C&G @ NYIAS: Saab

[z28luvr01]

Saab has made quite a showing at the new York Auto Show this year, showing the 9-x and 9-4x concepts in Noth America for the first time while debuting the "Pure Biopower" clothing line. More on those items later. Before dinner at The Park restaurant I had the opportunity to have a nice concersation with Jan0Willen Vester, Saab USA Brand Manager. Being someone who's grown up lusting after tire-melting Chevys and Pontiac, I never had much insight into the Saab culture, so my conversation with Mr. Vester served as quite the eye opener. Here are some of thekey points:

• GM basically kept a hands-off approach with Saab from the time it purchased 50% of Saab in 1990 until the time they bought the rest of it in 2000. Starting in 2000, GM changed its strategy and decided to invigorate Saab with some help from the worldwide GM parts bin.
• GM knew that Saab's lineup at the time needed serious help for the brand to stay alive, but at the time it didn't quite have the resources to create from-the-ground-up Saabs in burgeoning market segments. Enter the 9-2x and 9-7x. Mr. vester and the rest of Saab knew they couldn't pull the wool over anyone's eyes with these, that noone would see them as anything but rebadges of other vehicles. They did, however, view them as adequate "bridge vehicles" that would "keep the lights on" while GM went to work on cars designed from scratch as Saabs.
• Despite the negative criticisms about the 9-2x and 9-7x, they were a boon to Saab as they were very profitable despite modest sales compared to their GM siblings.
• Mr. Vester's personal fleet includes a classic Saab 900, an older 9-5, and a recently purchased CPO 9-5 SportCombi. When I asked him about maintaining the older Saas, he informed me a bit of the Scandinavian attidude that is put into every Saab. Scandinavians prefer to be neutral (political dand otherwise) and do not prefer outside assistance. Saab has built this principle into both their military aircraft and their civilian vehicles from day one. Saabs are designed to be safe and durable. With attention to periodic maintenance, a Saab will last several hundred thousand miles, and there are million mile Saabs out there.

After dinner I took a short walk to the IAC Building, site of the Saab party featuring the North American debuts of the 9-4x and 9-x as well as the debut of the Saab Pure Biopower clothing line. After seeing these cars in person, I see a bright future for Saab. They may never sell like Chevy, but they don't have to. At long last, Saab is getting a lineup of visually exciting vehicles. The 9-x (the concep version of the 9-1x) clearly has the Mini in its crosshairs. This has "fun little car" written all over it. The 9-4x, while less appealing to me personally, is what a Saab SUV should be. Shortly after the canvases were pulled off the 9-x and 9-4x, models walked around the stage wearing Pure BioPower clothing. This new line of clothing is an extension of Saab's commitment to the environment. Each article of clothing is made using materials and manufacturing processes that serve no harm to the environment.

Pics will probably come later, as I have one more writeup to do, with less than three hours before I have to start getting ready to go back to NYC.

[Oracle of Delphi]

One of the next generation Saab 9 3's may very well be my next personal car.

[enzl]

I might believe the 9-7X is profitable, but the 9-2X program...I have serious doubts as to the truth of that claim.

As for allowing Saab the rope to hang itself with, I again find it hard to believe that GM would just throw money at Saab as it lost money for 10 years of partial ownership--then deciding to purchase the money pit! GM either knew what was going on and thought they could correct it OR they made a really bad decision---or both.

These are PR pieces, no? Lets be honest...can we admit that only softballs were tossed at any of these get-togethers? The 2 issues above are alone enough evidence...

[smk4565]

The money they lose on Saab every year would be better spent on Cadillac.

[Dsuupr]

Saab brings in a different kind of customer to GM. One they would have no connection with if they didn't have Saab. Recent reports show great potential for Saab in the coming years. Maybe it wasn't the best thing to have in the 90s, but from here forward I think they could get alot out of Saab.

[lanky9172]

I agree with what has been said regarding Saab proving to be a plus for GM in the future instead of a minus. Like it or not, even if Cadillac rocks the casba, you still need a Euro contender to get in the ring with the other Euro corps. Saab is to do just that and with a little tweaking, I think that it could do well.

