higher than what they did with CTS, they must go for the gold standard and continue to reach the point BMW has so well marked for itself.

B-series $29k-44k must offer incredible original Caddy style, something bold and different, yet in keeping with current themes. must be an incredible car to drive.

C-series $37k-55k[must move upmarket. the price class must fit the size class, Cadillac can still be cheaper mid sedan just not as cheap as it is now, this can allow premium feel of 'CTS' to improve above what it is now.

D-series $50k-70k GM must make this sedan truly great and awe-inspiring. None of the corner cutting or half-baked feel of the STS. This must be a car not price-pointed in development, instead developed, refined, precisely maintained, with a complete air of quality and solidarity to compete. Remember you are going against cars that have a reputation for durability in the form of S-class, 7-series, etc. Even though they may be considered 'unreliable' to many here, these cars give a sense of stupendous durability, longevity in thier drive along with the substance of the parts, aura of quality.

So, to me, there is room for Impala.

Edited April 8, 2008 by turbo200

[turbo200]

The BTS better not be $29,000, Camrys cost that much. Cadillac needs to aim higher. At some point they need to compete with the 5-series and E-Class. Cadillac needs a mid level car, a $37,000 car interior won't match up the the $53,000 E350. Even if Zeta is the best platform GM has ever made (which I am not convinced of yet), will people pay $90-100,000 for a car built on it. Maybe if they can do Sigma II in steel for the CTS at $45k, they can do an aluminum version for a CLS-style STS that is $55-70k, and price the big car at $$85,000+.

the problem I see with moving Caddy so upscale so fast, is that, so far, GMs engineers don't seem up to the task. Whether it's the quality of materials, the refinement of powertrain, refinement of suspension, steering feel.....CTS doesn't seem to measure up to cars like the 5-series in total. Those cars keep moving up the price ladder, and they keep getting better and better, but CTS does feel much more like an entry level car than those.

Also, the point you mentioned that Zeta doesn't seem like a platform that could command upwards of $70k pricing. It's not that it couldn't but this would be left to the details of the design and quality. Engineering the platform would be the first imperative and would have to be there to be able to compete. I think the platform, the drive and ride could potentially be $70k-class, but what about the rest. GM has only proven they can do great detailing on concept cars, as far as I'm concerned.

Then there's the issue of GM wanting to position the Zeta sedan to retain DTS buyers, so while we're offering conjecture on an LS430-priced Caddy, GM seems intent on cheaping out and attracting the lower scale buyers.

[hyperv6]

I would like to see all Chevy cars stay under $30K accept the Camaro and Vette.

Chevy should be the milage leader and Value leader.

If you want a nicer FWD go to Saturn.

IF you want RWD Zeta and Alpha performance or one FWD Mini Cooper like adult performance car you buy Pontiac. 4-5 car is all you need with several special sub models. The G8 is a good example with a Sedan, Ute and Possible coupe none of which Chevy sells. The same could be done with the Alpha.

If you want a near Luxury car of SUV You buy Buick. Again 4-5 vehicles are all you need.

Luxury Cadillac all the way.

Right now if you take away the Fleet sales and just dropped the Impala as it is it would be missed little. The Bu could fill this area well with a Police package and taxi package. The money taken from the Impala and used to improve the Malibu and replace the Cobalt with a true Civic beater would fill sales sheet at GM once they convince the public they are worhty cars. Building a better car is not enough you have to prove it now.

[turbo200]

it's the negative perception that GM is battling that affects them the most. the perception there cars are all for rentals, all offer substandard quality/parts/feel......these are the things GM has to overcome. Then comes the beast which is getting people to think the American cars are as reliable as the Japanese cars. But first you have to get people to be convinced the feel is the same. Right now the difference in feel in the parts, I'm talking all the way from the engine to the ride to the quality of the parts to the way the door shuts to the quality of the sculpting of the exterior design, the difference from a cobalt to a civic is drastic. and so is the price, as such it should be. this applies neatly to almost every GM car.

most buyers don't keep thier cars as long as they used to, the longevity issue becomes less of a 'is my car going to breakdown' issue, to a 'it should never breakdown since I'm only going to keep if for 5-6 years at the most, BUT throughout that time it needs to hold up and keep me feeling good about it'

as for chevy they have expensive as hell trucks, they are a mainstream brand like toyota, and as such they can afford one premium car in the form of zeta impala.

saturn is an anomaly, and a better positioning as well as target needs to be reached there. they are stepping on too many toes right now. I can sorta see them as the complete euro experience now, but that's where saab is, and saturn doesn't have the cachet for that. by complete euro experience I mean including the euro prices, the euro quality, the euro feel. basically what you have with the astra now here, except extended to more models, more powertrain choice, more euro.

or they can just keep on stepping on everyone's toes until GM has money and time to figure out what to do with them.

