GM @ NYIAS '08: Pontiac G8 GXP

[eldiablobanshee]

Oh.....but he said the G8 GT was "faster" than......and the GXP should "smoke" the SRTs......

I think it will be a good race between the GXP and SRT-8s.......remember, we don't know how much the GXP will weigh......LX SRT-8 sedans and G8 GTs are pretty close in curb weight.....so we'll have to see....

I wrote my statement after reading my new motor trend mag were they had a G8 GT up against a charger R/T. The G8 GT out handled and out accelerated the R/T by a far margin and motor trend showed that its numbers compared better to the last charger SRT-8 they tested.

On a side note motor trend had a comparison test in the same mag of a mustang GT premium against the base model of the top mustang tuners (sellen,roush, and shelby) the G8 GTs numbers were better or very close to all of them and the G8 was cheaper than the stock mustang.

[AAS]

..

The BMW 135i does 0-60 in 4.7 seconds with 300 hp. Horsepower number isn't everything, depends on how you use it. And I'm aware the 135i is 2 door and more like a Shelby Mustang or Camaro SS competitor if you were going to compare it to an American car.

Really? Where did you get that number? BMW claims 5.1 for the MT and 5.2 for the AT.

[turbo200]

My complaint is that it seems Pontiac recycled all the old plastic body cladding into a gray, rubbermaid interior. The G8 interior is almost as bad as the Charger's.

huh? [scooby Doo ears]

The G8 interior is about as minimalist as you can get, free of unnecessary touches and complete with enough bling and overall elegance to fully satisfy the average person just looking for a classy interior. It's pretty nice in there. Coming from someone who loves Audi, MB, BMW interior design.

[smk4565]

Really? Where did you get that number? BMW claims 5.1 for the MT and 5.2 for the AT.

Car and Driver online, with the manual transmission. The 335i has been clocked as low as 4.9 seconds, the 135i weighs less. BMW claims are usually a little slower than what the car can really do. Just like the 300 hp claim is probably low when the dyno test showed 270-275 on the 335i.

[smk4565]

huh? [scooby Doo ears]

The G8 interior is about as minimalist as you can get, free of unnecessary touches and complete with enough bling and overall elegance to fully satisfy the average person just looking for a classy interior. It's pretty nice in there. Coming from someone who loves Audi, MB, BMW interior design.

It isn't nice, it is monotone dark gray plastic with 90s Stratus style A/C vents and panel gaps on the dashboard to the left and right of the steering wheel. The Malibu interior is better and costs $10,000 less. The G8 interior is a half step up from a Mazda 3.

[Chevy Nick]

I don't think some of you gentlemen understand the engine hp rating issues. In the past, Corvette and Camaro had the same ls1 engine. Corvette was rated at 350 hp, Camaro was rated 325. When they were both put on the same dyno, guess what? the made the exact same power. The GXP will probably get the exact same LS3 engine as the vette, it's just that GM is only claiming 402 hp. It's marketing bull$h!.

[SuperSport623]

I don't think some of you gentlemen understand the engine hp rating issues. In the past, Corvette and Camaro had the same ls1 engine. Corvette was rated at 350 hp, Camaro was rated 325. When they were both put on the same dyno, guess what? the made the exact same power. The GXP will probably get the exact same LS3 engine as the vette, it's just that GM is only claiming 402 hp. It's marketing bull$h!.

exactly.. its the 50 year old "Nothing touches the Vette" rule...

[regfootball]

comparing a car that will fit 4 real adults and luggage to a tiny 2 door poseur car (albeit one with good manners and power) that can't even fit an overnight bag in the back seat is not a valid comparo.

[Intrepidation]

i can't believe all the f-cking bitching.

the gto was never good enough. the g8 is worlds above the GTO and we get a rear drive 400 hp manual trans sedan with tasteful good looks and people are still bitching.

Jesus Christ. 400, 430, none of you have the skill the drive to make a difference with the extra 30 hp. My God. Can you not just be pleased with a 400hp rwd man trans pontiac that can perform 95% to the level of a BMW for a lot less $$$$$?

considering gas will be like 3.50 or more this summer, pissing about 30hp on a car with 400 already seems to be rather insane.

did anyone ever consider that maybe its easier to get the extra hp on the vette because of easier exhaust plumbing?

