GM to Make Major Technology Announcement

[cmattson]

Noticed that Ford and Toyota have both posted their Feb sales numbers (both down, btw), so I thought I'd browse out to media.gm.com and see if GM had posted their sales numbers yet (they haven't).

Did see a post titled: "GM To Make Major Technology Announcement At Geneva Motor Show"

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...amp;docid=43974

Details are skimpy:

At this year’s Geneva Motor Show, GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner will make a major announcement regarding hybrid technology. Media are invited to view the event via webcast.

WHEN:

Tuesday, March 4, 2008, 8:45 a.m. EST/2:45 p.m. CET

WHERE:

GM press conference during Geneva Motor Show

View the webcast at http://media.gm.com

WHO:

GM-Europe President Carl-Peter Forster will join GM CEO Rick Wagoner in making the announcement

Anybody care to speculate?

[Newbiewar]

ummm either something about the volt, battery technology...

a new hybrid? E100 hybird

gas-hybrid-hytrogen combo?

probably has something to do with silverado or malibu hybrid...

[Derek77]

It's got to be the next-gen BAS hybrid.

[pow]

Every GM vehicle comes standard with a start/stop BAS system? FlexFuel capability on every GM vehicle?

[ocnblu]

Carl-Peter Forster is resigning his post, effective immediately?

[Oracle of Delphi]

All Your Base Are Belong To Us!

[ocnblu]

EVERYBODY RUUNNN!!!!!

[91z4me]

Every GM vehicle comes standard with a start/stop BAS system?

That would be a MAJOR announcement. Then every GM car would be a hybrid and GM could very quickly take the prize as the hybrid sales leader from Toyota.

[cmattson]

The more I dig around, the more I believe it's their BAS+ (BAS-II) system. A std hybrid-for-all announcement would rock. It would be a total public perception/relations coup, it would help GM reach the more stringent CAFE numbers to boot. And something like that would drive costs down across the board.

[loki]

the next move for a V6.... (dreaming)

Camaro engine?

the 1.4L turbo progress for the US?

dedicated E85 engine?

[regfootball]

cmattson where you been?

blu, i think CARLPETER is going to announce death of all zeta cars globe wide! as penance we will all be offered overstock detuned 9-3's with cloth seats and cupholder delete!!!!!!!!!!

BAS2 will rock!

perhaps the new 9-1 or all the next gen deltas will get it standard?

Edited March 4, 2008 by regfootball

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That all cars will be soulless electric appliances within 15 years!!!???

Yay!

[loki]

EPII is being replaced by W. LOL ZETA is being replaced by H.

Delta is being replace by N.

the Chevette is coming back on shortened Sigma.

Death of the V8.

gonna say F-U to CAFE.

serious

An 8 speed 4mode for Cadi.

SMG trannies

6speeds, everywhere not 2 mode hybrid, by 2010

something from the A-B segment trio from NY.

a ~1.5L diesel for delta/gamma

[Drew Dowdell]

I might be new here, but what the hell is BAS-II?

[Robert Hall]

I might be new here, but what the hell is BAS-II?

I have no idea..must be yet another secret insider code that some people like throwing around.

[91z4me]

I might be new here, but what the hell is BAS-II?

A second generation/more advanced version of the Belt Alternator Starter system used in the 'mild hybrid' old Vue Greenline, Aura Greenline, and Malibu Hybrid.

[Robert Hall]

A second generation/more advanced version of the Belt Alternator Starter system used in the 'mild hybrid' old Vue Greenline, Aura Greenline, and Malibu Hybrid.

Ah...cool. We need a glossary for all the TLAs around here.

[cmattson]

Where have I been? Just hang'n out, acting cool (it's not working, is it?). Actually, I've been busy at work for the most part. I'm still a hyper-enthusiast, browsing various auto sites multiple times/day -- I just haven't been posting as much. Anyways, here's a snippet from a wsj article dated Mar. 1 of this year:

Next week General Motors Corp. is expected to claim an advance of its own at the Geneva auto show when it announces it plans to use lithium ion batteries to upgrade the hybrid powertrains it offers in vehicles such as its Chevrolet Malibu and Saturn Aura models, according to people familiar with the company's plans

Full article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1204330528...=googlenews_wsj

[!!!TED!!!]

