What's your beef with Toyota?

[Guest aatbloke]

Maybe because they DON'T sale them in Japan. Japan restricts sales of foriegn automoblies in there country, or did you not know this.

Really? I'm referring to the Taurus which Ford sold there for several years before it flopped. Then there was the Explorer, the Lincoln Town Car, the Mustang, and the Lincoln Continental - and that's just from Ford of America.

If the Americans bothered to build a car that was suitable to the Japanese mainstream, perhaps they'd show more interest.

[deftonesfan867]

Really? I'm referring to the Taurus which Ford sold there for several years before it flopped. Then there was the Explorer, the Lincoln Town Car, the Mustang, and the Lincoln Continental - and that's just from Ford of America.

If the Americans bothered to build a car that was suitable to the Japanese mainstream, perhaps they'd show more interest.

Oh I see, using the past huh....

[Camino LS6]

Guys:

This has been a good thread, don't ruin it now.

I don't want to lock this one.

Take a breath, think the next post through and be civil.

[Guest aatbloke]

which is the opninion of 11 out of 74 people who probably didnt even bother to post. i myself am counted with the majority on this poll

Just under 10% according to the poll results above. Imagine if 10% of the Japanese car-buying populace decided to rush out and buy an Explorer. I wonder what the "beef" would be then?

Edited April 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[LosAngeles]

This entire thread was designed to put down the Japanese.

It blossomed into that, if you ask me. I'm well aware many folks don't have a glowing opinion of Toyota, so I made the poll to see exactly why, and of course included a dissenting opinion, "I don't have a problem with Toyota at all," because I know many here don't have issue with Toyota.

This site is registered to and read by not only diehard General fans, but Ford freaks, Honda heads, Chrysler crazies, and yessir, even folks who historically love Toyotas.

Having an issue with Toyota doesn't mean you dislike them, the Japanese, etc. Though some have expressed that as well, and hey, at least they admitted it.

Minds may not be changed here, but at least the round table was here to speak in specifics at.

Imagine of 10% of the Japanese car-buying populace decided to rush out and buy an Explorer. I wonder what the "beef" would be then?

Explorers disgust me, LOL...

Now, substitute Edge for Explorer.....we'd have something then.

Edited April 4, 2008 by LosAngeles

[Guest aatbloke]

Oh I see, using the past huh....

Give me one American car which the Japanese urban dweller will be itching to trade their March, Cube, or Vitz in for.

Edited April 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

It blossomed into that, if you ask me. I'm well aware many folks don't have a glowing opinion of Toyota, so I made the poll to see exactly why, and of course included a dissenting opinion, "I don't have a problem with Toyota at all," because I know many here don't have issue with Toyota.

This site is registered to and read by not only diehard General fans, but Ford freaks, Honda heads, Chrysler crazies, and yessir, even folks who historically love Toyotas.

Having an issue with Toyota doesn't mean you dislike them, the Japanese, etc. Though some have expressed that as well, and hey, at least they admitted it.

Minds may not be changed here, but at least the round table was here to speak in specifics at.

Exactly.

[Camino LS6]

Here's a curious bit.

The Japanese are actually crazy over American classic cars, there is huge money involved.

How's that for some irony?

[cletus8269]

well coming home from the charlotte auto fair i saw an oriental lady driving a ford expedition on I-85

[Guest aatbloke]

Here's a curious bit.

The Japanese are actually crazy over American classic cars, there is huge money involved.

How's that for some irony?

Yes they are. there's a huge sub-culture in Japan in love with all things American. Rock 'n' roll and fifties Americana are big business there. Same goes for the UK and Scandinavia.

[regfootball]

When is the last time GM had a class leading car? Intrigue? Before or after that?

this ain't a GM thread and the point is toyota gets way too much love for building middle of the road cars.

[regfootball]

What's your beef with fleeting vehicles? I have purchased 2 used vehicles from fleets before and had great success with each. Saved a ton of money. I probably wouldn't have bought an Intrepid if I hadn't rented one first.

the reason i bought a diamante (2 of them, very lightly used actually) was because we had one for a rental in CA/Napa for a week one time and i really liked the car. the runner up at the time was a saturn L series 4 cylinder 5 speed manual, new.

