Mark LaNeve: Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car

[Oracle of Delphi]

The hits just keep on coming for fans of the Chevy Camaro. Just yesterday, we quoted Bob Lutz as suggesting that the Camaro could get a four-cylinder engine option. Now we hear that Mark LaNeve, VP of sales and marketing for GM North America, says that, "We won't position it as a muscle car," speaking again of the 2010 Camaro. Sure, you could spend hours debating the terms "muscle car" and "pony car", but we're pretty sure that very few ever thought of the Camaro as a fuel-efficient option. But, that's exactly how GM will position it. "The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6," says LaNeve.

The truth seems to be that GM just cannot afford to sell a couple hundred thousand Camaros a year with V8 engines rated at around 20 miles per gallon combined. But, before V8-lovers get too upset, remember that it is the fuel efficient engine options which make the fire-breathing V8 an option at all. Without mainstream options like either a direct-injected V6 or even a small turbocharged 4, there is simply no way that Chevrolet could ever reintroduce the Camaro at all.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/22/mark-la...s-a-muscle-car/

[enzl]

Just caught the article.

Anything that'll sell more good GM cars is OK with me.

[ZL-1]

Wasn't it Lutz himself that said GM would be raising prices to dry up demand for larger engines? I'm thinking Camaro fans should get ready: the car won't be as cheap as people expect it to be, especially on V8 models.

Edited March 22, 2008 by ZL-1

[Drew Dowdell]

so position it as a sports car.... what's the problem here?

[The O.C.]

The hits just keep on coming for fans of the Chevy Camaro. Just yesterday, we quoted Bob Lutz as suggesting that the Camaro could get a four-cylinder engine option. Now we hear that Mark LaNeve, VP of sales and marketing for GM North America, says that, "We won't position it as a muscle car," speaking again of the 2010 Camaro. Sure, you could spend hours debating the terms "muscle car" and "pony car", but we're pretty sure that very few ever thought of the Camaro as a fuel-efficient option. But, that's exactly how GM will position it. "The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6," says LaNeve.

The truth seems to be that GM just cannot afford to sell a couple hundred thousand Camaros a year with V8 engines rated at around 20 miles per gallon combined. But, before V8-lovers get too upset, remember that it is the fuel efficient engine options which make the fire-breathing V8 an option at all. Without mainstream options like either a direct-injected V6 or even a small turbocharged 4, there is simply no way that Chevrolet could ever reintroduce the Camaro at all.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/22/mark-la...s-a-muscle-car/

I'm ALL for different fuel-efficient engine options......the turbo Ecotec, the DI V6.....but to actually try to position the Camaro in the marketplace as anything less than it's traditional standing as a powerful muscle/pony car would be a disaster for GM.

Look at the Mustang......young kids and nostalgic middle-agers lie in bed at night dreaming of a Mustang GT or GT500......but the vast majority of the public DO get the V6. They get the V6 because it's less-expensive, more fuel-efficient, and easier to insure. BUT it was the V8 that got them excited about a Mustang in the first place.

GM needs to take the same stance with the Camaro. They'll kill it if they try to pussify it.

[Camino LS6]

I'm ALL for different fuel-efficient engine options......the turbo Ecotec, the DI V6.....but to actually try to position the Camaro in the marketplace as anything less than it's traditional standing as a powerful muscle/pony car would be a disaster for GM.

Look at the Mustang......young kids and nostalgic middle-agers lie in bed at night dreaming of a Mustang GT or GT500......but the vast majority of the public DO get the V6. They get the V6 because it's less-expensive, more fuel-efficient, and easier to insure. BUT it was the V8 that got them excited about a Mustang in the first place.

GM needs to take the same stance with the Camaro. They'll kill it if they try to pussify it.

[eldiablobanshee]

I'm ALL for different fuel-efficient engine options......the turbo Ecotec, the DI V6.....but to actually try to position the Camaro in the marketplace as anything less than it's traditional standing as a powerful muscle/pony car would be a disaster for GM.

Look at the Mustang......young kids and nostalgic middle-agers lie in bed at night dreaming of a Mustang GT or GT500......but the vast majority of the public DO get the V6. They get the V6 because it's less-expensive, more fuel-efficient, and easier to insure. BUT it was the V8 that got them excited about a Mustang in the first place.

GM needs to take the same stance with the Camaro. They'll kill it if they try to pussify it.

+1

I completely agree. I think GM should keep great prices on the fuel efficient models and then hold nothing back on the v8 and charge for it. No one should complain about the v8s price if the cars got a big hairy set on it.