New Lithium battery from Hitachi...the conference is happening right now...

There is a car under wraps on stage too!

Carl-Peter is talking right now...

http://www.gmeurope.tv/webcast/index.php?a...erence_Geneva08

[Derek77]

I win!! I win!!!!!

3x more powerful electric motor. More launch power and more electric power during the driving cycle. 20% better fuel economy based on what motor it is mated with.

[!!!TED!!!]

Oh cool, they just pulled the covers of the Meriva concept.

It looks great!

[Derek77]

Next-Generation GM Hybrid System Announced in Geneva

High-volume system will debut in North America in 2010, and then expand globally
Hitachi to supply new lithium-ion battery
Cost-effective technology to improve fuel economy by up to 20 percent

GENEVA - As another key element in its overall global strategy to improve fuel economy and reduce oil consumption and CO2 emissions, General Motors Chairman Rick Wagoner announced today that GM will introduce a second-generation version of the GM Hybrid System with a new, more powerful lithium-ion battery.

Hitachi Vehicle Energy Ltd., a subsidiary of Tokyo-based Hitachi Ltd., will supply an advanced lithium-ion battery, which will help make the next-generation GM Hybrid System nearly three times more powerful than the system it replaces. Overall fuel economy improvements for cars and trucks using the system are expected to be up to 20 percent, depending on engine and vehicle application.

"This new system is another important step in our broad-based strategy to reduce vehicle fuel consumption and emissions," Wagoner said at the 78th International Geneva Motor Show.

The next-generation GM Hybrid System will build upon the successful belt-alternator-starter hybrid technology currently available in the Saturn Vue, Saturn Aura and Chevrolet Malibu. By building on this proven technology, Wagoner said, GM will be able to make the GM Hybrid System more cost-effective and expand its application in GM's global vehicle portfolio.

"In order to have a real impact in reducing oil consumption, oil imports, and CO2 emissions, advanced technologies must be affordable enough to drive high-volume applications," he said. "We plan to roll out this next-generation hybrid technology globally, across our brands and regions, starting in 2010 in North America, and we expect that volumes will eventually exceed 100,000 units annually."

The next-generation GM Hybrid System will complement GM's widely acclaimed Two-Mode Hybrid system as part of the company's advanced powertrain portfolio. The Two-Mode Hybrid system debuted in 2007 in the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon, and will be offered this year in the Cadillac Escalade full-size SUV and the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra full-size pickups. The first front-wheel-drive application of the Two-Mode Hybrid system will debut in the 2009 Saturn Vue Green Line.

The increased power from the lithium-ion battery will allow the next-generation GM Hybrid System to be used in a wide range of global powertrains, including naturally aspirated engines, new high-efficiency turbocharged engines, bio-fuel engines and diesels.

This technology is showcased in the Saab 9-X BioPower Hybrid concept car, which debuted today at the Geneva Motor Show. The Saab concept is capable of 117 g CO2/km, or projected fuel consumption of just 4.9 l/100 km (48 mpg) when running on gasoline over the combined cycle.

The next-generation GM Hybrid System helps optimize fuel efficiency and reduce emissions by:

Turning the engine off at idle
Offering brief electric-only propulsion
Using a more powerful electric motor to enhance engine efficiency
Extending fuel cutoff during deceleration
Extending regenerative braking to recapture more energy
Performing intelligent hybrid battery charging
For additional energy savings, an advanced six-speed automatic transmission also may be used, depending on the vehicle application.

The current GM Hybrid System was introduced in 2006 on the Saturn Vue Green Line SUV, which remains the lowest-priced hybrid SUV in the U.S., starting at a $25,995 MSRP. Shanghai GM announced in January that the Buick LaCrosse Eco-Hybrid sedan will be the first application for the current GM Hybrid System in Asia-Pacific.

By the end of 2008, GM will offer eight hybrid models in North America and nine worldwide. GM will introduce 16 new hybrid vehicles over the next four years.

