Todd Lassa: GM and Ford's rear-wheel-drive strategies

[wildcat]

Todd Lassa, in an editorial for Motor Trend, has given his opinion for GM and Ford's rear-wheel-drive strategies. He makes product suggestions for Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, and Chevrolet. See if you agree. For a direct link, click here.

[Sixty8panther]

I am soooooo sick of the "RWD means LESS interior space" stereotype.

There's only ONE FWD car that I have experienced that DOES not have a

driveshaft hump, XP's '67 Cadillac Eldorado has a completely FLAT floor.

Due to its BOF design this is possible, but today's pepsi-can unibody

$h!boxes NEED the driveshaft (exhaust) hump in the middle of the floor

to help strengthen the floorboards, and by extension torsial ridgidity.

So that's ONE car, that has been off the market since 1970, that has a

SLIGHT advantage in terms of interior space due to its FWD.

HOw about the other 471,278,506 modern FWD cars that have their

front wheels set SO damn far back in the wheelbase their wheel well is

actually EATING up 60% of the footwell?!

FWD cars suck in terms of packaging, but the dumb masses once again

just eat up the bull$h! misnomers like ice cream on a hot day.

[siegen]

I am soooooo sick of the "RWD means LESS interior space" stereotype.

There's only ONE FWD car that I have experienced that DOES not have a

driveshaft hump, XP's '67 Cadillac Eldorado has a completely FLAT floor.

Due to its BOF design this is possible, but today's pepsi-can unibody

$h!boxes NEED the driveshaft (exhaust) hump in the middle of the floor

to help strengthen the floorboards, and by extension torsial ridgidity.

So that's ONE car, that has been off the market since 1970, that has a

SLIGHT advantage in terms of interior space due to its FWD.

HOw about the other 471,278,506 modern FWD cars that have their

front wheels set SO damn far back in the wheelbase their wheel well is

actually EATING up 60% of the footwell?!

FWD cars suck in terms of packaging, but the dumb masses once again

just eat up the bull$h! misnomers like ice cream on a hot day.

Your speculation is worse than the very people who make blanket statements about RWD cars.

[Sixty8panther]

What part of my post was speculation??? Please do tell.

[siegen]

What part of my post was speculation??? Please do tell.

You assume FWD sucks in terms of packaging in the same way the "dumb masses" assume RWD sucks in terms of packaging. The truth of the matter is that there are poor packaging examples and good packaging examples for both layouts.

[turbo200]

concise and valid points. things that have already been discussed. best case scenario is GM sees more and more of these reports and thier hands are forced.

the argument is made in favor of zeta, noting the great engineering and overall great car G8 is. specifically, fuel mileage is barely less than Malibu, by only 1 mpg!! so hopefully the incomprehensibles at GM read this. and my own words as well.

zeta has full size room with a relatively smaller footprint [it's 4 inches shorter than Impala!!], great full-size segment fuel economy potentially a class leader in that regard, and it's a great car that offers so so much in the form of G8

as the G8 gains popularity, which hopefully will be extreme, we will see more of these kinds of articles pointing out the truth to GM.

Anyone notice by the time of Malibu's intro, plenty more reviewers had press cars to start the media bombardment? Does it cost money to get cars in the hands of reviewers? This is where the marketing budget needs to go for this car, it's a fabulous car that needs to receive the attention of at least as many reviewers as Malibu did upon intro.

For reference G8 gas mileage is at 15/24 for the V8. 17/26 is what the V6 Malibu gets compared to 17/25 for the G8 V6. Even V8 gas mileage is relatively good; precedence for this engine is to be able to get up to 30 mpg on highway stretches.

Edited March 17, 2008 by turbo200

[PurdueGuy]

The bump in the floor on most FWD cars is a passageway for the exhaust so it doesn't get ripped off the car, or require the car to sit an extra 6" off the ground. It's also far more subtle than a driveshaft hump.

[turbo200]

and with that, the G8's backseat was easily the most comfortable I've ever found in a GM car! no bias, just the truth.

[Northstar]

and with that, the G8's backseat was easily the most comfortable I've ever found in a GM car! no bias, just the truth.

Agreed, the G8 rear seat is phenomenal, best GM has to offer. Tons of space and comfortable.

