2008 Holden Coupe 60 Concept

[Blake Noble]

Call me when you buy the Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

I guess I'll be in touch then.

Edited March 5, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[SS22]

Why do they keep showing us pillar less coupes? If in reality they are not feasible, I know its a concept, but whats the point of promoting something we cant have! Its like salt in the wound! Nice car though Bring it to Pontiac!

[K.C.]

They aren't promoting anything. The whole idea of a concept is showing what can be done when productions costs and safety regulations are not an issue.

[turbo200]

Core buyers for GM:

Car Rental joints.

Dying Senior Citizens so doped up on meds they don't know what they drive.

People so broke they have to buy whatever has the biggest incentive.

Heh... I'm not a core buyer, either.

that made me LOL. I would say something encouraging, but I might be lying. Offensive as this may be, it's the reality. Obviously, though, there are core groups of buyers outside these three mentioned and the general trend is they are traditional buyers. in other words, young, wealthy, career professionals are looking elsewhere for thier favorite cars. GM has no way of appealing to this market right now, and won't until the right product is offered. It reminds me of a fantastic commercial by Audi showing a just out of college guy starting his career or graduating college and he's offered three choices, MB, BMW and Lexus as the traditional choices, then a rocking song comes on, the Audi appears and looks phenomonal. It's a great commercial that gets a great point across about Audi being a radical choice, and thier styling is already starting to reflect this and will enforce this even more as time goes on. Thier marketing is really starting to align with product, and will do so more in the future, but that's another issue for another day.

The focus is on product here. With the right bold product, no one in my generation will look down on you. But you have to appeal to them and not be afraid to release the car in the first place. GM is still doing cars by committee, and has not figured out how to understand the younger generation that is open minded, looks at everything with fresh eyes, and is style and not price discriminating. Cars like the CTS, Enclave, Malibu are not risks imo, at all, they still have the committee feel to them. maybe malibu's interior is something they really went on a limb with.

GM will have to release bold product if it wants to turn around thier brands. If it has any hope of coming around in the future and not being swallowed by the intense competition, it must not hold back from making head turning cars that appeal to all age groupgs, young people especially. It must not hold back sophistication either.

Edited March 6, 2008 by turbo200

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The focus is on product here. With the right bold product, no one in my generation will look down on you. But you have to appeal to them and not be afraid to release the car in the first place. GM is still doing cars by committee, and has not figured out how to understand the younger generation that is open minded, looks at everything with fresh eyes, and is style and not price discriminating. Cars like the CTS, Enclave, Malibu are not risks imo, at all, they still have the committee feel to them. maybe malibu's interior is something they really went on a limb with.

GM will have to release bold product if it wants to turn around thier brands. If it has any hope of coming around in the future and not being swallowed by the intense competition, it must not hold back from making head turning cars that appeal to all age groupgs, young people especially. It must not hold back sophistication either.

QFT

[Camino LS6]

Agreed.

Best pair of paragraphs I've seen lately.

[Z-06]

Agreed.

Best pair of paragraphs I've seen lately.

You mean smk4565 is not the best poster. That is unfair for him.

[SAmadei]

Congratulations, in just six posts you've managed to post the dumbest response I've ever seen on C&G.

I guess you're right. I forgot about the fourth group. Trucks for people who never drive off pavement.

But speaking _just_ for cars... Please explain.

What are GM's "core buyers" if my cynical list isn't good enough?

The people reading Car and Driver aren't core buyers... they love their BMWes. Even the G8 was not "world class" enough.

The people reading Consumer Reports aren't core buyers. CR gives nearly all GM cars a failing grade.

The people read C&G apparently aren't core buyers as we're too informed.

Police and Taxi fleets aren't core buyers since 1996.

They're a lot of people like me who want something big/RWD/V8/coupe... but most of them just moved into trucks, which are pretty much big RWD, V8 coupes with big trunks. I don't like trucks... I like cars. But with the CAFE changes, GM isn't going to be able to continue selling the trucks people want... or people aren't going to be able to afford the gas. In any case, a new market for larger RWD coupes and sedans with small V8s or hipo V6s has got to grow. Maybe GM should be thinking about that core buyer of the near future instead of fighting to get the long-lost to Toyota-Honda fictional 20-40 upwardly mobile core buyer.