You want the extra hp, go ahead and spend the dough for some mods yourself.

Well spoken Reg

On another note, it appears smk has decided to pull numbers and misguided views out of his ass yet again.

[turbo200]

It isn't nice, it is monotone dark gray plastic with 90s Stratus style A/C vents and panel gaps on the dashboard to the left and right of the steering wheel. The Malibu interior is better and costs $10,000 less. The G8 interior is a half step up from a Mazda 3.

What are you talking about man, just go sit in the car. Just. Do. It.

Have you sat in one? Just answer that question first, honestly, and this will give us your qualification for your claims.

I am a seriously critical person when it comes to interior design. I am seriously critical of all forms of design, from jeans, to homes, to women. And I am seriously critical of quality, from fabric to plastics to metals. And I'm critical of all things that have been engineered, created from start to finish. One of the first things that started to wear on me about my Civic ['07 Navi] was the interior design. Like it never actually appealed to me all that much. It has its nice touches, Navi helps, but the design fails to meet my standards, even though I can say there are spices of good design.

All that being said, the Mazda 3 has a fine interior for the mid class sector. Meaning, you could transplant much of what makes this interior a winner into any under 30k car. For the price, quality does get better, mostly in VW and the Accord, I guess, when comparing to the Mazda3 [newer crossovers like the Murano, CX series don't really count as those can get into the mid to high 30's pretty easily].

When talking strictly cars and its price class, there is not anything you can say against the G8, for its price class. It generally competes with loaded Accords and Camrys, and has quality equivalent to those with what to my eyes is a superior design. I guess the Legacy GT has a higher quality [though I haven't been in this car in a long while]. Look, I'm not blowing smoke, if I say the interior quality is acceptable, it just is. It's no circa-2000 Passat, but then not many surpass VW's incredible touch for quality. Just want to clarify what I'm talking about here, your first time in the 2000 Passat, whenever that was, well close to the intro date, not now, you would have said, wow, this is seriously nice, and everything was just right. That wow factor isn't necessarily there in the G8, except that everything does feel right, but not necessarily shockingly good like the Passat was then.

All in all the design works. It works really well. Sit in the back seat and you get a sense of an elegant, purposeful sedan. No misses here. No misses. It could be fancier, it could be a more eye-catching design, like the Malibu, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and the design fits the character of the car really well.

Edited March 17, 2008 by turbo200

[Intrepidation]

You're waisting your time turbo, it's like talking to a deaf, not particularly smart wall.

[turbo200]

And that's the best part about the car. It's a complete car. Inside and out it knocks you out with how much it makes sense. Thoroughly executed. From Pontiac. Yeah, there was no last time you could say that, not in my lifetime.

Dodgefan: I don't like giving up either.

Edited March 17, 2008 by turbo200

[Z-06]

And that's the best part about the car. It's a complete car. Inside and out it knocks you out with how much it makes sense. Thoroughly executed. From Pontiac. Yeah, there was no last time you could say that, not in my lifetime.

Dodgefan: I don't like giving up either.

Can you fill water in a tumbler that is placed upside down under a faucet and the base does not have a hole?

The answer to question is basis of DF's conjecture.

[regfootball]

now imagine an Alpha version of the G8 with a G6 tag on it.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

now imagine an Alpha version of the G8 with a G6 tag on it.

Heaven...

It would completely redefine the segment IMO.

[The O.C.]

huh? [scooby Doo ears]

The G8 interior is about as minimalist as you can get, free of unnecessary touches and complete with enough bling and overall elegance to fully satisfy the average person just looking for a classy interior. It's pretty nice in there. Coming from someone who loves Audi, MB, BMW interior design.

I'd have to say the Charger interior is better finished.....but the G8 interior is better styled.....so call it a tie I say......

[Northstar]

I'd have to say the Charger interior is better finished.....but the G8 interior is better styled.....so call it a tie I say......

From what I have seen, it seems that the preproduction cars were not anywhere near the quality of the production vehicles. The pre-pro car I sat in had some poor fits, but nothing I've seen indicates the production vehicles have those same problems. Other than the poor quality of some of the fits, I didn't find anything better about the Charger interior... G8 had better materials, they were just put together rather cheaply. IIRC, you sat in a pre-pro G8 and had some of the same quibbles as I did. Have you sat in a production G8 and it had the same problems?