[smk4565]

GM needs more rear drive stuff, they have tons of front wheel drive cars already. CAFE isn't an excuse, they can get the same mileage from rear drive, and they can make rear drive cars with light hybrids or diesels if they need to. Lassa is right about making cars under 195 inches long. Rear drive cars don't need to be 210 inches long and weigh 4300 pounds like a Town car. Size is what hurts mileage, not the drive wheels. Lassa is also right about Mercury being near death and Ford and Lincoln being too poor to come up with anything. I predict Mercury dies off, and Lincoln continues with it's dressed up Fords and adds the Mariner.

I don't like Lassa's Cadillac plan. If the DTS/STS replacement is 203+ inches long and $40,000-$50,000, that's a geezer-mobile. If the 3-series is the #1 seller in the segment, (both US and worldwide) and the C-class, A4 are a couple inches bigger, why would the Alpha Cadillac be smaller than a 3-series. It should be 180-182 inches long. I don't like his engine choices either, a high revving 4-banger for the Alpha and a Chevy small block V8 for the big car. I'd be fine with an updated version of the DI turbo 4 from the Solstice GXP as the base BTS engine, but they need a V6 also.

[regfootball]

Agreed, the G8 rear seat is phenomenal, best GM has to offer. Tons of space and comfortable.

MAGNUM, 300, VERY COMFY REAR SEATS. 120 inch wb tho

[buyacargetacheck]

Malibu's 17/26 isn't exactly class-leading. Accord V6 is 19/29 and Camry V6 is 19/28.

In terms of packaging (although not sportiness), a better comparison is Avalon 19/28 vs G8 V6 17/25.

Avalon has 268hp and 3495 pounds. G8 has 256hp and weighs 3885 pounds. From a power-to-weight ratio basis the Avalon actually seems sportier on paper while getting better gas mileage and offering a cushier ride. How ironic. The G8 is cheaper and has a bigger trunk though.

For reference G8 gas mileage is at 15/24 for the V8. 17/26 is what the V6 Malibu gets compared to 17/25 for the G8 V6. Even V8 gas mileage is relatively good; precedence for this engine is to be able to get up to 30 mpg on highway stretches.

[The O.C.]

Malibu's 17/26 isn't exactly class-leading. Accord V6 is 19/29 and Camry V6 is 19/28.

In terms of packaging (although not sportiness), a better comparison is Avalon 19/28 vs G8 V6 17/25.

Avalon has 268hp and 3495 pounds. G8 has 256hp and weighs 3885 pounds. From a power-to-weight ratio basis the Avalon actually seems sportier on paper while getting better gas mileage and offering a cushier ride. How ironic. The G8 is cheaper and has a bigger trunk though.

I'm tellin' you.....GM's weight problem with their cars is gonna bite them in the ass one day........just look at what it does to performance. Remember the recent sport/luxury sedan comparo in C&D....?

In order to match the go-power of the base-engine 328i sedan, you have to go all the way up to the 3.6L DI version of the CTS......

(That being said.....I don't think it's that much of a drivetrain issue either......meaning RWD versus FWD......)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So...

Basically, we get RWD cars for 10 more years, then all the fun stops?!?!?

How about GM and Ford puts their engineering hats on and engineer the automobile to a better future so that we can buy something more than a piece of $h! Aveo or Corsa circa 2020.

[smk4565]

They do need to solve the weight problem, it hurts acceleration, breaking, handling and gas mileage. It ranges from the Solstice and Cobalt, to the Vue to the Enclave.

The Malibu V6 mileage is so-so, it carries over into the bigger and heavier G8. Toyota's and Honda's V6 engines are pretty efficient, if the engine has 300-400 pounds less to pull, it is going to get better mileage. It would be nice to see a smaller V6 with DI that can make 250 hp but get better mileage than the 3.6.

[smk4565]

So...

Basically, we get RWD cars for 10 more years, then all the fun stops?!?!?

How about GM and Ford puts their engineering hats on and engineer the automobile to a better future so that we can buy something more than a piece of $h! Aveo or Corsa circa 2020.

The Silverado is rear drive and will still be around then. Otherwise, BMW and Mercedes will have rear wheel drive.

[turbo200]

Malibu's 17/26 isn't exactly class-leading. Accord V6 is 19/29 and Camry V6 is 19/28.

In terms of packaging (although not sportiness), a better comparison is Avalon 19/28 vs G8 V6 17/25.