[NOS2006]

"In order to have a real impact in reducing oil consumption, oil imports, and CO2 emissions, advanced technologies must be affordable enough to drive high-volume applications," he said. "We plan to roll out this next-generation hybrid technology globally, across our brands and regions, starting in 2010 in North America, and we expect that volumes will eventually exceed 100,000 units annually."

The increased power from the lithium-ion battery will allow the next-generation GM Hybrid System to be used in a wide range of global powertrains, including naturally aspirated engines, new high-efficiency turbocharged engines, bio-fuel engines and diesels.

By the end of 2008, GM will offer eight hybrid models in North America and nine worldwide. GM will introduce 16 new hybrid vehicles over the next four years.

Very cool!

[Drew Dowdell]

From the graphics I've seen but dunno if I can post,

the Turbo 2.4 Hybrid that comes from this has more torque across the entire band than the 3.6VVT... but especially at the low end.

Torque jumps nearly 100ft/lbs at 1,200rpm over the non-hybrid Turbo 2.4!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

GM, make mine an E85 2.8 litre V6 turbo VVT with DI and BAS-II..... k? thnx, bye.

oh yeah, and you could soooo run a base Zeta sedan with one of these 4-cylinders.....

[Robert Hall]

Sounds promising.

[loki]

From the graphics I've seen but dunno if I can post,

the Turbo 2.4 Hybrid that comes from this has more torque across the entire band than the 3.6VVT... but especially at the low end.

Torque jumps nearly 100ft/lbs at 1,200rpm over the non-hybrid Turbo 2.4!!!

link at least?

[AAS]

So, is this like BAS but waaaay better? Or an improvement on dual-mode? If dual-mode is better then BAS, why not stick with that?

[Drew Dowdell]

link at least?

Autoblog link

[Drew Dowdell]

So, is this like BAS but waaaay better? Or an improvement on dual-mode? If dual-mode is better then BAS, why not stick with that?

Dual mode is much more expensive and is not as "universal".

[loki]

Autoblog link

love that chopped on BAS! LOL

i think people would live with a ~5500 redline for that kind of power/economy.... with a 6 speed of course.

2 more years to wait though?!

hopefully in 2 years the 2.4L could be making at least 190hp by itself.

20% better.... something like 28/34 sound right for a malibu use?

[Drew Dowdell]

20% better.... something like 28/34 sound right for a malibu use?

28/34 would be where the Vue ends up, I would expect Malibu to be better.

[loki]

28/34 would be where the Vue ends up, I would expect Malibu to be better.

is it supposed to be 20% better than the hybrid BAS performance now?

[Drew Dowdell]

is it supposed to be 20% better than the hybrid BAS performance now?

not sure...but 28/34 is just 2-3 more mpg than the 25/32 the Vue Greenline is rated at now.... that is a lot less than 20% improvement.

[Derek77]

is it supposed to be 20% better than the hybrid BAS performance now?

Until GM says for certain, I for one, will believe it is a 20% improvement over a non-hybrid. I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. I always like to low ball, and then be shocked when something is better. Dumb, I know.

[Robert Hall]

Until GM says for certain, I for one, will believe it is a 20% improvement over a non-hybrid. I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. I always like to low ball, and then be shocked when something is better. Dumb, I know.

Nothing wrong with looking at things like that..with work, I set my expectations extremely low, so if something meaningful really happens, them I'm pleasantly surprised..

[pow]

Sweeeet. This is arguably more significant than the dual-modes or Volt, if it can be produced in great numbers.

[Z-06]

Will it have manual transmission?

Umm probably not.

[PurdueGuy]

Will it have manual transmission?

Umm probably not.

pretty much guaranteed not. lol Shame, cuz I <3 manual trannys. Drove a "manumatic" (or whatever GM's term for it is) Pontiac G6 this weekend. I suppose if I had to drive an automatic, it'd be an ok feature, but it is nowhere near a substitute for a real manual transmission.

[GXT]

What is interesting is that this will be available 2010 yet uses a completely different battery/supplier than the Volt... even though GM indicates they have examples of the Volt's batteries and they are exceeding expectations and the Volt is supposed to be released 2010. You'd think they would want to use similar batteries.