Go find some 20-40 years olds and ask them what cars they want. They aren't GMs... either volume family cars or halo vehicles. If they drive a GM, its because they couldn't afford what they wanted and got a leftover with big incentives. Out of the people I know, _one_ drives a GM and is proud of it... a '90 Buick Electra. He can't wait to get his raise so he can buy a VW EOS. Jeez!

The new rebirth of GM (Aura, Malibu, Enclave, CTS) is going to take a _long_ time to change 30 years of awful cars designed by bean counters.

Anyway, I may only have 6 posts here, as I am a lurker and generally don't have the time to comment... but I was evangelizing GM on the Internet well before their was a C&G or a WWW... and every time it seems like GM is about to turn the corner... it gets worse. 1996... death of the B-bod... 2002... death of the F-bod... 2005... death of the B'ville... 2006-7... death of the GTO/zeta projects. So I am healthily skeptical and have every right to cynical posts.

I own about 15 GM cars. I love GMs. I am in the market for some more... but GM doesn't seem to want to sell to me. I'm not going to buy something which is in such short supply my local dealer screws me. I'm not buying FWD. It's not compelling to buy a FWD GM when I see two year old Cadillac DTS'es on eBay for 17K. I'm not buying some tiny piece of crap.

Core buyer gone bad: I wanted to buy a Bonneville GXP. $45K for a Pontiac was insane at my local dealer. I wanted a GTO, but then they are going to have a faster one next year with scoops... _but_ not in the color I fell in love with. $5K dealer surcharge? Working more in NYC, I didn't need a new car that bad. I wanted a Solistice... dealer wouldn't let me sit in it without a $5K deposit. Later found out I had gotten too fat for a Solistice... and Consumer Reports says they fall apart. I was thinking about the Torrent GXP... but later decided a 260hp Caprice was a better deal... lighter, faster and I wouldn't cry if I scratched it hauling sheetrock. Now I kinda want a G8 GT. Dealer is already telling me they are going to charge $7K over sticker!!! Well, I can wait for the 6 speed stick... and the GXP version. But then they won't be available in the cool color shifting blue/purple. WTF!

The time is ticking... and the Mercedes SL550 and BMW 650i are looking better and better. Oh, and they aren't vaporware. And what do you suppose I'm going to park next to them in my garage? Hint: it ain't going to be a shabby Uplander.

Rant over for now... I'll continue it in my 8th ever C&G dumbest post.

[Camino LS6]

If your dealer is demanding a 7k premium on a G8, you need a new dealer.

[Oracle of Delphi]

If your dealer is demanding a 7k premium on a G8, you need a new dealer.

Yeah, most will only ask for 3K.

[Camino LS6]

They can be had at or below MSRP if you work at it a little.

[cletus8269]

smk do you have a brother? hehe

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah, most will only ask for 3K.

So you admit that the G8 is wildly successful already?

[Oracle of Delphi]

So you admit that the G8 is wildly successful already?

I admit the dealers are going down the same greedy road they went down with the GTO, and we all remember what a flop that turned out to be, cars sitting on dealer lots almost two years after they were shipped. I bet If I did a search on dealer stocks, there would still be some GTO's sitting unsold.

[Northstar]

I admit the dealers are going down the same greedy road they went down with the GTO, and we all remember what a flop that turned out to be, cars sitting on dealer lots almost two years after they were shipped. I bet If I did a search on dealer stocks, there would still be some GTO's sitting unsold.

Yeah, there are 28 left on lots somewhere. Big deal. The GTO was not a flop like many people like to say. It sold better than the Trans Am or Camaro SS, for example. Better than the Bullitt, Mach1, Cobra, and other non-GT V8 Mustangs as well. For the price and segment, it sold quite well. GTO was one of the least-fleeted GM cars ever. Less than the Vette, less than the Solstice. Even less than any Porsche. If it had as many fleet sales as a certain unnamed, outdated car, it would have been a HUGE success!

I like how the Solstice, with an average transaction price of probably ~$25k is considered a huge success when it doesn't sell much better than the GTO did, which was considered a huge flop.