Now my thoughts on Saab are that it should shoot for the same TYPE of customer as Subaru, ne the same price point. I think Saab can stay where it is price wise, but these two brands have LOTS of similarities, hence the General tapping Subaru to make an entry Saab. They both have turbos, they both have their niche markets, they both shoot for a more sporty and/or outdoorsy person, they're both known for making wagons. Now why Saab has basically ignored all wheel drive until this year is beyond me, but I think Saab needs to look to Subaru even more.

I think Saab needs to throw in MORE turbos and basically take the stance of Subaru and make AWD STANDARD. Couple that with Scandinavian environmental awareness, throw in a tent and you have GM's Subaru, but better. In all honesty I am a Subaru guy, but if Saab does a few of these things (like make a competitor to an Outback with AWD and a stick option) I am totally jumping ship and swimming over to the Saab vessel. I am a GM fan through and through, but they don't offer anything like an Outback...they could if they threw some more options that I feel should be standard onto a 9-3 or 9-5 though. Thoughts?

Edited March 19, 2008 by lanky9172

[The O.C.]

I might believe the 9-7X is profitable, but the 9-2X program...I have serious doubts as to the truth of that claim.

As for allowing Saab the rope to hang itself with, I again find it hard to believe that GM would just throw money at Saab as it lost money for 10 years of partial ownership--then deciding to purchase the money pit! GM either knew what was going on and thought they could correct it OR they made a really bad decision---or both.

These are PR pieces, no? Lets be honest...can we admit that only softballs were tossed at any of these get-togethers? The 2 issues above are alone enough evidence...

True.....and notice the bean-counter mentality......the idea of the "profitability" of teh 9-7x and 9-2x......while TOTALLY ignoring the potential, and very real, damage those two vehicles did to SAAB's brand image.....

[The O.C.]

Saab brings in a different kind of customer to GM. One they would have no connection with if they didn't have Saab. Recent reports show great potential for Saab in the coming years. Maybe it wasn't the best thing to have in the 90s, but from here forward I think they could get alot out of Saab.

How many cars does SAAB sell here in this country every year? First of all.....not many.....and at that....how many of those customers are TRULY new to GM...?

SAAB is a storied brand that GM has totally squandered, IMHO. The 9-3 is the only decent car they offer right now.....and using the word "decent" is being kind. While it's not a bad car by any means, it's certainly not one of the most competitive in it's segment. But while I agree the recent refresh is VERY attractive, it just doesn't seem to scream "SAAB" like the 99, squarish 900, or even the first 900 under GM's reign (remember the 900/9-3 Viggen?)

[enzl]

How many cars does SAAB sell here in this country every year? First of all.....not many.....and at that....how many of those customers are TRULY new to GM...?

SAAB is a storied brand that GM has totally squandered, IMHO. The 9-3 is the only decent car they offer right now.....and using the word "decent" is being kind. While it's not a bad car by any means, it's certainly not one of the most competitive in it's segment. But while I agree the recent refresh is VERY attractive, it just doesn't seem to scream "SAAB" like the 99, squarish 900, or even the first 900 under GM's reign (remember the 900/9-3 Viggen?)

I find it even more ironic that the iconic Saab hatchback doesn't exist, yet the market is running to CUV's...the damage done to this brand, both here and abroad, has been immeasurable. The fact that they missed the AWD trend, the CUV trend and are finally getting it together 10 years late seems like little cause for celebration.

For every dollar spent going forward, it's stolen from divisions that have sold or will sell 2-20X as many vehicles---Saab is a sinkhole. Period.

You can wish that things were different or optimistically believe things will get better--I just see no historical evidence that GM knew or knows what its doing with this brand.

[smk4565]

Saab sold less than 35,000 vehicles in the US in 2007, and the US is it's biggest market. Worldwide sales are under 100,000. GM sells 9.4 million cars a year, why do they keep wasting money on something that is 1% of their sales.

GM doesn't need a Euro brand to sell cars in the US, or even in Europe. Toyota and BMW didn't buy an American brand to survive in the USA, and they did alright.

[ketch]

Saab sold less than 35,000 vehicles in the US in 2007, and the US is it's biggest market. Worldwide sales are under 100,000. GM sells 9.4 million cars a year, why do they keep wasting money on something that is 1% of their sales.

GM doesn't need a Euro brand to sell cars in the US, or even in Europe. Toyota and BMW didn't buy an American brand to survive in the USA, and they did alright.

yet Zarella killed off Olds with twice the sales. The truth hurts I know.