I agree with you on the 4-5 models, and my plan above only calls for that

Edited April 8, 2008 by turbo200

[smk4565]

Or you can kill off the Pontiac or Buick brands that are dying anyway and there is all sorts of room to sell Impalas at $26-35k. Factor in inflation also, every car has gone up in price, by 2011 $30k for an Impala won't be that much, the Avalon and 300C run near $40,000 now.

A Buick sedan priced the same as a Cadillac sedan won't work, Buick is not a luxury brand. Cadillc does have to move up market though, they are really close to being Lincoln or Acura in their current form. The D-series car at 50-70k won't compete with the 7-series or S-class. That is what an E-class costs. They have to engineer the hell out of the DTS and put in leather, carpet, wood and aluminum in the interior, all that costs money. The VW Phaeton (though a flop) was engineered with 10 parameters, one of which, was that the car had to be able to go 180 mph, in 122 degree heat while maintaining and interior temperature of 71.6 degrees.

The name DTS won't work, that is what 74 year olds buy, I'll call it ULS (not fond of that name either) for now. The ULS should have 4 seats that move a minimum of 14 ways, heated, cooled and message in all 4. The top speed of the V8 (or V12) model should be over 200 mph (yes faster than a Z06), the door hinges should be able to support 400 pounds of weight, the base car should get over 25 mpg in the city or 25 mpg avg, 65 or less dBA interior sound at 70 mph. Rust warranty should be 14 year/unlimited miles, bumper to bumper warranty of 7 years/100k miles. The S-class has 35 years of engineering behind it, Cadillac needs to start catching up. The ULS needs to aim higher than anything GM has ever built. Lexus is rumored to be doing a 500+ hp V12 engine for the LS, could be a hybrid V12 also.

[turbo200]

Enclave is proving that Buick can command luxury car pricing. Enclave has given Buick waiting lists and shown them what passion for design really means.

if you go back and reread my post, I am making it clear Cadillac is a brand in transition, and as such they can't go for the full price yet like BMW and MB can, they need to establish a base and a principle. They need to be cohesive and the brand has to stand for something. Look at Audi and you're beginning to see a picture of what the brand stands for. I totally agree on your point about the Phaeton, it's this kind of thinking that Cadillac has to have to set it apart. You can't just go around expecting people to pay $70k for your sedan when there are damn near perfect sedans for that price point from companies that have proven why you pay that much for them.

I'm not advocating the name DTS, just calling it what they are. although a simple, B, C, D lineup works pretty well for Cadillac, I think.

AS for the rumors of ongoing development at the other companies, let's put it this way, Toyota was in the black and a positive of $10 billion for the year just a year ago, GM as a whole was in the red I believe. The other companies are going to be far ahead in R&D.

[smk4565]

it's the negative perception that GM is battling that affects them the most. the perception there cars are all for rentals, all offer substandard quality/parts/feel......these are the things GM has to overcome. Then comes the beast which is getting people to think the American cars are as reliable as the Japanese cars. But first you have to get people to be convinced the feel is the same. Right now the difference in feel in the parts, I'm talking all the way from the engine to the ride to the quality of the parts to the way the door shuts to the quality of the sculpting of the exterior design, the difference from a cobalt to a civic is drastic. and so is the price, as such it should be. this applies neatly to almost every GM car.

This is a major problem, I agree. GM designs a lot of cars knowing it will take a rebate to sell it. This is why I think they should go all out on the ULS and make it the best sedan on the planet. Lexus plans to sell 1 million vehicles by 2011, and they may be able to do it because Toyota has $8 billion a year to spend on R&D and they can easily give $3 billion of that to Lexus. GM has 6.5 billion to spend, if they give $3 billion to Cadillac, only 3.5 billion is left for Saturn/Opel/Vauxhaul, Chevy, Pontiac/Holden. Buick, GMC, Saab, Hummer all combined.