[Blake Noble]

I could care less what GM positions it or labels it as. The only thing that matters to me is that the basic V6 model does not cost some totally asinine price, which it more than likely won't.

[AAS]

... "The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6," says LaNeve.

...

Oh no!!! They're mostly going to sell V6's!!! I might as well just give up all hope...

So, the whole point of this article is to say that they will push the more fuel efficient models, but to do it with a very doom-and-gloom tone.

[Z-06]

If that is what takes to save the icon and breed it in large numbers, then so be it. I am willing to pay more for the V-8.

[CSpec]

As long as they offer the ridiculous V8 option, this sounds fine and smart. I just hope it's not too heavy.

[pow]

I'm not interested in the Challenger or Mustang at all, but I do like the Camaro precisely because it's more than a traditional retro muscle car. The Camaro can also be a contemporary and sophisticated sports coupe that targets 3-series or G37.

To a lot of the younger generation a "Camaro" means no more than "Genesis Coupe", and GM will have to convince people to choose Camaro over EVO, STI, M, Z, etc. Thankfully the Camaro has more than just power and nostalgia on its side; it is also universally good looking, presumably competent in the bends, and available with a choice of powertrains each appealing to different buyers. Me, I'm most excited for the turbo four, and I don't care for the V8s.

Edited March 22, 2008 by empowah

[Camino LS6]

I'm not interested in the Challenger or Mustang at all, but I do like the Camaro precisely because it's more than a traditional retro muscle car. The Camaro can also be a contemporary and sophisticated sports coupe that targets 3-series or G37.

To a lot of the younger generation a "Camaro" means no more than "Genesis Coupe", and GM will have to convince people to choose Camaro over EVO, STI, M, Z, etc. Thankfully the Camaro has more than just power and nostalgia on its side; it is also universally good looking, presumably competent in the bends, and available with a choice of powertrains each appealing to different buyers. Me, I'm most excited for the turbo four, and I don't care for the V8s.

I hope there are enough people that think as you do so that the V8s can remain with us.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

The more choice the better. There is no way the business model would work with just the V-8. Or doesn't anyone remember that 25 years ago the V-6 Camaro was the ultimate 'secretary's car?'

[Cory Wolfe]

I really don't get the point of this article. It... states the obvious.

[thegriffon]

It's either this or risk the ire of naive congressmen and senators who think cars should have their cylinder count and power limited. Of course they could agree with their competitors no to claim more than 278 hp (no matter how much it really has) for their performance engines, as they used to do in Japan. ("Psst, can you keep a secret? It's got a bitchin' mad V8, but we don't want Hillary to get wind of it.")

[ZL-1]

If that is what takes to save the icon and breed it in large numbers, then so be it. I am willing to pay more for the V-8.

Let me pull a question out of my ass: How much exactly would you be willing to pay for the V8?

[-Camaro-]

Just make a damn V8 that gets 40 mpg and 400hp. Wtf? Worried about costs? You'd be the only one with that engine and they'd sell like hot cakes, you'd make it all back. *shakes head* Seems like GMs only solution for better efficiency is less cylindars. Can't someone in the industry actually build something revolutionary? Oh, I forgot, they can't because they have been bought out by the oil companies.

Not only that... You can't put a V4 on this heavy car. I'm fairly sure this will be 3400+ lbs and will just be too sluggish with a V4.

Edited March 22, 2008 by -Camaro-

[ZL-1]

Not only that... You can't put a V4 on this heavy car. I'm fairly sure this will be 3400+ lbs and will just be too sluggish with a V4.

I4 not V4 :AH-HA_wink:

[hyperv6]

This is the most non news there has been on the Camaro.

Chevy from the start has been ready to make the V6 the prime car that was going to account for 70%+ of the market. Mileage is only one part but they wanted a very affordable V6 that would appeal to most buyers and suit their daily driving needs.

Settlmire pointed out to me back in September that most people want and like the Camaro but not everyone wants a V8. The Mustang can bew proof of his statment.

Besides V8 sell with no promotion but if you have a quality V6 you need to teach people that a good 6 cylinder coupe is not a sin.

I wish people would drop the Muscle car tag as they have not built a real Muscle car for 38 year. To day they are perfromance cars as they are quick, they stop and turn ease. Muscle cars go fast in a straight line and hate turning and stopping. Besides most Muscle cars are not as fast as my V6 FWD V6 is today.

