BMW may sell engines and transmissions to GM and Fiat

[Intrepidation]

From AutoBlog

Word out of Frankfurt from the Financial Times Deutschland is that BMW is in talks to sell engines and transmissions to both General Motors and Fiat. All three companies have declined to officially comment.

The news is interesting, but not surprising. You may recall that GM has been selling transmissions to BMW for well over a decade for use in various 3 Series and 5 Series models (the current BMW 328i automatic uses a 6-speed GM 6L45 unit). So far, however, all have been automatic transmissions.

Speculating about the details, our tipster suggests that BMW may be helping GM with their SMG-style transmission program. As for the engines? It is possible that BMW could be selling its 4.4L V8 for the Cadillac line or lending GM a twin-turbo to compete with Ford's twin-turbo direct-injected V6? Thanks for the tip Brad!

[Robert Hall]

WOW

[Intrepidation]

I think it's an interesting idea. It would give GM an alternative to the aging NorthStar line for the Cadillac lineup. Maybe BMW could provide some manual transmissions too.

[PONTIAC06]

I guess I was never aware that BMW used GM's automatic transmissions...this could be very interesting indeed.

[Z-06]

What would the BMW humper in our community say about this news?

The cooperation between BMW and GM runs deeper than what is perceived. I think it is a powerhouse news. Get some of the manual trannies here.

[Robert Hall]

Throw some BMW turbo 3.0 liters in Pontiacs and I'll be on the lot in a heartbeat.

Oooohhhh yeah.... BMW has for a long time built the best 6s, IMHO...love 'em.

[VenSeattle]

Well, if this is correct, we now know what's going into the two Zetas coming out of LGR... Nice!

[Z-06]

Which makes me thing the eight speed might be developed by both GM and BMW at the same time.

Didn't GM issue name for "Eight" last fall?

Pontiac poor man's BMW. At least we know the application won't be FWD to appease CPF.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think I just heard SMK's head explode.

If this story is true, every post he's made that isn't logically inconsistent (not many) has been made moot.

* dreams of an 8 cylinder 8 speed oldsmobile......I shall call her Eighty Eight *

[Intrepidation]

* dreams of an 8 cylinder 8 speed oldsmobile......I shall call her Eighty Eight *

[loki]

I think I just heard SMK's head explode.

If this story is true, every post he's made that isn't logically inconsistent (not many) has been made moot.

* dreams of an 8 cylinder 8 speed oldsmobile......I shall call her Eighty Eight *

or a 4.4L twin turbo 442? hahahaahahahhaha

[The O.C.]

I guess I was never aware that BMW used GM's automatic transmissions...this could be very interesting indeed.

They did. I'm not sure if they still use any now, but I know our '05 X5 V8 used a GM 5-speed auto. The revised '06 X5 V8, however, replaced that with a BMW 6-speed auto.

[Z-06]

They did. I'm not sure if they still use any now, but I know our '05 X5 V8 used a GM 5-speed auto. The revised '06 X5 V8, however, replaced that with a BMW 6-speed auto.

3 er and 5 er still do.

[The O.C.]

3 er and 5 er still do.

I don't think so.

3er and 5er have moved to the 6-speed auto, I believe a ZF unit.

[Intrepidation]

I don't think so.

3er and 5er have moved to the 6-speed auto, I believe a ZF unit.

The news is interesting, but not surprising. You may recall that GM has been selling transmissions to BMW for well over a decade for use in various 3 Series and 5 Series models (the current BMW 328i automatic uses a 6-speed GM 6L45 unit). So far, however, all have been automatic transmissions.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Dodgefan

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

BMW was using GM 5 speed autos before GM even had them in their own cars... Another lame mistake by GM.

I certainly hope Cadillac isn't getting BMW components. I don't see how that would help CAFE any and it would be a HUGE cop out on the part of GM.

I dunno, I'm not a fan of BMW powertrains in any GM vehicle. It just seems like a huge sell out to benchmark BMW for Cadillac and Pontiac only to then steal their technology. That sounds like something Toyota would do, you know, like they're doing with Ford's heavy duty diesel technology.

[VenSeattle]

BMW was using GM 5 speed autos before GM even had them in their own cars... Another lame mistake by GM.