GM has to pick which battles to fight, they can't compete in every segment, but I would rather see them spread their cars over more segments, like building ultra luxury cars, a minivan, etc, rather than 4 Lambdas, 5 $20-28k front drive sedans, 6 GMT900s, etc.

Since this is about fuel efficient Pontiacs, they should sell more Vibes, it gets good mileage. They can sell them to Avis and Enterprise like crazy, maybe bring down that resale on them.

[banrdr98]

Why is no one talking about weight. Fuel economy could be gained by putting all GM vehicles on a serious diet. If you do not think this will work just take a look at the Corvette's engine size, fuel economy and weight.

[hyperv6]

Why is no one talking about weight. Fuel economy could be gained by putting all GM vehicles on a serious diet. If you do not think this will work just take a look at the Corvette's engine size, fuel economy and weight.

Less weight is a given. Replacing the Zeta with a wide ranging Alpha woulf cust about 200-600 pounds because of size and weight saving features not used in the Zeta due to keeping cost down.

We also expect more light weight metals and composits, they too will add to the cost.

The goverment is driving the CAFE average but will not let the crash ratings slip. So while saving weight in some areas it will not be cheap in others.

Even the move to more 4 and six cylinder engines will save some weight but not as much as in the past since the V8 LS engines are very light now compared to some 32 Valve V8's.

[Blake Noble]

Why is no one talking about weight. Fuel economy could be gained by putting all GM vehicles on a serious diet. If you do not think this will work just take a look at the Corvette's engine size, fuel economy and weight.

Why isn't anyone talking about weight? Well, from what I gather, 7,000 way seats are far more important! :rotflmao:

[avro206]

put me down for a DI 3.6L/6 speed auto G8

Ethanol is just plain stupid. It costs more energy to make the stuff then it produces and takes away production of food (for consumption)--drives up prices too

[turbo200]

Less weight is a given. Replacing the Zeta with a wide ranging Alpha woulf cust about 200-600 pounds because of size and weight saving features not used in the Zeta due to keeping cost down.

Hearing GM talk about flexible architectures makes me cringe. Look at where it's gotten us in the past. Epsilon was supposed to be flexible, Sigma was supposed to be flexible. Zeta is flexible and isn't being used here.....

GM promising flexibility from an architecture is like GM promising to consistently refresh/update models....doesn't hold a lot of water.

[gm4life]

Simple...

Pontiac

Motors:

1.8L I4 DOHC 125-135hp (possible Hybrid on G5) G5, Vibe (so it has a GM motor)

2.0L I4 DOHC DI Turbo 260hp Solstice GXP, maybe G5 GXP

2.4L I4 DI 185-205hp Solstice, Vibe, G6, G5, Torrent (possible Hybrid on G6 and Torrent)

3.2L V6 DI 250-260hp G6, Torrent

3.6L V6 DI 280-300hp G8 Sedan, G8 Wagon, G8 Ute

6.0L V8 AFM E85 360-380hp G8, (GTO)

6.2L V8 AFM E85 430-450hp G8, (GTO)

Cars:

G5 Sedan/Coupe 1.8/2.4/possible Turbo GXP FWD small efficent car (like sporty Cobalt) **also hybrid**

Vibe Wagon 1.8/2.4 (GM Motors Please) small efficent wagon

G6 Couple/Vert/Sedan 2.4/3.2/3.6 in GXP with FWD midsize efficent-sporty **also hybrid**

Solstice Hardtop/Vert 2.4/2.0 DI on both motors, GXP with Turbo, keep fresh and efficent small sportster

Torrent AWD/FWD 2.4/3.2 Hybrid and instead of the baby GMC Theta (makes since for Pontiac to have a CUV than GMC)

G8 Sedan/Wagon/Ute 3.6/6.0/6.2 what it is now basically

GTO sporty midsize-large performance coupe 6.0/6.2

That is how to fix Pontiac... Very simple.

As for Buick...