Today folks if it is a 4 cylinder, V6 or V8 theses are the good old days so look around, take it in and enjoy them.

Also Remember the 1988 Fiero GT was classed as a commuter car. Tags are all they are tags.

As for prices the average price of cars today is over $25K so this car even over 30K with a V8 is a bargin.

As for the CAFE, per Settlemire the rules are not fully set for CAFE yet only the 35 MPG standard. GM and the others are waiting for the full list of reg to be written. The MFG are not hjappy with the delay and this is why we have holds on several programs. I am sure they will cave in some areas as that are what they pay people to lobby for. Also after the elections it will be save to cave as not to lose the green vote.

Even Rick W has stated that even though the 3 canidates all think states should be able to set their own standard e felt they would pass that as with the economy being weak it would be a poor move to not only hurt our auto industry but also hurt the recover of the economy.

Yes there will be changes in the future but the sky is not going to fall. We may have to do a few things differently but we will adapt as we have in the past.

The V8 will be around just not as big in a lighter car. Heck for year the Ferrari V12 was only around 5 Liters or less and the V8 was only 3.0-3.4 liters.

Edited March 22, 2008 by hyperv6

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The positive side of me is all for this.

The F4 Camaro was everything that this car will NOT be (thankfully) No one wanted a V6 Camaro back then and unless GM does something to up the appeal of the V6 and I4 options this time around, no one will want them either. Unlike Mustang, GM does not enjoy the luxury of such a wide fan base. The V6 Mustang can sell, no problem because the BRAND speaks louder than the car. The Camaro is the opposite; if the car doesn't perform, then it won't sell. Period.

So here is what I think GM is trying to do: 1) For the sake of CAFE and $$$, they are going to try to make the Camaro appeal to more than just diehard Camaro fans. This is an absolute must to ensure the future of the product. Therefore, the Camaro has to be very well rounded, unlike the F4. 2) They are trying to "build" an image for the Camaro name. The Corvette stands alone and I think that is ultimately the goal for the Camaro as well. In order to do that, they need to attract a diversity of people with different tastes and desires. They could be doing this for a number of reasons; the first is obviously to make the car stand out ala Corvette, the second is to establish it as the new 'top' affordable Chevrolet coupe (Malibu or Impala, especially if it were Zeta as well, would occupy the sedan side) as the Corvette goes up market (ZR1 and the rumored mid engined versions and Cadillac wanting a Cien are enough to establish debate over this) third, they're positioning the Camaro to compete with BMW as well as the Mustang so as to negate the need for a GTO coupe (killing 2 birds with one stone) which would also make a better business case for a Buick Zeta coupe and fourth = exports. 3) They are marketing the V8 to older, better established clients. You know the people who remember the original Camaro, are more likely to have the $$$ to buy it and who are not going to be "conditioned" into 4 cylinders and V6s.

I think this is a wise move that was probably a part of the plan from the start. Lets face it; the Camaro will NEVER be what the Mustang is. So why not try to position the car (with it's more potent/expensive platform) a bit up from the Mustang to attract MORE buyers.

I'm all for options and not everyone needs a V8 car. Just so long as I and enthusiasts like me can buy our V8, we'll be fine.

The negative side of me says that they're trying to kill the car and Zeta in general. They're going to horribly f*ck up the business case, let it sit on the market for 2-3 years, then call the whole thing off with the excuse that "Well, we made true on our promise to the enthusiasts, but they didn't bite." Sounds eerily similar to the SSR, no?

Maybe they'll wind the Camaro down like this, just kill the G8 slowly and cancel all of the other Zeta cars.

*** I hope my positive side is right.

[Oracle of Delphi]

This is the most non news there has been on the Camaro.

Chevy from the start has been ready to make the V6 the prime car that was going to account for 70%+ of the market. Mileage is only one part but they wanted a very affordable V6 that would appeal to most buyers and suit their daily driving needs.

Settlmire pointed out to me back in September that most people want and like the Camaro but not everyone wants a V8. The Mustang can bew proof of his statment.

Besides V8 sell with no promotion but if you have a quality V6 you need to teach people that a good 6 cylinder coupe is not a sin.

I wish people would drop the Muscle car tag as they have not built a real Muscle car for 38 year. To day they are perfromance cars as they are quick, they stop and turn ease. Muscle cars go fast in a straight line and hate turning and stopping. Besides most Muscle cars are not as fast as my V6 FWD V6 is today.

Today folks if it is a 4 cylinder, V6 or V8 theses are the good old days so look around, take it in and enjoy them.

