2008 Holden Coupe 60 Concept

[smk4565]

I didn't forget the Escalade Hybrid, which may get 20 mpg, maybe 19 if it has more weight than the Tahoe to pull, but the Escalade Hybrid doesn't have 758 lb-ft or do 0-60 faster than an XLR.

I would love to see the CTS diesel on sale here, hopefully this happens for 09 models, since the Germans have a lot of diesels coming. New M5 is 2010 model, I don't think the CTS-V should be compared to the M5, the CTS-V isn't $83,000, problem is Lutz and GM not only compare it to the M5, but say it's better.

The CX-9 was Motor Trend tuck of the year, Car and Driver 5 best truck list also. The interior on the CX-9 is reminds me of a Volvo, it's actually pretty nice. It also has the new 3.7 liter with 275 hp and is about 400 pounds lighter than the Lambdas. The Lambas are good, the Mazda is a tad better.

Astra is not a premium car, it has 140 hp and cloth seats. It isn't comparable to the Mini Cooper, VW GLI/R32/Scirocco and Jetta, 1-series (pricey but 0-60 in 4.7 seconds). (i know the mini and jetta start around 150 hp but they offer upgrades) Nothing 3-series sized but the 9-3 and that car is old and not that good.

The Odyssey (which is not the top selling minivan) outsold all 3 Lambdas combined last year. Crossovers are selling more because body on frame are selling less. The SUV market is just shifting sales around, SUVs aren't taking market share from cars. $4 a gallon is coming, SUVs are going to be a tough sell.

[Intrepidation]

I didn't forget the Escalade Hybrid, which may get 20 mpg, maybe 19 if it has more weight than the Tahoe to pull, but the Escalade Hybrid doesn't have 758 lb-ft or do 0-60 faster than an XLR.

I would love to see the CTS diesel on sale here, hopefully this happens for 09 models, since the Germans have a lot of diesels coming. New M5 is 2010 model, I don't think the CTS-V should be compared to the M5, the CTS-V isn't $83,000, problem is Lutz and GM not only compare it to the M5, but say it's better.

The CX-9 was Motor Trend tuck of the year, Car and Driver 5 best truck list also. The interior on the CX-9 is reminds me of a Volvo, it's actually pretty nice. It also has the new 3.7 liter with 275 hp and is about 400 pounds lighter than the Lambdas. The Lambas are good, the Mazda is a tad better.

Astra is not a premium car, it has 140 hp and cloth seats. It isn't comparable to the Mini Cooper, VW GLI/R32/Scirocco and Jetta, 1-series (pricey but 0-60 in 4.7 seconds). (i know the mini and jetta start around 150 hp but they offer upgrades) Nothing 3-series sized but the 9-3 and that car is old and not that good.

The Odyssey (which is not the top selling minivan) outsold all 3 Lambdas combined last year. Crossovers are selling more because body on frame are selling less. The SUV market is just shifting sales around, SUVs aren't taking market share from cars. $4 a gallon is coming, SUVs are going to be a tough sell.

Of course they are going to compare it to the M5, the CTS-V is in the same size class. Please go away.

[smk4565]

The Camry, Malibu and MKZ are the same size as the CTS also. Most people shop cars in price ranges, size is good to categorize and compare, but if you can't spend over $40k, you can go buy a CTS, can't get a 5-series.

A prospective buyer looking to spend $45k could cross shop a CTS DI vs a used 545i/550i.

[Blake Noble]

I've read every single one of smk's posts in this thread and can deduct that they can pose a serious health hazard to one's mental health. Reading that much ignorance in one large dose is far beyond maddening and is certainly inhumane. I think they even technically violate the Geneva Conventions.

Ok, we get it already. There are a good chunk of GM's platforms that don't weigh like a Lotus Exige once you build one of them up into a fully baked car. GM doesn't have any current plans to sell the CTS diesel here and, although you've never set foot in one in your life, the new CTS-v isn't as good as a M5. You think that the VE Coupe 60 is a dated design. Sure, your Aurora is a heavy car, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, the Astra isn't a premium compact because it makes the leather seats an option and has a low horsepower rating, blah, blah, blah, piss, piss, piss, moan, moan, moan, complain.