The current non-hybrid aura gets 22MPG, the hybrid 24MPG, so this nex gen should get just under 26MPG. Still not really competitive with what has been available for years now. For comparison, even today's Escape hybrid gets 34MPG.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

The current non-hybrid aura gets 22MPG, the hybrid 24MPG, so this nex gen should get just under 26MPG. Still not really competitive with what has been available for years now. For comparison, even today's Escape hybrid gets 34MPG.

The point is you can get this "hybrid" system for like 1k over normal rather than 3-4k

[Drew Dowdell]

What is interesting is that this will be available 2010 yet uses a completely different battery/supplier than the Volt... even though GM indicates they have examples of the Volt's batteries and they are exceeding expectations and the Volt is supposed to be released 2010. You'd think they would want to use similar batteries.

If Technology$ = "untried" then

Copy C:\Yolk1.egg C:\Basket1\;

Copy C:\Yolk2.egg C:\Basket2\;

Copy C:\Yolk3.egg C:\Basket3\;

Else

Move C:\*.egg C:\Basket1\;

End if;

[PurdueGuy]

The current non-hybrid aura gets 22MPG, the hybrid 24MPG, so this nex gen should get just under 26MPG. Still not really competitive with what has been available for years now. For comparison, even today's Escape hybrid gets 34MPG.

How do you define competitive? Ultimate mpgs? That's a PR game. A system that pays for itself is true competitiveness, and the current BAS system has come closest to paying for itself within a reasonable lifespan of any of the hybrid systems I've done break-even analysis on. IMO, this system may be more important to GM than either of the other systems, that while more technologically advanced and more potent in delivering high mpgs, are so expensive that GM has to either sell them in very small quantities, or give the system away at a loss.

[GXT]

How do you define competitive? Ultimate mpgs? That's a PR game. A system that pays for itself is true competitiveness, and the current BAS system has come closest to paying for itself within a reasonable lifespan of any of the hybrid systems I've done break-even analysis on. IMO, this system may be more important to GM than either of the other systems, that while more technologically advanced and more potent in delivering high mpgs, are so expensive that GM has to either sell them in very small quantities, or give the system away at a loss.

I think systems that have the "ultimate MPG" and pay for themselves are worthy goals. The BAS system that GM offers today is neither. It offers tiny fuel economy gains and doesn't pay for itself. The next version may be mildly better, but the current is a complete and total disaster.

Take the Aura. The hybrid carries a $2395 premium. For that you get a minor 2MPG or 10% better fuel economy. I don't know what analysis you have done, but at 12,000 miles per year and $3/gallon gas the hybrid aura will save you $163/year and therefore take just under 15 years to break even. As the battery probably won't last that long, you will never break even.

If ultimate MPG is your aim, the Prius is under 22K and you can expect 45MPG. (Compare to the Aura hybrid at $22,790 and 24MPG.)

Even the Camry Hybrid, which has a premium of 5,600 over the non-hybrid (but you also get thousands in extra features such as Vehicle Stability Control, Push Button Start, Remote Keyless Entry, Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel and Shift Knob, Power Seat, etc.) gets 33MPG vs 21 for the non-hybrid. At the same 12,000 miles per year, $3/gallon gas you will save $623/year and break even in 9 years.

Based on the Aura and the Camry, it would appear that Toyota's system offers a 500% greater increase in fuel economy compared to the GM system and a ~40% sooner breakeven point.

[91z4me]

I think systems that have the "ultimate MPG" and pay for themselves are worthy goals. The BAS system that GM offers today is neither. It offers tiny fuel economy gains and doesn't pay for itself. The next version may be mildly better, but the current is a complete and total disaster.

Take the Aura. The hybrid carries a $2395 premium. For that you get a minor 2MPG or 10% better fuel economy. I don't know what analysis you have done, but at 12,000 miles per year and $3/gallon gas the hybrid aura will save you $163/year and therefore take just under 15 years to break even. As the battery probably won't last that long, you will never break even.

If ultimate MPG is your aim, the Prius is under 22K and you can expect 45MPG. (Compare to the Aura hybrid at $22,790 and 24MPG.)