Also Remember the 1988 Fiero GT was classed as a commuter car. Tags are all they are tags.

As for prices the average price of cars today is over $25K so this car even over 30K with a V8 is a bargin.

As for the CAFE, per Settlemire the rules are not fully set for CAFE yet only the 35 MPG standard. GM and the others are waiting for the full list of reg to be written. The MFG are not hjappy with the delay and this is why we have holds on several programs. I am sure they will cave in some areas as that are what they pay people to lobby for. Also after the elections it will be save to cave as not to lose the green vote.

Even Rick W has stated that even though the 3 canidates all think states should be able to set their own standard e felt they would pass that as with the economy being weak it would be a poor move to not only hurt our auto industry but also hurt the recover of the economy.

Yes there will be changes in the future but the sky is not going to fall. We may have to do a few things differently but we will adapt as we have in the past.

The V8 will be around just not as big in a lighter car. Heck for year the Ferrari V12 was only around 5 Liters or less.

Cafe is just the 1st punch of the 1, 2, 3 punches. Punch two will start with CO2 regulations being adopted by Congress and signed by the new President. Speaking of the new President (punch #3), whomever becomes the next president, that president will impose even more restrictions on US Auto Manufacturers. Each candidate has said as much.

Rumors are that GM will increase the cost of V8's on the Camaro so high, that virtually no one picks that option. How long after that until GM doesn't offer a V8 at all on the Camaro, stating it's not cost effective to do so, since no one orders it. GM can then claim it didn't kill the V8, the North American consumers did.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Cafe is just the 1st punch of the 1, 2, 3 punches. Punch two will start with CO2 regulations being adopted by Congress and signed by the new President. Speaking of the new President (punch #3), whomever becomes the next president, that president will impose even more restrictions on US Auto Manufacturers. Each candidate has said as much.

Rumors are that GM will increase the cost of V8's on the Camaro so high, that virtually no one picks that option. How long after that until GM doesn't offer a V8 at all on the Camaro, stating it's not cost effective to do so, since no one orders it. GM can then claim it didn't kill the V8, the North American consumers did.

If I had a dollar for every rumor you've tried to pass off as a prediction on this board, I could've bought us a new server. (Zeta in general, the Camaro, the G8, the G8 ST, the G8 GXP, so on and so forth)

*IF* CO2 regulations are passed, then a V8 Camaro will be the LEAST of GM's worries. You might as well kiss our auto industry goodbye and I'm sure Congress and which ever of the three stooges that gets the presidency knows that.

Hell, if CO2 regs are passed, I would BET that they are passed to finally put a bullet in the head of Detroit once and for all.

Here's a rumor:

I predict that if PCS doesn't stop blatantly harassing certain members of this board (Since it's been warned once) it'll be banned once and for all. Doesn't mean that will come true, although it might be what I desire. Same goes for your rumors and desires.

Edited March 22, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

Time to fight tooth and nail against the BS.

If all of that dark future comes to pass, then it really is all over and new cars will be of no more value to me.

There are other ways to deal with this than caving in to the crap.

[ehaase]

I predict that if PCS doesn't stop blatantly harassing certain members of this board (Since it's been warned once) it'll be banned once and for all. Doesn't mean that will come true, although it might be what I desire. Same goes for your rumors and desires.

With all due respect, I hope PCS stays here for years to come. I make it a point to read all of his posts, as well as those of thegriffon and Toyota.vs.GM.

[Oracle of Delphi]

With all due respect, I hope PCS stays here for years to come. I make it a point to read all of his posts, as well as those of thegriffon and Toyota.vs.GM.

Not to worry, I'm not going anywhere, unless I'm on a work trip for Mr. Burns. :AH-HA_wink:

[thegriffon]

How about a 5-year stint at Colmotores in Bogota?

[Oracle of Delphi]

How about a 5-year stint at Colmotores in Bogota?

Been there, done that. I was in Ecuador for 2 years which was under GM Colmotores, and I really did not want to leave when it was time to go. However both time and I have changed, now I go wherever I'm needed, sort of like a GM Angel of Mercy :AH-HA_wink: . I will soon be back in OZ, maybe if I have time I will take a trip to Tasmania too.

[smk4565]

third, they're positioning the Camaro to compete with BMW as well as the Mustang so as to negate the need for a GTO coupe

Lets face it; the Camaro will NEVER be what the Mustang is. So why not try to position the car (with it's more potent/expensive platform) a bit up from the Mustang to attract MORE buyers.