[Drew Dowdell]

I'd have to say the Charger interior is better finished.....but the G8 interior is better styled.....so call it a tie I say......

Show of hands. How many on this board have sat in a production G8?

[The O.C.]

From what I have seen, it seems that the preproduction cars were not anywhere near the quality of the production vehicles. The pre-pro car I sat in had some poor fits, but nothing I've seen indicates the production vehicles have those same problems. Other than the poor quality of some of the fits, I didn't find anything better about the Charger interior... G8 had better materials, they were just put together rather cheaply. IIRC, you sat in a pre-pro G8 and had some of the same quibbles as I did. Have you sat in a production G8 and it had the same problems?

I'm not debating fits....because that can change with production. But the materials and switchgear were a step behind what I've seen in a Charger. The materials were cheaper (and the dash top has that same "dot matrix" plastic trim as my '07 CTS) and the center stack controls and steering wheel stalks were flimsy at best.

But it definitely looks better and is more attractive than the Charger....

[thegriffon]

I don't think some of you gentlemen understand the engine hp rating issues. In the past, Corvette and Camaro had the same ls1 engine. Corvette was rated at 350 hp, Camaro was rated 325. When they were both put on the same dyno, guess what? the made the exact same power. The GXP will probably get the exact same LS3 engine as the vette, it's just that GM is only claiming 402 hp. It's marketing bull$h!.

The engine setup now goes to a third party for certification, hence the normal bump in output over the always conservative GM figures. At this point most other companies don't do that unless they have a hight output engine they are really confident about.

[gm4life]

I spent alot of time in one at the Chicago Autoshow and thought it had a nice design and even nicer material's. Then again I own a Bonneville a car with an interior people hate apparently.

[turbo200]

I've sat in a production car!

honestly, as long as the quality is good, which it is, what matters most in any interior is how it looks and consistency. You can't have three panels that look great and then boom one piece is awful and doesn't mesh at all with the interior. Cough*CTS*cough I remain truly disappointed with that interior. It looks high quality and in some pieces is truly there but then other appointments defy its $49k total price, ahem rear center armrest, ahem thin, hollow door panels, ahem cheap center stack, ahem insubstantial radio/HVAC controls

See I'm not crazy or giving the G8 a free pass! The G8 has very appropriate quality for its class. I think the items that matter it gets right, center armrest/storage, gear selector design and quality, center stack controls, door armrest padding/design, door panels feel/solidarity, steering wheel shape/design/size/quality.......anywho that's getting detailed. I didn't find flimsy center stack controls, yeah they lack the padded substantial feel of a VW, but then so does most everyone else. That's one air of perfection that isn't needed to evoke good, just perfection. So VW's perfect, G8's great. It is definitely in the right price class and feels like a great $30k car. The impression of size and the comfort of seating all around really help. The all around room to stretch out add a great deal to the impression.

Edited March 17, 2008 by turbo200

[smk4565]

I've sat in a production car!

honestly, as long as the quality is good, which it is, what matters most in any interior is how it looks and consistency. You can't have three panels that look great and then boom one piece is awful and doesn't mesh at all with the interior. Cough*CTS*cough I remain truly disappointed with that interior. It looks high quality and in some pieces is truly there but then other appointments defy its $49k total price, ahem rear center armrest, ahem thin, hollow door panels, ahem cheap center stack, ahem insubstantial radio/HVAC controls

I agree about the CTS interior, parts are good, and parts are discount plastic. The gray plastic on the map pockets on the doors is flimsy, the gray plastic around the center console is cheap, gray plastic surrounds the speedo and tach that sick out. The interior was designed to fit a $33k car so they could have a low base, but people that like a loaded up model (like myself) pay $48,000 for a $33,000 interior.

I have not sat in the G8 yet, I saw the concept car at the auto show last year, I'll sit in it when I go in April. It better be much better in person, because in photos and from looking through the window in person, it appears to be on par with the Mazda 3, Malibu and not even as good as the Accord and those cars are much cheaper. I think the Dodge Charger interior is really bad, although the Avenger/Sebring are even worse.

