PRESS: Japanese Govt paid for Toyota Hybrid system

[enzl]

Being as I am CANADIAN, and being as General Motors is listed on the TSX as a CANADIAN car company, then I am to believe that Oshawa is fully independent and not in any way owned by General Motors in Detroit?

It so easy to see why we are in the mess that we are: lawyers and accountants can muddy the waters of any discourse or debate and it is in their best interests to do so. I have seen many, many simple issues get bled away and debated into oblivion by professional obfuscators who delight in twisting arguments to make them unnecessarily complex. Whipping out impressive charts and references to obscure links do not necessarily prove a point.

For the record, I studied Japanese trade practices when I was at university, albeit that was a long time ago. How can it be explained away that MITI granted Toshiba and others sugar beet import quotas to Japan at a $1 a ton higher than the going rate? How can it be that companies like Toys R Us, or Houidille INternational (a Texas tool and die company) had visas cancelled by the Prime Minister's office?

I am not intimidated, sir, but after posting on this site for 3 years, it gets a little wearisome to tackle every new Poster of the Month who comes along with too much time on their hands, who throws a lot of $20 words around (or in your case 15 pound words) and thinks that it is jolly good that we should have our countries bought up and exported to Asia and let our children pay for it. We only discuss the auto industry in detail because that is what this site is about, but it is not merely the auto industry that is at stake here. Japan does not practice open markets. China does not practice open markets. If we are so foolish as to think that China is 'allowing' our companies to transplant their for the over all good of the planet is stupid. Insanely stupid. Japan never even bothered to pretend foreign nationals could compete there. China is too clever to think we would be so stupid to go down that road again, so under the guise of 'partnerships' we are allowed to participate in their miracle economy.

Strange how those 'partnerships' always involve the transfer of technology, no?

I appreciate your passion, but the issue is our governments' lack of backbone, not Japanese or Chinese companies that take advantage of a system tilted towards their success...its like asking a shark not to feed...

Until or unless we get off our addiction to cheap goods or recognize as nations that our future and security depend upon things like a manufacturing base or independence from foreign energy, you're just tilting at windmills.

All of that being said, many western multinationals have excelled in the New World of the International Economy. This site happens to be dedicated to one that hasn't--and that is mostly it's own fault, unfortunately.

[Guest aatbloke]

Being as I am CANADIAN, and being as General Motors is listed on the TSX as a CANADIAN car company, then I am to believe that Oshawa is fully independent and not in any way owned by General Motors in Detroit?

It so easy to see why we are in the mess that we are: lawyers and accountants can muddy the waters of any discourse or debate and it is in their best interests to do so. I have seen many, many simple issues get bled away and debated into oblivion by professional obfuscators who delight in twisting arguments to make them unnecessarily complex. Whipping out impressive charts and references to obscure links do not necessarily prove a point.

For the record, I studied Japanese trade practices when I was at university, albeit that was a long time ago. How can it be explained away that MITI granted Toshiba and others sugar beet import quotas to Japan at a $1 a ton higher than the going rate? How can it be that companies like Toys R Us, or Houidille INternational (a Texas tool and die company) had visas cancelled by the Prime Minister's office?

I am not intimidated, sir, but after posting on this site for 3 years, it gets a little wearisome to tackle every new Poster of the Month who comes along with too much time on their hands, who throws a lot of $20 words around (or in your case 15 pound words) and thinks that it is jolly good that we should have our countries bought up and exported to Asia and let our children pay for it. We only discuss the auto industry in detail because that is what this site is about, but it is not merely the auto industry that is at stake here. Japan does not practice open markets. China does not practice open markets. If we are so foolish as to think that China is 'allowing' our companies to transplant their for the over all good of the planet is stupid. Insanely stupid. Japan never even bothered to pretend foreign nationals could compete there. China is too clever to think we would be so stupid to go down that road again, so under the guise of 'partnerships' we are allowed to participate in their miracle economy.

Strange how those 'partnerships' always involve the transfer of technology, no?

GM has to set up Canadian subsidiary companies if it is to operate there in anyway, and they have comply with Canadian company law. However, GM's Canadian operation is not autonomous from Detroit as their European operation is, and that's mainly due to the nature of the market. GM Europe was set up in 1978 and is headquartered in Zurich. It is charged with handling everything the development of Vauxhall/Opel products, the importation of North American GM vehicles via Kroymanns in the Netherlands, right down to dealership structures and financing.

You're aware that MITI was disbanded seven years ago, right? You're keen to mention Toys R Us but fail to mention the likes of HJ Heinz and Alcoa - two former clients of mine - who do quite well out of Japan.

