What's your beef with Toyota?

[LosAngeles]

The Camry suffered in Europe for two main reasons: a) it become too large after the first-generation model for European tastes which don't generally favour large Japanese saloons with comparatively bland styling; and b) its suspension, though stiffened, was still too soft for European driving conditions. In addition to this, the European market has changed considerably in the past decade, with high-depreciating E-segment saloons from mainstream manufacturers falling largely out of favour as buyers turned to smaller D-segment executive saloons from BMW, Audi et al for the same money. Opel, Ford, Toyota, Fiat, Renault and Mitsubishi have all pulled out of the European E-segment during that time.

I guess that explains what happened to the Omega, Scorpio, Safrane, and Diamante. Surely gas prices (though historically high anyway) didn't help.

But why is the Peugeot 607 still around?

And the Camry is basically the inoffensive car built for mom to drive to work after dropping the kids off at school, and that's the type of person who eats that car up here.

[Guest aatbloke]

I guess that explains what happened to the Omega, Scorpio, Safrane, and Diamante. Surely gas prices (though historically high anyway) didn't help.

But why is the Peugeot 607 still around?

It's not really an issue with fuel prices - these cars were primarily bought by the company car market anyway. The reason for their demise is that BMW, Audi and Mercedes all encroached into their pricing brackets, and further down still into top-end mainstream D-segment territory. Company car buyers all favoured these and because they depreciated less, contract hire rates were lower as a result making them even more attractive alternatives. BMW have become so successful with this transition that it now sells more 3-series models in the UK each year than Ford does the Mondeo.

PSA continue to sell in the E-segment, but outside of France they sell in very small numbers. Renault pulled the plug on their Vel Satis in the UK and several other European countries too.

Edited April 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[MyerShift]

I find their products to be lacking any emotional aspect to urge a purchase, and when they try to get creative, things get U-G-L-Y.

[LosAngeles]

I guess that explains what happened to the Omega, Scorpio, Safrane, and Diamante. Surely gas prices (though historically high anyway) didn't help.

But why is the Peugeot 607 still around?

It's not really an issue with fuel prices - these cars were primarily bought by the company car market anyway. The reason for their demise is that BMW, Audi and Mercedes all encroached into their pricing brackets, and further down still into top-end mainstream D-segment territory. Company car buyers all favoured these and because they depreciated less, contract hire rates were lower as a result making them even more attractive alternatives. BMW have become so successful with this transition that it now sells more 3-series models in the UK each year than Ford does the Mondeo.

PSA continue to sell in the E-segment, but outside of France they sell in very small numbers. Renault pulled the plug on their Vel Satis in the UK and several other European countries too.

I would never have guessed, but I don't put it past happening.

If you feel like an E-Class could be had for the same price as a Scorpio or Carlton, just because it's Mercedes, of course you'll go in that direction.

Did Lexus or Cadillac do the same thing?

[enzl]

The Upmarket/Downmarket squeeze has been going on for years in Europe...and has recently hit the US too. As the Koreans hit mid-market brands low, the lux brands have lowered their cost of entry dramatically.

It's true in fashion, retailing & many other industries as well...

[Croc]

My biggest beef with Toyota is that I do not like their deceptive/unethical corporate practices. The recall coverups and faux-green marketing really grate. I also don't think their quality is all that special. Their cars are so mediocre and inoffensive in every way, and I like cars with character.

[Guest aatbloke]

"Their cars are so mediocre and inoffensive in every way, and I like cars with character."

When I think about recent US products such as the Cavalier and Neon, I can't think of a better adjective than mediocre. Still, carry on blaming the Japanese - you'll still be blaming them in ten years.

[Drew Dowdell]

OK.....not to defend Toyota......but let's look at a couple of things......

How is a (admittedly new in '09) Corolla any more "boring" than a Cobalt LS/LT sedan?

It's not... however life will be considerably more exciting with the extra $3,000 in my pocket that I don't spend on the Toyota.

[!!!TED!!!]

Great thread!

Love reading the back and forth between Camino and aatbloke.

But, how long are donkey's years anyways?

I agree with camino's opening statement about how Toyota and other Japanese firms transformed the car into an appliance.

As someone who is into car design, The current crop of Toyo's do NOTHING for me.