I am very interested in sitting in the Hyundai Genesis. The G8 has to compete with that car, and the Genesis has more luxury gear, more horsepower, and a 500+ watt, 17 speaker stereo from the Rolls-Royce Phantom. (even the CTS is left with 10 speakers as its top end system) Although I wouldn't buy a Pontiac or a Hyundai, I see either brand as a step down from the Aurora.

[K.C.]

i can't believe all the f-cking bitching.

the gto was never good enough. the g8 is worlds above the GTO and we get a rear drive 400 hp manual trans sedan with tasteful good looks and people are still bitching.

Jesus Christ. 400, 430, none of you have the skill the drive to make a difference with the extra 30 hp. My God. Can you not just be pleased with a 400hp rwd man trans pontiac that can perform 95% to the level of a BMW for a lot less $$$$$?

considering gas will be like 3.50 or more this summer, pissing about 30hp on a car with 400 already seems to be rather insane.

did anyone ever consider that maybe its easier to get the extra hp on the vette because of easier exhaust plumbing?

You want the extra hp, go ahead and spend the dough for some mods yourself.

<rant> Agreed. For the years when there was no rear wheel drive Pontiac sedan, there was all the bitching about how there should be one, and now that there is one there is bitching that it isn't enough. Geez peole. Acceptance is the key to happiness, and bitching over 25 horses. Some people need to get a life, or maybe a job that requires more of their time so they stop bitching about 25 hp. </rant>

[Lamar]

I am very interested in sitting in the Hyundai Genesis. The G8 has to compete with that car, and the Genesis has more luxury gear, more horsepower, and a 500+ watt, 17 speaker stereo from the Rolls-Royce Phantom. (even the CTS is left with 10 speakers as its top end system) Although I wouldn't buy a Pontiac or a Hyundai, I see either brand as a step down from the Aurora.

Per

, first posted by Autoblog, the Genesis also drives without any sporting pretentions at all. And it's not even as luxurious as they make it out to be.

Since you're so into reviews, I thought you'd like to watch one from someone who drove the car instead of just going off pictures.

[cletus8269]

I have not sat in the G8 yet, I saw the concept car at the auto show last year, I'll sit in it when I go in April. It better be much better in person, because in photos and from looking through the window in person, it appears to be on par with the Mazda 3, Malibu and not even as good as the Accord and those cars are much cheaper. I think the Dodge Charger interior is really bad, although the Avenger/Sebring are even worse.

I am very interested in sitting in the Hyundai Genesis. The G8 has to compete with that car, and the Genesis has more luxury gear, more horsepower, and a 500+ watt, 17 speaker stereo from the Rolls-Royce Phantom. (even the CTS is left with 10 speakers as its top end system) Although I wouldn't buy a Pontiac or a Hyundai, I see either brand as a step down from the Aurora.

i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you keep demanding GM to make a RWD impala. Buddy, this is going to be as close as you will probably ever get to one, its not on paper, its not "gonna be coming soon", its here. Embrace it for what it is and what it does. we understand it falls short in the automotive world that is defined by you because in only 4 pages you have said so multiple times. please for the love of everything Holy quit raining on our parade. Pontiac is actually driving excitement again.

[turbo200]

I agree about the CTS interior, parts are good, and parts are discount plastic. The gray plastic on the map pockets on the doors is flimsy, the gray plastic around the center console is cheap, gray plastic surrounds the speedo and tach that sick out. The interior was designed to fit a $33k car so they could have a low base, but people that like a loaded up model (like myself) pay $48,000 for a $33,000 interior.

I have not sat in the G8 yet, I saw the concept car at the auto show last year, I'll sit in it when I go in April. It better be much better in person, because in photos and from looking through the window in person, it appears to be on par with the Mazda 3, Malibu and not even as good as the Accord and those cars are much cheaper. I think the Dodge Charger interior is really bad, although the Avenger/Sebring are even worse.

I am very interested in sitting in the Hyundai Genesis. The G8 has to compete with that car, and the Genesis has more luxury gear, more horsepower, and a 500+ watt, 17 speaker stereo from the Rolls-Royce Phantom. (even the CTS is left with 10 speakers as its top end system) Although I wouldn't buy a Pontiac or a Hyundai, I see either brand as a step down from the Aurora.

