What's your beef with Toyota?

[LosAngeles]

Not that it's a bad thing to dislike Toyota, just wanted to know where you stand.

[Drew Dowdell]

My beef with Toyota mostly involves them not being as great as their reputation makes them out to be.

How many Toyota Cressidas do you still see milling around? How many Cutlass Cierras... or Buick Centurys of the same vintage do you see?

I bet the number of of ~1985 vintage Cressidas + Camrys still running is less than the number of Cutlass Cierras alone.... much less the entire A-body lineup.

[Camino LS6]

Everything.

[the_yellow_dart]

They're resting on their laurels. They're not innovating as much as other companies their size. They're not coming out with any inspiring features or vehicles. They're putting out the same mediocre crap and they get a pass because of their quality streak in the late '90s / early '00s.

[AAS]

They make mostly unattractive cars and trucks that I have to see everytime I'm out and about.

I didn't have as much of a problem with them when they were making the late '90s Celica, or the Supra.

[FAPTurbo]

We own one, and the reliability has been nothing short of 'sucky' .

[Guest aatbloke]

I have no beef with Toyota - they have a range of largely appliance-like cars, but every now and again they do come up with something rather special. The old Celica GT-4 was a great example.

If I had to choose a Toyota today, I'd plump for an Auris SR180 with its 175bhp 2.2 litre turbodiesel good for almost 50mpg (US) at highway speeds.

[ToniCipriani]

They're overrated, and I hate how people always put it as if it's the de facto standard when it comes to buying a car.

And their cars are soul-less. You buy one because you need one, not because you want one.

Edited April 2, 2008 by ToniCipriani

[PurdueGuy]

Voted:

They're too conservative/boring.

They are an Asian/Japanese manufacturer. (This doesn't really make me dislike them, but I prefer American manufacturers.)

They play dirty, but make nice with the press and consumers.

Other: They've forsaken quality for quantity, but still get treated like everything they touch is bulletproof.

[Guest aatbloke]

Voted:

They're too conservative/boring.

They are an Asian/Japanese manufacturer. (This doesn't really make me dislike them, but I prefer American manufacturers.)

They play dirty, but make nice with the press and consumers.

Other: They've forsaken quality for quantity, but still get treated like everything they touch is bulletproof.

"They are an Asian/Japanese manufacturer. (This doesn't really make me dislike them, but I prefer American manufacturers.)"

Interesting that you should have the emblem from a German manufacturer included on your avatar!

[PurdueGuy]

"They are an Asian/Japanese manufacturer. (This doesn't really make me dislike them, but I prefer American manufacturers.)"

Interesting that you should have the emblem from a German manufacturer included on your avatar!

They get bonus points for being owned by GM, but I still wish Saturns were built in the US. I remain hopeful for the next gen Astra and at least some of the other rebadges to get built here (I'm still not decided if Mexico is any better than Germany... probably not.)

[ZL-1]

I have no beef with Toyota.

[Guest aatbloke]

They get bonus points for being owned by GM, but I still wish Saturns were built in the US. I remain hopeful for the next gen Astra and at least some of the other rebadges to get built here (I'm still not decided if Mexico is any better than Germany... probably not.)

General Motors is indeed Opel's parent company. Opel itself is a German manufacturing company.

[LosAngeles]

Toyota was a totally enjoyable face on the automotive landscape in the 80s and 90s, when Celica, Supra, MR2, and Corolla coupe had one saying "who could ask for anything more?"

When they distilled back to their historically conservative ways, I lost interest, and Scion isn't excitement enough to me to replace that.

maybe if I was a big SUV fan, I wouldn't feel as ill...but....

How many Toyota Cressidas do you still see milling around? How many Cutlass Cierras... or Buick Centurys of the same vintage do you see?

I bet the number of of ~1985 vintage Cressidas + Camrys still running is less than the number of Cutlass Cierras alone.... much less the entire A-body lineup.

Let be fair here, and say that Cressida + Camry still only = two nameplates on one brand of car back when "do NOT buy American" hadn't picked up as much steam, versus four brands (with three configurations and two engines each) of A-bodies?

It's probably different in the rest of the country (at least where rusty cancer isn't consuming older cars like water), but here in SoCal, there are still plenty of Cressidas of that vintage. Camrys, not so much, but again, Camrys weren't that popular in the first generation.