Avalon has 268hp and 3495 pounds. G8 has 256hp and weighs 3885 pounds. From a power-to-weight ratio basis the Avalon actually seems sportier on paper while getting better gas mileage and offering a cushier ride. How ironic. The G8 is cheaper and has a bigger trunk though.

I wasn't making the point that G8 V6 or any GM V6 is class leading. For the G8, the mileage figure is great considering the fact that the major argument against RWD has been the fuel economy issue, and G8 wholly disproves this. I'm not saying GM's cars aren't heavy either. We work with what we have.

I'd be willing to bet $500 the G8 has a sportier feel, tighter steering, tighter suspension, and perhaps more nimble or at least more tossable feel and actually numers wise will perform slightly better in handling tests than the Avalon. The Avalon is no where near the main competition, that competes with a Buick. Because you try to paint the Avalon as a better performer than G8 I have to say all this, I'm also skeptical dimmensions wise Avalon is near as large as G8 inside. Is Avalon even rated as a full-size car?

[Robert Hall]

The Silverado is rear drive and will still be around then.

Boring...it's a 5000lb truck. Hopefully GM will still have RWD cars, at least for Cadillac.

Otherwise, BMW and Mercedes will have rear wheel drive.

As will Infiniti and Lexus... and Jaguar if they are still around.

[buyacargetacheck]

The EPA classifies both cars as "Large" and both have 107 cubic ft of interior space. The driveshaft tunnel in the rear seat is slightly more intrusive in the G8 than Avalon. As I wrote before, the G8 trunk is larger.

While we're comparing the two I just have to say that owning a G8 will be a little more painful at tire replacement time. Even the all season tires found standard on the V6 are about twice as expensive as those on the Avalon (comparing OEM to OEM).

And if you get the summer tire package you can expect to pay even more while getting less treadwear and more expense during the winter as you then have to buy snow tires. These performance tires lend little increase in driving enjoyment for 99% of daily driving while increasing headaches (literally w/noise!) 100%. I made this mistake with a BMW based on looks alone. I'll never do it again.

Because you try to paint the Avalon as a better performer than G8 I have to say all this, I'm also skeptical dimmensions wise Avalon is near as large as G8 inside. Is Avalon even rated as a full-size car?

Edited March 18, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[Robert Hall]

The EPA classifies both cars as "Large" and both have 107 cubic ft of interior space. The driveshaft tunnel in the rear seat is slightly more intrusive in the G8 than Avalon. As I wrote before, the G8 trunk is larger.

I'd compare the Avalon to the Lucerne or Sable...it's more of a large, cushy Buick-style cruiser than the G8. The G8's only domestic competitor is the Charger, and for the imports, maybe the '09 Maxima? (yes, the Maxima is FWD, but it's a largish, cheap sport sedan...no RWD equivalents in the non-premium brands that I can think of).

Edited March 18, 2008 by moltar

[turbo200]

precisely, the G8 is athletic in a way no Avalon can claim. the virtue in its balance and good looks along are enough to sway this buyer. I was never and will never be in the avalon target audience though.

[buyacargetacheck]

Words and phrases like "athletic" or "driving machine" or "made for the driver" are meaningless in real-world driving, especially here in LA where you can easily spend more than half a commute in stop and go traffic and the rest dodging potholes (as you well know). But, buying decisions (as the ad men and PR mavens know) are based heavily on perception. "Athletic" is really about how you view yourself rather than the actual empirical abilities of the car. Psychology.

Speaking of actual abilities, be prepared to get dusted at the 405 onramps by grandpa in his Avalon.

precisely, the G8 is athletic in a way no Avalon can claim. the virtue in its balance...

[turbo200]

Words and phrases like "athletic" or "driving machine" or "made for the driver" are meaningless in real-world driving, especially here in LA where you can easily spend more than half a commute in stop and go traffic and the rest dodging potholes (as you well know). But, buying decisions (as the ad men and PR mavens know) are based heavily on perception. "Athletic" is really about how you view yourself rather than the actual empirical abilities of the car. Psychology.

Speaking of actual abilities, be prepared to get dusted at the 405 onramps by grandpa in his Avalon.

eh. gramps drives like a gramps, that's why he owns an Avalon. I dust him in my hybrid, in fact with gas prices and traffic the way it is today, I usually dust most people, bent on being conservative. but that's neither here nor there.