So the Camaro will compete with BMW, but will never live up to the Mustang that bases around $18,000 and is fleeted to Hertz? I do hope the Camaro is never fleeted off to Hertz, Alamo, or Enterprise like the Ford is.

Nothing from Chevy is competing with BMW, BMW is a different market, different buyer, maybe a Corvette and Z4 get cross shopped a little, but that's it. The Mustang may have a lot of history, but it isn't that great of a car.

I would guess the Camaro has the turbo 4 as the base engine and a DI V6 optional. They'll probably do the standard GM trick of waiting 6-8 months after launch before they offer an SS model, and the SS will have the 6.2 liter V8 from the G8 GXP with 402 hp.

[hyperv6]

Cafe is just the 1st punch of the 1, 2, 3 punches. Punch two will start with CO2 regulations being adopted by Congress and signed by the new President. Speaking of the new President (punch #3), whomever becomes the next president, that president will impose even more restrictions on US Auto Manufacturers. Each candidate has said as much.

Rumors are that GM will increase the cost of V8's on the Camaro so high, that virtually no one picks that option. How long after that until GM doesn't offer a V8 at all on the Camaro, stating it's not cost effective to do so, since no one orders it. GM can then claim it didn't kill the V8, the North American consumers did.

First off when did someone in politics kept a promise.... The 3 cats we have running now are going to go 360 on 90% of what they are saying. We already had one for 2 days say he was not in a Church service and now he says he was. They will do what is in the best interest of them to stablize the economy or what ever lobbiest is paying. So the truth is no one know what they are going to do as everything changes after the oath.

Your Boss seems to think it will be in favore of the auto companies if the economy is still down.

As for the V8. It is not going to disappear. It may be more limited in availablility and size but as long as they are in trucks they will be in some cars.

Even if we do lose them in cars like the Camaro it is not a big issue as the new 3.6 V6 I have stated was going to be the SBC of the future long before the CAFE was passed. The companied have been investing into the V6 as they knew this is where they were going before any laws were passed.

As for the V6. Most cars are just fine with 230-350 HP for the average diver there is no need for more. As for the enthusiast they can hop them up as we have since the 40's. THis is the end of the world part III.

We will get through this just as we have with many other sky is falling deals.

If we have to we can put stronger motors in our Volts!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

With all due respect, I hope PCS stays here for years to come. I make it a point to read all of his posts, as well as those of thegriffon and Toyota.vs.GM.

I agree, and I fought for PCS to stay last time.

However I am tired of his constant nagging and and harassment of certain individuals here. And it's purely selfish on my part; I'm just tired of reading threads of bull$h! bickering about personal purchases and other things NOT related to GM. It's the same thing in every thread; PCS posts skewed news, certain members of the board speak out against it and then it's an annoying 3 page war with the occasional PCS suck up stepping in to try and find middle ground. It's time for someone to take a nice cup of STFU and all I can say is that it's a good thing I'm no longer an admin here, because I'd make PCS eat his words.

Oh wait, I thought GME had deemed it necessary for him to stop posting here last time... Gues that was like 65% of the stuff he posts here.

Edited March 23, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So the Camaro will compete with BMW, but will never live up to the Mustang that bases around $18,000 and is fleeted to Hertz? I do hope the Camaro is never fleeted off to Hertz, Alamo, or Enterprise like the Ford is.

No.

The Camaro BRAND will never sell as easy as the Mustang BRAND.

Nothing from Chevy is competing with BMW, BMW is a different market, different buyer, maybe a Corvette and Z4 get cross shopped a little, but that's it. The Mustang may have a lot of history, but it isn't that great of a car.

The G8 competes with BMW, why couldn't the Camaro with the same basic platform and powertrain? Especially if GM really invests in marketing the car correctly. Will the Camaro steal a lot of volume from BMW? Probably not, but I'm sure it can be on the same radar.

[z28luvr01]

I think the multi-pronged approach that GM could take with the Camaro is actually very beneficial to GM. Obviously it'll be compared to the Mustang, because that always was and always will be its biggest traditional rival. But given the fact that so far Zeta seems to be the cat's meow of volume RWD platfoms, there really is no limit as to where GM can push the Camaro. I see this car destroying the Infiniti G coupe, the current poor man's 3 series coupe that finds favor with every college graduate that gets their first decent-paying full-time job. The key for GM is to not skimp on the non-V8 models - a base model with no options checked off should be as satisfying a drive as any Z/28 or SS. If they give the I4 and V6 models soft suspension, tiny brakes, and sloppy steering, it wil be a death sentence for the car.