Edited April 5, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

"Class-leading can mean a multitude of different things. If you encapsulate all the possible meanings, then yes, they have.

toyota has never been priced low

they rarely have styling advantages

their interiors are sterile

handling has been iffy

engines have been good and fuel efficient but none have stood out like say, a Nissan VQ

their dealers and service have not been the best

realibility? sludge, trannies, cracked frames, busted tailgates, high repair costs

i am still wondering. has toyota ever had a CLASS LEADING CAR?

like a 3 series, or an accord, etc.

[Guest aatbloke]

toyota has never been priced low

they rarely have styling advantages

their interiors are sterile

handling has been iffy

engines have been good and fuel efficient but none have stood out like say, a Nissan VQ

their dealers and service have not been the best

realibility? sludge, trannies, cracked frames, busted tailgates, high repair costs

i am still wondering. has toyota ever had a CLASS LEADING CAR?

like a 3 series, or an accord, etc.

Let me just reiterate.

The question was if they have sold a class-leading car in the USA. Yes? Good.

I said the term "class-leading" can mean a multitude of different things. That statement did NOT mean that Toyota excels in all of them.

One such meaning does relate to sales, and as I said, in THAT REGARD Toyota have had a class-leading product in the States.

That's as viable an answer as any other. Why? Because the term "class-leading" is largely subjective.

[The O.C.]

i am still wondering. has toyota ever had a CLASS LEADING CAR?

Well, I think since none of us will ever be able to agree on what "class-leading" means.....I'd have to revert to sales numbers....and yes....the Camry is undoubtably "class-leading."

No other midsize sedan sells more....

[Blake Noble]

My, the air in here is thick!

[regfootball]

Let me just reiterate.

The question was if they have sold a class-leading car in the USA. Yes? Good.

I said the term "class-leading" can mean a multitude of different things. That statement did NOT mean that Toyota excels in all of them.

One such meaning does relate to sales, and as I said, in THAT REGARD Toyota have had a class-leading product in the States.

That's as viable an answer as any other. Why? Because the term "class-leading" is largely subjective.

good then GM has built tons of class leading vehicles too

[Guest aatbloke]

good then GM has built tons of class leading vehicles too

Of course they have. But the original question was this (and I quote): "I am still wondering. Has Toyota ever had a class-leading car?" That particular question doesn't really implicate GM or anyone else, does it? I may be wrong, but I gathered that you were actually referring to Toyota; you never know, possibly in response to the topic of the thread.

Edited April 5, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

My, the air in here is thick!

It seems to be. I think some of the posters are up there, too.

[CARBIZ]

I go away for a few hours and it's always the same one or two people picking fights with everyone else. Sheesh. I used to haunt ToyotaNation but gave it up because I didn't agree with anything they said. They are entitled to their opinions, but posting on there was like pissing into the wind. If I want a pointless argument that goes nowhere fast, I can always call up my ex-BF - now that really gets the juices flowing!

It doesn't matter what exactly is 'class leading.' I am sick of hearing this $h! about 'class leading.' History is strewn with the wreckage of 'class leading' companies (and countries, for that matter.)

General Motors breakaway success in the '40s was not by being all things to all people, but by being different things to different people. Henry Ford stubbornly stuck to the idea of one or two basic models and even fought modernizing his paint plants - to his company's peril, it turned out. General Motors initial success involved simple things like paint choices and fancy names for trim level. They also learned how to market their vehicles more effectively than anyone else.

When I perused the order guides of our (former) Toyota stores, it always struck me as arrogant that both Toyota and Honda package everything up into 2, maybe 3 trim levels of each model and that's it. Take it or leave it. Now that doesn't sound like any way to maintain choice and individuality, does it? Is is more cost effective, however.

This is the sort of hubris that is going to bring Japan Inc. down. Maybe the old fossils that are running Toyota back in Japan are succumbing to the disease that many of the old fossils running Ford and GM in Detroit have succumbed to: "well, I wouldn't want to drive that, so nobody else will either."

AND IT IS NOT RACIST TO SAY SOMEONE DOES NOT LIKE JAPANESE CARS. That is just ridiculous. It's always the 800 lb elephant in the room - those certain subjects that are just not spoken about because it isn't fashionable. I don't drink tea either - does that make me anti-British?

The mentally challenged always break out the racist card when all else fails.