The best styled Toyotas IMO were in the late 80's through early 90's (actually, most cars in that timeperiod were very cool).

Some "good" Toyotas IMHO:

Previa

A mid engine, RWD space capsule

1994 Camry Coupe

The only Camry I like. Only the 94 bodystyle, as in 95 they ruined it.

Mark IV Supra

Just sex.

Lexus SC 300 (third gen Toyota Soarer)

Sex in a tuxedo. (Supra rode a shortened, modified Lexus SC300 platform and shared the luxury coupe's engine.)

second gen MR2

A Japanese Fiero!

fifth gen Celica

Cool

sixth gen Celica

Cool meets voluptuous

And one we never got, and possibly my favorite Toyota ever.

93-97 Toyota Carina ED

(a 5 passenger hardtop available with AWD, built on the Celica platform!!!)

[Camino LS6]

Glad you're enjoying it, Ted.

I wracked my brain to find a Japanese car that made me look twice, and I found one!

Not a Toyota, and I wouldn't actually buy one, but it did catch my eye.

By CaminoLS6

They look better in person.

[!!!TED!!!]

Mitsubishi Starion!

Yes sir, those look very imposing in person.

[Camino LS6]

Still not a Toyota, and highly modified, but this is the best looking Japanese design of all time IMO:

By CaminoLS6

With an American V8 conversion, I might even consider one.

Such a far cry from the blandness of today.

[!!!TED!!!]

Still not a Toyota, and highly modified, but this is the best looking Japanese design of all time IMO:

By CaminoLS6

With an American V8 conversion, I might even consider one.

Such a far cry from the blandness of today.

Eh, they just looked at an E-Type, and said "we can do that!".

Along the lines of the Starion, I kinda dig the 83 Celica GT-S. Simular in style, and dig those wheels!

Headlights that "retracted" forward, or went flush to make the front a wedge.

[Camino LS6]

Yeah, the original Z car was a blatant E-type rip-off. But I'd still call it the best Japanese design ever.

There is one of those Celicas rotting in a yard around here. It has to have been sitting for at least a decade, and was pretty clean when parked. It may be a product of a company I hate, but it is still a shame to see a clean car go to waste like that.

Some people.

[LosAngeles]

Still not a Toyota, and highly modified, but this is the best looking Japanese design of all time IMO:

By CaminoLS6

With an American V8 conversion, I might even consider one.

The L-series six is such a monster in its own right that throwing in some smallblock or 302 Windsor is a sacrilege.

If any swap, I'm an advocate of "keep it in the family." Plenty of Nissan-brand engines that can make an old Z sing.

When old Volvos get 302 (or 351) Windsors, that's not as bad to me, since Ford owns Volvo now.

ETN: As far as all this talk of E-type inspiration, surely that was by way of the Toyota 2000GT:

Edited April 4, 2008 by LosAngeles

[The O.C.]

just sayin....

Your spin is losing it's punch.

Giving me an objective opinion that a Lucerne "simply looks better" doesn't answer how the Avalon is necessarily perceived as more "boring." I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that think the Avalon is better looking than the Lucerne too......

As far as the performace, Avalon V6 is quicker, not "as quick" as a Northstar Lucerne......so if "performance" is your definition of "boring" I'd say that the Buick is the "boring" one....IF your definition is based around "performance."

I'm simply trying to make the point that calling something "boring" or an "appliance" is a vague generalization at best......and totally objective.....and can be spun to fit whatever manufacturer loyalties one may have......

[Camino LS6]

The L-series six is such a monster in its own right that throwing in some smallblock or 302 Windsor is a sacrilege.

If any swap, I'm an advocate of "keep it in the family." Plenty of Nissan-brand engines that can make an old Z sing.

When old Volvos get 302 (or 351) Windsors, that's not as bad to me, since Ford owns Volvo now.

I get that.

I'm usually something of a purist with swaps, but I am such a torque junkie that a V8 swap would make me look at this car while a stock unit would let me walk past it.

[Guest aatbloke]

Apart from the acclaimed Celica GT-Four, here are some of my favourite Toyota models over the years:

1990 Sera

1967 2000GT

1965 Sports 800

[The O.C.]

Nothing blind about it, it's called taste. I do have an affinity for certain European cars, but have yet to be impressed by anythig from Japan. As for the industry, I see nothing wrong with wanting to support the products of one's own home country and make no apologies for that. Especially when they evoke the style and substance which appeal to me. I despise Toyota for their effect on the industry as a whole.

