Automotive Death Watch

[PurdueGuy]

This isn't some "GM Death Watch" thread. This is industry-wide. Who do you think the next brand or company will be to leave the US market? There's been serious talk about Mitsu leaving, occasional talk about VW leaving, though I haven't had that impression myself. Then of course there's the occasional clamor for axing a GM brand. Isuzu is gone (practically has been for a while, though).

So, who's next to leave the US market or shut down?

[ltdaniels]

i'd go mitsubishi.. vw still has a pretty large following.

[Drew Dowdell]

Isuzu, Chrysler, Mitsubishi <after Chrysler because they rely on them a lot>, Mercury, Suzuki,

in that order

a few years down the road, I could see SCION getting absorbed back into Toyota.

[regfootball]

if toyota and subaru left it would be a great start. downsize honda. mits and suzuki if they left wouldn't matter. we don't need mini either.

[Intrepidation]

if toyota and subaru left it would be a great start. downsize honda. mits and suzuki if they left wouldn't matter. we don't need mini either.

Maybe if you don't like small fun to drive cars with character, otherwise Mini should and will remain here.

[Satty]

Suggesting Mini leave is asinine, they sell very well and hold their value for a reason. They're tons of fun and practical for 1 or 2 people.

Isuzu has already announced they're leaving, Mitsu and Suzuki need to follow. Nothing worthwhile at either. High end/high priced VWs need to leave so Audi can prosper, make the rest of the lineup genuine "People's Cars" and they'll be fine. Chrysler/Dodge and Jeep aren't going to leave the market, but they are going to be sold off. As I said in another thread, I think Dodge will become part of Nissan, you'll still see Dodge branded trucks and probably a few rebadged Nissans/Renaults as Dodges here. Chrysler will be turning Chinese and Jeep will either be bought up by Mahindra or GM. All 3 will remain in the market, they need to die in their current form.

Pontiac probably needs to die, as do either Lincoln or Mercury.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Satty

[Intrepidation]

Mercury is next to go I think, and if Pontiac doesn't get Alpha and the G8 is killed with no worthwhile replacement it might as well be dead.

[Robert Hall]

Mercury is next to go I think, and if Pontiac doesn't get Alpha and the G8 is killed with no worthwhile replacement it might as well be dead.

That seems the most plausible. One other development that I think is likely is that Prius is going to become a distinct brand with a range of models.

[VenSeattle]

Manufacturers: Mitsubishi, Chrysler LLC (it won't be around in current form much longer, as Satty mentioned)

Brands: Mercury, Pontiac, Scion, Jaguar, LR

Suzuki has a lifeline if small cars take off in the US as predicted.

Volkswagen's up in the air. They have a chance, but their strategy is very aggressive... too much so IMO...

If it's not posted already, I'll post the article for separate discussion in another forum...

[Lamar]

Isuzu (but we already know that).

Mitsubishi would already be gone if the Lancer variations weren't so interesting.

I'll go out on a limb here and predict... Scion. Going the way of Daihatsu.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Mercury is next to go I think, and if Pontiac doesn't get Alpha and the G8 is killed with no worthwhile replacement it might as well be dead.

My mother taught me if you can't say anything nice, not to say anything at all. So I'll keep quiet!

[Cory Wolfe]

if toyota and subaru left it would be a great start. downsize honda. mits and suzuki if they left wouldn't matter. we don't need mini either.

My mother taught me if you can't say anything nice, not to say anything at all. So I'll keep quiet!

I agree. I ought to not respond to such asininity.

[CARBIZ]

Oh, is this the monthly WHICH BRAND DO YOU PERSONALLY HATE MOST thread?

I say Desoto is the next to go.

Am I too late?

[wildcat]

asininity

I get the meaning, but is that a real word?

[Cory Wolfe]

I get the meaning, but is that a real word?

My spell checker says yes.

Edited March 12, 2008 by blackviper8891

[Hudson]

I've got to figure that Toyota will do something with Scion, so that's out (unless they pull a "Geo" move and "merge" it back into the Toyota brand). GM has been merging Buick and Pontiac for years, so it wouldn't surprise me if they dropped one of the brands at some point...but not soon. Nobody, even inside of Ford, can give a reason why Mercury should remain on the market. It's just a matter of time before someone at Mitsubishi realizes that they're not going to come back in the US (please explain the comment about relying on Chrysler, which they haven't in years). Suzuki's doing well...I don't understand why so many on this thread think otherwise. Jaguar, Land Rover, and Mini aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

[daves87rs]

Mitsu. But you guys knew that already....