[cletus8269]

AND IT IS NOT RACIST TO SAY SOMEONE DOES NOT LIKE JAPANESE CARS. That is just ridiculous. It's always the 800 lb elephant in the room - those certain subjects that are just not spoken about because it isn't fashionable. I don't drink tea either - does that make me anti-British?

, lets see i dont think i left anything out

[Guest aatbloke]

I go away for a few hours and it's always the same one or two people picking fights with everyone else. Sheesh. I used to haunt ToyotaNation but gave it up because I didn't agree with anything they said. They are entitled to their opinions, but posting on there was like pissing into the wind. If I want a pointless argument that goes nowhere fast, I can always call up my ex-BF - now that really gets the juices flowing!

It doesn't matter what exactly is 'class leading.' I am sick of hearing this $h! about 'class leading.' History is strewn with the wreckage of 'class leading' companies (and countries, for that matter.)

General Motors breakaway success in the '40s was not by being all things to all people, but by being different things to different people. Henry Ford stubbornly stuck to the idea of one or two basic models and even fought modernizing his paint plants - to his company's peril, it turned out. General Motors initial success involved simple things like paint choices and fancy names for trim level. They also learned how to market their vehicles more effectively than anyone else.

When I perused the order guides of our (former) Toyota stores, it always struck me as arrogant that both Toyota and Honda package everything up into 2, maybe 3 trim levels of each model and that's it. Take it or leave it. Now that doesn't sound like any way to maintain choice and individuality, does it? Is is more cost effective, however.

This is the sort of hubris that is going to bring Japan Inc. down. Maybe the old fossils that are running Toyota back in Japan are succumbing to the disease that many of the old fossils running Ford and GM in Detroit have succumbed to: "well, I wouldn't want to drive that, so nobody else will either."

AND IT IS NOT RACIST TO SAY SOMEONE DOES NOT LIKE JAPANESE CARS. That is just ridiculous. It's always the 800 lb elephant in the room - those certain subjects that are just not spoken about because it isn't fashionable. I don't drink tea either - does that make me anti-British?

The mentally challenged always break out the racist card when all else fails.

I haven't called anyone racist, mate. Racism and nationalism are very different concepts. I'm a car enthusiast, not a nationalistic brandwhore. There's a world of difference between not liking the cars of a particular country, and blaming that country for one's own failings. The Japanese make cars - no matter how bland - which appeal to people around the globe en masse. They don't hold pistols to peoples' heads. The Americans do not build cars with anything close to the same global appeal, even though (in my own opinion) they generally have more interesting designs.

I've seen just how desperate the more nationalistic types are on these boards. They lambasted the British and the British car industry just because a British magazine criticised the Opel Antara, which they naively thought was American ... when in actual fact it's a car developed and built by Koreans with a tad of German engineering thrown in. Now that kind of behaviour is what I refer to as ridiculous. You know what? Compared to other rivals in the segment, the Antara isn't that good - at least not for European driving conditions and that's what the magazine was directed at.

Honda and Toyota package everything in the States with fewer trim levels and engine options in the States because that's what the market demands. Contrast that starkly with Europe, for example. A Ford Focus in Europe has so many trim, body and engine combinations that there's a choice of some 150 or more models to choose from, compared with a handful in the States. It's a similar story with the Corolla ... the Astra ... the Mazda 3 ... the Audi A3 ... the VW Golf ... etc, etc, etc.

The factors which made a company successful in the 1940's could barely translate to what makes a company successful today. For starters, 60-70 years ago most of the world was either at war or feeling the aftermath of it. Legislation in which companies operate and the industries they operate in have changed beyond recognition in many cases. Technology and communications have made the world a far smaller place since then, along with rapid commerce. Its commerce which has brought about competition (as someone else said earlier) and competition alters a business completely - it changes its efficiencies, its budgets, its quality controls, its markets, and its products.

Don't harp at me about "class leading" either. I didn't bring it up, and responded by stating how subjective it is. Whatsmore, I don't have a rose-tinted view of the world by sitting in suburban Detroit watching CNN, either.

Your inferences that I am "mentally challenged" are cheap jibes because someone with extensive experience of corporate structure has happened to tear apart your wild claims - which themselves stem only from an utter lack of knowledge of the subject - since they arrived on these forums. Get over it.