I don't think it meaningless when more than half of LA's roads are of the twisting kind. It's ultimately in the hands of the driver, and thier own psychology, what they like to do while they drive. I have a good time in my hybrid, and I do it in the confines of safe driving in heavy traffic conditions. [Of course there are those tortorous drives where and stop and go feels like it should be a system automatically programmed into your car].

Of course buying decisions are heavily based on perception. The Avalon buyer will think he's making a safe, economical, reliable choice. The G8 buyers will think he's buying the extrovert, the looker, the performance car.

I disagree with your stance. Athletic is a sense you get from a car's design to its innards, just like luxurious is a sense you get from a car. It all depends on what defines you most that attracts you to the car. Design is the first indicator of this trait, and the drive completes it. Example: salesman A says you want luxury sir? let's go look at this large, comfortable Lexus LS sedan that imparts luxury and expense.

[Camino LS6]

Zeta, and by extension the G8, are absolutely perfect for me in size and configuration. This is the sort of car I will always want to buy. Town cars and Avalons alike need not apply.

[The O.C.]

eh. gramps drives like a gramps, that's why he owns an Avalon. I dust him in my hybrid, in fact with gas prices and traffic the way it is today, I usually dust most people, bent on being conservative. but that's neither here nor there.

I don't think it meaningless when more than half of LA's roads are of the twisting kind. It's ultimately in the hands of the driver, and thier own psychology, what they like to do while they drive. I have a good time in my hybrid, and I do it in the confines of safe driving in heavy traffic conditions. [Of course there are those tortorous drives where and stop and go feels like it should be a system automatically programmed into your car].

Of course buying decisions are heavily based on perception. The Avalon buyer will think he's making a safe, economical, reliable choice. The G8 buyers will think he's buying the extrovert, the looker, the performance car.

I disagree with your stance. Athletic is a sense you get from a car's design to its innards, just like luxurious is a sense you get from a car. It all depends on what defines you most that attracts you to the car. Design is the first indicator of this trait, and the drive completes it. Example: salesman A says you want luxury sir? let's go look at this large, comfortable Lexus LS sedan that imparts luxury and expense.

Your guys' argument is academic at best.

Someone looking seriously at a Toyota (any Toyota) is very unlikely to go into a Pontiac showroom........and anyone seriously considering a G8 is not going to be remotely interested in seeing an Avalon.....

[Camino LS6]

Your guys' argument is academic at best.

Someone looking seriously at a Toyota (any Toyota) is very unlikely to go into a Pontiac showroom........and anyone seriously considering a G8 is not going to be remotely interested in seeing an Avalon.....

True.

An Avalon is is really disgusting - even for a Toyota. It's just a "wide load" version of Camry, which gives it some of the worst proportions in the market. The car manages to be bland and ugly all at once.

[The O.C.]

True.

An Avalon is is really disgusting - even for a Toyota. It's just a "wide load" version of Camry, which gives it some of the worst proportions in the market. The car manages to be bland and ugly all at once.

Well, I disagree with that......Avalon doesn't excite me.....but I find it attractive....and I LOVE the interior. In fact, I'd say I like the design of the Avalon alot better than the current Camry.....

[Camino LS6]

Well, I disagree with that......Avalon doesn't excite me.....but I find it attractive....and I LOVE the interior. In fact, I'd say I like the design of the Avalon alot better than the current Camry.....

You're kidding.

I'd rather have a Camry, and I think you know how I feel about that car.

[buyacargetacheck]

Yeah probably.

On the other hand what does a V6 G8 buyer find attractive about it over other cars? Power-to-weight ratio? Not that impressive. Better fuel economy? No. Styling? Pretty good but not drop dead gorgeous or upscale like Avalon. Fun-to-drive? No manual tranny so G8 V6 prospects are the same as Avalon ones in that respect. Prestige? None. In fact, G8 buyers (especially on the coasts and down South) will constantly be apologizing to their neighbors about their choice. I can hear it now..."Pontiac huh? Yeah, I had a Grand Am once. What a POS. Good luck with it!" Toyota buyers never have to apologize.

BTW, what kind of person goes "into a Pontiac showroom" nowadays?

Your guys' argument is academic at best.