Skylark/Excelle w/Hybrid

LaX/Regal w/Hybrid

Lucerne

Park Ave

Enclave w/Hybrid

E85 is not the solution but spreading it to run on DOHC engine is a good idea. Every single car I listed would have at least a 5spd automatic if not a 6spd.

As for Cadillac...

BLS (entry level think TSX) w/Hybrid Sedan, Coupe

CTS (mid level think 3 Series) w/Hybrid Coupe, Wagon, Vert, Sedan

DTS (large FWD car unique market niche don't get rid of it or the Lucerne on new large FWD platform) V8 engines only but efficent OHV or OHC doesn't matter **needs six speed autos** Sedan only

FTS (LS killer) no expense spared 55K and up car

BRX (think RDX) w/Hybrid

SRX (like now but revamped) w/Hybrid

Escalade, EXT, ESV w/Hybrid

That would take care of them as for Chevrolet a new Cobalt, a new RWD Impala would be nice since the new 'Bu is doing so well, I said I would wait to make that call and I did. The Impala is not needed. If they want a traditional fullsize in FWD go to the DTS/Lucerne. And keep everything fresh, they need a new small truck and a I4 and a V6 no freaking 5 banger please! Add 6spd. autos to ALL GMT-900's pull out the 4.3L V6 and replace with Atlas I6 please. Then get rid of the 4.8 since the Atlas as almost as much power the 5.3 is better on fuel. Same for trucks goes to GMC.

As for Saturn keep stealing Opel/Euro stuff.

Saab keep progressing foward.

Hummer better fuel economy, 6spd. autos or better H2, H3 and new smaller Wrangler like H4.

That would be my GM.

[smk4565]

Can't make a front drive Cadillac, the biggest Cadillac has to cost at least $80,000, priced in the 50s will make it a bust like the STS was.

GM needs diesels, a BMW 335d has the same 0-60 time as a CTS DI, more quiet than an Enclave and better gas mileage than a Cobalt. The problem is diesel is $4.30 a gallon, but that is a supply issue, not a cost of production issue. Diesel is cheaper to make than gas, there just aren't any refineries for it. Automakers, plus the Gov't that wants higher mileage needs to push for more diesel production capacity.

If they kill Hummer all together, that helps CAFE, instead of spending $4+ billion a year on Saab to generate $3.5 billion in revenue, they can kill that off, and put that $4 billion into fuel saving and weight reduction technology. Saturn sales are down, even with the all new lineup, if they stay in a slump, they could kill this brand, make the Astra a Pontiac, Vue a GMC, Sky could go to Chevy (or dumped, they have the Solstice) don't need the Aura with the Malibu being same size, price and content, don't need the Outlook.

The problem with GM4life's Cadillac plan is the 3-series is an entry level car, a Mercedes E-class is a mid level car. If the CTS is mid-level it should be $53-70,000. The FTS (not sure why F) to be an LS killer would have to be near $100k. A LS600h is $120,000 and there is supposedly a V12 hybrid version coming that makes 500+ hp.

Cadillac's flagship should have an interior as good as or better than the S-class, 197 inch long in regular length, 203 inch long for the long wheelbase version. Aluminum frame and all with 8-speed auto and these engines:

2.9 liter turbo diesel V6 + hybrid (key for both CAFE and NY, L.A., London, etc)

4.5 liter turbo diesel V8 + hybrid

4.2-4.6 liter twin turbo (or supercharged) DOHC V8 + 2-mode hybrid (has to be all new, not based on Northstar)

5.8 liter turbo diesel V12 +hybrid

I would be fine with them using a light hybrid system with the diesels since the diesels would already see a big mpg gain over the gas versions. The light hybrid system may help keep weight down, so it could be the better way to go when paired with the diesel engine.

[avro206]

yeah a few good diesels in the right application. On a side note---around here all I see are domestic diesel trucks--I know they have gotten quieter over the years but they are still pretty loud.

Sawa VW Toueg with the V10 Diesel---it was very quiet. We need an eqaulivalaint passenger car diesel here.

A delta with a Turbo-Diesel would be great---I'd love to have 240lbs-ft in mine

Direct injection every where and some more Turbos--on V6's can take the place of some V8s.