Even the Camry Hybrid, which has a premium of 5,600 over the non-hybrid (but you also get thousands in extra features such as Vehicle Stability Control, Push Button Start, Remote Keyless Entry, Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel and Shift Knob, Power Seat, etc.) gets 33MPG vs 21 for the non-hybrid. At the same 12,000 miles per year, $3/gallon gas you will save $623/year and break even in 9 years.

Based on the Aura and the Camry, it would appear that Toyota's system offers a 500% greater increase in fuel economy compared to the GM system and a ~40% sooner breakeven point.

Did you include the hybrid tax credits on either one of those? I think the Prius is ineligible for those but both the Aura GL and Camry Hybrid are eligible ($2000 IIRC).

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

You guys are making a mistake, if you are basing your calculations on $3 a gallon. Try $5 a gallon. GM is about right with their 2-mode introduction: that will help Tahoe sales from tanking. When OPEC goes off the U.S dollar and if one more South American dictator rattles his sabre, we will see $150 a barrel. Hybrids make so much more sense at $4.50+ a gallon.

In fact, the Smart Car might even start to look good...............

[91z4me]

You guys are making a mistake, if you are basing your calculations on $3 a gallon. Try $5 a gallon. GM is about right with their 2-mode introduction: that will help Tahoe sales from tanking. When OPEC goes off the U.S dollar and if one more South American dictator rattles his sabre, we will see $150 a barrel. Hybrids make so much more sense at $4.50+ a gallon.

In fact, the Smart Car might even start to look good...............

The only way a Smart car looks good is w/ a hyabusa engine swap. It is a supersized gocart once that is done.

[PurdueGuy]

I think systems that have the "ultimate MPG" and pay for themselves are worthy goals. The BAS system that GM offers today is neither. It offers tiny fuel economy gains and doesn't pay for itself. The next version may be mildly better, but the current is a complete and total disaster.

Take the Aura. The hybrid carries a $2395 premium. For that you get a minor 2MPG or 10% better fuel economy. I don't know what analysis you have done, but at 12,000 miles per year and $3/gallon gas the hybrid aura will save you $163/year and therefore take just under 15 years to break even. As the battery probably won't last that long, you will never break even.

If ultimate MPG is your aim, the Prius is under 22K and you can expect 45MPG. (Compare to the Aura hybrid at $22,790 and 24MPG.)

Even the Camry Hybrid, which has a premium of 5,600 over the non-hybrid (but you also get thousands in extra features such as Vehicle Stability Control, Push Button Start, Remote Keyless Entry, Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel and Shift Knob, Power Seat, etc.) gets 33MPG vs 21 for the non-hybrid. At the same 12,000 miles per year, $3/gallon gas you will save $623/year and break even in 9 years.

Based on the Aura and the Camry, it would appear that Toyota's system offers a 500% greater increase in fuel economy compared to the GM system and a ~40% sooner breakeven point.

I did the analysis when the Vue GL was first coming out, and did a table for multiple fuel and hybrid system prices:

Looking at the '08 Vue vs Vue GL, the difference is around 6mpg, which is better than in the chart above, plus fuel prices could easily push beyond 3.50 in the next few years (I refuse to freak out like some & start yelling "$5 gas by summar!!! OH NOES!!!") I don't know what the problem is with the Aura's system that it doesn't give similar gains, GM definitely needs to figure something out there. Overall, it is absolute GENIUS for GM to have an affordable hybrid system, and continue to make it more so. You may resume your regularly scheduled pessimism.

Edited March 8, 2008 by PurdueGuy

[turbo200]

without reading the comments in this thread, my question which may have already been asked is this : is this GM merely catching up. Prius has already offered 50 mpg for 4 years, and GM is nowhere near that. The next Prius will almost certainly improve on this. Where is GM? Behind as usual.

[Blake Noble]

without reading the comments in this thread, my question which may have already been asked is this : is this GM merely catching up. Prius has already offered 50 mpg for 4 years, and GM is nowhere near that. The next Prius will almost certainly improve on this. Where is GM? Behind as usual.

A Prius, if you actually drive it as opposed to just puttering around, doesn't achieve anywhere near 50 mpg. A European compact car with a diesel could put it to great shame.