[ehaase]

As for the V8. It is not going to disappear. It may be more limited in availablility and size but as long as they are in trucks they will be in some cars.

I think that V8's will only be available in the Corvette and very expensive Cadillacs and maybe Buicks. I think that the market for full size SUV's and pickups will shrink dramatically and most will be powered with V6 and V8 diesels.

My prediction is that V8's will be replaced by turbo V6's and eventually hybrid V6's and large displacement turbo 4's combined with hybrids. A 2.0L DI turbo like the Solstice would be very powerful if combined with electric assist and very fuel efficient.

I think that current V6's will be replaced with turbo DI 4's and eventually turbo small displacement 4's combined with hybrids. A 1.6L turbo with a hybrid would probably be almost as powerful as the 3.6.

I think that the current large displacement 4 cylinders will be replaced with turbo small displacement 4's.

Unless wages go up, I think most buyers will be forced into B and C class cars or will just keep cars much longer because all of this technology is expensive.

[-Camaro-]

I think that V8's will only be available in the Corvette and very expensive Cadillacs and maybe Buicks. I think that the market for full size SUV's and pickups will shrink dramatically and most will be powered with V6 and V8 diesels.

My prediction is that V8's will be replaced by turbo V6's and eventually hybrid V6's and large displacement turbo 4's combined with hybrids. A 2.0L DI turbo like the Solstice would be very powerful if combined with electric assist and very fuel efficient.

I think that current V6's will be replaced with turbo DI 4's and eventually turbo small displacement 4's combined with hybrids. A 1.6L turbo with a hybrid would probably be almost as powerful as the 3.6.

I think that the current large displacement 4 cylinders will be replaced with turbo small displacement 4's.

Unless wages go up, I think most buyers will be forced into B and C class cars or will just keep cars much longer because all of this technology is expensive.

Yikes, GM would be stupid to power most SUVs and pickups with diesels. I don't care if they get a little better efficiency, the cost of diesel is 35-50 cents more than premium in some places. That's the reason my dad got rid of his pick up.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I agree, and I fought for PCS to stay last time.

However I am tired of his constant nagging and and harassment of certain individuals here. And it's purely selfish on my part; I'm just tired of reading threads of bull$h! bickering about personal purchases and other things NOT related to GM. It's the same thing in every thread; PCS posts skewed news, certain members of the board speak out against it and then it's an annoying 3 page war with the occasional PCS suck up stepping in to try and find middle ground. It's time for someone to take a nice cup of STFU and all I can say is that it's a good thing I'm no longer an admin here, because I'd make PCS eat his words.

Oh wait, I thought GME had deemed it necessary for him to stop posting here last time... Gues that was like 65% of the stuff he posts here.

Have you been taking your meds?

[Satty]

Banning people because you dont like what they have to say. Classy. Sounds like something Josh would have done.

[Camino LS6]

No one is being banned, or is in any danger of being banned.

Unless, of course, people keep bringing this BS up - then I might be in the mood to give someone a vacation for a while.

Only a handful of people have ever been banned from this site.

That's the truth - deal with it.

Yeah, BS talk like this puts me in a bad mood.

[hyperv6]

I think that V8's will only be available in the Corvette and very expensive Cadillacs and maybe Buicks. I think that the market for full size SUV's and pickups will shrink dramatically and most will be powered with V6 and V8 diesels.

My prediction is that V8's will be replaced by turbo V6's and eventually hybrid V6's and large displacement turbo 4's combined with hybrids. A 2.0L DI turbo like the Solstice would be very powerful if combined with electric assist and very fuel efficient.

I think that current V6's will be replaced with turbo DI 4's and eventually turbo small displacement 4's combined with hybrids. A 1.6L turbo with a hybrid would probably be almost as powerful as the 3.6.

I think that the current large displacement 4 cylinders will be replaced with turbo small displacement 4's.

Unless wages go up, I think most buyers will be forced into B and C class cars or will just keep cars much longer because all of this technology is expensive.

Most cars will be V6 and 4 cylinders. The V6 engines will see two turbos in larger applications.

Turbos' for everyone but base cars.

Trucks, 1/2 tons will see Turbo V6 engines offered and Larger trucks will see V8 and even V8 Turbos in pulling packages.

THe V8 for sure will be seen in some Cadillacs and the Vette.

Prices will climb as Lutz already has stated this. Tech and lighter weight materials will drive the cost.