Quite honestly, I'm not interested in how long you've posted on here. I'm not interested in how you view I spend my time - indeed, I wish I did have too much time on my hands - but when I see idiots who claim they understand business structure just from perusing some notes to a much abridged set of publicly issued group accounts and classic quotes such as "the profits all go to such and such" then yes I'll say my piece. I myself am not a mechanic, so I'm not going to spout any BS on here as to how I think a certain car's mechanicals should be set up. I'm an accountant with plenty of industry knowledge, so from that angle I can spot BS'ers a mile away. Furthermore, I have no blind allegiance to any one country's car industry - I take an interest in them all.

I'm pretty astute, too. While the Chinese and Japanese are protective of their industries and in the past Japanese government bodies have been rather blatantly unfair, those practices in essence no longer apply, especially since the Yen was floated on foreign exchanges in the 70's. In Britain we blamed everyone - including the Japanese - for our ailing indigenous industry, but the truth was we didn't build products the rest of the world wanted. The same goes for Americans. Even in Europe, we get a handful of decent executive cars - new-age Cadillacs are a force to be reckoned with - but what do Americans put on the table for the ordinary European working man? Dodge Caliber and Avenger sure, perhaps even the PT Cruiser if you really want to look different - but absolutely nothing else. Compared to the raft of ordinary cars the Japanese offer us, the Americans are basically there as a token gesture. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the difference between the Japanese and Americans is simple: the Japanese can adapt their native offerings to different markets, but the Americans give everyone their own take on how a product should be and hope the market accepts it. The Chevrolet Blazer and Ford Explorer were perfect examples of how not do do your homework in Europe. I cannot think of a single American-made car which would cater to the demands of the typical Japanese urbanite who can't own anything larger than a city car or else face punitive taxation consequences ... so tell me Einstein, what do you think you have to offer?

When you talk about closed markets, like I said talk to any NHTSA-registered private import specialist and they'll tell you where the single biggest closed market in the world is. Many years ago I owned a venerable old Ford Bronco which I loved. A Florida vehicle originally, it spent most of its life in France. I shipped it to the US as my weekend 4x4 plaything when I trasferred there with my job. Despite all the stickers claiming it was built to FMVSS, I still had to prove it. After six weeks on the dockside, I finally received confirmation by letter - along with the car's wiring diagram for heaven sakes - from Ford's World HQ that thevehicle concerned was originally intended for US sale. US customs weren't even interested that during its time in France, the engine had been rebuilt using some engine parts from a German Ford Granada and the lighting had been completely adapated to European standards. See? Bizarre.

As for your so-called "$20 words":you can use any verbiage you like and I won't be interested. If the general quality of these boards is such that its posters can only handle monosyllabic words, then fine, I'll use them.

Edited March 28, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

OK, that's enough.

The interest of this board supercedes all other concerns. As an administrator of C&G, I am asking that the comabativeness in this thread (and others) be tempered a bit. Debate and disagreement are being reduced to insult and attack which runs counter to our rules of conduct.

I've said this before but it bears repeating. Newcomers should spend a bit more time reading and getting to know the crowd here before engaging in incendiary and counter-productive battles. A wide range of perspectives, backgrounds, and areas of expertise, make this site a broader repository of knowledge concerning the automobile than most others. Let's not squander that on petty and unsolveable differences.

Some sparring is to be expected and is tolerated (even enjoyed) here, but let's keep the unvarnished animosity to a minimum.

[Guest aatbloke]

OK, that's enough.

The interest of this board supercedes all other concerns. As an administrator of C&G, I am asking that the comabativeness in this thread (and others) be tempered a bit. Debate and disagreement are being reduced to insult and attack which runs counter to our rules of conduct.

I've said this before but it bears repeating. Newcomers should spend a bit more time reading and getting to know the crowd here before engaging in incendiary and counter-productive battles. A wide range of perspectives, backgrounds, and areas of expertise, make this site a broader repository of knowledge concerning the automobile than most others. Let's not squander that on petty and unsolveable differences.

Some sparring is to be expected and is tolerated (even enjoyed) here, but let's keep the unvarnished animosity to a minimum.

No animosity here - but I'm not going to ignore the facts as to how businesses are structured just to appease nationalistic preferences and jingoistic slurs.

[Camino LS6]

No animosity here - but I'm not going to ignore the facts as to how businesses are structured just to appease nationalistic preferences and jingoistic slurs.

To be blunt, your posts often end with nationalistic barbs and stereotypical slurs.

I'm simply requesting that you self-edit a bit.