"They are an Asian/Japanese manufacturer. (This doesn't really make me dislike them, but I prefer American manufacturers.)"

Interesting that you should have the emblem from a German manufacturer included on your avatar!

To me, Adam Opel + Vauxhall = GM of Europe, as Holden = GM of Australia. The brands aren't as "from scratch" as Ford, but neither are Buick, Cadillac, Olds, or Oakland, last time I checked.

The product is all General IMO...the mentality isn't THAT different, and a piece of the profits and glory ultimately goes to Detroit.

[A Horse With No Name]

They're resting on their laurels. They're not innovating as much as other companies their size. They're not coming out with any inspiring features or vehicles. They're putting out the same mediocre crap and they get a pass because of their quality streak in the late '90s / early '00s.

Exactly what I feel.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

They get bonus points for being owned by GM, but I still wish Saturns were built in the US. I remain hopeful for the next gen Astra and at least some of the other rebadges to get built here (I'm still not decided if Mexico is any better than Germany... probably not.)

The only small car built here by an American MFG co. is the Cobalt as far as I know.

Civic is Japanese company but built here, Corolla is built at NUMMI in Cali but Japanese company, Hyundai is built in Alabama by Korean Company, Avenger and Sebring are built in Mexico, Focus, HHR, PT, Et all are built in Mexico, Astra is built in Belgium IIRC, GTI/Rabbit is built in Wolfsburg Germany, Scion/Mazda 3/Miata etc. built in Japan...

Suziki, Mitsubishi, Nissan built by evil lords of darkness in the remote rainforests of the Amazon....

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I have no beef with Toyota - they have a range of largely appliance-like cars, but every now and again they do come up with something rather special. The old Celica GT-4 was a great example.

If I had to choose a Toyota today, I'd plump for an Auris SR180 with its 175bhp 2.2 litre turbodiesel good for almost 50mpg (US) at highway speeds.

We need small diesel cars here in the states NOW.

Chris

[LosAngeles]

We need small diesel cars here in the states NOW.

Do we really when diesel's already OVER $4 a gallon?

I say we all get behind hydrogen fuel cell and Coskata's further development of waste as a source for ethanol (to relieve the corn supply)

[CARBIZ]

1. Toyota is over-rated. (Ever see the service department of a Toyota dealer empty?)

2. Japan is in many ways an closed market.

3. Frankly, I hate the arrogance of certain people who have the audacity to tell me that 'they' buy Japanese cars because 'they' are a certain ethnic group.

I will admit that a lot of my dislike for Japanese cars is largely based on my horror in the early '80s as they started to flood the market with tiny tin cans of crap. Admittedly, Toyota has come a long, long way from the likes of the first generation Tercel and Corolla, but even before I got into the car business, I had a strong dislike of the ugly little tin boxes polluting the roadways around here. It didn't help any when I was studying international trade at university that I began to dig into the shenanigans that Japan Inc was (and continues to) pulling.

However, times change and I have come to realize that there is more to life than driving the highways in a 220" monster, so I've made my peace with small cars.

[Guest aatbloke]

Toyota was a totally enjoyable face on the automotive landscape in the 80s and 90s, when Celica, Supra, MR2, and Corolla coupe had one saying "who could ask for anything more?"

When they distilled back to their historically conservative ways, I lost interest, and Scion isn't excitement enough to me to replace that.

maybe if I was a big SUV fan, I wouldn't feel as ill...but....

Let be fair here, and say that Cressida + Camry still only = two nameplates on one brand of car back when "do NOT buy American" hadn't picked up as much steam, versus four brands (with three configurations and two engines each) of A-bodies?

It's probably different in the rest of the country (at least where rusty cancer isn't consuming older cars like water), but here in SoCal, there are still plenty of Cressidas of that vintage. Camrys, not so much, but again, Camrys weren't that popular in the first generation.

To me, Adam Opel + Vauxhall = GM of Europe, as Holden = GM of Australia. The brands aren't as "from scratch" as Ford, but neither are Buick, Cadillac, Olds, or Oakland, last time I checked.

The product is all General IMO...the mentality isn't THAT different, and a piece of the profits and glory ultimately goes to Detroit.