[turbo200]

Saab is a very distinctive entity within GM. They have a design asthetic for smooth contours, subtle movements, timeless features, simplicity, minimalist design. They definitely appeal to a buyer most GM cars do not, I'd say 95% of the buyers of GM cars are different from Saab buyers. I could say Tahoe and Suburban probably along with some GMC pacakges draw the same kind of buyers. These are upscale buyers, who want something classy, classic, and enduring. The 9-3 is still one of the best looking designs in GM's catalog, imo. I still turn my head when I see an Aero of the pre-refresh. The refresh exemplifies how much Saab is capable of with so little resources, and is already one of the best looking sedans in its class, to me. I would rock it.

They need a more focused theme. Going after AWD buyers/Subaru type vehicles is one path they could take. I think the Aero X exemplifies Saab for me: cool, exclusive, unique, some quirks and sacrifices involved in owning them, performance-minded. They have a design language that is distinct and is very good.

Around Beverly Hills you see plenty of retail owned Saabs, not as many CTSs. I just saw 4 new 9-3s in the past few days, only one new CTS. The new CTS is doing really poorly in LA. It says something, that's for sure.

[z28luvr01]

I wish people would stop giving Saab a hard time. Saab's predicment was worsened by GM initially, who did absolutely nothing for Saab for the first ten years of ownership. Saab was a huge sinkhole and was alowed to remain so. Now, it's less of a sinkhole. Saab's strategy is pretty apparent to me - they intend to appeal to higher class, art appreciating, iMac buying, trendy, fashionable people who care about the environment. Personally, I felt the clothing line is a gimmick, but that could be because I'm the polar opposite of that type of person, with the exception that I try to be as environmentally conscious as I can. Saab's biggest roadblock to success now is that it's one of the best kept secrets in the industry. Ask anyone who bought a VW, Audi, or Volvo if they even considered Saab. Everything turbo said about Saab is true, and on top of that, they're using known reliable GM technology in them. Yet, they're hardly on anyone's radar. GM really needs to get the word out about the brand - the new Saabs are phenomenal looking. My seat time in the 9-3 vert ilicited some impure thoughts inside my head. If they follow through wth the whole BioPower thing (engines designed from the ground up on ethanol), that would be a huge shot in the arm for GMs image as a green company. Simply put, people need to be informed that Saab is out there. They deserve a fair look.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Saab isn't going anywhere, Mr. Burns loves it too much. So much so that even der Bö®gÉr loves this brand now. In 2010 the Saab 9 3 is on my shopping list now, along with the CTS and Insignia.

[smk4565]

Saabs aren't a high end car, they are priced below Acura for the most part. My mom had a 2002 9-5 Aero that was loaded, nice car, handled well, but it was a maintenance nightmare, and was towed 4 times, one of which was 1 day after a $1000+ repair bill. The dealership service was horrible (it was a Pontiac-GMC-Saab). Not to mention massive depreciation, it was $42,000 MSRP new, and she sold if for $8000 when it was not even 5 years old. The Audi dealer only offered $5000 for a trade in, they wanted no part of it, because they knew it would be hard to sell it.

We of course had several 9-3 rentals since the 9-5 was in the shop so much, the 9-3 is a garbage car. The turbo 4 is gutless, (the turbo V6 wasn't out then), the interior is cheap, too many buttons for the radio (its like el-cheapo iDrive) ride, handling and steering were average, it handled much worse than the 9-5. No discount is big enough to get me to consider a 9-3.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Saab isn't going anywhere, Mr. Burns loves it too much. So much so that even der Bö®gÉr loves this brand now. In 2010 the Saab 9 3 is on my shopping list now, along with the CTS and Insignia.

Well,

We always knew the Germans were easily convinced to follow.

Looks as if the Germans involved in GME are no different.

:AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well,

We always knew the Germans were easily convinced to follow.

Looks as if the Germans involved in GME are no different.