I'm starting to think we're not even on the same page quality-wise. But a couple points here....first of all, I think you're pricing the G8 in your mind a little higher than it is. See it's loaded at $33k, that's top of the line maxed out, with a big honkin engine that'll make you smile. The car is in the right place market wise, but that means it doesn't undercut its competition, fully loaded Accords/Camrys/Maximas/300s/Chargers, but rather sits in good company with them. As it should, as a really great Pontiac. Want to see what another limited Pontiac with great desirability does for resale, check GTO resale.

Next point is who cares about Hyundai? Seriously, I mean the Genesis is first of all not a car I'd like to be seen in, but then to put icing on the cake, it's got a brand name I also wouldn't like to be associated with. Would I buy one, yeah maybe if that Genesis coupe gets styled right I might consider it since it actually represents a 180 from Hyundai's image [from what I saw of the concept], but the sedan does no favors to that brand, regardless of what price/quality/performance the car may have. The Genesis sedan is not a car screaming "My buyer made the right choice."

Finally, RWD RWD RWD. Balance balance balance. High quality leather, room to stretch out, cool red interface, and a luxurious ambience, though I am a major fan of black and this could be swaying me a lot...

Edited March 18, 2008 by turbo200

[Drew Dowdell]

I didn't find flimsy center stack controls, yeah they lack the padded substantial feel of a VW, but then so does most everyone else. That's one air of perfection that isn't needed to evoke good, just perfection. So VW's perfect, G8's great.

The VW interiors look great and feel great...... until they start falling apart in your hands.

Just a short list of Passat interior troubles my ex's 70,000 mile car had:

Power/heated mirror control knob snapped off

Cupholder "plood" broke off

Cupholder catch would no longer hold, cupholder remained permanently open interfering with HVAC operation

corners of passenger side airbag cover curling up

Rear sunshade retainer clip broken

passenger side seatbelt wouldn't retract

Probably more electrical, but sometimes the automatic HVAC system wouldn't "boot up" when you started the car. So you'd have to turn the car off and try again.

just sayin.....

[smk4565]

I agree that rear drive is the way to go, but Pontiac's brand image is just about as low as Hyundai's. The 09 Maxima interior is much nicer, although that's a front driver. I'll have to compare the 300C and G8 at the auto show. The one thing Pontiac has going for them is there are very few full size rear drive sedans for $30,000.

[K.C.]

A better comparison (price wise) would be comparing the G8 to the Charger. The 300C bases a good $4K-$5K higher than the G8 and is not as sporty. Now, if Buick had a rear drive Zeta sedan, that would compete better with the 300C.

[The O.C.]

The VW interiors look great and feel great...... until they start falling apart in your hands.

Just a short list of Passat interior troubles my ex's 70,000 mile car had:

Power/heated mirror control knob snapped off

Cupholder "plood" broke off

Cupholder catch would no longer hold, cupholder remained permanently open interfering with HVAC operation

corners of passenger side airbag cover curling up

Rear sunshade retainer clip broken

passenger side seatbelt wouldn't retract

Probably more electrical, but sometimes the automatic HVAC system wouldn't "boot up" when you started the car. So you'd have to turn the car off and try again.

just sayin.....

Sorry pal.....one car, one person does not necessarily a trend make......

[Drew Dowdell]

Sorry pal.....one car, one person does not necessarily a trend make......

I am not alone in my experience of poor interior durability in a VW, however my combination of issues may indeed be unique.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

VW quality problems are widely confirmed by consumers. Now, the media is a different story. (As always, they don't report the facts)

[smk4565]

I think VWs and Audis are built solid, but a lot of the interior parts are hard or stiff, although that comes from the German utilitarian theme. I'm not a fan of their interior designs, but they use better materials and fit them together tighter than the domestics. I've always thought it was mechanical problems that plagued Audis, I knew a couple people that had them and were horrid on maintenance once they got to be about 5 years old, and both got rid of the car and went to another brand.

The Chrysler 300 is close enough in price that both it and the Charger will get cross shopped to the G8. A 300 with the prestigious "Great American Package" is just $26,860. They really do have too trim levels with poor names for that car, such as the Herritage edition, Signiature Series Value Package and Walter P. Chrysler Executive Series. Sounds like old Town Car names.