Dodge. Nobody cares much for the cars anymore, and Toyota will be more than happy to replace those trucks sales...though judging by silverado sales, there won't be much left....

Pontiac. I'll give it 5 years, that's about it. The G8 is not going to save it...

Edited March 12, 2008 by daves87rs

[regfootball]

if toyota left, then that would solve this thread. everyone else could divvy up those sales.

my vote is to send toyota away and send hyundai and kia with them.

[Croc]

I'd say Mitsu...because that's the only brand that will logically be axed from the US market.

The rest is just ridiculous BS. Pontiac is the only GM brand in any jeopardy whatsoever, and even it will most likely stay. Just like China justifies Buick, Canada justifies Pontiac. Is Pontiac losing money? I'll bet it provides the bulk of volume for B/P/GMC dealerships.

Now, if PCS is right, and Saturn gets merged into B/GMC, then Pontiac may go the way of the dodo. But until that happens, I just don't see it. G8 should be fairly good, and I still see enough Solstices around to know someone has Pontiac on their radar. The G5 coupes are sharper-looking than their Cobalt siblings, and I see enough of those around LA as well. With a new interior, the G6 could also be a pretty great car; it's the only competitive volume midsized GM coupe, and it also has the convertible. Give it an interior to match the exterior, and it will sell much better.

As for Mercury, in its current interation it really doesn't make much sense. That said, Lincoln is slowly being moved upmarket, and that should give Mercury more room. Mercury also gives volume to Lincoln-Mercury dealerships, so unless Ford re-consolidates its brands, Mercury is needed by those dealers. Ford really has an opportunity to take Lincoln back to its roots as a serious luxury competitor, and then Mercury will be able to breathe a little and be the near-lux brand it's always needed to be.

[The O.C.]

Oh, is this the monthly WHICH BRAND DO YOU PERSONALLY HATE MOST thread?

I say Desoto is the next to go.

Am I too late?

Honey, honey, honey...

Don't date yourself.....

[The O.C.]

Suzuki's doing well...I don't understand why so many on this thread think otherwise.

Actually they are not doing as well as you think.

I worked for Suzuki for like 4 years.....and I guarantee you, you WILL see the automotive division pull out of N.A. It's only a matter of time.

Suzuki had great promise.....and alot of good employees that worked there. BUT, contrary to what you find at companies like Honda, Toyota, etc., (which rely heavily on input from North America) Suzuki was almost arrogant (in a Korean-type way) about it's position in the U.S......blaming the N.A. employees.....insisting that because they are one of the largest auto companies in the world (primarily from it's strength in Japan and India) that they should be as big as Honda or Toyota here. Feedback from the U.S. on product decisions was never heard and/or understood.

Amazing......contrary to their overwhelming success in the motorcycle and ATV divisions......

I still have a few friends inside Suzuki....and they tell me the "new" XL7 is a HUGE disappointment. Also, with the demise of the Korean entries (a huge mistake in my mind to offer those to begin with) they are back down to 3 vehicles......SX4, XL7, and Grand Vitara.....none that are all that competitive in the marketplace.

[The O.C.]

I'd say Mitsu...because that's the only brand that will logically be axed from the US market.

The rest is just ridiculous BS. Pontiac is the only GM brand in any jeopardy whatsoever, and even it will most likely stay. Just like China justifies Buick, Canada justifies Pontiac. Is Pontiac losing money? I'll bet it provides the bulk of volume for B/P/GMC dealerships.

Now, if PCS is right, and Saturn gets merged into B/GMC, then Pontiac may go the way of the dodo. But until that happens, I just don't see it. G8 should be fairly good, and I still see enough Solstices around to know someone has Pontiac on their radar. The G5 coupes are sharper-looking than their Cobalt siblings, and I see enough of those around LA as well. With a new interior, the G6 could also be a pretty great car; it's the only competitive volume midsized GM coupe, and it also has the convertible. Give it an interior to match the exterior, and it will sell much better.