'Bloke's point was......he's a car enthusiast (as am I and others on here.)

Your point above simply shows that you are really not a car enthusiast......but really just a GM enthusiast (or domestic-car enthusiast).....and that's fine.....but there is a significant difference.....

[Camino LS6]

'Bloke's point was......he's a car enthusiast (as am I and others on here.)

Your point above simply shows that you are really not a car enthusiast......but really just a GM enthusiast (or domestic-car enthusiast).....and that's fine.....but there is a significant difference.....

Not true, read more carefully. :AH-HA_wink:

EDIT: You should know me better than that by now, OC!

[The O.C.]

I'm leaving this one alone beyond saying that both you and OC sound like you guys don't get around much.

Oh my bud....you really don't know me.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, without being shy about it, it's my very experience in SO many markets around this country that many times leads me to the very comments I make on here......

[The O.C.]

This particular model never saw the light of day in the U.S. All we got was some wimpy 145-horse frontie frogmobile.

We did get the turbo All-trac for a very short time......I think that unit produced, what, 200hp for it's time?

[The O.C.]

Not true, read more carefully. :AH-HA_wink:

EDIT: You should know me better than that by now, OC!

What I meant was his comment that he likes cars in general and has no real allegiance to any country's industry over another......

I'm the same way. While I have a certain amount of passion for GM because of my history, I an interested and intriqued by cars not only in other countries around the world, but from ALL the manufacturers we have here in the U.S.

I don't "hate" Toyota for their successes......I don't "hate" the Koreans because they used to peddle crap......I don't "hate" the Germans because they are over-priced and the source of so much car-snobbery in this country.......

Not saying you fit any or all of the above......but there are a ton of people on this site that have passions very focused on GM (or the domestics) and GM alone. Anything else is (generally speaking) not worth the time.......

[Drew Dowdell]

Your spin is losing it's punch.

Giving me an objective opinion that a Lucerne "simply looks better" doesn't answer how the Avalon is necessarily perceived as more "boring." I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that think the Avalon is better looking than the Lucerne too......

As far as the performace, Avalon V6 is quicker, not "as quick" as a Northstar Lucerne......so if "performance" is your definition of "boring" I'd say that the Buick is the "boring" one....IF your definition is based around "performance."

I'm simply trying to make the point that calling something "boring" or an "appliance" is a vague generalization at best......and totally objective.....and can be spun to fit whatever manufacturer loyalties one may have......

Did you click the links? I posted the times.

As far as the Lucerne looking better... I think the sales numbers back me up on that one.

Boring or appliance means that the item in question has no personality, there is nothing remarkable about it, and if you scraped the badges off, non-enthusiasts wouldn't be able to identify the brand. The Lucerne, while conservative, does invoke the looks of a Buick.

[Camino LS6]

What I meant was his comment that he likes cars in general and has no real allegiance to any country's industry over another......

I'm the same way. While I have a certain amount of passion for GM because of my history, I an interested and intriqued by cars not only in other countries around the world, but from ALL the manufacturers we have here in the U.S.

I don't "hate" Toyota for their successes......I don't "hate" the Koreans because they used to peddle crap......I don't "hate" the Germans because they are over-priced and the source of so much car-snobbery in this country.......

Not saying you fit any or all of the above......but there are a ton of people on this site that have passions very focused on GM (or the domestics) and GM alone. Anything else is (generally speaking) not worth the time.......

You still miss the mark with me.

Sure, my center of interest is GM (specifically Chevy and Pontiac), but my taste in cars runs both to other domestics and certain imports. All of which you should know by now.

There are Fords I like, a host of Mopars, more than a few BMWs, Jags, Astons, and so on.

I also have a soft spot for extinct brands such as International Harvester, and Studebaker.

I have a fascination with the unusual as well. So, things like a Jensen Interceptor, or my old Maserati Biturbo interest me.

I respect and enjoy a wide range of cars and trucks from various countries.

I reserve the hate for Toyota, and have a general dislike of Asian cars. I admit that freely.

Otherwise, it is a car by car thing with me.

[LosAngeles]

We did get the turbo All-trac for a very short time......I think that unit produced, what, 200hp for it's time?