"To me, Adam Opel + Vauxhall = GM of Europe, as Holden = GM of Australia. The brands aren't as "from scratch" as Ford, but neither are Buick, Cadillac, Olds, or Oakland, last time I checked."

Adam Opel GmbH, Holden Limited and Vauxhall Motors Limited are separate legal entities, each incorporated and registered in different countries and each Articled as such. Each is legally obliged to conform to company law in those countries, each has duties to draw up financial statements in those countries and be audited as private limited companies. Each one is a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors, meaning that General Motors has liability of ownership to the amount paid up on the issued ordinary shares it owns in each company.

In the United States, Saturn Corporation is also a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors in the same way. Chevrolet, Pontiac, Hummer, Cadillac, Buick and GMC are not separate legal entities as is the case with Saturn; they are merely owned brand-names of GM and have no separate legal status under company law.

When a company is first registered in a particular country, Articles of Association are drawn up which is essentially a document setting out the legal guidelines that company has to follow. It also states where the company is legally registered - in other words, its domiciliary. That domiciliary does not change if the company is subsequently bought by another company. As such, Opel is German, Holden is Australian, and Vauxhall is British. A company's domicile can be moved to another country, but this is rare and only usually occurs in companies in financial fields looking to gain tax advantages by moving a domicile to a legal tax haven, such as the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.

GM Europe is essentially an international division or cost centre set up by GM in 1978, to look after the activities of Vauxhall and Opel, and latterly Saab, from design and development of new products right down to dealership franchising. It is also responsible for the overseeing of Holden products and those of GM's North American operations, which it subs out to Kroymanns, a Dutch-based importer.

There is no guarantee that any profit from Holden, Opel or Vauxhall goes to Detroit. First and foremost, profit can only be extracted via intercompany charges and via dividends - and the laws governing those can vary dependent upon where the subsidiary is registered. Universally, a dividend can only be paid out of post-tax profits and is subject to income/corporation tax on the parent company; intercompany charges are not usually wholly tax relievable to the subsidiary and often subject to limits set out in agreements with taxing authorities. In addition, GM itself is a public company, and investors will be wary of copious dividends being extracted from subsidiary companies leaving fewer reserves in those subsidiaries for future expansion, growth and capital expenditure. That can be construed as a sign that a sale of the subsidiary or a contraction of activities within the group is on the cards.

Edited April 2, 2008 by aatbloke

[A Horse With No Name]

Small cars don't have to be ugly tim boxes though. Look at the Astra, which is really a cool little car.

Personally I think people start driving a particular type of car as teenagers when they learn to drive, and then stay with that for life. I learned to drive on a manual Dodge Omni and have never really made peace with big cars or automatics FWIW.

As far as the ethnic thing goes...and you'd really hate the asian father of one of my high school friends. He bought an Oldsmobile new in 1967, drove it trouble free until 1994 and then traded it on a Camry because he wanted something "reliable."

Chris

[chevelle454]

Toyotas are ugly, and just not very good cars. I hate the way the media kisses their ass

[Blake Noble]

The reason I dislike Toyota? It is not because they are Japanese, and it is not because I believe them to be some impenetrable fortress that cannot be brought down. Quite frankly, I see them to be a wholly dishonest company with policies that lack morale, a company that can only build cold, soulless abominations that roll on four Good Year tires. I despise what they do and what they make. There is no passion or even honesty in a Toyota product.

Edited April 3, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[cletus8269]

I say we all get behind hydrogen fuel cell and Coskata's further development of waste as a source for ethanol (to relieve the corn supply)

ooo read about that in this months motor trend, thats a fascinating little thing they got going on. only one problem with it, the powers that be wont make a lot of money off that so it'll prolly get downplayed.

[regfootball]

not enough to time to detail why i fking hate them

[Guest aatbloke]

The reason I dislike Toyota? It is not because they are Japanese, and it is not because I believe them to be some impenetrable fortress that cannot be brought down. Quite frankly, I see them to be a wholly dishonest company with policies that lack morale, a company that can only build cold, soulless abominations that roll on four Good Year tires. I despise what they do and what they make. There is no passion or even honesty in a Toyota product.

"There is no passion or even honesty in a Toyota product."

Given that they produced one of the most successful rally cars ever made (for example), then I have to say I'd disagree with this sentiment.