As for Mercury, in its current interation it really doesn't make much sense. That said, Lincoln is slowly being moved upmarket, and that should give Mercury more room. Mercury also gives volume to Lincoln-Mercury dealerships, so unless Ford re-consolidates its brands, Mercury is needed by those dealers. Ford really has an opportunity to take Lincoln back to its roots as a serious luxury competitor, and then Mercury will be able to breathe a little and be the near-lux brand it's always needed to be.

Mistsubishi (e.g....Isuzu).....and Mercury (e.g....Plymouth.)

Oh....and throw in Suzuki auto for good measure......

[regfootball]

Actually they are not doing as well as you think.

I worked for Suzuki for like 4 years.....and I guarantee you, you WILL see the automotive division pull out of N.A. It's only a matter of time.

Suzuki had great promise.....and alot of good employees that worked there. BUT, contrary to what you find at companies like Honda, Toyota, etc., (which rely heavily on input from North America) Suzuki was almost arrogant (in a Korean-type way) about it's position in the U.S......blaming the N.A. employees.....insisting that because they are one of the largest auto companies in the world (primarily from it's strength in Japan and India) that they should be as big as Honda or Toyota here. Feedback from the U.S. on product decisions was never heard and/or understood.

Amazing......contrary to their overwhelming success in the motorcycle and ATV divisions......

I still have a few friends inside Suzuki....and they tell me the "new" XL7 is a HUGE disappointment. Also, with the demise of the Korean entries (a huge mistake in my mind to offer those to begin with) they are back down to 3 vehicles......SX4, XL7, and Grand Vitara.....none that are all that competitive in the marketplace.

suzuki's only true suzuki here is the SX4. even their new pickup is stolen.

so yeah, they should go.

at least mits makes the evo.

subaru, toyota, half of honda, kia, hyundai, all can go. mazda and nissan can stay because there is a little product distintineness there. IMHO. because they all sell redundant stuff. blandmobiles. GM get's criticized for having so many brands but the proliferation of all the same bland type of crap cars from japan and korea is the same deal.

With Nissan we get nice trucks like the Xterra. we get a GT-R. we get RWD infinitis and FWD altimas.

BTW, Suzuki's motorcycles and ATV's suck too. Yamaha or Kawasaki anyday for this guy. Or BMW or KTM or Victory or some Harleys even.

[daves87rs]

I'd say Mitsu...because that's the only brand that will logically be axed from the US market.

The rest is just ridiculous BS. Pontiac is the only GM brand in any jeopardy whatsoever, and even it will most likely stay. Just like China justifies Buick, Canada justifies Pontiac. Is Pontiac losing money? I'll bet it provides the bulk of volume for B/P/GMC dealerships.

Now, if PCS is right, and Saturn gets merged into B/GMC, then Pontiac may go the way of the dodo. But until that happens, I just don't see it. G8 should be fairly good, and I still see enough Solstices around to know someone has Pontiac on their radar. The G5 coupes are sharper-looking than their Cobalt siblings, and I see enough of those around LA as well. With a new interior, the G6 could also be a pretty great car; it's the only competitive volume midsized GM coupe, and it also has the convertible. Give it an interior to match the exterior, and it will sell much better.

As for Mercury, in its current interation it really doesn't make much sense. That said, Lincoln is slowly being moved upmarket, and that should give Mercury more room. Mercury also gives volume to Lincoln-Mercury dealerships, so unless Ford re-consolidates its brands, Mercury is needed by those dealers. Ford really has an opportunity to take Lincoln back to its roots as a serious luxury competitor, and then Mercury will be able to breathe a little and be the near-lux brand it's always needed to be.

Volume? Pontiac? Really?

Living in GM land over here, I see quick a it less than I used to. If gas prices keeping jumping, that could be the saving grace for the G6, G5, and the Vibe. I would be surprised If the g8 does not end up as another GTO issue....

Granted, this coming from someone who loves the G8.

[Croc]

I cannot tell if you're agreeing with me or not, but when looking at P/B/GMC...Buick has 2 cars, Pontiac has 6 (Vibe, G8, G6 sedan/coupe/convertible, G5) and GMC has none. Torrent will become a GMC, so GMC is just trucks. Buick has Enclave, hardly a traditional volume product (and it shouldn't be, really...it's a lux crossover). Pontiac sells the bread and butter for that sales channel. And excepting the G6 interior, none of those products suck.