I certainly hope Cadillac isn't getting BMW components. I don't see how that would help CAFE any and it would be a HUGE cop out on the part of GM.

I dunno, I'm not a fan of BMW powertrains in any GM vehicle. It just seems like a huge sell out to benchmark BMW for Cadillac and Pontiac only to then steal their technology. That sounds like something Toyota would do, you know, like they're doing with Ford's heavy duty diesel technology.

Since GM is working with BMW to develop Hybrid and Hydrogen friendly powertrains, consolidating to common powertrains between the manufacturers would be optimal.

[hyperv6]

BMW was using GM 5 speed autos before GM even had them in their own cars... Another lame mistake by GM.

I certainly hope Cadillac isn't getting BMW components. I don't see how that would help CAFE any and it would be a HUGE cop out on the part of GM.

I dunno, I'm not a fan of BMW powertrains in any GM vehicle. It just seems like a huge sell out to benchmark BMW for Cadillac and Pontiac only to then steal their technology. That sounds like something Toyota would do, you know, like they're doing with Ford's heavy duty diesel technology.

The 5 speed auto's was one of GM's greatest moves of all time.

GM was contracted by BMW to build the 5 speed tranny for them and BMW payed for the development. GM agreed to do it as long as they could use it too. BMW agreed as just wanting an exclusive for if I recall 2 years and then GM was free to use it. They then had a 5 speed they did not have to pay to develope for the then new CTS.

Then when it appeared in the CTS the magazines mentioned it had the same tranny that BMW used. Not a bad thing to say in this market if your wanting to break into it.

I too am not a big BMW fan as I had too work on too many of them in the past. But this will help GM in credibility in the market with those who would have never consider a american car let alone a GM car.

People are sheep and many love BMW. So if they think GM has a little BMW DNA it won't hurt anyting.

Besides BMW wants to stay independent. The ony way they will is to have a dance partner with a larger corperation. GM can be that dance partner. GM can get some headlines and shared development cost so it is a win win deal.

Just keep that damn I Drive out of the GM cars.

[Nick]

They did. I'm not sure if they still use any now, but I know our '05 X5 V8 used a GM 5-speed auto. The revised '06 X5 V8, however, replaced that with a BMW 6-speed auto.

Pretty sure if you had the 4.4 you had the 6-speed auto as well.

BMW did utilize GM's 5-speed auto for quite some time. Quite prominent in the e39's...also known for quite a bit of problems...Gear slippage issues, not engaging properly, and of course, complete failure. I'd attribute most of that to BMW's "lifetime fluid" bull$h! though. A lot of guys have the transmission on the original fluid well into the hundred thousands and have a perfect tranny, some have problems and wonder why, some people replace the fluid and everything works fine, some replace the fluid and still experience some issues...I've found those transmissions can be hit or miss...

Luckily my getrag 6-speed has given me little problems...not as perfect as it could be, but then, it isn't that great of a tranny anyway...and it's modular, so repairing it is impossible. Filled it up with some redline fluid a few thousand ago, installed some upgraded tranny mounts and enforcers, and threw in an upgraded $h! kit and selector rod. It functions ok all in all.

BMW trannys have never been all that great in my opinion...

Their engines on the other hand...best mass produced 6 cylinders ever made. Their 8's are ok...but then, they haven't been in the 8 game that long. Personally, I feel the M60/M62 was the best series of V8's from BMW, and oddly enough, they were basically BMW's first attempt at an 8 more or less. It might seem like I am biased being that I have a 540 with an M62, but the feel of the engine and the way it delivers power is much like that of a OHV V8 in a way. It even made more torque than hp (stock, my engine runs around 282hp and 324ft/lb)...

Their newer V8's are...ok...Sure, they make more power and are more efficient with all their valvetronic shenanigans and whatnot, but when I drive my mom's X5 (with the N62B44 as compared to my M62B44tu) it just doesn't feel the same...Sure, they are different vehicles with different transmissions, but you just don't really feel all the power in the X5 (even though there is more)...you don't hear it either which is annoying...too much sound tuning...