[mystik]

I despise Toyota for various reasons.

1. Media- Kisses their ass beyond belief. They have quality problems, and I have to come here to see it, or I hear from someone in the car biz because MSN or Yahoo or whoever will not dare report it. If it was GM on the other hand...it's front page news.

2. Default- They are the default company. People think that if you need a car, you get a Toyota because there's less problems with them. Just wondering when this stereotype will go away.

3. Design- Tundra. Camry. Yaris. And the entire Lexus lineup, though the LS460 isn't a bad looking car.

4. Scion- We're hip and we're Toyota! It's win/win! xD

[Guest aatbloke]

"Default- They are the default company. People think that if you need a car, you get a Toyota because there's less problems with them. Just wondering when this stereotype will go away."

Toyota gained this perception in the American public's eye fair and square twenty years ago when, let's face it, the US manufacturers were building some truly atrocious cars. These days, the Americans build far better cars, but mud sticks and reputations can take generations to turn around. Take Lancia, for example; their rust issues in the UK back in the 1970's are still at the forefront of peoples' minds with the prospect of the marque's return to the British market in 2009.

[cletus8269]

"There is no passion or even honesty in a Toyota product."

Given that they produced one of the most successful rally cars ever made (for example), then I have to say I'd disagree with this sentiment.

when was that?

[Guest aatbloke]

when was that?

Between 1988 and 1995. The Celica GT-Four won no fewer than 38 WRC rallies, 2 WRC manufacturers' championships and 4 WRC drivers' championships. Along with wins in European rally championships, the Celica became the second most successful rally car of all time, behind the Lancia Delta Integrale and ahead of the Ford Escort WRC, Subaru Impreza WRC and Mitsubishi Evo.

Edited April 3, 2008 by aatbloke

[Blake Noble]

"There is no passion or even honesty in a Toyota product."

Given that they produced one of the most successful rally cars ever made (for example), then I have to say I'd disagree with this sentiment.

I did not mean motorsports. Focus on what is totally relevant to the consumer, in today's marketplace. What redeeming quality does a Toyota posses over the competition? Your answer is, "Absolutely nothing."

[Guest aatbloke]

I did not mean motorsports. Focus on what is totally relevant to the consumer, in today's marketplace. What redeeming quality does a Toyota posses over the competition? Your answer is, "Absolutely nothing."

Ahhhh, I see - so the comment that "Toyota has no passion" really meant "'Toyota has no passion in the US consumer's marketplace in 2008."

Like I said before, Toyota are famed primarily for appliance-like products, but now and again they do bring along something special - such as the Celica GT-Four which was sold in many markets worldwide for a number of years.

[biff]

Toyota gained this perception in the American public's eye fair and square twenty years ago when, let's face it, the US manufacturers were building some truly atrocious cars.

I disagree. I can drive around the region an see lot's of old Buicks, Oldmobiles, and Chevrolets but few Toyotas. Not because people didn't buy them then, because they rust out and fall apart. Maybe toyotas have less trips to the shop in the first 100k, but they don't last longer. I would say most cars were pretty boring and dull tho in that era.

[Blake Noble]

Ahhhh, I see - so the comment that "Toyota has no passion" really meant "'Toyota has no passion in the US consumer's marketplace in 2008."

Well, in not so many words, exactly.

It is my fault for not clarifying earlier. I started to, but didn't.

Like I said before, Toyota are famed primarily for appliance-like products, but now and again they do bring along something special - such as the Celica GT-Four which was sold in many markets worldwide for a number of years.

But all evidence shows that those days are more than likely gone from Toyota. No MR2, no Celica, no Supra; the three products that managed to give the company something an enthusiast could actually seem to aspire to own are long gone.

[Guest aatbloke]

I disagree. I can drive around the region an see lot's of old Buicks, Oldmobiles, and Chevrolets but few Toyotas. Not because people didn't buy them then, because they rust out and fall apart. Maybe toyotas have less trips to the shop in the first 100k, but they don't last longer. I would say most cars were pretty boring and dull tho in that era.