[hyperv6]

Hearing GM talk about flexible architectures makes me cringe. Look at where it's gotten us in the past. Epsilon was supposed to be flexible, Sigma was supposed to be flexible. Zeta is flexible and isn't being used here.....

GM promising flexibility from an architecture is like GM promising to consistently refresh/update models....doesn't hold a lot of water.

Zeta was more flexable than we have been showen. The only problem is CAFE has gotten in the way before we saw all it could be. .

Zeta has given us wagons, sedans large and small with long and short wheel base., coupes, trucks 4 door trucks and other models not shown. GM went with this car being heavy to save weight. They gambled and lost long term but won short term with lower prices for us now.

With Alpha I can see many of the same plaforms coming as on the Zeta but just a little smaller and lighter.

Edited April 9, 2008 by hyperv6

[turbo200]

Zeta was more flexable than we have been showen. The only problem is CAFE has gotten in the way before we saw all it could be. .

Zeta has given us wagons, sedans large and small with long and short wheel base., coupes, trucks 4 door trucks and other models not shown. GM went with this car being heavy to save weight. They gambled and lost long term but won short term with lower prices for us now.

With Alpha I can see many of the same plaforms coming as on the Zeta but just a little smaller and lighter.

as is usual with GM, it's just another 5 years for truly exciting cars. instead of giving the public good product now and not making shareholders suffer the cost they constantly do with squandered opportunities; they'd rather wait another 5 years to have even more market share stolen from under them.

[loki]

as is usual with GM, it's just another 5 years for truly exciting cars. instead of giving the public good product now and not making shareholders suffer the cost they constantly do with squandered opportunities; they'd rather wait another 5 years to have even more market share stolen from under them.

...other than the Volt...but that's being pushed as hard if not harder than Kappa was.

[hyperv6]

as is usual with GM, it's just another 5 years for truly exciting cars. instead of giving the public good product now and not making shareholders suffer the cost they constantly do with squandered opportunities; they'd rather wait another 5 years to have even more market share stolen from under them.

I don't know about you but I find the new G8 variations, Camaro, HHR Turbo, Solstice GXP and Sky Red Line, Malibu, Cobalt SS Tubo, Aura, Any Vette, Enclave/Arcadia and the new New CTS and STS all very interesting and exciting.

With the Lutz cars coming out anymore every new intro is exciting. I have seen only future progress of late and only more to come once cars like the G5 and G6 are replaced.

I see cars like the G8 Ute as a move to make things no one else offers and lead into a market. There are a hell of a lot of Elcomino's here in the mid west just waiting to be replace. The owners keep them going as they can't buy new ones. There will be more new models to come to lead into new markets soon.

I just see in the future just more better built GM cars. I also see where some fear the loss of the V8 as an end but I see a new start with some lighter, better handling and stopping cars with some serious turo power.

GM now is offering better cars than they have in decades and will only build on that.

Now if I was a Chrysler fan the future is a little more as you discibed.

Edited April 9, 2008 by hyperv6

[turbo200]

I don't know about you but I find the new G8 variations, Camaro, HHR Turbo, Solstice GXP and Sky Red Line, Malibu, Cobalt SS Tubo, Aura, Any Vette, Enclave/Arcadia and the new New CTS and STS all very interesting and exciting.

With the Lutz cars coming out anymore every new intro is exciting. I have seen only future progress of late and only more to come once cars like the G5 and G6 are replaced.

I see cars like the G8 Ute as a move to make things no one else offers and lead into a market. There are a hell of a lot of Elcomino's here in the mid west just waiting to be replace. The owners keep them going as they can't buy new ones. There will be more new models to come to lead into new markets soon.

I just see in the future just more better built GM cars. I also see where some fear the loss of the V8 as an end but I see a new start with some lighter, better handling and stopping cars with some serious turo power.

GM now is offering better cars than they have in decades and will only build on that.