[turbo200]

Hyundai and Pontiac are in different positions image-wise. Hyundai has been a bargain basement brand and has never escaped that brand, its designs only enforce this. they have no consistent strong design theme, except that they look flimsy, Asian, and generic. Perceived quality has always been poor.Then you have actual reliability, and in this area they are still dogs. All the surveys except maybe short term surveys, show them consistently scoring near the bottom, and I think the general perception continues that they are not reliable, though this has obviously dramatically increased over the years.

Pontiac is in a completely different place. They have a history here and are revered by few for that reason and a sort of laughingstock for others because of that reason. They are the butt of jokes because their cars are cheesy and camp, despite being American and having that inherent advantage of being once embroiled in our culture. They are not looked at as cheaply as Hyundai by many, and yet most Americans consider them tacky and completely ill-concieved, but that doesn't have to do with reliability. As a whole, I don't think it's a stigma of unreliability that's hurting them. It's true that many have had bad experience with GM and Pontiac and there are those who won't ever consider the brand, but I believe the number of people who look at them and think they are just cheap/tacky is greater. This is a design issue, not engineering. of course the powertrain/suspension/steering choices have also been poor in the past, and this contributed to an overall "American cars are unfinished" image.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think VWs and Audis are built solid.

most of your "thoughts" have already been debunked on this board.....

[SuperSport623]

Has smk ever contributed? i try to stay out of the arguments he gets into but he seems to be full of more &#036;h&#33; then a truck stop bathroom

[Intrepidation]

Has smk ever contributed? i try to stay out of the arguments he gets into but he seems to be full of more &#036;h&#33; then a truck stop bathroom

Best Analogy in a long time.

I can't recall a single post of his that was meaningful/helpful/factual/useful.

[The O.C.]

VW quality problems are widely confirmed by consumers. Now, the media is a different story. (As always, they don't report the facts)

My Aunt and Uncle own a VW dealership in Oklahoma City.....and they confirm that the problems of years past are pretty much history......(given that no car is perfect and there's bound to be the occasional problem....)

22K miles on my own A4 and climbing.....not the slightest issue with the car, electronics, trim, or anything so far.......

Edited March 19, 2008 by The O.C.

[prinzSD]

huh? [scooby Doo ears]

The G8 interior is about as minimalist as you can get, free of unnecessary touches and complete with enough bling and overall elegance to fully satisfy the average person just looking for a classy interior. It's pretty nice in there. Coming from someone who loves Audi, MB, BMW interior design.

True, but I read an interesting point of view in one of the rags. When the 2004 GTO came out the press said it was one of the best GM interiors. However, now in light of the new CTS, they are saying the G8 interior looks like it from parts bin and looks cheap compared to the CTS. The CTS is the new standard for interiors within GM. I have to agree on this point, the interior on the G8 looks a little too hard.

[Lamar]

True, but I read an interesting point of view in one of the rags. When the 2004 GTO came out the press said it was one of the best GM interiors. However, now in light of the new CTS, they are saying the G8 interior looks like it from parts bin and looks cheap compared to the CTS. The CTS is the new standard for interiors within GM. I have to agree on this point, the interior on the G8 looks a little too hard.

I mean... Cadillac is supposed to be the highest-level luxury brand within GM, so one would expect its interior to be the best. It's a bit unfair, I think, to compare anything from Chevy, Pontiac, or Saturn to it.

It's like comparing the MINI Cooper to the 3-series... the Focus to the MKZ... the xD to the IS250... et cetera. IMO it doesn't make much sense.

[prinzSD]

I mean... Cadillac is supposed to be the highest-level luxury brand within GM, so one would expect its interior to be the best. It's a bit unfair, I think, to compare anything from Chevy, Pontiac, or Saturn to it.

It's like comparing the MINI Cooper to the 3-series... the Focus to the MKZ... the xD to the IS250... et cetera. IMO it doesn't make much sense.

I agree it is unfair to compare a Pontiac to a Cadillac and I do not know why the rags do it. On the other, the reverse can be said about the 2004 GTO compared to 2004 Cadillacs in which case the GTO had the better interior and so in that regards Cadillac had no excuses.

[Lamar]

I agree it is unfair to compare a Pontiac to a Cadillac and I do not know why the rags do it. On the other, the reverse can be said about the 2004 GTO compared to 2004 Cadillacs in which case the GTO had the better interior and so in that regards Cadillac had no excuses.

Well, yeah... GMNA had been cursed (cursed itself?) with subpar interiors for a long time.