Noone said they won any beauty contests. But sorry, Toyotas in the 1980's would run on next to nothing, and did so effortlessly. GM's Corsica and Lumina were no match for the Camry in terms of mechanical longevity. Yes, they rusted before they stopped running, but the average punter doesn't keep a car for 20 years and 300K miles, either. As a business, Toyota knew this: as such, they gained their reputation for near flawless reliability, not flawless bodywork.

[LosAngeles]

I would say most cars were pretty boring and dull tho in that era.

Lesses here:

G-body Monte Carlo was still around.

IROC-Z

Trans Am GTA

Fiero GT

LeSabre T-Type

debut of the Beretta

Cutlass Supreme

Omni GLH

A2 GTI/Jetta GLI

Scirocco

Supra

MR2

Celica All-Trac (GT-Four in the rest of the world)

Corolla GT-S

Corolla FX16

RX-7

MX-6

323 GTX

CRX

Civic Si

Prelude

quite cool Accord fastback

Legend

Integra

Mustang

Thunderbird Turbo Coupe

Taurus SHO

Escort GT

300CE

M3

6-series

5-series

Starion/Conquest

300ZX

Sterling

all those off the top of the head.

Plus a ton of great '89s debuted that fall.

So I'd say I disagree. The 88 calendar year had much enjoyable machinery (some even still cool by today's standards)

[The O.C.]

How many Toyota Cressidas do you still see milling around? How many Cutlass Cierras... or Buick Centurys of the same vintage do you see?

I bet the number of of ~1985 vintage Cressidas + Camrys still running is less than the number of Cutlass Cierras alone.... much less the entire A-body lineup.

Well, I hardly ever see any A-bodies around unless they are in the "ghetto" and in rusted-out shape. I never, NEVER see any old A-body (or similar generation GM products) on the road in any sort of decent condition.

[Guest aatbloke]

Well, in not so many words, exactly.

It is my fault for not clarifying earlier. I started to, but didn't.

But all evidence shows that those days are more than likely gone from Toyota. No MR2, no Celica, no Supra; the three products that managed to give the company something an enthusiast could actually seem to aspire to own are long gone.

You need to remember that by and large, most mainstream Toyota models are built for global markets - which is where they differ to North American Chevrolets, for example. The glut in the once teeming large coupe sector in Europe particularly saw the end to large coupes from Fiat (Coupe), Toyota (Celica), Volkswagen (Scirocco/Corrado) and Ford (Capri/Cougar) in the past fifteen-twenty years. Volkswagen are now returning with one, however those from other manufacturers remain hearsay.

Likewise with small coupes and roadsters - wealthy PA's have swapped their Ford Pumas, Toyota MR2s, MGFs and Opel Tigras for the boom in small performance hatchbacks from likes of BMW and Audi in the past decade.

The thing is, Toyota as a business knows what it is ... and that is the provider of an average reliable car to the average sensible buyer. It's never been known as the source of supercars, never been known for pushing the envelope in a particular arena (save for hybrids) and its certainly never been known as a Q-car marque - which is why it created Lexus. It'll only build what it knows it can make money with, which is why you rarely hear of the company announcing enormous losses.

[The O.C.]

I have no beef with Toyota - they have a range of largely appliance-like cars, but every now and again they do come up with something rather special. The old Celica GT-4 was a great example.

If I had to choose a Toyota today, I'd plump for an Auris SR180 with its 175bhp 2.2 litre turbodiesel good for almost 50mpg (US) at highway speeds.

I'm the same way.

I voted that I have no beef with Toyota either. I sincerely respect the amazing sales performance and reputation they've been able to develop here in the U.S.......(and puleeeez no responses about the Japanese manipulation of the yen, etc, etc.)

It's not my cup of tea......and I'd most likely never buy a Toyota.......but I see nothing fundamentally wrong with them or their products other than the fact that I find them relatively boring and appliance-like.

[CARBIZ]

Noone said they won any beauty contests. But sorry, Toyotas in the 1980's would run on next to nothing, and did so effortlessly. GM's Corsica and Lumina were no match for the Camry in terms of mechanical longevity. Yes, they rusted before they stopped running, but the average punter doesn't keep a car for 20 years and 300K miles, either. As a business, Toyota knew this: as such, they gained their reputation for near flawless reliability, not flawless bodywork.