:AH-HA_wink:

I'll just consider the source. :AH-HA_wink:

[regfootball]

every year when i auto show it i keep coming back to how nice the little 9-3 is. it's pricey though and too small for me.

the lack of a competitive 9-5 is what has killed saab the most.

to me, saab should be gunning for a slot between vw and acura and out euroing VW. cars that are better than VW, more interesting than acura crap, and having scandinavian flavor. it does not need to be wierd. it does need to be distinctive and the powertrains need to be current.

saab could double their US volume just trying to crack part of VW's sales....if they had a 9-3 and 9-5 that were packaged in a way to take away sales from high end jettas and the passat line.

so if the 9-2 and 9-7 made money it does reinforce rebadging behavior, which is unfortunate.

i would be excited about the 9-4 but the styling is too blah.

truth be told, had saab come out with a competitive SUV on time like all the other euros they would not be in the mess they are either. don't kid yourselves, the luxo marques were not kept afloat by sedans and small cars either, for the longest time. volvo kept the lights on as much by the xc90 and xc70 as anything. look at audi and all road. that tanked and they even had to bring the requisite porker (Q7) over as well.

saab should take the srx and remake it in its image as the new 9-7. turbo v6, new body and interior.

saab needs an all new 9-3 and 9-5 now. and 9-1/2, 9-4, 9-7, aero.

Edited March 22, 2008 by regfootball

[enzl]

every year when i auto show it i keep coming back to how nice the little 9-3 is. it's pricey though and too small for me.

the lack of a competitive 9-5 is what has killed saab the most.

to me, saab should be gunning for a slot between vw and acura and out euroing VW. cars that are better than VW, more interesting than acura crap, and having scandinavian flavor. it does not need to be wierd. it does need to be distinctive and the powertrains need to be current.

saab could double their US volume just trying to crack part of VW's sales....if they had a 9-3 and 9-5 that were packaged in a way to take away sales from high end jettas and the passat line.

so if the 9-2 and 9-7 made money it does reinforce rebadging behavior, which is unfortunate.

i would be excited about the 9-4 but the styling is too blah.

truth be told, had saab come out with a competitive SUV on time like all the other euros they would not be in the mess they are either. don't kid yourselves, the luxo marques were not kept afloat by sedans and small cars either, for the longest time. volvo kept the lights on as much by the xc90 and xc70 as anything. look at audi and all road. that tanked and they even had to bring the requisite porker (Q7) over as well.

saab should take the srx and remake it in its image as the new 9-7. turbo v6, new body and interior.

saab needs an all new 9-3 and 9-5 now. and 9-1/2, 9-4, 9-7, aero.

Saab is the brand that slays me over at GM....

I've always thought they abandoned the hatch to quickly...and they should have echoed the Caddy strategy of pricing vehicles between other lux brands. A 3-series beating 9-3 at a 5-series size--with a sizeable discount built in. Same with the 9-5 having 7 series interior volume. FWD/AWD should have come to Saab concurrent with Volvo, at minimum.

The current line-up just makes me sad...but I promised I'd be more upbeat, so I'll end by repeating my huge soft spot for this brand.

[ZL-1]

The current line-up just makes me sad...but I promised I'd be more upbeat, so I'll end by repeating my huge soft spot for this brand.

I have a huge soft spot for Saab as well. I like the refresehed 9-3 and I wish a 5-door 9-3 hatch had been part of the plan.

Edited March 22, 2008 by ZL-1

[The O.C.]

Saab is the brand that slays me over at GM....

I've always thought they abandoned the hatch to quickly...and they should have echoed the Caddy strategy of pricing vehicles between other lux brands. A 3-series beating 9-3 at a 5-series size--with a sizeable discount built in. Same with the 9-5 having 7 series interior volume. FWD/AWD should have come to Saab concurrent with Volvo, at minimum.

The current line-up just makes me sad...but I promised I'd be more upbeat, so I'll end by repeating my huge soft spot for this brand.

Just look at Volvo's product lineup today compared to SAABs......it really goes to show how badly GM's influence has impacted the brand.

Volvo may not be the be-all, end-all......but look at the C30 (cute as a button), the C40/C50 and it's "floating console" dash and scandanavian interior design, which has now migrated to the S80 and the upcoming XC50, compare the XC70 to the (TrailBlazer) 9-7x......the new V70 wagon that's based off the S80......

[smk4565]

the lack of a competitive 9-5 is what has killed saab the most.

saab should take the srx and remake it in its image as the new 9-7. turbo v6, new body and interior.

saab needs an all new 9-3 and 9-5 now. and 9-1/2, 9-4, 9-7, aero.