Favorite V8 is still the S62 e39 M5 engine. I'd take it over the S85 based V8 any day (or even the S85 for that matter...I truly do not like that engine....)

[Polish_Kris]

I guess I was never aware that BMW used GM's automatic transmissions...this could be very interesting indeed.

Opel-built transmissions were used in the 90's BMWs I remember.

[balthazar]

GM transmissions have probably been used in more makes/models over more years than from any other source.

[The O.C.]

Pretty sure if you had the 4.4 you had the 6-speed auto as well.

BMW did utilize GM's 5-speed auto for quite some time. Quite prominent in the e39's...also known for quite a bit of problems...Gear slippage issues, not engaging properly, and of course, complete failure. I'd attribute most of that to BMW's "lifetime fluid" bull$h! though. A lot of guys have the transmission on the original fluid well into the hundred thousands and have a perfect tranny, some have problems and wonder why, some people replace the fluid and everything works fine, some replace the fluid and still experience some issues...I've found those transmissions can be hit or miss...

Luckily my getrag 6-speed has given me little problems...not as perfect as it could be, but then, it isn't that great of a tranny anyway...and it's modular, so repairing it is impossible. Filled it up with some redline fluid a few thousand ago, installed some upgraded tranny mounts and enforcers, and threw in an upgraded $h! kit and selector rod. It functions ok all in all.

BMW trannys have never been all that great in my opinion...

Their engines on the other hand...best mass produced 6 cylinders ever made. Their 8's are ok...but then, they haven't been in the 8 game that long. Personally, I feel the M60/M62 was the best series of V8's from BMW, and oddly enough, they were basically BMW's first attempt at an 8 more or less. It might seem like I am biased being that I have a 540 with an M62, but the feel of the engine and the way it delivers power is much like that of a OHV V8 in a way. It even made more torque than hp (stock, my engine runs around 282hp and 324ft/lb)...

Their newer V8's are...ok...Sure, they make more power and are more efficient with all their valvetronic shenanigans and whatnot, but when I drive my mom's X5 (with the N62B44 as compared to my M62B44tu) it just doesn't feel the same...Sure, they are different vehicles with different transmissions, but you just don't really feel all the power in the X5 (even though there is more)...you don't hear it either which is annoying...too much sound tuning...

Favorite V8 is still the S62 e39 M5 engine. I'd take it over the S85 based V8 any day (or even the S85 for that matter...I truly do not like that engine....)

Well, I'm PRETTY sure the '05 had the GM 5-speed and the '06 had the (ZF I believe?) 6-speed. Reason is.....we got the same X5s down to equipment and color and I remember us trying to figure out what had changed between the two years.....and one was the silver "rings" around the gauges....and another, I think, was the tranny gaining a gear. That was it for the differences....

Maybe I'm wrong though....

But in any event, never had ANY problems with trannies.....(granted we didn't keep them like 100K miles or anything) and in fact I LOVED the 6-speed in the '06. I loved the way it shifted, loved the way it performed in "Sport" and manual mode, and especially loved how adept it was during trailer-towing our two seadoos out to The River.

I've always been a HUGE fan of BMW engines as well.....of any sort. Loved the V8 in the X5s, and loved the I6s I had in the 330s. To me, they've been the smoothest, best-performing engines of their kind. The 225hp 3.0L always felt like it had WAY more power than quoted and the smallish 4.4L V8 never felt like it was lacking in torque.....even in the heavy X5.

As far as problems, I/we've had five different BMWs (two X5s, 330Ci coupe, 330Ci convertible, last-gen 530i) over the last, oh, 4 years between the two of us and never have had any problems with any of them of any significance that I can remember. GRANTED we didn't put that many miles on them......maybe 20K each.....although the 530i had miles on it 'cause it was used.....I think 60K miles....but never had problems with that car either.

So I can't comment on long-term reliability......but if you are in the new-car market, and you lease, BMWs are AWESOME because the warranty AND all scheduled maintenance is covered cost-free for 4/50K.....and usually leases certainly don't run past that. (edit: Just took the A4 in for the 21K-mile service.....the dealership quoted me $388....!!!! I was pissed. I told them only to do the L.O.F. and forget all the "diagnostic checks" and $h! they were going to do. If it had been a BMW, I wouldn't have cared....I'd have had them do it all.....'cause it's free of charge.)