We didn't get one for the 94-99 is my point. And that was at a time when interest in higher-performance sports coupes was booming. Toyota made it a point to hustle backwards and it backfired, so they tried to rectify that with the far more aggressive 2000 Celica that came afterward.

[Guest aatbloke]

What I meant was his comment that he likes cars in general and has no real allegiance to any country's industry over another......

I'm the same way. While I have a certain amount of passion for GM because of my history, I an interested and intriqued by cars not only in other countries around the world, but from ALL the manufacturers we have here in the U.S.

I don't "hate" Toyota for their successes......I don't "hate" the Koreans because they used to peddle crap......I don't "hate" the Germans because they are over-priced and the source of so much car-snobbery in this country.......

Not saying you fit any or all of the above......but there are a ton of people on this site that have passions very focused on GM (or the domestics) and GM alone. Anything else is (generally speaking) not worth the time.......

I agree with all the points you make. Since I was a kid, I've been enthusiastic about everything with an engine, four wheels and a seat. I've never cared where the thing happens to be built!

For me what is interesting is how the industry operates, how companies are structured (which I suppose is why I've handled so many company formations in my career) and what is produced by these manufacturers as a result.

There isn't a single car manufacturer on earth who hasn't made mistakes. But they're all businesses at the end of the day, and all will act as a business first and foremost.

[The O.C.]

I was merely trying to point out that ---where it counts--Toyota is already winning--in fact, the war is over. RETAIL sales that generate real profits on a per-unit basis already favor Toyota---simply take fleet rates of 25% and 10% and discount sales accordingly---Chevy's 2nd. The lead is only increasing, as the 13% hit GM took this month was twice the decline of Toyota's---while all of the peanut gallery celebrates, they don't even realize that Toyota still took more share!

I didn't misunderstand, I just took the real numbers, rather than the joke that is the gross sales numbers...1 of 4 GM vehicles aren't sold to individuals--and haven't been for some time. No wonder they went bland--they had to please the guy in accounting, not the guy spending his hard earned cash. It actually makes perfect sense in that context.

This is a point that, in my mind, is missed way too often in the industry.

There needs to be a way-stronger look at actual retail registrations in this country. That alone shows the true consumer demand for a product.

And while your average of 1-in-4 GM products not being sold to individuals is pretty spot-on....the sad part is that there are still WAY too many GM products that fleet out a WAY higher percentage.......

And before anyone brings it up, I think the last time I saw fleet/rental percentages......Camry/Corolla were around 15% fleet/rental (someone correct me if I'm wrong and they have actual figures)......high for Toyota....low compared to a domestic product.

I remember WAY too many times at Buick.....when having a tough month, our fleet department would, at the last minute, find a hole with one of the rental agencies where they could dump a large number of cars.....simply to be able to show a stronger "sales" number at the end of the month. How f*cked of a business model is that?

[The O.C.]

Cars rust out around you in Cali?

Chris

OK....misspoken.....

Dented, crashed, pieces falling off.....perhaps "rusted" was the wrong word.

It's sad.....I'd love to see more late-70's to late-80's GM products in better shape.....but I just don't......

[Camino LS6]

This is a point that, in my mind, is missed way too often in the industry.

There needs to be a way-stronger look at actual retail registrations in this country. That alone shows the true consumer demand for a product.

And while your average of 1-in-4 GM products not being sold to individuals is pretty spot-on....the sad part is that there are still WAY too many GM products that fleet out a WAY higher percentage.......

And before anyone brings it up, I think the last time I saw fleet/rental percentages......Camry/Corolla were around 15% fleet/rental (someone correct me if I'm wrong and they have actual figures)......high for Toyota....low compared to a domestic product.

I remember WAY too many times at Buick.....when having a tough month, our fleet department would, at the last minute, find a hole with one of the rental agencies where they could dump a large number of cars.....simply to be able to show a stronger "sales" number at the end of the month. How f*cked of a business model is that?

You also know that a shift of such sales is occuring now. With Toyota fleeting more and GM less.

Just sayin.

[LosAngeles]

there are a ton of people on this site that have passions very focused on GM (or the domestics) and GM alone. Anything else is (generally speaking) not worth the time.......