Lack of a competitive 9-3 hasn't helped either.

The SRX chassis was considered for Saab years ago, but it was too expensive. They were going to do a Saab based on the Subaru B9 Tribeca, until the GM-Fuji/Subaru alliance fell apart.

Saab lost $428 million in 2006, where does the money for a new 9-3, 9-5, 9-4, etc come from? Every penny spend on Saab would be 5 times more beneficial if it was spend on Chevy or Cadillac.

[HarleyEarl]

I wish GM didn't pair Saturn and Saab, it brings down the cache factor for Saab.

[ZL-1]

I wish GM didn't pair Saturn and Saab, it brings down the cache factor for Saab.

IIRC, Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer and Saab will be paired in the UK. I think it would be interesting to have those two different flavours paired, even if separate showrooms are a must (consolidation can be done in repair shops and dealer corporate functions while keeping separate showroom locations). On the other hand, I understand the rationale behind pairing Saturn/Saab in the US: it's the Euro-flavoured equivalent of BPG, with Saab being kind of a Euro Buick: the upscale brand below King Cadillac.

Edited March 22, 2008 by ZL-1

[ocnblu]

SAAB hasn't been worth two pinches of owl $h! since they quit making the old 900 hatches. It is indeed now a money pit, with paltry worldwide sales. They sell fewer cars worldwide than Pontiac sells in the US, yet the birdbrains at GM entertain thoughts of killing Pontiac. Bass ackwards priorities, clearly. Dumbass GME mindset, no effing clue about the US market and what is important.

[ZL-1]

SAAB hasn't been worth two pinches of owl $h! since they quit making the old 900 hatches. It is indeed now a money pit, with paltry worldwide sales. They sell fewer cars worldwide than Pontiac sells in the US, yet the birdbrains at GM entertain thoughts of killing Pontiac. Bass ackwards priorities, clearly. Dumbass GME mindset, no effing clue about the US market and what is important.

Have you asked yourself 'what if Saab can be made proftable at 150K Worldwide sales (growing where demand is growing) and Pontiac cannot be made profitable at 250K US/NA (mature markets going sideways) sales'? I'm not saying that is the answer, but it could be one possible answer to invest in Saab instead of Pontiac. One that would make economic/business sense: you're faced with 2 money losing brands, you take a look at where each brand can go in terms of profit and global reach, and you make decisions based on that.

I also think people should stop this damn whining re GME: It's the GM board making big decisions, not Mr. Lutz, not Mr. CPF, not Mr. PCS, and not even Mr. Wagoner alone that make these decisions.

Edited March 22, 2008 by ZL-1

[ocnblu]

The US is SAAB's biggest single market, according to published reports. Where is SAAB being sold? The US and Western Europe? "Sideways" markets? Where the USA is concerned, SAAB appears to be another money pit, as Saturn has been and continues to be. And it is your friend PCS who keeps saying "GM = GME". GME's growing influence in the USA can be seen at Saturn, with little positive results v. money spent. I predict a similar result out of SAAB.

[Cory Wolfe]

Those who dislike Saab need to see the light. I love Pontiac, but come on, there's no reason for this bickering over Saab. I agree with Z.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Montgomery Burns und Waylon Smithers, Jr. vote for Saab! We love it.

[ZL-1]

The US is SAAB's biggest single market, according to published reports. Where is SAAB being sold? The US and Western Europe? "Sideways" markets? Where the USA is concerned, SAAB appears to be another money pit, as Saturn has been and continues to be. And it is your friend PCS who keeps saying "GM = GME". GME's growing influence in the USA can be seen at Saturn, with little positive results v. money spent. I predict a similar result out of SAAB.

Saab website: you can see a list of countries there. I think the reasoning here is that while volume is low, the foot is through the door in all those countries so it's probably better value-wise to use that to increase global sales (probably pair Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer with Saab to increase awareness of the American brands wherever the market supports them) than to invest in making Pontiac profitable again, especially when AFAIK Pontiac is sold in US/Canada/Mexico only.

GM is predicting that 80% of the industry volume growth will happen in emerging markets (read Russia, Central Asia, China, Latin America, Africa, Middle East) over the next 5 years, so that's where brand expansion and eventually capacity investment will be going. With such a disparity in growth rates mature markets like the US and Western Europe are going sideways.