Someone looking seriously at a Toyota (any Toyota) is very unlikely to go into a Pontiac showroom........and anyone seriously considering a G8 is not going to be remotely interested in seeing an Avalon.....

[smk4565]

Yeah probably.

On the other hand what does a V6 G8 buyer find attractive about it over other cars? Power-to-weight ratio? Not that impressive. Better fuel economy? No. Styling? Pretty good but not drop dead gorgeous or upscale like Avalon. Fun-to-drive? No manual tranny so G8 V6 prospects are the same as Avalon ones in that respect. Prestige? None. In fact, G8 buyers (especially on the coasts and down South) will constantly be apologizing to their neighbors about their choice. I can hear it now..."Pontiac huh? Yeah, I had a Grand Am once. What a POS. Good luck with it!" Toyota buyers never have to apologize.

Very true.

A V6 G8 has a 0-60 time in the 7.2 second range, nearly a second behind a Camry or Avalon, or Malibu V6 even. Rear drive handing is a plus, but it lags behind the Maxima/Avalon/Accord V6 loaded in other areas.

Most people don't want a car they have to justify or rationalize to friends or neighbors as to why they bought it. Pontiac has been building cars like that for years.

[SuperSport623]

i swear if a neighbor tries to make fun of me for a car purchase i made, they cen get my boot up their ass... since when the f@#k do i buy a car for my neighbors? i know everyones out to impress but im not gonna avoid buying a car because people will think less of me.. if it fits my criteria, im getting it...

hell my neighbors already think of me as white trash for driving, as they say "an old piece of garbage"

[smk4565]

BTW, what kind of person goes "into a Pontiac showroom" nowadays?

2008 pricing with Bonus Cash and Cash Allowance included

G5: $14,835

G6: $16,375

2009 Vibe: $15,895

Grand Prix: $20,960 (77.8% fleet sale in 2007)

Solstice: $21,785

Torrent: $21,835

Given that, I'd say people looking for cheap cars go into Pontiac showrooms.

[cletus8269]

so let me get this straight its not cool to beat on buick since there are new cars coming out for pontiac so we gonna flame on them for a while instead... gotcha

[smk4565]

From Leftlanenews.com

"Confirmed: STS/DTS to become one

As for the future of the STS/DTS, Taylor confirmed that Cadillac is working on consolidating the two. The new car will benefit from CTS-esque styling and will cater to a younger crowd. As far as size, the new car will rival the BMW 7-series, but will be priced like a 5-series. The new sedan will use a rear-wheel drive setup — with all-wheel drive a likely option — but Taylor failed to mention when we might see the new vehicle on the road."

The current STS is 1 inch shorter than the 7-series and the DTS is 10 inches longer and both are priced lower than a 5-series, and both are sales duds at this point. Why would Cadillac make another big car, priced like a 5-series and expect it not to be a dud? Why not make a car sized like a 5-series and priced like a 5-series. And a car sized like a 7-series and priced like a 7-series.

[Robert Hall]

From Leftlanenews.com

Why not make a car sized like a 5-series and priced like a 5-series. And a car sized like a 7-series and priced like a 7-series.

Because the market won't pay BMW prices for a Cadillac?

[smk4565]

Because the market won't pay BMW prices for a Cadillac?

They might if the Cadillac was equal or better. But given the current lineup, I would agree.

Jim Taylor also said that Cadillac would wait to see if Mercedes was successful with their BlueTech diesels before they offer a US diesel. Gotta love the follower mentality. That is the same strategy they used for the Prius, then they got behind. Why not be first for once.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah probably.

On the other hand what does a V6 G8 buyer find attractive about it over other cars? Power-to-weight ratio? Not that impressive. Better fuel economy? No. Styling? Pretty good but not drop dead gorgeous or upscale like Avalon. Fun-to-drive? No manual tranny so G8 V6 prospects are the same as Avalon ones in that respect. Prestige? None. In fact, G8 buyers (especially on the coasts and down South) will constantly be apologizing to their neighbors about their choice. I can hear it now..."Pontiac huh? Yeah, I had a Grand Am once. What a POS. Good luck with it!" Toyota buyers never have to apologize.

BTW, what kind of person goes "into a Pontiac showroom" nowadays?

Wow!