And more to the point, too many on here worship at the altar of these body-on-frame, live axle retro-sleds, as if they never emerged from 1969 or 1977, and don't feel that GM or other Americna brands should have either.

OK....misspoken.....

Dented, crashed, pieces falling off.....perhaps "rusted" was the wrong word.

It's sad.....I'd love to see more late-70's to late-80's GM products in better shape.....but I just don't......

Bread and butter cars are generally treated like pieces of s--t (which is why they don't last as long as more often-pampered performance cars)...they just don't rust as severely in this town

[Camino LS6]

OK....misspoken.....

Dented, crashed, pieces falling off.....perhaps "rusted" was the wrong word.

It's sad.....I'd love to see more late-70's to late-80's GM products in better shape.....but I just don't......

I'm doing my part by saving a pair of them right now. :AH-HA_wink:

[The O.C.]

It's not...

Thank you.

That was simply my point.

To the thread: My thing overall is....I don't have anything necessarily against Toyota. In reality, there's probably not one Toyota I'd buy over any of the other choices in the marketplace....however, I am intriqued by many of their product decisions.

I am no Prius fan at all.....and have even had one for a day to drive and was not that impressed....especially with my average of "only" 37mpg. However, I applaud the incredible marketing genius Toyota has shown with the whole "Hybrid" thing. Truly amazing in the industry. Bring out a product that, in reality, doesn't pay for itself unless you're in it for the really long run....and have people buy it anyways....primarily for the statement it makes. And make the rest of the industry follow after you like a dog with it's tail between it's knees......

I applaud any car (Camry) that can show the dominance in the midsize sedan segment that Camry has for as many years as it has......ugly, boring appliance....or not....

I applaud the audaciousness of the Tundra/Sequoia styling....and the incredible power and efficiency of it's I-Force 5.7L V8......(even if I wouldn't see myself ever getting one of them.....)

I applaud Lexus.....and how they are now perceived as a top-tier luxury brand.....in, what, less-than 20 years?

What Toyota has done in this country has been amazing from a marketing, sales, and image standpoint......and they've done it in a relatively short amount of time when you think about how long the domestics have been around.

So.....they are not my cup of tea.....but I have nothing inherently against them.....I see them as innovative marketers that have simply taken advantage of every opportunity our domestic Big3 (and our government, and theirs, perhaps) have given them.....and they've capitalized on that.

[regfootball]

stealth/3000gt = japanese car i would love to own.

also like the dodge stratus coupe/sebring coupe for that matter.

[!!!TED!!!]

We did get the turbo All-trac for a very short time......I think that unit produced, what, 200hp for it's time?

Yes! Very rare!

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/car/620175814.html

[The O.C.]

Did you click the links? I posted the times.

As far as the Lucerne looking better... I think the sales numbers back me up on that one.

Boring or appliance means that the item in question has no personality, there is nothing remarkable about it, and if you scraped the badges off, non-enthusiasts wouldn't be able to identify the brand. The Lucerne, while conservative, does invoke the looks of a Buick.

Sales numbers? I know they fleet Avalon some....but let's look at retail sales numbers....shall we? (Unfortunately I don't have recent ones handy....perhaps you do.)

As far as acceleration times? Let's look again at apples-to-apples....two buff rags, each with using their own same testing procedures used for BOTH cars:

C&D (0-60, 1/4 miles, test mpg)

Lucerne CXS (3-06) 6.9/15.3/17mpg

Avalon Touring (7-05) 6.0/14.6/22mpg

MT (0-60, 1/4 mile......both from 1-06 COTY test)

Lucerne CXS 7.5/15.7

Avalon 6.1/14.8

So....to me....it looks like Avalon's times were pretty consistent between both mags. Perhaps C&D got a "stronger" Lucerne somehow? Either way, both mags posted considerably quicker times for the V6 Avalon even over the faster Lucerne V8 that C&D had.......

And to me.....even though I find Lucerne still more attractive than Avalon, I don't think there's anything on it that truly says "Buick" (fake portholes don't count.) In fact, as many have said on here before, it has more than a hint of Passat/Phaeton in the rear.......a good-looking car? YES.....but not necessarily any more "Buick" than the Avalon is "Toyota."

[The O.C.]

You also know that a shift of such sales is occuring now. With Toyota fleeting more and GM less.

Just sayin.