Desrosiers marketing did a study in 2000 of pre-1987 and post -1987 domestic versus import vehicles sold in Canada, comparing those still licensed and on the road in 2000. In both cases, there were still more domestic vehicles on the road, proportionate to their original sales, than the imports. Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick did exceptionally well, not surprisingly. The reason for the separate categories of years was due to the fact that the Asian luxury brands came into being in 1987 and Desrosiers wanted to see if that would make any kind of an impact. At the time, Dennis Desrosiers and Jim Kenzie (freelance auto journalist extraodinaire) puzzled over why this went contrary to their 'expectations.' Jim Kenzie mused that perhaps the reason for Toyota's 'sterling' reputation was because their vehicles were seen by the dealer more often ('coupon' service being all the rage then for Japan). I still view this as being largely the case: if you'd told my father that he had to service his '69 Chrysler or '75 LTD at the dealer, he would have told the manufacturer to shove it, but that is precisely what the imports trained their customers to blindly do. Dealer servicing = service bulletins that the customer knows nothing about.

The trouble with blanket statements like 'Toyotas in the 1980's would run on next to nothing..' is that compared to their contemporary domestics, they were built of nothing. For example, a former BF of mine gushed about his 1990 Accord and what a great vehicle it was: 5 spd, a/c, radio and not much of anything else. (But he overlook the cable and switch on the floor to operate the heater that his father had patched together for him.)

The wave of owners 'pissed off' by bad experiences with Detroit in the mid-80s, who would trade in their '85 Pontiac 6000 for a '91 Camry, and then expound to anyone who would listen how their Camry was so much better. HELLO! I would hope so. It's called PROGRESS. If a '91 Camry wasn't better than a 6 year old 6000, Toyota should be ashamed.

This wave of anger toward the domestics has carried on for a generation because the so-called writers of the car rags today are the very same people who hated their mother's '79 Dodge Mirada, complete with lean burn ignition, and bought a Datsun 510 out of college. All of their biases are based on those experiences which now taint everything they touch or look at out of Detroit.

And we still hear the BS coming from 'experts' on both sides of the pond.

Edited April 3, 2008 by CARBIZ

[CARBIZ]

Well, I hardly ever see any A-bodies around unless they are in the "ghetto" and in rusted-out shape. I never, NEVER see any old A-body (or similar generation GM products) on the road in any sort of decent condition.

I pass a pristine '96 Century wagon walking my dog every night. I will admit that the number of A bodies still on the roads around here (home of nearly every salter truck in the Known Universe) has declined precipitously in the past few years, but I still see the odd one - usually driven by a woman who is only a few years younger than God.

[The O.C.]

OK.....not to defend Toyota......but let's look at a couple of things......

How is a (admittedly new in '09) Corolla any more "boring" than a Cobalt LS/LT sedan?

How is a Camry any more "boring" than an Impala? Even a V6 Camry will run close to a V8 Impala SS.

Or....how is a Malibu (as much as I like it more than the Camry) that much less boring than a Camry overall?

How is a Lucerne any more "exciting" than an Avalon....? A V6 Avalon will dust a V8 Lucerne....if your definition of "not boring" is performance....?

All I'm saying.....is that yes....Toyotas are "boring".....but GM has it's fair share of boring appliances as well.....let's just call a spade a spade.....I'd most likely take most any GM product (Cobalt, Malibu, Lucerne, etc.) over a comparative Toyota....but not because I find the GM product necessarily that much more "exciting...."

[Guest aatbloke]

Desrosiers marketing did a study in 2000 of pre-1987 and post -1987 domestic versus import vehicles sold in Canada, comparing those still licensed and on the road in 2000. In both cases, there were still more domestic vehicles on the road, proportionate to their original sales, than the imports. Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick did exceptionally well, not surprisingly. The reason for the separate categories of years was due to the fact that the Asian luxury brands came into being in 1987 and Desrosiers wanted to see if that would make any kind of an impact. At the time, Dennis Desrosiers and Jim Kenzie (freelance auto journalist extraodinaire) puzzled over why this went contrary to their 'expectations.' Jim Kenzie mused that perhaps the reason for Toyota's 'sterling' reputation was because their vehicles were seen by the dealer more often ('coupon' service being all the rage then for Japan). I still view this as being largely the case: if you'd told my father that he had to service his '69 Chrysler or '75 LTD at the dealer, he would have told the manufacturer to shove it, but that is precisely what the imports trained their customers to blindly do. Dealer servicing = service bulletins that the customer knows nothing about.