Now if I was a Chrysler fan the future is a little more as you discibed.

fine then, I guess it's just me and my grudge because we were promised RWD en masse and we're not going to get it.

in all seriousness though, it's hard to deny they've made definite huge strides, and the Lutz effect is obviously paying off. But we still have a long way to go, and even the Lutz effect has some misfires, such as the total interior quality of both CTS and Malibu, and in my view some questionable design decisions, when others are going for perfection and cohesion. I love the Malibu in and out and think it's perfect, but with the CTS they strove too hard to incorporate the arced C-pillar from older Caddys, like the original Seville, and well that's one questionable design decision. There are others with other cars, like the Enclave. this can't continue to happen in a day when others are making truly beautiful and breathtaking designs, others that were already ahead in the first place.

but asking for perfection is not asking for too much. Zeta could still lead to fantastic mass market, premium sedans for Buick and Chevy. I know in general the market is moving towards smaller cars, but there will still be holdouts for larger cars, and other carmakers will look for innovative ways to maintain gas mileage in profit stalwarts like trucks and expensive cars, so why doesn't GM?

We're still in the fleshing out the lineup and flushing out the doosies stage. need i remind anyone of the catastophic failure that is the lacrosse? so i take issue with your list because you've listed a lot of great cars that are out of reach for average buyers. First I don't agree with STS, I don't think it's exciting. CTS on the other hand truly is a wonderful entry level luxury sedan [there is a problem with that statement but I'll leave that for another day]. Malibu is a spectacular success, but there are issues that will need to be improved upon that I beleive are being addressed, principally interior quality and spaciousness, and I know those will be addressed. G8 Ute is cool, but why do we have to wait so long? Camaro will be cool, really can't wait for that one [potential new Camaro buyer]. Aura lacks execution compared to Malibu, but is still a great car [must get better to compete in the most competitive segment in the market]. Acadia is fabulous, but Lambda as a whole does a shortcoming that makes it less appealing to me, the weight. That won't affect the overall market acceptance too much though, and the Acadia is really like a replacement for the old Grand Cherokee, with 3 rows of seats. Look at an Acadia and then compare it to the old GC and you'll see what I'm talking about: simple, straightforward, chunky, strong, and finally a dash of class amidst ruggedness. Enclave is less successful, much less, but still a high point for GM.

The others you listed are either niche cars that won't have much of a real affect for GM except for elevating those particular models, or they're cars that simply don't meet my standards for exciting cars.

It's that the lineup is still so far in limbo combined with the fact that looking into the future there will be at least 3 significant debuts cut from the lineup because of the Zeta cuts. Again, if this were another automaker, they would have figured out how to be innovative and just get the product out there. Not everybody can do large cars well, so the market is small but very uncontested, and the right ingredients have shown success, while others have clearly failed to understand what large car buyers are looking for. I had a vision for Impala, Lucerne, Velite, GTO.....and GM has one in concept form, that all could have worked. Could have is operative, with the right ingredients all these cars would have elevated thier prospective brands, and the platform is there, the investment has been made. Now the brands will have to wait another half decade to get those kinds of cars, or not

[hyperv6]

GM is going in the right direction.

They are getting more hits than misses and all the while with Lutz trying to revamp GM with one arm tied behind his back with ever changing goverment regs.

They will be alright and we will get much of what we want but have to understand we will never get all we want. That is life no matter what your drealing with.

GM is a large company but they too can only afford to revamp lines as they can afford them and have to address the ones that pay the bills first. Pick ups and the new Malibu are much more important than the Lacrosse. In time this will be corected too along with the G6.

Uncle Bob is trying to do a 100 Billion dollar job on only a few billion while they change the rules of the game at every turn. This is not a good time for a faint of heart product planner. Kind of like trying to build a house of cars only to have some blow hard come and keep trying to knock it down.

Talk in the last 2 years has gone from will GM survive to will they regain #1 over Toyota in the future. I think this shows how much has been gained but there is still much more to do.

Rick and Bob has done a Damn good job with all they have faced. Few in the industry could have done any better with what they have faced and were given to work with.

GM will come back, it will not just happen over the next year but the next 10 if they choose well and get the majority of this right. Each new product and line is another step up. Toyota did not get where they are at in one year. IF you want the top prize you have to earn it.