Nevermind, that's just too easy....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

i swear if a neighbor tries to make fun of me for a car purchase i made, they cen get my boot up their ass... since when the f@#k do i buy a car for my neighbors? i know everyones out to impress but im not gonna avoid buying a car because people will think less of me.. if it fits my criteria, im getting it...

hell my neighbors already think of me as white trash for driving, as they say "an old piece of garbage"

Just ignore those two..

They are the typical import buyer and they are EXACTLY what is wrong with our culture.

It's all about bull$h! and "putting on an act" instead of individuality and buying what you need or desire.

Sheep #1: GASP! You didn't buy a Toyota?!?!?! Is there any other car on earth worth owning? I mean, it's not like I've ever actually driven anything else but according to my friends, they're great! I'll stick with what's "safe"

Sheep #2: No, I couldn't buy a Toyota so I had to buy a Hyundai... I'm embarassed to even show up and the [iNSERT TRENDY COFFEE HOUSE HERE] with it.

Edited March 19, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[The O.C.]

Yeah probably.

On the other hand what does a V6 G8 buyer find attractive about it over other cars? Power-to-weight ratio? Not that impressive. Better fuel economy? No. Styling? Pretty good but not drop dead gorgeous or upscale like Avalon. Fun-to-drive? No manual tranny so G8 V6 prospects are the same as Avalon ones in that respect. Prestige? None. In fact, G8 buyers (especially on the coasts and down South) will constantly be apologizing to their neighbors about their choice. I can hear it now..."Pontiac huh? Yeah, I had a Grand Am once. What a POS. Good luck with it!" Toyota buyers never have to apologize.

BTW, what kind of person goes "into a Pontiac showroom" nowadays?

That's true.....and a good point......

I'm sure enthusiasts will be drawn to the G8 due to the V8 and RWD......but what will make the V6 version sell...? (Especially when the V8 is so competitively-priced.)

Then again, I see plenty of non-HEMI Chargers and 300s.....so someone is seeing the benefit of going into a Dodge or Chrysler store for something other than V8 grunt. I think styling has alot to do with it.

We'll see if the G8's styling draws V6 buyers into Pontiac.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

2008 pricing with Bonus Cash and Cash Allowance included

G5: $14,835

G6: $16,375

2009 Vibe: $15,895

Grand Prix: $20,960 (77.8% fleet sale in 2007)

Solstice: $21,785

Torrent: $21,835

Given that, I'd say people looking for cheap cars go into Pontiac showrooms.

*GASP!!*

And we all know that "cheap people" are losers with no ambition, mullets and a high school education at best?

I cannot believe the amount of arrogance in some of these posts. This isn't directed as a personal insult but I'd rather be a "cheap" "ignorant" individual than a poser yuppie anyday.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

They might if the Cadillac was equal or better. But given the current lineup, I would agree.

Jim Taylor also said that Cadillac would wait to see if Mercedes was successful with their BlueTech diesels before they offer a US diesel. Gotta love the follower mentality. That is the same strategy they used for the Prius, then they got behind. Why not be first for once.

I do agree with this though.

[smk4565]

The "what kind of buyers go into Pontiac dealerships nowadays" is an open invitation to jokes and insults, (much like it is easy to do with old people and Buick). I am just saying that the cars are low cost, similar to Kia or Hyundai before they had the Vera Cruz and Genesis and pushed upward a little bit.

[smk4565]

Here is the link to the Jim Taylor interview

http://www.leftlanenews.com/leftlane-sits-...f-cadillac.html

Diesel Escalade would be a good idea, especially with a hybrid system, even the BAS system that is lower cost.

[buyacargetacheck]

Actually just speaking the truth. And I'm actually a Jeep owner. So unless you count Toledo, OH as "ferrin" territory then...

The truth is buyers of automobiles the world over buy heavily for emotional reasons. So do you apparently. You want to be seen as patriotic and regular (though maybe you're not conscious of it). Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way we "killer apes" are wired in the head. And there's nothing inherently logical about buying American unless you can personally and empirically tie your economic well-being to buying a particular car, e.g., your father, son, etc works at the Spring Hill, TN factory, you get their Saturn family discount, it's important to you that they keep their jobs therefore you'll only buy an Ion. Otherwise it's just mindless flag waving.

BTW, I buy store-brand coffee.

Just ignore those two..

They are the typical import buyer and they are EXACTLY what is wrong with our culture.