The trouble with blanket statements like 'Toyotas in the 1980's would run on next to nothing..' is that compared to their contemporary domestics, they were built of nothing. For example, a former BF of mine gushed about his 1990 Accord and what a great vehicle it was: 5 spd, a/c, radio and not much of anything else. (But he overlook the cable and switch on the floor to operate the heater that his father had patched together for him.)

The wave of owners 'pissed off' by bad experiences with Detroit in the mid-80s, who would trade in their '85 Pontiac 6000 for a '91 Camry, and then expound to anyone who would listen how their Camry was so much better. HELLO! I would hope so. It's called PROGRESS. If a '91 Camry wasn't better than a 6 year old 6000, Toyota should be ashamed.

This wave of anger toward the domestics has carried on for a generation because the so-called writers of the car rags today are the very same people who hated their mother's '79 Dodge Mirada, complete with lean burn ignition, and bought a Datsun 510 out of college. All of their biases are based on those experiences which now taint everything they touch or look at out of Detroit.

And we still hear the BS coming from 'experts' on both sides of the pond.

The BS only comes from the so-called blue-collar "domestic" fanatics who see Toyota only as some form of evil. I'm sure your little study did show a good number of domestic products on the road, but then again they were hardly outnumbered by imported cars to begin with.

The truth of the matter is that Toyota and Honda caught the US Big 3 with their pants down in the 1970's and 1980's. They achieved phenomenal public perception as average, affordable vehicles with outstanding reliability expected from a more expensive car. The US companies since then have clawed their way back, but the reputation will take a long time to follow - hence the domestic fanatics pushing their cause on various online forums.

Even today, the Japanese recipe for success rests with producing consumable items which the rest of the world wants - whether it be cars, copiers, or cameras. No other nation comes close. I'm no big Japanese flag waver, but that's the real world, whether you choose to accept it or not.

[Guest aatbloke]

I pass a pristine '96 Century wagon walking my dog every night. I will admit that the number of A bodies still on the roads around here (home of nearly every salter truck in the Known Universe) has declined precipitously in the past few years, but I still see the odd one - usually driven by a woman who is only a few years younger than God.

Everyday stuff, that.

[SoCalCTS]

Even today, the Japanese recipe for success rests with producing consumable items which the rest of the world wants - whether it be cars, copiers, or cameras. No other nation comes close. I'm no big Japanese flag waver, but that's the real world, whether you choose to accept it or not.

I can't think of a single Japanese item that I want or must have. You are living in the past. All the best stuff is coming from Apple or Samsung. Japan is still cranking out cameras but really who cares? Kodak is still the best.

[LosAngeles]

While I get the political statement to be made while buying a car (because I also think American cars need to fight back for a greater piece of the road again)....elsewhere, I think differently...

I can't think of a single Japanese item that I want or must have. You are living in the past. All the best stuff is coming from Apple or Samsung. Japan is still cranking out cameras but really who cares? Kodak is still the best.

I can't think of a single Kodak I'd want over a Minolta or Nikon.

I'm sure folks aren't screaming to stay from Japanese brands when looking for a plasma or LCD TV. Sharp, Panasonic, Sony, et al, still do their numbers....

The iPod and the cell phone may have changed the culture quite significantly, but Japan isn't leaving American lives anytime soon...

[Guest aatbloke]

I can't think of a single Japanese item that I want or must have. You are living in the past. All the best stuff is coming from Apple or Samsung. Japan is still cranking out cameras but really who cares? Kodak is still the best.

"I can't think of a single Japanese item that I want or must have."

You're the one that's going to argue against 30-odd million Corolla buyers then, not I.

"All the best stuff is coming from Apple or Samsung."

Producing flash cellular phones doesn't constitute "the best stuff."

"Kodak is still the best."

Evidently America is stuck in some sort of parallel universe to the rest of the world who generally consider a Leica (which granted isn't Japanese) or a Nikon to be a pretty top quality camera as opposed to a glorified Brownie.

[BrewSwillis]

The only small car built here by an American MFG co. is the Cobalt as far as I know.