Edited April 5, 2008 by aatbloke

[CARBIZ]

Boy, someone is a titch sensitive. Did I mention anyone by name? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Guilty conscience? However, since you have brought it up. I've seen you pick fights with several people on this board - and you've only been here for 3 months. Since we clearly get your blood pressure off the map so much, why would you bother? I know that when you go off on your tirades about how Vauxhall is not really run by GM, has nothing to do with GM and is more British than the Queen, I let you have your opinion and ignore you - which is the best way to deal with know-it-alls.

I have nothing against the European car business. I could care less. I know nothing about it, except what transplants I've seen in Brazil for myself. The French build some very interesting cars, but they aren't sold here, so I don't bother concerning myself about them.

My points about GM's earlier successes (since I obviously have to spell everything out for you, as you love to cherry pick people's remarks that suit you and ignore the rest, as you have already been called out for numerous times already) is that Toyota is following in Ford's footsteps from 70 years ago in thinking it can pigeonhole people's tastes. I am suggesting that since the North American market (since I am, in fact Canadian) has become more 'mature' (read: fragmented), people are demanding more choice, not less. Toyota is becoming as arrogant as GM was about 15 years ago, which could lead to its downfall.

For your information, this 'brandwhore' (name calling is always the last resort of the incompetent) has owned 4 Chryslers and 3 GM products. European marques are grossly over priced in Canada so I wouldn't consider them. And since my personal opinion is that Japan is a closed market, you will never see a Japanese vehicle grace my drive way. Never. If there was a way I could program my eyes to blot out Japanese cars as I walk down the road, I would, but alas that technology does not exist yet.

Just remember one thing however: while you are cheering on Japan Inc and marvelling over their every deed, remember that it was the 'arsenal of democracy' that saved your people's asses 60 years ago. If Japan Inc has its way, there will be no 'arsenal of democracy' left to save anyone's ass. Great Britain has already gracefully signed off its steel, shipbuilding, auto and other industries to foreign control If the UK is content being a branch office to other powers, after its proud history, than that is fine by me. I, on the other hand, am quite alarmed by trends that I see of the past 25 years and am not quite so content to take the crap that our media and molly-coddled government seem content to dish out.

Maybe I'll haunt ToyotaNation for the day.

[enzl]

BIZ is right..disliking Japanese cars does NOT make you a racist.

Allowing posters to use slurs in their diatribes IS being an enabler for racists.

Allowing the display of the Confederate Flag IS being extraordinarily insensitive to a race issue.

And there is an undercurrent of xenophonic hatred in many posters screes on China, Japan, India, et al.

I also wonder, given the vocal proportion of gay posters, would the same subtle or overt slurs be tolerated here if these opinions regarded homosexuality?

Japan is currently, unless I missed the news, an ally. Criticizing corporations for taking advantage of the rules they operate under is like blaming a shark for eating a beautiful fish...its simply a shark behaving as one should....

This all being said, I think BIZ is truly a person of real character and loyalty. I just think certain blinders are being used to ignore the obvious and certain cretins on this site are given a free pass because they suit your side of many arguments here, IMHO.

[Drew Dowdell]

Here's a curious bit.

The Japanese are actually crazy over American classic cars, there is huge money involved.

How's that for some irony?

Wealthier Japanese used to import B-bodies.

[Camino LS6]

[Guest aatbloke]

Boy, someone is a titch sensitive. Did I mention anyone by name? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Guilty conscience? However, since you have brought it up. I've seen you pick fights with several people on this board - and you've only been here for 3 months. Since we clearly get your blood pressure off the map so much, why would you bother? I know that when you go off on your tirades about how Vauxhall is not really run by GM, has nothing to do with GM and is more British than the Queen, I let you have your opinion and ignore you - which is the best way to deal with know-it-alls.

I have nothing against the European car business. I could care less. I know nothing about it, except what transplants I've seen in Brazil for myself. The French build some very interesting cars, but they aren't sold here, so I don't bother concerning myself about them.

My points about GM's earlier successes (since I obviously have to spell everything out for you, as you love to cherry pick people's remarks that suit you and ignore the rest, as you have already been called out for numerous times already) is that Toyota is following in Ford's footsteps from 70 years ago in thinking it can pigeonhole people's tastes. I am suggesting that since the North American market (since I am, in fact Canadian) has become more 'mature' (read: fragmented), people are demanding more choice, not less. Toyota is becoming as arrogant as GM was about 15 years ago, which could lead to its downfall.