[Intrepidation]

No animosity here - but I'm not going to ignore the facts as to how businesses are structured just to appease nationalistic preferences and jingoistic slurs.

Like implying someone is an idiot? That's quite mature.

[Guest aatbloke]

To be blunt, your posts often end with nationalistic barbs and stereotypical slurs.

I'm simply requesting that you self-edit a bit.

To be blunt, I don't ignore slurs such as referring to the Japanese as "evil" or "racist" just because I'm American or European, either.

[Guest aatbloke]

Like implying someone is an idiot? That's quite mature.

As is blaming others for one's own failings.

[Intrepidation]

As is blaming others for one's own failings.

See there's a difference between blaming an entity for something (deserved or not) and making a personal insult. I would think you'd be smart enough to realize that, and that's what Camino is asking you to tone down.

Edited March 28, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Guest aatbloke]

See there's a difference between blaming an entity for something (deserved or not) and making a personal insult. I would think you'd be smart enough to realize that, and that's what Camino is asking you to tone down.

That wasn't a personal insult. I don't even know anyone personally on here for their to be any insult. You on the other hand are questioning whether I am "smart" (such a lovely term.)

That could, on the other hand, be rather different for those throwing stones at the Japanese to be receiving a taste of their own medicine from jolly foreigner.

Edited March 28, 2008 by aatbloke

[Intrepidation]

That wasn't a personal insult. I don't even know anyone personally on here for their to be any insult. You on the other hand are questioning whether I am "smart" (such a lovely term.)

That could, on the other hand, be rather different for those throwing stones at the Japanese to be receiving a taste of their own medicine from jolly foreigner.

You know for someone who enjoys pointing out when someone seems defensive Or scared" you get pretty defensive yourself. It's obvious you're intelligent, you have a lot of knowledge to bring to the table. This is something that everyone enjoys reading, even when sparring ensues. The problem is that, based one most of your posts I've read so far, you say it with a holier-than-thou attitude and if someone disagrees how dare them. I think all parties need to show more respect for each other, and maybe get to know each other a bit. You'll find that'll will make it a more enjoyable place for you and everyone else.

Edited March 28, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Guest aatbloke]

You know for someone who enjoys pointing out when someone seems defensive Or scared" you get pretty defensive yourself. It's obvious you're intelligent, you have a lot of knowledge to bring to the table. This is something that everyone enjoys reading, even when sparring ensues. The problem is that, based one most of your posts I've read so far, you say it with a holier-than-thou attitude and if someone disagrees how dare them. I think all parties need to show more respect for each other, and maybe get to know each other a bit. You'll find that'll will make it a more enjoyable place for you and everyone else.

So tell me, is the derogatory term "Chinese POS" as you so clearly state in the thread about the Chinese coming to the US your idea of being "mature"?

I've seen people blatantly argue on here that Opel was an "American" company, for example. That simply isn't true. It's nothing to do with opinions and everything to do with facts. Furthermore, why are some people blaming a Japanese governmental organisation which hasn't even existed for seven years for current US auto industry woes?

I get the impression that there are a group of people here blinded by nationalistic pride.

Edited March 28, 2008 by aatbloke

[Intrepidation]

So tell me, is the derogatory term "Chinese POS" as you so clearly state in the thread about the Geely GT concept your idea of being "mature"?

I've seen people blatantly argue on here that Opel was an "American" company, for example. That simply isn't true. It's nothing to do with opinions and everything to do with facts. Furthermore, why are some people blaming a Japanese governmental organisation which hasn't even existed for seven years for current US auto industry woes?

I get the impression that there are a group of people here blinded by nationalistic pride.

You have me there, kind of, but it's not the same as a personal insult or attack, where on purpose or not. Plus you can't argue with that most of the stuff that comes out of China is currently junk. Can't tell you how many Made in China products I've had the "pleasure" of owning have broken when they shouldn't have.

Opel is a subsidiary of GM, so it belongs to an American company, but it has its own programs to cater to the European market. It's not "American" like Pontiac, but it's "American" because it's owned and operated by GM.

[enzl]

So tell me, is the derogatory term "Chinese POS" as you so clearly state in the thread about the Geely GT concept your idea of being "mature"?

I've seen people blatantly argue on here that Opel was an "American" company, for example. That simply isn't true. It's nothing to do with opinions and everything to do with facts. Furthermore, why are some people blaming a Japanese governmental organisation which hasn't even existed for seven years for current US auto industry woes?

I get the impression that there are a group of people here blinded by nationalistic pride.