As for the GM = GME, I'll let PCS explain/defend that whenever he feels like it. He's a big boy and he can explain/defend his remarks whenever he feels like doing so.

Edited March 22, 2008 by ZL-1

[Oracle of Delphi]

The US is SAAB's biggest single market, according to published reports. Where is SAAB being sold? The US and Western Europe? "Sideways" markets? Where the USA is concerned, SAAB appears to be another money pit, as Saturn has been and continues to be. And it is your friend PCS who keeps saying "GM = GME". GME's growing influence in the USA can be seen at Saturn, with little positive results v. money spent. I predict a similar result out of SAAB.

Simply put, Saab is a world brand, Pontiac is not. Pssst, hey blu come here, I want to whisper something in your ear. Whisper Saab is even sold in Australia! End of Whisper.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Simply put, Saab is a world brand, Pontiac is not. Pssst, hey blu come here, I want to whisper something in your ear. Whisper Saab is even sold in Australia! End of Whisper.

I'm sure all three owners are happy.

[z28luvr01]

Saab does have potential. As I said before Saab's predicament is GM's own doing. More effort should have been made to bring them into the fold sooner, instead of letting them operate independently using the methods that got it so far in the red in the first place. Now, it seems, GM has its arm fully around the brand and is willing to use it to its potential. By 2010 I think we'll see a different, much more competent Saab that should make inroads on VW/Audi and Volvo buyers. They do have new product in the pipeline that, given everything else that's coming out of GM lately, should be outstanding.

[smk4565]

Saab sales in Europe are declining as well as in the US. It is a money pit at this point, and GM doesn't have lots of extra money laying around.

Where it the potential in Saab? A dressed up Vue with a turbo engine? A 2010 9-3 on a 2003 chassis? A new 9-5 that may never even happen since they sold about 2,000 9-5s in the USA last year?

I kind of like Saab styling, I like the airplane theme stuff they do, the idea is good. But it's a money pit with bad sales. If they took the $3-4 billion wasted on Saab each year and gave every last penny to Cadillac, maybe Cadillac would be a global brand that could at least be #4 in the world, perhaps #3 if they really get it together.

[thegriffon]

I'm sure all three owners are happy.

Almost as many Saabs are sold in Australia as the US. Ok that's not so many.

[z28luvr01]

Saab sales in Europe are declining as well as in the US. It is a money pit at this point, and GM doesn't have lots of extra money laying around.

Where it the potential in Saab? A dressed up Vue with a turbo engine? A 2010 9-3 on a 2003 chassis? A new 9-5 that may never even happen since they sold about 2,000 9-5s in the USA last year?

The next 9-3 should be Epsilon II. The biggest part of the 9-5's problem is that it should've been replaced years ago, since it dates back to 1999. A new 9-3 that roughly keeps the size of the current car and a bordering-on-fullsized 9-5 would make nice replacements for the current cars. The 9-4x is a much better SUV for Saab than the 9-7x, 6.0L V8 and all. And I'm hoping the 9-1x doesn't lose too much from the 9-x concept, because that little car is hot in person and would make an interesting Mini alternative. Assuming this recipe comes to fruition, I think this could be the best Saab lineup in a long time, perhaps ever. The next thing GM has to do is flood the media with marketing for Saab. For all intents and purposes, Saab has no image and isn't even on the radar for many consumers. GM needs to recognize that and change it.

I kind of like Saab styling, I like the airplane theme stuff they do, the idea is good. But it's a money pit with bad sales. If they took the $3-4 billion wasted on Saab each year and gave every last penny to Cadillac, maybe Cadillac would be a global brand that could at least be #4 in the world, perhaps #3 if they really get it together.

Agreed on the styling and airplane theme they have going. Saab doesn't have to do a lot of sales to help GM - the tooling for them is largely paid for by the hundreds of thousands of Malibus, G6s, Auras, Vectras/Insignias, and (eventually) LaCrosses that sell across the globe. For as little as they sold, Saab did make a decent profit on the 9-7x and 9-2x. I could foresee pairing Saab with Cadilac or Hummer to help their increase their sales network (the closest dealer to me is 15 miles away, the second closest is across the Long Island Sound) while allowing the brand to remain focused on its mission rather than dilute itself further. Cadillac makes sense because it'll allow Caddy to stick to RWD and Saab FWD/AWD. Hummer makes sense because it allows Saab to stay out of trucks, which they should. Also, with the dollar conditions the way they are, it may make sense to build Saabs meant for the US here to keep the price point low.