Edited March 1, 2008 by The O.C.

[hyperv6]

GM transmissions have probably been used in more makes/models over more years than from any other source.

Yep, Jag, Rolls, Bently, Ferrari and more. Also Harrison AC and Saginaw power steering had been used in many other lines.

[pow]

I don't think so.

3er and 5er have moved to the 6-speed auto, I believe a ZF unit.

The 328i uses a GM unit... the 335i uses a ZF unit (rev matches, paddles, quicker shifts).

[Nick]

Well, I'm PRETTY sure the '05 had the GM 5-speed and the '06 had the (ZF I believe?) 6-speed. Reason is.....we got the same X5s down to equipment and color and I remember us trying to figure out what had changed between the two years.....and one was the silver "rings" around the gauges....and another, I think, was the tranny gaining a gear. That was it for the differences....

Maybe I'm wrong though....

Well, you've got me doing research now because my mom's 05 4.4 has the 6-speed. I found some on ebay that claimed they had the 5-speed (could've been a typo)...I know the 6-cylinders came with the 5-speed, but in the 2004 MCE the V8's got the 6-speed. I can't imagine the 5-speed was standard and 6 was an option...could be a mid model year change I suppose...

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ahhhh, my two favorite car companies, working together again, I'm in heaven.

[turbo200]

time to theorize....going on the "deep waters" thought...BMW needs a manufacturer to be tied to so they can continue to sell cars in America, or they're going to have to do serious reductions in power, engine size, and sales of true luxury cars, i.e. cars other than 3-series.

BMW is going to buy a major stake in GM, and GM vice-versa, basically calling it a merger to the press and for the sake of CAFE. BMW, however, remains a seperate entity, independant company, as does GM, with major technology sharing in the form of engines, suspension components, design houses even...

How cool would that be? it'd be awesome, imo. Possible? not likely, but it's always nice to theorize at someone with a much better control and understanding of the European market to come in and take precedence over the incompetent heads at GME that can only figure out how to control 10% of the market with volume prices and 5 brands.

[daves87rs]

time to theorize....going on the "deep waters" thought...BMW needs a manufacturer to be tied to so they can continue to sell cars in America, or they're going to have to do serious reductions in power, engine size, and sales of true luxury cars, i.e. cars other than 3-series.

BMW is going to buy a major stake in GM, and GM vice-versa, basically calling it a merger to the press and for the sake of CAFE. BMW, however, remains a seperate entity, independant company, as does GM, with major technology sharing in the form of engines, suspension components, design houses even...

How cool would that be? it'd be awesome, imo. Possible? not likely, but it's always nice to theorize at someone with a much better control and understanding of the European market to come in and take precedence over the incompetent heads at GME that can only figure out how to control 10% of the market with volume prices and 5 brands.

That would be interesting, that's for sure...

[daves87rs]

Ahhhh, my two favorite car companies, working together again, I'm in heaven.

[The O.C.]

Well, you've got me doing research now because my mom's 05 4.4 has the 6-speed. I found some on ebay that claimed they had the 5-speed (could've been a typo)...I know the 6-cylinders came with the 5-speed, but in the 2004 MCE the V8's got the 6-speed. I can't imagine the 5-speed was standard and 6 was an option...could be a mid model year change I suppose...

Hell I don't know....maybe they both had a 6-speed.....but damn it seems like I remember going from a 5-speed to a 6-speed......oh well......

[The O.C.]

That would be interesting, that's for sure...

Problem is....I can never see the Quandt family (if that's how you spell it) letting that happen.

[CMG]

After being stranded on a bridge in rush hour for two hours explaining to the owner what an "interference engine" was because her 5 series packed it in, and being stranded in a 3 series BMW with 1200kms on the speedo, I say NO THANKS! I would rather stick to the GM engines in the GM vehicles.

We tried fixing the 5 series ourselves, until we found the little BMW balancer bolt "torque trick", which requires a special tool to remove the balancer, and you can't rent them, the dealership won't lend them out... you gotta pay the devil to get the bolt out (take it to the dealership and learn what BMW shop rates are!)