I know you mean well.....but before any of us go off with generalizations, let's get someone on here that has access or knows where to get them to get us actual retail-vs-fleet percentages so we can really compare how the two companys are doing today.......

I think you'll see GM hasn't cut back as much as you think.....and Toyota hasn't increased it as much as you think.......

Evok used to be able to get me this info....I'll try to contact him and see if he has updated fleet-vs-retail numbers......

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

Thank you.

That was simply my point.

To the thread: My thing overall is....I don't have anything necessarily against Toyota. In reality, there's probably not one Toyota I'd buy over any of the other choices in the marketplace....however, I am intriqued by many of their product decisions.

I am no Prius fan at all.....and have even had one for a day to drive and was not that impressed....especially with my average of "only" 37mpg. However, I applaud the incredible marketing genius Toyota has shown with the whole "Hybrid" thing. Truly amazing in the industry. Bring out a product that, in reality, doesn't pay for itself unless you're in it for the really long run....and have people buy it anyways....primarily for the statement it makes. And make the rest of the industry follow after you like a dog with it's tail between it's knees......

I applaud any car (Camry) that can show the dominance in the midsize sedan segment that Camry has for as many years as it has......ugly, boring appliance....or not....

I applaud the audaciousness of the Tundra/Sequoia styling....and the incredible power and efficiency of it's I-Force 5.7L V8......(even if I wouldn't see myself ever getting one of them.....)

I applaud Lexus.....and how they are now perceived as a top-tier luxury brand.....in, what, less-than 20 years?

What Toyota has done in this country has been amazing from a marketing, sales, and image standpoint......and they've done it in a relatively short amount of time when you think about how long the domestics have been around.

So.....they are not my cup of tea.....but I have nothing inherently against them.....I see them as innovative marketers that have simply taken advantage of every opportunity our domestic Big3 (and our government, and theirs, perhaps) have given them.....and they've capitalized on that.

But the market was GM's to lose and Toyota's to gain. I used to enjoy eating at McDonald's, back when their food was hot, cheap and fast. Now, I hate standing in line while families fight over which godamned toy they already have! The food menu is complicated, the food expensive (lots of greasy spoons have cheaper, better food) and the food is never ready. McDonald's started with one restaurant 50 years ago and had nowhere to go but up. Sound familiar?

What I like about Ford and GM (and Chrysler) is that they grew their business in a time when cars were cars and the competition was spirited and fun. There is nothing fun about the way Japan does business. Everything is a war to them, and probably rightly so with the way things turned out for them 60 years ago. They are still a protectionist/homogenous society. While we brace ourselves for an onslaught from cheaper imports from Brazil, China and India, Japanese manufacturers have no such fear.

[Camino LS6]

I know you mean well.....but before any of us go off with generalizations, let's get someone on here that has access or knows where to get them to get us actual retail-vs-fleet percentages so we can really compare how the two companys are doing today.......

I think you'll see GM hasn't cut back as much as you think.....and Toyota hasn't increased it as much as you think.......

Evok used to be able to get me this info....I'll try to contact him and see if he has updated fleet-vs-retail numbers......

The numbers are less important than the direction of the trend.

[The O.C.]

Nothing blind about it, it's called taste. I do have an affinity for certain European cars, but have yet to be impressed by anythig from Japan. As for the industry, I see nothing wrong with wanting to support the products of one's own home country and make no apologies for that. Especially when they evoke the style and substance which appeal to me. I despise Toyota for their effect on the industry as a whole.

Not trying to bag on you bud.....but your comment here, including where you admit an "affinity for certain European cars" doesn't sound like the kind of industry enthusiast 'Bloke iand myself are trying to portray ourselves......

You "have yet to be impressed by anything from Japan"......and you "despise Toyota for their effect on the industry as a whole."

You are WAY more focused in your enthusiasm......and that's okay......there are many of us on here that are on way different levels as far as our enthusiasm for the industry and how far that reaches....

[Camino LS6]

But the market was GM's to lose and Toyota's to gain. I used to enjoy eating at McDonald's, back when their food was hot, cheap and fast. Now, I hate standing in line while families fight over which godamned toy they already have! The food menu is complicated, the food expensive (lots of greasy spoons have cheaper, better food) and the food is never ready. McDonald's started with one restaurant 50 years ago and had nowhere to go but up. Sound familiar?