[gm4life]

FTS-Fleetwood Touring Sedan

Note Cadillac sells as well as it does in part due to the value/luxury/performance combo. Just jacking the price and content levels might not work so well. Cadillac is suppose to be a car a working man can aspire to someday. (I could own another new Caddy if they keep pricing similar.) The max Cadillac can charge currently for a non-V Series is about 70K. (Except Escalade) Keeping the DTS/Lucerne FWD makes since it is a niche in the market, why would we want all the sales going to Toyota on the Avalon or ES Series? The Lucerne and DTS are actually very impressive cars, but need a 6spd. auto and some-updating. I think a full re-vamp and update/new platform could make the large FWD lux segment boom again. Just give it CTS-ish styling. Cadillac competes on price disagree with me or not, but traditional Caddy buyers (myself included, I have owned a DeVille loved it!) would have no place to go. Nor Buick Lucerne buyers. If I want RWD I would go with a G8 or new Impala that is coming. I am not going to buy a RWD STS when I can get a V8 standard in a DTS that is just as nice of a car for less. A loaded DTS with out Platinum package goes around 52K or less with rebates that is pretty resonable. A Platinum hits around 57K in a STS you push it well up into the 65K and up bracket. (Getting way too high.) (Sure a DTS is a bit more boring but still some-what fun to drive.) It is alot of car for your money if you want luxury and style and don't need sub 6 second runs to sixty. (7-8 is plenty fast for a luxo-boat.) BTS (FWD), CTS (RWD), DTS (FWD), FTS (RWD) would be my car line-up for them. Two FWD'ers for value and tradition-lists and two RWD's for the people that want a performance luxury car.

[hyperv6]

I have spent some time in my Mother in laws DTS.

It is a nice car and even much nicer than her past Lincolns. I could live with the power and the softer ride but the FWD has to go. There is no FWD car worth paying over $35K for.

I just pray when they combine the DTS and STS we don't get a STD.

No I would have no problem with the DTS going more Luxury and less performance but it has to be in the vein of the Lexus and Mecedes Luxury. This is what the buying public wants. The blue haired old ladies nad the old men in Boca Vista with space pens [go on Jerry keep the pen] will just have to adapt as most will only buy on or less more Cadillacs in their life time vs the guy in his 40's that may buy 5-10.

[smk4565]

If the next LaCrosse is a fancy Malibu in the $27-37k range, then they don't need the Lucerne and that is GM's answer to the ES350 and Avalon. If they have to, they can do a 25-33k Malibu sized LaCrosse and a 4-5 inch longer version on the same platform at 30-37k for the Lucerne, but it seems like overlap to me. G-body can't fit the 6-speed, Epsilon is the only front drive GM platform that can, if they make an Epsilon Cadillac I won't ever step foot in a Cadillac dealership again. Front wheel drive cars are not worth over $40k. The good V6s are powerful enough to torque steer like crazy and the ride/handling of anything front drive will never be as good as a $40k+ rear drive car.

Cadillac's problem is they are the value luxury brand, people buy a luxury car for prestige and because of the features/performance of it, not because it is cheap and the common man has one. The Alpha Cadillac can be priced where the CTS is now, everything else they make should be over $45k.

GM is too invested in trucks, they put their R&D and marketing money into trucks and now trucks aren't selling and they don't have enough cars that are winners or fuel efficient options. What's worse is it will take the 4 years to react to what the market is demanding now. GM has sold 843 hybrids in 2008, that is pathetic. They don't have any diesel plans either, when a midsize diesel sedan could easily get 28 mpg and still be sporty.

What frustrates me is, I think the Silverado, Yukon, Tahoe, etc will keep getting made with their big V8s, but to compensate in CAFE they will make all wimpy 4 cylinder rental cars. So Cadillac will be stuck with V6s only, so they can make 14 mpg trucks that need $6000 rebates to sell.

[gm4life]

Cadillac is not gonna get stuck with sixes trust me.

[smk4565]

Cadillac is not gonna get stuck with sixes trust me.

Where's the V8? They killed the Ultra, and the LS3 isn't the answer.

[Blake Noble]

Where's the V8? They killed the Ultra, and the LS3 isn't the answer.

Why do you even bother?

And it is not an LS3. It is an LSA. :AH-HA_wink:

[SuperSport623]

Why do you even bother?

And it is not an LS3. It is an LSA. :AH-HA_wink:

t34 pu$4r0d$ @r3 f0r te4 $ux0rz!

Screw that, gimmie a loud, brawney, muscley LS motor in a cushy, comfy caddy.. perfect example of contrast!