LS engines sure, keep the BMW engines in the BMWs for me!

:AH-HA_wink:

[smk4565]

I would have rather seen GM make their own engines to rival BMW, giving in and buying theirs is admitting defeat in a way. But since they canceled the Ultra program and the 3.6 V6 isn't as good as BMW's turbo-6, I am fine with them putting BMW engines in a Cadillac. I am for any plan that makes Cadillacs better.

I am sure on BMW's end they'll mark the price up for their engines, so I wonder if that will make it more expensive for GM to buy BMW's engine rather than use their own. BMW could end up making $500 worth of profit on every Cadillac sold, which isn't a bad deal for them.

The BMW TT V8 makes more hp and torque than the Escalade's 6.2 liter, there could be a fuel efficiency gain there, and set the Escalade apart from the Yukon Denali more. CTS would really benefit, from the V8. They say the new 550i with that engine (and 8-speed transmission) will be nearly as fast as the current M5.

There are a lot of interesting applications, including BMW's diesel engines. The engine I'd love to see come here is the 4.4 liter diesel from the 745d, it makes around 330 hp, and over 550 lb-ft and gets 26 mpg, that's probably a highway rating though, but still good for that much power.

[Drew Dowdell]

I would have rather seen GM make their own engines to rival BMW, giving in and buying theirs is admitting defeat in a way.

So.... BMW admitted defeat by outsourcing 5-speed auto development to GM for however many years?

just askin...

[Robert Hall]

So.... BMW admitted defeat by outsourcing 5-speed auto development to GM for however many years?

just askin...

That is surprising to hear, esp. considering GM's been all about the 4spd automatics for decades...

[Drew Dowdell]

That is surprising to hear, esp. considering GM's been all about the 4spd automatics for decades...

BMW had exclusive use of the design at first.

GM got to use it later, but didn't have to pay for the development.

[VenSeattle]

Not to mention the 5-sp auto was for RWD applications. Majority of GM's continuing 4-sp auto fleet have been FWD vehicles.

[Drew Dowdell]

The BMW TT V8 makes more hp and torque than the Escalade's 6.2 liter, there could be a fuel efficiency gain there.

what on god's green earth makes you think that?!

[turbo200]

I would have rather seen GM make their own engines to rival BMW, giving in and buying theirs is admitting defeat in a way. But since they canceled the Ultra program and the 3.6 V6 isn't as good as BMW's turbo-6, I am fine with them putting BMW engines in a Cadillac. I am for any plan that makes Cadillacs better.

I am sure on BMW's end they'll mark the price up for their engines, so I wonder if that will make it more expensive for GM to buy BMW's engine rather than use their own. BMW could end up making $500 worth of profit on every Cadillac sold, which isn't a bad deal for them.

The BMW TT V8 makes more hp and torque than the Escalade's 6.2 liter, there could be a fuel efficiency gain there, and set the Escalade apart from the Yukon Denali more. CTS would really benefit, from the V8. They say the new 550i with that engine (and 8-speed transmission) will be nearly as fast as the current M5.

There are a lot of interesting applications, including BMW's diesel engines. The engine I'd love to see come here is the 4.4 liter diesel from the 745d, it makes around 330 hp, and over 550 lb-ft and gets 26 mpg, that's probably a highway rating though, but still good for that much power.

Given GM's historice stance, I doubt we will see a significant reengineering of any of thier platforms to incorporate statisically and technically superior BMW engines. I don't know what this is about but I sure hope it means a synergy is in the works between them, GM could benefit, but where's BMW's benefit? Maybe GM will give them Pontiac?

Edited March 7, 2008 by turbo200

[Robert Hall]

what on god's green earth makes you think that?!

Well, it couldn't do any worse..the 6.2 gets what, 12 mpg?

[smk4565]

what on god's green earth makes you think that?!

4.4 liters often burns less gas than 6.2 liters. If GM had a wider array of high end Cadillacs it would be worth it to develop their own V8 and tack on a light hybrid system to keep it getting 20 mpg, but since they don't have a V8, if they can get BMW's why not test it in an Escalade and see what the mileage and acceleration are, both may improve.