Car will grow smaller but not as small as many expect. We will all not be in Aveo sized cars.

I would not be suprised to see 2 and 3 cylinder turbo engines for the smallest cars.

Hybrid technology will be cramped where ever it will fit and do any good.

If the Volt works out it also can change what will happen as it will help off set much of the other cars if it's tech nology can be applied to more vehicles.

But we should do as GM is wait till they get all the ground rules set as by the time they are done it could be a lot different.

If the oil market bottom falls out and priced get back to $70 as some are expecting it will no longer be a hot button with the public at large. I think this is just going to we a roller coaster ride for a while on prices unless Iran decides to shoot a few missles at Jeruselm.

[Camino LS6]

Most cars will be V6 and 4 cylinders. The V6 engines will see two turbos in larger applications.

Turbos' for everyone but base cars.

Trucks, 1/2 tons will see Turbo V6 engines offered and Larger trucks will see V8 and even V8 Turbos in pulling packages.

THe V8 for sure will be seen in some Cadillacs and the Vette.

Prices will climb as Lutz already has stated this. Tech and lighter weight materials will drive the cost.

Car will grow smaller but not as small as many expect. We will all not be in Aveo sized cars.

I would not be suprised to see 2 and 3 cylinder turbo engines for the smallest cars.

Hybrid technology will be cramped where ever it will fit and do any good.

If the Volt works out it also can change what will happen as it will help off set much of the other cars if it's tech nology can be applied to more vehicles.

But we should do as GM is wait till they get all the ground rules set as by the time they are done it could be a lot different.

If the oil market bottom falls out and priced get back to $70 as some are expecting it will no longer be a hot button with the public at large. I think this is just going to we a roller coaster ride for a while on prices unless Iran decides to shoot a few missles at Jeruselm.

Even this outlook is bleak, I'm not interested in Caddys and Buicks (why a V8 for Buick anyway?). If Chevy and Pontiac no longer offer V8 cars, I'm done with new cars.

[hyperv6]

No one is being banned, or is in any danger of being banned.

Unless, of course, people keep bringing this BS up - then I might be in the mood to give someone a vacation for a while.

Only a handful of people have ever been banned from this site.

That's the truth - deal with it.

Yeah, BS talk like this puts me in a bad mood.

No banning unless they are doing harm to others or the web site. We have had worse ego's here in the past. At least the imature ones are easier to ignore.

If someone has something proper to state read it.

If it is something stupid or not relivent, ignore it as it will go away. No response to stupid or provoking statments speak louder than anything you could post as a reply. Attention only feeds the areas in their life were they lack something.

If you ignore a fool he is neutralized effectively. The lack of attention is like Kryptonite.

Live Smart as Life to Short to Play Up to Fools.

[Camino LS6]

Just had to let that one rant out - the "banning" talk has gotten on my nerves.

Its just a general message, not a response to anyone in particular.

[hyperv6]

Even this outlook is bleak, I'm not interested in Caddys and Buicks (why a V8 for Buick anyway?). If Chevy and Pontiac no longer offer V8 cars, I'm done with new cars.

I know you and I don't want take this wrong. But you need to let go of the mental block thought that it has to be a V8.

The V6 with todays technology is not the 3.8 or 2.8 of 1980.

Future V6's will be as powerful or even more so than your FireHawk ever dreamed of being. Most people driving the nerw CTS with the DI engine would never know they only had 6 cylinders.

Some of the best engines in history only had 6 cylinders. We had them from Offy, Benz, BMW, Ferrari, Porsche and more that all were great engines and performed very well compared to V8 engines of their time. Just look at how many years the Indy 500s Was won by a 4 or 6 cylinder engine when the rules were open. Even the Buick V6 was fast.

I too was once where I would not give up my V8 till my hands were cold. But I have sampled some great engines from many MFG and I have learned that many of them can easily provide the power and performance I need to enjoy the drive. My 3.8 SC would dust my BBC Sprint and get 2 and a half times the milage.

I am not a big Porsche fan but I have a few thousand miles on a 911 Carrera and can say that is a 6 cylinder that ranks with the best engines ever.

Jag and Ferrari even with their V12 engines most were small in size. Even todays V10 F1 engines are small but provide great power and for what they do decent milage. I think you will still get some smaller displacement V8 engines but you need to believe that a V6 is not the end of the world anymore.

As for sound most cars are so quiet now you can't get the sound like you used to in a 64 GTO. Drive by noise sounds even kill off the better tires we want because the tread makes too much noise.