What I like about Ford and GM (and Chrysler) is that they grew their business in a time when cars were cars and the competition was spirited and fun. There is nothing fun about the way Japan does business. Everything is a war to them, and probably rightly so with the way things turned out for them 60 years ago. They are still a protectionist/homogenous society. While we brace ourselves for an onslaught from cheaper imports from Brazil, China and India, Japanese manufacturers have no such fear.

Excellent post.

[Camino LS6]

Not trying to bag on you bud.....but your comment here, including where you admit an "affinity for certain European cars" doesn't sound like the kind of industry enthusiast 'Bloke iand myself are trying to portray ourselves......

You "have yet to be impressed by anything from Japan"......and you "despise Toyota for their effect on the industry as a whole."

You are WAY more focused in your enthusiasm......and that's okay......there are many of us on here that are on way different levels as far as our enthusiasm for the industry and how far that reaches....

[The O.C.]

But the market was GM's to lose and Toyota's to gain.

First of all.....no denying that GM made it relatively easy for Toyota.

But if it was all that easy, it woudn't be just Toyota (and maybe Honda to a lesser extent) showing such dominence in the marketplace.

There are certain reasons it's Toyota......and not Mitsubishi.....or even Nissan.....there's a certain genius to that company.....whether any of us like it or not.

[The O.C.]

OK....time for a group hug with you, me, and 'Bloke.....

Seriously.....this has been an incredible thread.....it really brings out lots of emotions, feelings, rationalizations, hatred, love, all these things when people discuss something so near-and-dear to their hearts......

[Camino LS6]

First of all.....no denying that GM made it relatively easy for Toyota.

But if it was all that easy, it woudn't be just Toyota (and maybe Honda to a lesser extent) showing such dominence in the marketplace.

There are certain reasons it's Toyota......and not Mitsubishi.....or even Nissan.....there's a certain genius to that company.....whether any of us like it or not.

Which doesn't make it ovation-worthy.

They've been dealt a very good hand, delivered on a silver platter.

[Camino LS6]

OK....time for a group hug with you, me, and 'Bloke.....

Seriously.....this has been an incredible thread.....it really brings out lots of emotions, feelings, rationalizations, hatred, love, all these things when people discuss something so near-and-dear to their hearts......

Mind if I skip the hug?

I think it might be worthwhile to take a look at what a car needs to be to gain everyone's approval.

Brand independent.

I'm sure you can name some of my criteria. :AH-HA_wink:

[Drew Dowdell]

Mind if I skip the hug?

I think it might be worthwhile to take a look at what a car needs to be to gain everyone's approval.

Brand independent.

I'm sure you can name some of my criteria. :AH-HA_wink:

NO B-PILLAR@!!@#$!@!@ ELEVIBINTY!!!!!!

[Camino LS6]

NO B-PILLAR@!!@#$!@!@ ELEVIBINTY!!!!!!

I can live with a B pillar, if I have to.

But it's a better world without such things. :AH-HA_wink:

[The O.C.]

I think it might be worthwhile to take a look at what a car needs to be to gain everyone's approval.

Brand independent.

But that's the whole thing......I don't think you could ever design a car to gain "everyone's" approval (or even a majority approval)......if companies were able to do that, there wouldn't be the fierce debate and differing enthusiasm that we all DO have on here....

Camry sells more midsize sedans than ANYONE....and has for many years.......but you wouldn't ever buy one.....nor would I....nor would many people on here......

Same thing goes for pickups......combined Silverado/Sierra sales provide the best-selling product in the country......but I would never buy a pickup....any pickup.....because I don't need one....and they don't appeal to me.....

[Camino LS6]

But that's the whole thing......I don't think you could ever design a car to gain "everyone's" approval (or even a majority approval)......if companies were able to do that, there wouldn't be the fierce debate and differing enthusiasm that we all DO have on here....

Camry sells more midsize sedans than ANYONE....and has for many years.......but you wouldn't ever buy one.....nor would I....nor would many people on here......

Same thing goes for pickups......combined Silverado/Sierra sales provide the best-selling product in the country......but I would never buy a pickup....any pickup.....because I don't need one....and they don't appeal to me.....

NO,NO,NO!

That's not what I meant!

For each of us, what makes a car?

You know, individuality, choice. Those aspects that daily become more rare.