[ocnblu]

My personal bottom line: I am unwilling to grow SAAB while simultaneously starving Pontiac. If Zeta is to be a shortlived platform, Pontiac must have an Alpha family, a truly unique Delta, and the Kappa cars in place to keep the brand fresh and viable.

[smk4565]

I could foresee pairing Saab with Cadilac or Hummer to help their increase their sales network (the closest dealer to me is 15 miles away, the second closest is across the Long Island Sound) while allowing the brand to remain focused on its mission rather than dilute itself further. Cadillac makes sense because it'll allow Caddy to stick to RWD and Saab FWD/AWD. Hummer makes sense because it allows Saab to stay out of trucks, which they should. Also, with the dollar conditions the way they are, it may make sense to build Saabs meant for the US here to keep the price point low.

Except most Saab owners (or perspective owners) find Hummers offensive, and they think Cadillacs are old geezer land barges, or are offended by the blinged out Escalade. My mom owned a Saab (after 16 years of Volvos) and is disgusted by Hummers and Escalades, if the Saab dealership wasn't by itself, but paired with Hummer, she would have never bought the car in the first place. It's been said on here how Saab appeals to the eco-friendly, protect the environment, Starbucks crowd. How can you push Saab as eco-friendly when it is parked next to an H2, the poster child for ruining the Earth.

Saabs are built in Germany now at the Opel plant. This has made many people in Europe consider Saab as just a dressed up Opel, and made it a less desirable brand.

Bottom line is Saab looses money, GM has lost over $4 billion dollars on this brand since 1990. Saab is loosing more money per year than Oldsmobile did and selling far fewer cars. There is no point in keeping them. It would make just as much sense to sell the CTS for $27,000 and lose money on every one they sell.

[Oracle of Delphi]

My personal bottom line: I am unwilling to grow SAAB while simultaneously starving Pontiac. If Zeta is to be a shortlived platform, Pontiac must have an Alpha family, a truly unique Delta, and the Kappa cars in place to keep the brand fresh and viable.

You're unwilling? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! CPF is and that's all that matters. Saab has potential worldwide where as Pontiac does not, it's not a world brand and never will be. As for an Alpha for Pontiac, the future looks grim, that platform is going to Cadillac and Chevrolet. I don't understand why you can't grasp that concept.

[ocnblu]

Stick it.

[REDO1GPGT]

As for an Alpha for Pontiac, the future looks grim, that platform is going to Cadillac and Chevrolet. I don't understand why you can't grasp that concept.

And it's a shame...

[z28luvr01]

Unless something changed that noone knows about, the current team at GM is fixated on rebuilding the company using the brands it has. GM can't stomach another Oldsmobile, and it would have several of those situations all over the world if it were to pare itself down to Chevy and Cadillac. Curiously, no mention is ever made of shutting down Opel or Vauxhall. AFAIK they're local to Europe, so if the intent is to make Chevy and Caddy the only global brands, they should be on the chopping block right alongside Holden and Pontiac.

Back to Saab: The best thing for GM to do is to invest in Saab and make it profitable. Noone in their right mind would buy it now anyway, except maybe the Chinese or the Russians. Saab does have appeal to certain demographics, ones who would probably not consider any othe GM brand. And that's another thing, the average consumer doesn't even know that Saab is a part of GM. I was having a conversation with someone about all the things I saw at the Saab party, and they said me, "Wait a minute...Saab is owned by GM? Get outta here."

[lanky9172]

Alright guys, here are my thoughts (not that they really matter since I rarely post on here); I don't think there is any reason why SAAB is losing money and I say that for one reason: Hyundai. Hyundai as I recall used to be considered REAL sh#t and now it has a decent rep. What did Hyundai do? They boosted their R&D and injected their product with good design. I feel that if Hyundai can be an automotive phoenix, then GM has no excuse for any loss leading divisions. And if it means that profits have to be slim to none to plow good money into R&D, then so be it