It's all about bull$h! and "putting on an act" instead of individuality and buying what you need or desire.

Sheep #1: GASP! You didn't buy a Toyota?!?!?! Is there any other car on earth worth owning? I mean, it's not like I've ever actually driven anything else but according to my friends, they're great! I'll stick with what's "safe"

Sheep #2: No, I couldn't buy a Toyota so I had to buy a Hyundai... I'm embarassed to even show up and the [iNSERT TRENDY COFFEE HOUSE HERE] with it.

[buyacargetacheck]

There's nothing wrong with "cheap" although I prefer the word "thrifty" And I'm with you on the yuppie thing. Just know that the whole showing off of labels and checklists of lifestyle material goods is rooted in a certain measure of insecurity.

The problem is marketing Pontiac as the performance brand in a half-assed way over the last 30 years and expecting us to think otherwise. Do they think we're stupid!? I'd have more respect for GM if they positioned Pontiac for what it is and has been for a long time now: a restyled Chevy at a good price. Or, go all the way and ditch the economy cars and build a lineup that can't be outraced by "dad's" Camry.

*GASP!!*

And we all know that "cheap people" are losers with no ambition, mullets and a high school education at best?

I cannot believe the amount of arrogance in some of these posts. This isn't directed as a personal insult but I'd rather be a "cheap" "ignorant" individual than a poser yuppie anyday.

[turbo200]

That's true.....and a good point......

I'm sure enthusiasts will be drawn to the G8 due to the V8 and RWD......but what will make the V6 version sell...? (Especially when the V8 is so competitively-priced.)

Then again, I see plenty of non-HEMI Chargers and 300s.....so someone is seeing the benefit of going into a Dodge or Chrysler store for something other than V8 grunt. I think styling has alot to do with it.

We'll see if the G8's styling draws V6 buyers into Pontiac.

Well Pontiac has historically done well with sedans, both Gran Prix and Grand Am were popular sellers, especially upon intro. So its seems thier styling has appeal and draws in early adopters, the cars then endure with some of those same fans, but as the years go on more and more are being fleeted to maintain the figures, but it's probably because the mechanicals and designing of components [like a high quality interior] just weren't there in relation to the competition.

Pontiac has never had the advantage of selling a car that quality wise you could say lives up to the competitors [aside from Solstice for a short while and GTO]. This car offers roomy, comforting accomodations, better styling, much better proportions to give the impression of a modern quality car, classy trimmings inside and out, and actual performance to accompany a ballsy exterior. Based on that logic, it's entirely feasible that the 40k or so retail buyers duped into the Gran Prix at average transaction prices between 23k-25k, realistically those same buyers will be interested in paying a couple thousand more for the V6 G8. To stand apart from the crowd.

Pontiac has traditionally done well with bold styling. [this was one thing the bouncing heads at GM could figure out, that's why as the years went on in the late '90's, the styling got wilder and wilder.] It's just been raped of good product. So, if you think of it as an update to the Gran Prix, you'd be right on target. The Gran Prix pricing is reflected in the G8, just that there is no super duper low cost Malibu-priced Gran Prix now. And you can assume the G8 will attract a lot more, diversified buyers than the Gran Prix ever did, because it's not just a deal, it actually makes sense to make it your own.

Tit for tat, the G8 versus the competition offers, stand apart styling [for the price class], high quality interior ambience/trimmings, no foul balls no ill conceived proportions or interior panels [guys step back and remember what kind of a laughinstock of a car this G8 replaces, this a serious car, not some Bugs Bunny joke], similar pricing, competitive engine performance [despite smk's repeated efforts to espouse 0-60 religion on us, it's not gonna fly, not everybody lives by the clock], and superb driving dynamics. It will sell. A 3.2 DI or 2.8 DI turbo with better fuel economy would be even nicer, imo.

Edited March 19, 2008 by turbo200

[turbo200]

From Leftlanenews.com

"Confirmed: STS/DTS to become one

As for the future of the STS/DTS, Taylor confirmed that Cadillac is working on consolidating the two. The new car will benefit from CTS-esque styling and will cater to a younger crowd. As far as size, the new car will rival the BMW 7-series, but will be priced like a 5-series. The new sedan will use a rear-wheel drive setup — with all-wheel drive a likely option — but Taylor failed to mention when we might see the new vehicle on the road."