[PurdueGuy]

Some of you seem to have misunderstood this thread. This is not the "what manufacturer/brand do I WISH would go away." It's meant to be a realistic look at brand and manufacturer performance & making a prediction.

[Bimmer325]

Mitsubishi's lineup is becoming increasingly focused, and I'd be sad to see them go at this point. The Lancer and Outlander are what they ought to be (I'd take a Lancer over just about any other offering in the segment), and the Evo is proof of what the brand is capable of. The Lancer Sportback looks great and will add meat to the Lancer line.

Mitsu has a solid design direction going with the Lancer and Outlander, and it's only a matter of time until it permeates the rest of the lineup. The current Galant is nearing the end of its life cycle, and I'm intersted to see what they have in store for the next-generation. As for the Eclipse, I'd like to a next-generation based on the Lancer's platform. A trimmer, more focused coupe with less-goofy styling would shake the "secretary's car" image the Eclipse has picked up. The Concept-RA looks promising in this respect and is likely a good indication of the next Eclipse.

Overall, I'd venture to say that Mitsu's image is more focused than Pontiac's. Aside from the few standouts like the G8, Pontiac's lineup is still composed of cars that are either outclassed (G6) or shamlessly rebadged (G5, Torrent).

[regfootball]

mits needs badly a new galant and endeavor. and a murano competitor.

the eclipse is a neatly unique option for coupes although it may pay off to revert to the last gen eclipse formula next time.

outlander is the funtionally best of the rice cute utes, engine aside. it has a USEFUL cargo area and ginormous seating and is not ugly like the crv and not cheap and tinny like the rav 4 and its not tiny and girlie like the rogue.

honda would rather sell high school boy fart can civics than build something that could take on the evo.

toyota knows they have no cred as a performance car maker so they are too wuss to even try.

it shocks me that subaru has an sti when their bread and butter is estorgen laced stuff like the LL bean cars and stuff.

[A Horse With No Name]

Scion, Suzuki, Mitsu, all will go. Scion may go back into Toyota.

Hyndai, Kia, et. all are here to stay.

VW is a little iffy, but Diesels should help them.

Chris

[daves87rs]

I cannot tell if you're agreeing with me or not, but when looking at P/B/GMC...Buick has 2 cars, Pontiac has 6 (Vibe, G8, G6 sedan/coupe/convertible, G5) and GMC has none. Torrent will become a GMC, so GMC is just trucks. Buick has Enclave, hardly a traditional volume product (and it shouldn't be, really...it's a lux crossover). Pontiac sells the bread and butter for that sales channel. And excepting the G6 interior, none of those products suck.

Yes and no (with agreeing with you)

The good thing is that Pontiac offers well priced cars that are good on gas.

But they offer little else.

Though if the G8 does become a hit (with a play of "muscle"), it could help Pontiac start some kind of image that people can relate to.

Without that- they pretty much have the same image as maybe Kia- just another bland choice at a discount....

[Oracle of Delphi]

Now, if PCS is right, and Saturn gets merged into B/GMC, then Pontiac may go the way of the dodo. But until that happens, I just don't see it.

Hey don't bring me into it, I'm as innocent as fresh fallen snow. :AH-HA_wink:

[daves87rs]

Hey don't bring me into it, I'm as innocent as fresh fallen snow. :AH-HA_wink:

[A Horse With No Name]

Pontiac has way to much heritage to do away with them.

Chris

[Satty]

Pontiac has way to much heritage to do away with them.

Chris

Oldsmobile

Plymouth

AMC

Duesenberg

Bad argument

[PurdueGuy]

Hey don't bring me into it, I'm as innocent as fresh fallen snow. :AH-HA_wink:

Hey, fresh fallen snow is a sneaky bastid. It held off, made everyone think it was becoming spring, and then, just when I leave the hood off my car for the night...

[Robert Hall]

Some of you seem to have misunderstood this thread. This is not the "what manufacturer/brand do I WISH would go away." It's meant to be a realistic look at brand and manufacturer performance & making a prediction.

Many people on this forum are disconnected from reality, so I wouldn't expect realistic responses from many.

[Drew Dowdell]

My mother taught me if you can't say anything nice, not to say anything at all. So I'll keep quiet!