[Drew Dowdell]

4.4 liters often burns less gas than 6.2 liters. If GM had a wider array of high end Cadillacs it would be worth it to develop their own V8 and tack on a light hybrid system to keep it getting 20 mpg, but since they don't have a V8, if they can get BMW's why not test it in an Escalade and see what the mileage and acceleration are, both may improve.

uh, the s/c 4.4 gets 14 / 21 mpg in the 760i with RWD..... the Escalade gets 12 / 18 mpg with AWD.

aerodynamics alone is going to cost you 2mpg.

[Blake Noble]

Ahhhh, my two favorite car companies, working together again, I'm in heaven.

I can foresee a lot of good coming of this.

[thegriffon]

uh, the s/c 4.4 gets 14 / 21 mpg in the 760i with RWD..... the Escalade gets 12 / 18 mpg with AWD.

aerodynamics alone is going to cost you 2mpg.

ahh, the 760i is a 6.0 L V12, not a supercharged 4.4 L V8.

GM has a 4.4 L supercharged V8, BMW's is a 4.4 L sequential turbo, and will be first offered in the X6 xDrive50. Since the X6 is smaller, lighter and hopefully more aerodynamic than the Escalade, it should get better economy.

[Camino LS6]

I can see lots of competitive advantages to a closer alliance between BMW and GM. I don't know about an outright merger though. The two companies build the best powertrains on the planet and have unmatched engineering capabilities. Great stuff could come from a close association between them.

[Drew Dowdell]

ahh, the 760i is a 6.0 L V12, not a supercharged 4.4 L V8.

GM has a 4.4 L supercharged V8, BMW's is a 4.4 L sequential turbo, and will be first offered in the X6 xDrive50. Since the X6 is smaller, lighter and hopefully more aerodynamic than the Escalade, it should get better economy.

That was a typo on my part.... the numbers are correct, the model number was not. BMW does produce a s/c4.4litre 7-series that returns 14 / 21 mpg.

And yes, I would expect a smaller and lighter X6 to get better fuel economy, however that's not what SMK was saying. He's saying that Cadillac should put the 4.4l TT into the Escalade and it would get better fuel economy than the current 6.2 litre. I really think not.

[Robert Hall]

That was a typo on my part.... the numbers are correct, the model number was not. BMW does produce a s/c4.4litre 7-series that returns 14 / 21 mpg.

And yes, I would expect a smaller and lighter X6 to get better fuel economy, however that's not what SMK was saying. He's saying that Cadillac should put the 4.4l TT into the Escalade and it would get better fuel economy than the current 6.2 litre. I really think not.

If they could improve the aerodynamics and cut the weight for the next generation, (the Escalade is absurdly obese) that would help the fuel economy also..

[Camino LS6]

If they could improve the aerodynamics and cut the weight for the next generation, (the Escalade is absurdly obese) that would help the fuel economy also..

Or better yet, replace the Escalade and the SRX with a line of crossovers a la the Denali XT.

I'd use the Escalade name on them.

[The O.C.]

That was a typo on my part.... the numbers are correct, the model number was not. BMW does produce a s/c4.4litre 7-series that returns 14 / 21 mpg.

And yes, I would expect a smaller and lighter X6 to get better fuel economy, however that's not what SMK was saying. He's saying that Cadillac should put the 4.4l TT into the Escalade and it would get better fuel economy than the current 6.2 litre. I really think not.

Unless you are talking about the Alpina B7.....that is, I believe, a S/C 4.4L V8.

[Drew Dowdell]

Escalade sells extremely well for what it is.... as long as GM is ok with Escalade volume decreasing as gas prices increase, they can add features and improvements that make the vehicle even more exclusive. No, GM isn't going to be able to sell the Escalade to McMansion dwellers much longer, but put the right things in it and can take it's place with the super high end Range Rovers, Hummers, and G-wagons. Make it something only NBA stars and search engine authors can afford. Let the Yukon Denali serve the McMansion set....... well.. the ones that haven't been foreclosed on that is.....

It becomes a halo vehicle and starts to lift the rest of the lineup along with it. Time the updates of the STS/DTS right, bring out a 3-series spanking BTS, and Cadillac will definitely have arrived.