You've got to let it go...as someone here that is constantly in the minority opinion, I realize how frustrating it can be to have your cogent explanations interpreted incorrectly or worse--and the slurs here are inappropriate as well--but I think you'll find that if you're right, the flamers will melt away.

The personal stuff may be tempting, but it's counterproductive---they'll just use it to chase you off. The better bet is to impart knowlege and hope it sinks in---just my .02.

[Guest aatbloke]

You have me there, kind of, but it's not the same as a personal insult or attack, where on purpose or not. Plus you can't argue with that most of the stuff that comes out of China is currently junk. Can't tell you how many Made in China products I've had the "pleasure" of owning have broken when they shouldn't have.

Opel is a subsidiary of GM, so it belongs to an American company, but it has its own programs to cater to the European market. It's not "American" like Pontiac, but it's "American" because it's owned and operated by GM.

A company's domicile is not dependent on that of its owner. That is not an opinion, it is fact. Adam Opel GmbH is a private (i.e. not floated on an exchange) German company. It is registered in Germany and conforms to German company law. It's required to draw up its own annual financial statements and it requires an independent audit. The company's Articles state that it is a German company. It is, however, a wholly-owned subsidiary of a public American company (GM), but that in no way makes Opel itself American.

If a company's domicile was based upon that of its shareholders, then Opel would be American, but GM itself would not be American, because its shareholders are multinational.

Pontiac isn't a company. It is not a legal entity in its own right with its own share capital. It's merely a brand name, the legal rights to usage of which are owned by GM.

You don't know that "most of the stuff out of China" is junk. In fact it's a pretty bold claim to make. Why? Because there are few car export markets of the Chinese in order for anyone to make that claim. They do have some shoddy products, but others are based on sound, existing cars.

Edited March 29, 2008 by aatbloke

[cletus8269]

pos is a term that can be applied to anything... not just chinese japanese whatever. we had a McCulloch chainsaw it wouldnt reliably start to save its life... its a POS made in mexico, its replacement? a Husqvarna that is most deffinately not a pos it starts everytime and now has 6 years under its belt. me and a buddy are constantly hacking at each others rides. hes a ford guy im chevy... ford is POS ot me, Chevy is POS to him. it boils down to opinions are like buttholes, everyones got one and half of them stink. even with a gun pointed at someone you rarely if ever will change someones point of view.

[Camino LS6]

A certain level of civility is all that's required here, let's make that happen shall we?

[Guest aatbloke]

pos is a term that can be applied to anything... not just chinese japanese whatever. we had a McCulloch chainsaw it wouldnt reliably start to save its life... its a POS made in mexico, its replacement? a Husqvarna that is most deffinately not a pos it starts everytime and now has 6 years under its belt. me and a buddy are constantly hacking at each others rides. hes a ford guy im chevy... ford is POS ot me, Chevy is POS to him. it boils down to opinions are like buttholes, everyones got one and half of them stink. even with a gun pointed at someone you rarely if ever will change someones point of view.

No disrespect, but I myself think it's tantamount to petulant slander to use the term "POS". It's one thing to hold a negative opinion about something backed up with sound rationale, but liberally brushing the products of an entire country's industry as "POS" is quite another.

[Guest aatbloke]

You've got to let it go...as someone here that is constantly in the minority opinion, I realize how frustrating it can be to have your cogent explanations interpreted incorrectly or worse--and the slurs here are inappropriate as well--but I think you'll find that if you're right, the flamers will melt away.

The personal stuff may be tempting, but it's counterproductive---they'll just use it to chase you off. The better bet is to impart knowlege and hope it sinks in---just my .02.

I couldn't agree with you more!

[VenSeattle]

You know... this topic is becoming mired down in unrelated subjects that could be discussed elsewhere... like the lounge.

Please try to refocus on Toyota's hybrid R&D being funded by the Japanese government.

Save all the hi-fives and pats-on-the-back for another topic too.

[enzl]

Save all the hi-fives and pats-on-the-back for another topic too.

Timely save by a mod!

Two minority opinions were about to unite and overtake the board!

Wow. I can't believe that Toyota let the gov't pay for research that has given them a competitive advantage & that the Detroit 3 just took their gov't money and flushed it...it's sooo much cooler to waste the gov't resources, rather than create factories full of future jobs with that dirty money.

Feel better now, Ven?

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

You two just don't get it, do you? I'm new here and I have seen nothing but personal attacks from both of you since I started on this board. It is one thing to disagree, but quite another to get all holier than thou and condescending. It leaves for an unpleasant taste in newcomer's mouths and belittles your argument. Getting personal and nasty just makes one's argument look desperate and cheapens the dialogue. There is no need of it.