The current STS is 1 inch shorter than the 7-series and the DTS is 10 inches longer and both are priced lower than a 5-series, and both are sales duds at this point. Why would Cadillac make another big car, priced like a 5-series and expect it not to be a dud? Why not make a car sized like a 5-series and priced like a 5-series. And a car sized like a 7-series and priced like a 7-series.

I'm not sure if this was confirmed today or recently like in the last couple of days. This is basically what we've known could happen for a while. It's yet another confirmation that GM has decided to continue its strategy of offering a bigger car for less dollars. It's pitiful if you ask me. The CTS won't command 5-series starting prices, because (a) the 5-series is a BMW built on decades of legacy and image and (b) the CTS just doesn't match up with the 5-series in some regards. You don't have to command BMW prices to be a true competitor to BMW. This is the mistake that was made with the STS. Cadillac thought it would just price the STS really exclusively and all the BMW buyers would buy into it. But the STS wasn't enough car.

And Cadillac just doesn't have the mystique BMW does, yet. It won't until it starts producing cars on the level of BMW, consecutively. Lexus don't try to outprice BMW, oh no no no, and Audi don't. MB is MB, they can get away with it.

That doesn't mean offering 'more car for your dollar' is the right strategy. Yes, many people bought the CTS for its roominess, but there were several other reasons to thier purchase, and there's no reason to beleive those same buyers wouldn't pay 5k more if the quality were there.

[smk4565]

I agree that offering bigger car for less dollars is pitiful. That is what the DTS is now, big and cheap. That is what the Impala and current Buick sedans are, and all have poor resale and rely on fleets.

BMW prices are actually pretty good deals compared to Mercedes. A 535xi base is less than the cheapest E-class. The 7-series is less than the S-class. The E-class base price is $19,000 more than a base CTS, those cars are not in the same class. If Cadillac wants to compete with BMW and Mercedes they need cars of similar size and price.

[LosAngeles]

Why would one buy a V-6 G8? Well...

-There are people who could use a bigger body/interior than other V-6 cars

-Pontiac still packs lots of sporty personality, more so than any non-premium brand on the market, excepting maybe Mazda

-There are people who disagree with many C&Gers and feel the G8 is a looker

-Word will get out to many looking at those reasons, but probably can't get a V-8 version for whatever reason, but will get this model.

This car will do more good than harm. Even if a shiftable tranny never makes it to the lineup, I'm still likely to say "where do I sign up?"

As for what Ford should do? I still think they should consolidate Panther, the Falcon platform and D3 into one car (with the Falcon's mechanicals likely winning out). Let's watch how the MKS does, that could give some clues how D3 technology will work out for future use.

And as the comments in the article said, there is no pressing need to worry about drive wheels, so much as fuel economy, and how to get these cars to be lighter but still strong, in light of all this safety crap folks feel we need each passing model year.

Even after all this, it's been proven that cars can still be lookers and performers when we want them to be.

[regfootball]

I'm tellin' you.....GM's weight problem with their cars is gonna bite them in the ass one day........just look at what it does to performance. Remember the recent sport/luxury sedan comparo in C&D....?

In order to match the go-power of the base-engine 328i sedan, you have to go all the way up to the 3.6L DI version of the CTS......

(That being said.....I don't think it's that much of a drivetrain issue either......meaning RWD versus FWD......)

read winding roads review of the g8......aurora had 25hz chassis stiffness.....g8 is 55hz....over 2 times as stiff (some of you may like that!)

anyways......crash safety and rock solid feel take precedence in this country....and there is only so much high strength steel or aluminum they can be willing to pay for too.

the vault like chassis that mags have been praising for good steering and suspension, that is how you get it.

what are you gonna sacrifice? Look under the hood of a nissan rogue and look at how flimsy all the brackets etc are. now look under the hood of a NA designed domestic car......stout components. lean agaist the rear fender of an altima and feel it flex. now lean against the fender of something else.

you can only remove weight down to a point. i am sure toyota did that with their tundra tailgate. the vue weight is out of hand, but i don't think the g8 is all that much, considering the length, wheelbase, and track dimensions. the g8 is a LARGE LARGE car!

v6 g8 for those who don't want to get in trouble with the 360hp + especially in winter.

Edited March 28, 2008 by regfootball