Civic is Japanese company but built here, Corolla is built at NUMMI in Cali but Japanese company, Hyundai is built in Alabama by Korean Company, Avenger and Sebring are built in Mexico, Focus, HHR, PT, Et all are built in Mexico, Astra is built in Belgium IIRC, GTI/Rabbit is built in Wolfsburg Germany, Scion/Mazda 3/Miata etc. built in Japan...

Suziki, Mitsubishi, Nissan built by evil lords of darkness in the remote rainforests of the Amazon....

Chris

Why do people think the Sebring and Avenger are built in Mexico?? I had to correct somebody in another forum that said that (was it you ) . They are built in Sterling Heights, Michigan.....my hometown....my friend works there! However, I wouldn't exactly call them a "small" car.

[CARBIZ]

The BS only comes from the so-called blue-collar "domestic" fanatics who see Toyota only as some form of evil. I'm sure your little study did show a good number of domestic products on the road, but then again they were hardly outnumbered by imported cars to begin with.

The truth of the matter is that Toyota and Honda caught the US Big 3 with their pants down in the 1970's and 1980's. They achieved phenomenal public perception as average, affordable vehicles with outstanding reliability expected from a more expensive car. The US companies since then have clawed their way back, but the reputation will take a long time to follow - hence the domestic fanatics pushing their cause on various online forums.

Even today, the Japanese recipe for success rests with producing consumable items which the rest of the world wants - whether it be cars, copiers, or cameras. No other nation comes close. I'm no big Japanese flag waver, but that's the real world, whether you choose to accept it or not.

Please look up the word PROPORTIONATE. The study was definitive: it took into account how many imports versus domestics were sold in a given year and how many of those were still plated on the road. They dredged up hundreds of thousands of registrations over a period of 2 decades. This was far more accurate than merely observing that Civics and Camrys rusted and fell apart in 8 years (true, by the way.) I certainly would expect to see more A-bodies on the road today because GM sold far more of them than Toyota did the Corolla or Camry, back in the '80s.

... and it wasn't my 'little study.' Desrosiers marketing is the JD Powers of Canada.

The only truth is that with the twin oil shocks of the '70s, the bumper standards of the mid- 70s, the pollution controls that started in the early '70s - all of these conspired to form a perfect storm of events that sent Detroit spinning out of control. It took them a decade to recover. It can be easily argued that many of their answers to the problems (the econoboxes of the '80s that we love to laught at today) were wrong-headed thinking, but that is through the advantage of retrospective observation. It is easy to see how a 78 horspower Datsun 210 with a stick, no air and a radio would be more 'fun' to drive to a college student than an overweight, underpowered Buick Skyhawk of the same era; however, Detroit was trying to downsize their land barges without alienating their core customers - no easy task when for 30 years the mantra was 'bigger, faster, longer.'

All of this only helps to explain the media's previous perceptions of Detroit versus the imports. It does not justify their continued carping on Detroit for the past.

[CARBIZ]

While I get the political statement to be made while buying a car (because I also think American cars need to fight back for a greater piece of the road again)....elsewhere, I think differently...

I can't think of a single Kodak I'd want over a Minolta or Nikon.

I'm sure folks aren't screaming to stay from Japanese brands when looking for a plasma or LCD TV. Sharp, Panasonic, Sony, et al, still do their numbers....

The iPod and the cell phone may have changed the culture quite significantly, but Japan isn't leaving American lives anytime soon...

But do we have any choice any more? Japan Inc saw to it that Electrohome, RCA, Philco and the others were either run out of business, bought out, or moved their production overseas. Zenith was the best tlelevision manufacturer for decades (I know, we owned 2), but even they could not sustain the onslaught of Japanese televisions that were dumped on our shores in the '70s by Sharp, Hitachi and others - with the full weight and backing of the Japanese government.

When will we ever learn? It is happening now with Boeing. All the might and weight of Europe is being brought against it, in the form of Aerbus. Soon the Chinese will join in the fray. It isn't enough that Americans are envied and hated throughout the world, but the amount of self-hating that goes on is the real culprit.

You guys have to learn to stand up and take back what is yours - and that means supporting American companies that are trying to swim the tide. Forget about the bull$h! and smokescreens that some people on this board try to throw up. The truth will prevail, but it is getting harder to find it these days.