For your information, this 'brandwhore' (name calling is always the last resort of the incompetent) has owned 4 Chryslers and 3 GM products. European marques are grossly over priced in Canada so I wouldn't consider them. And since my personal opinion is that Japan is a closed market, you will never see a Japanese vehicle grace my drive way. Never. If there was a way I could program my eyes to blot out Japanese cars as I walk down the road, I would, but alas that technology does not exist yet.

Just remember one thing however: while you are cheering on Japan Inc and marvelling over their every deed, remember that it was the 'arsenal of democracy' that saved your people's asses 60 years ago. If Japan Inc has its way, there will be no 'arsenal of democracy' left to save anyone's ass. Great Britain has already gracefully signed off its steel, shipbuilding, auto and other industries to foreign control If the UK is content being a branch office to other powers, after its proud history, than that is fine by me. I, on the other hand, am quite alarmed by trends that I see of the past 25 years and am not quite so content to take the crap that our media and molly-coddled government seem content to dish out.

Maybe I'll haunt ToyotaNation for the day.

LOL, you're a joke mate. My blood pressure is just fine; it's evident to me that the problem lies with American and Canadian blue-collar workers and teenagers who encapsulate themselves with the notion that the Japanese car industry is some evil entity with the sole intent on overthrowing the North American car industry and North Americans themselves. The very term "Japan Inc" is testament to that. I've encountered the likes of you on other American-based boards (although never on boards from other countries), and the rhetoric is identical, right down to "you'll never see a Japanese car on my driveway." Well, you're entitled to that but don't slam others who choose to.

Brand whore is general term here which we use to describe someone who favours just one brand of anything. It isn't a personal attack.

I've never once said that Vauxhall has nothing to do with GM. That's simply your inability and refusal to understand how companies are structured which leads you to say such things. I could walk into any boardroom in the motor industry anywhere in the world, say "hey chaps, Vauxhall is a private British company which is a subsidiary company of GM and run under the auspices of Swiss-based GM Europe" and they'd immediately ask if I had anything other than common knowledge to tell them.

Interesting that you bring up British industry. British Leyland was a joke; it was overrun by union demands and the numerous strikes and poor management decisions made as a result just destroyed the integrity of the product. This was shame, because BL did have a handful of very good cars in addition to the crap which they peddled. Unfortunately, its fate was ultimately decided by an extreme right-wing criminal known as Margaret Thatcher. She pillaged what was left of BL before selling it in 1988 to a small group of fat cats in British Aerospace for a song, who then sold it shortly afterwards to BMW at a remarkable profit, while simultaneously closing the door on an existing agreement between Rover and Honda. Had Honda have been allowed to continue its influence on Rover, then it may have survived. Who did BL workers blame for their woes? That's right, foreign competition - while at the same time trying in vain to convince us that the Austin Allegro was a viable Toyota Corolla and VW Golf competitor. The British car industry is healthy now despite being almost entirely under foreign ownership; it employs a million people and makes a significant contribution to the UK's economy. No bad thing.

I couldn't build a brick wall to save my life; I'll leave an expert bricklayer to do that. Could I wire a house? Nope, I'll leave that to a qualified electrician. What I do is deal with businesses, both incorporated and unincorporated, and the legal framework in which they operate. I've formed companies, appointed directors, and even made some dormant in the past. I'm not picking fights, but when I read such absolute rubbish like "the profits all go to Japan" and "Vauxhall is American" by people who clearly don't have the first clue, then I will say my piece. Saying that Vauxhall is a British company isn't an opinion. It is fact.

Only those who are intimidated (such as the guy who couldn't actually tell me which American car could be sold in Japan to prise folk away from their B-segment machinery) will accuse me of "cherrypicking" because they know their BS is being pulled apart by actual knowledge. When they feel really intimidated, they'll just choose to ignore me. Which is fine by me; I prefer to deal with knowledgeable car enthusiasts.

Edited April 5, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

Despite polite requests, civility has not been maintained here in this otherwise good thread.

Since that is the case, the thread will now be locked.

It is time for those on their high horses to step back and adjust their behaviour. The baiting and antagonism is wholly unnecessary and must end now.

If this applies to you, take it as a warning, that sort of conduct is damaging to the board and we will take action against those who perpetuate it. so adjust yourself before we have to.