That'd be a first.

[Drew Dowdell]

Honey, honey, honey...

Don't date yourself.....

Somebody has to date him.....

edit: gosh I'm feeling snarky today....

[A Horse With No Name]

Many people on this forum are disconnected from reality, so I wouldn't expect realistic responses from many.

Which is why we have people like enzl, CARBIZ, and the like...to be the C&G reality police.

Seriously, that is what I like about this place. Once someone starts with an irrational line of BS, someone politely calls them on the carpet.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Oldsmobile

Plymouth

AMC

Duesenberg

Bad argument

...wasn't saying it couldn't happen, was saying that it would be a sad day in mudville if it did happen.

IIRC Oldsmobile had one hell of a heritage also.

Chris

[Intrepidation]

Which is why we have people like enzl, CARBIZ, and the like...to be the C&G reality police.

Seriously, that is what I like about this place. Once someone starts with an irrational line of BS, someone politely calls them on the carpet.

Chris

Or not so politely

[VenSeattle]

Which is why we have people like enzl, CARBIZ, and the like...to be the C&G reality police.

Seriously, that is what I like about this place. Once someone starts with an irrational line of BS, someone politely calls them on the carpet.

Chris

We'll see in 5 years which brands have survived the downturn in the US auto industry... I'm standing by mine. I would like Pontiac and Mercury to stick around, but the actions at GM and Ford say otherwise. As for Chrysler... check the news.

Jag & LR? low volume and nothing to really hold them over during the selloff. One new car will not save Jag, and its V8 is hardly competitive. Jag's competition have V6s that are more more powerful for less than $50k.

Mitsubishi... no justification needed... $10 billion borrowed still hasn't given them a completely competitive line-up.

VW & Suzuki... they have a chance. Subaru would be on my list also if Toyota wouldn't have recently invested in them.

BTW, if I recall correctly, one or two of those "reality police" predict GM to be either bankrupt or gone soon (or at least several of GM's brands.)

[Camino LS6]

I think over the next decade, we will see a great many businesses go away - and well beyond automotive brands. The changes are going to stun us.

[Camino LS6]

Just a few observations on what I see as the possibilities for the coming decade:

- There is a very real possibility that both Chrysler and Ford could founder and ultimately fail.

- Toyota may have serious trouble responding to market shifts in a timely fashion given their ponderous size. I see increasing quality and PR problems in their near future.

- The Koreans will pull way back or leave our market entirely.

- Smaller European brands will exit our market.

- GM could potentially be a big winner or a major loser depending on how the cards are played. But this coming decade should decide its fate.

- Nissan will have a rough time of it, and may shrink its US presence.

- Honda will maintain or improve its position.

- The Chinese effort to enter the US market will founder and fail.

EDIT: An Indian concern will penetrate our market - and succeed.

[daves87rs]

I think over the next decade, we will see a great many businesses go away - and well beyond automotive brands. The changes are going to stun us.

Yep.

Circuit City

Old Navy

Gateway

Sears

Hardees

Nextel

K mart

Linens and Things

Reebok

These are just a few that I think will be gone in a matter of a few years....

[daves87rs]

Just a few observations on what I see as the possibilities for the coming decade:

- There is a very real possibility that both Chrysler and Ford could founder and ultimately fail.

- Toyota may have serious trouble responding to market shifts in a timely fashion given their ponderous size. I see increasing quality and PR problems in their near future.

- The Koreans will pull way back or leave our market entirely.

- Smaller European brands will exit our market.

- GM could potentially be a big winner or a major loser depending on how the cards are played. But this coming decade should decide its fate.

- Nissan will have a rough time of it, and may shrink its US presence.

- Honda will maintain or improve its position.

- The Chinese effort to enter the US market will founder and fail.

EDIT: An Indian concern will penetrate our market - and succeed.

I could agree with some of that....though:

Ford may hang on

If the Koreans keep the prices low, they have a good chance in increasing market share...

[PurdueGuy]

I could see Ford going through a bankruptcy. I don't think they'll disappear. I could see a Ford brand or two disappearing in the next ten years, though.

[Drew Dowdell]

Maybach..... not that anyone cares.

[Lamar]

Hardees

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robert Hall]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They've been gone around here since around '99 when Carl's Jr bought them out.