[cletus8269]

where are these 28 GTOs you speak of and how does one aquire them?

[Camino LS6]

Interestingly, all of the unsold GTOs are automatics.

If they were manuals they would already be gone.

[SuperSport623]

Interestingly, all of the unsold GTOs are automatics.

i was interested in searching until that post

i want a goat... but not a slushbox!

[cletus8269]

i was interested in searching until that post

i want a goat... but not a slushbox!

bah, i second that... still its hard to believe they are out there... even though they are autos i wonder how low you could get em?

[Camino LS6]

bah, i second that... still its hard to believe they are out there... even though they are autos i wonder how low you could get em?

Ask a dealer to run a search for you. Or go to LS1GTO.com, those guys have kept tabs on them and can probably tell you what's left and where it is.

[Northstar]

where are these 28 GTOs you speak of and how does one aquire them?

http://ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225086

There are 2 in Tennessee, which is probably the closest place to you. One with 17s and a manual and one with an auto.

Interestingly, all of the unsold GTOs are automatics.

If they were manuals they would already be gone.

No, there are 4 manuals left. 2 Torrid Reds with 18s and one with 17s, and a Brazen with 17s.

[Blake Noble]

Um, big question: are these still going for sticker? Or could you nab one for around ... sixteen grand or so? Just wondering.

Also, Northie, the two GTOs in Murfreesboro with sticks are gone. They do have a Phantom Black GTO ... but it has a big downfall: it's an auto. Link.

I find it interesting that they refuse to disclose the MSRP.

[turbo200]

that means they are trying to make all the money and more; fooling people into thinking the car is more expensive than it is since thier's no advertising for it anymore.

Pontiac dealers possibly wouldn't do these insane markups every five years they get one good model if they weren't so product starved. Of all the brands, Pontiac has been starved like no other.

I also agree with you Northie that the GTO wasn't a flop. For a Pontiac to have relevance in Los Angeles is a huge prize. LA moves in fashion trends like maybe only New York, Paris, and potentially Miami and a couple other cities throughout the world not in the US. The problem with GTO was not anything related to being a Pontiac, the biggest issue was the statement it was making design wise wasn't relevant or groundbreaking when it was released. It's not a bad looking car in anyway though.

Edited March 7, 2008 by turbo200

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I distinctly remember shady dealers when the Camaro went out of production in 2002.

I found one on a lot here in mid to late 2003 and the dealer had jacked the price because it was "a collectible" and "one of a kind" and "rare"

I pity the fool who fell for that garb.

[Northstar]

Um, big question: are these still going for sticker? Or could you nab one for around ... sixteen grand or so? Just wondering.

Also, Northie, the two GTOs in Murfreesboro with sticks are gone. They do have a Phantom Black GTO ... but it has a big downfall: it's an auto. Link.

I find it interesting that they refuse to disclose the MSRP.

Sixteen grand? LOL. You can get a used 04 with ~30k miles for $17k on ebay. There's an 06 on ebay with 7k miles for $21k. That's the cheapest I've seen for a used 06. My local dealer recently sold a used '06 for ~$25k.

[cletus8269]

that means they are trying to make all the money and more; fooling people into thinking the car is more expensive than it is since thier's no advertising for it anymore.

Pontiac dealers possibly wouldn't do these insane markups every five years they get one good model if they weren't so product starved. Of all the brands, Pontiac has been starved like no other.

I also agree with you Northie that the GTO wasn't a flop. For a Pontiac to have relevance in Los Angeles is a huge prize. LA moves in fashion trends like maybe only New York, Paris, and potentially Miami and a couple other cities throughout the world not in the US. The problem with GTO was not anything related to being a Pontiac, the biggest issue was the statement it was making design wise wasn't relevant or groundbreaking when it was released. It's not a bad looking car in anyway though.

i was in Xray school when the GTOs were announced, i was in total disbelief as dealers list goats they didnt have up for auction. the winning bidder was only saing i got the right to purchase. that said i watched in amazement as a guy paid $5500 just to say i get an 04 gto. $40 grand was crazy... but the sheer greed displayed by the dealers made me ashamed to even be in the Generals army. when the 09 camaro was announced they already had one or 2 on ebay... what a shame.