Power was not going to get much higher than it was anyway as the safety groups and Insurance companies I am sure were going to crack down on it anyway.

The only thing I can not go for is FWD. It may be improved and is better than it has ever been. But there is just no way it will ever be better or feel better than a RWD. I just hate it if you get wheel spin in a turn you lose your steering. I should not have to rely on electronic aids to make my car drive correctly.

I know how you feel as I once was there but I have learned there are more than one acceptable way to make enjoyable power.

[SuperSport623]

theres a certain thing about V8's.... you may not understand, but its not the power thing to me... i love the power, but its also the sound (you'll NEVER make the same sound out of a different arraingement) the rumble, the unevenness... i love a v8... and the only way id go anything less is a very few Turbo 6 Buicks/GMC's

[Camino LS6]

It's the sound and the fury, and above all the torque.

And I'm old enough that I will never have to give it up - I'll be able to keep a V8 going until I'm dead, and I intend to do just that.

Perhaps a lesser engine will come along someday in a package that impresses me, but I seriously doubt it. Small engines and small cars are not for me.

Besides, I love old cars so it isn't a huge sacrifice for me to give up the little stuff that's coming.

In about 7 years, I'll have to buy a new work truck - but I think I'm safe there.

[ehaase]

A V6 will never have the sound and feel of a V8 for me. But I don't have the mechanical skills to keep a car running reliably more than 150,000 miles and I don't have the income to buy a Cadillac or Corvette V8, so I am resigned to the fact that my current car will be my last V8 and I will be forced into a 4 cylinder C or CD class car when my current car needs to be replaced in 6 to 9 years.

[SuperSport623]

A V6 will never have the sound and feel of a V8 for me. But I don't have the mechanical skills to keep a car running reliably more than 150,000 miles and I don't have the income to buy a Cadillac or Corvette V8, so I am resigned to the fact that my current car will be my last V8 and I will be forced into a 4 cylinder C or CD class car when my current car needs to be replaced in 6 to 9 years.

thats why im trying to learn more and more about how to rebuild small block Chevy's... because the parts and materials will be around forever... trust me... i will be running v8's till the day they put me in the ground

[Nick]

thats why im trying to learn more and more about how to rebuild small block Chevy's... because the parts and materials will be around forever... trust me... i will be running v8's till the day they put me in the ground

I'm very grateful I grew up around the muscle of yesteryear (in the form of family hot rods, old school muscle, and v-drive speedboats.)

Being thankful for the LSx series of engines, and I can only hope its legacy continues on along with GM's extensive line of crate engines.

With the exception of some Italian engines, and possibly a Bavarian I6, I can honestly say I will never stray far from a V8. Nothing can compare, and fuel, regardless the cost, will never dictate my driving habits.

[smk4565]

No.

The Camaro BRAND will never sell as easy as the Mustang BRAND.

The G8 competes with BMW, why couldn't the Camaro with the same basic platform and powertrain? Especially if GM really invests in marketing the car correctly. Will the Camaro steal a lot of volume from BMW? Probably not, but I'm sure it can be on the same radar.

The Camaro probably won't base under $20,000 like the Mustang or get the fleet sales the Mustang gets. The Mustang has a longer more consistent history, so that helps it. The Camaro will likely be a better car, retail sales will probably be close.

What BMW model does the G8 compete with? It is 1 inch shorter than a 7-series, but priced below a 1-series. The Malibu competes with the DTS more so than the G8 competes with BMW. The G8 is not a luxury car, it doesn't have the equipment a BMW has.

[smk4565]

I'm not even sure Cadillac will offer many V8s in the future, without a DOHC one, they will never match the Germans or Lexus in refinement, so they'll have to stay under the $50,000 price range aside from a car like the CTS-V. If the DTS replacement is 204 inches long like rumors suggest, it will appeal to older people like the Lucerne, DTS, Town Car do now. Older folks don't care much about speed, so a V6 will satisfy those buyers. (although my grandfather is 84 and bought a Grand Marquis last year because he likes big old American cars with V8s)

Buick doesn't need a V8, old folks buy them and the 300 hp can be had from a V6, and that just as much power that's in the Buick Supers now. Buick's top selling engine is still a 197-200 hp V6, 300 is way more power than any Buick buyer will need.

If GM is really worried about fuel economy, they should start cutting the weight of their cars. The Vue went up 400 lbs, the CTS went up about 200 lbs. The Lambdas are 400 pounds more than the CX-9 or SRX, the Solstice is heavier than the Miata, etc.