What's next? You gonna complain that GM is, yet again, behind the curve because they haven't figured out how to reanimate dinosaurs from fossils?

[Northstar]

I didn't forget the Escalade Hybrid, which may get 20 mpg, maybe 19 if it has more weight than the Tahoe to pull, but the Escalade Hybrid doesn't have 758 lb-ft or do 0-60 faster than an XLR.

I would love to see the CTS diesel on sale here, hopefully this happens for 09 models, since the Germans have a lot of diesels coming. New M5 is 2010 model, I don't think the CTS-V should be compared to the M5, the CTS-V isn't $83,000, problem is Lutz and GM not only compare it to the M5, but say it's better.

The CX-9 was Motor Trend tuck of the year, Car and Driver 5 best truck list also. The interior on the CX-9 is reminds me of a Volvo, it's actually pretty nice. It also has the new 3.7 liter with 275 hp and is about 400 pounds lighter than the Lambdas. The Lambas are good, the Mazda is a tad better.

Astra is not a premium car, it has 140 hp and cloth seats. It isn't comparable to the Mini Cooper, VW GLI/R32/Scirocco and Jetta, 1-series (pricey but 0-60 in 4.7 seconds). (i know the mini and jetta start around 150 hp but they offer upgrades) Nothing 3-series sized but the 9-3 and that car is old and not that good.

The Odyssey (which is not the top selling minivan) outsold all 3 Lambdas combined last year. Crossovers are selling more because body on frame are selling less. The SUV market is just shifting sales around, SUVs aren't taking market share from cars. $4 a gallon is coming, SUVs are going to be a tough sell.

Escalade Hybrid will be plenty fast. Should be 0-60 under 6 seconds like the regular one.

The CX-9 only wins the awards because it handles better. As a family hauler, the Lambdas do a better job, hence the sales results (even compared to the Outlook). The interior of the CX-9 is quite good, but I felt the Lambdas were better.

Astra offers leather, FYI. You seem to be saying it's not premium because it has only 140HP. So if it had a 200HP it would be premium? I don't see how that works, but whateva.

Sales of the Lambdas were better than the Odyssey in December. Enclave wasn't on sale until later than the others and the Outlook's and Acadia's were just arriving in January last year. They also beat it in January 2008 by a ratio of ~2:3. On top of that, the Lambdas start a few grand higher than the Odyssey. Sales of GM, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Chrysler, and Ford were down 158k units in 2007 vs. 2006. The minivan market is shrinking at a huge rate.

[ocnblu]

The Mini Cooper comes with vinyl seats and 115 hp, thereabouts, on the base model.

[smk4565]

Edmunds.com has the Escalade (short length) at 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Although I've seen several times at 6.5 to 6.7 seconds, which seems about right for 403 hp and a 6 speed and the weight.

Car and Driver tested the Tahoe Hybrid last month, it was 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. The Tahoe gets slower in hybrid form, the Escalade using the same powertrain will become slow as well.

The Astra will compete against the Civic, and Mazda3. It's much better than the Ion or Cobalt, but not really a premium car.

As far as the Coupe 60 goes, it is just a newer version of the GTO. The Camaro is 1000 times better looking, Chevy has a better image than Pontiac as well, the Camaro would make a Pontiac coupe pointless.

[gmcbob]

This car is cool - the Camaro is better looking , but this would make a really cool GTO.

We'll never see it though because GM doesn't know up from down at the moment.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Edmunds.com has the Escalade (short length) at 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Although I've seen several times at 6.5 to 6.7 seconds, which seems about right for 403 hp and a 6 speed and the weight.

Car and Driver tested the Tahoe Hybrid last month, it was 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. The Tahoe gets slower in hybrid form, the Escalade using the same powertrain will become slow as well.

The Astra will compete against the Civic, and Mazda3. It's much better than the Ion or Cobalt, but not really a premium car.

As far as the Coupe 60 goes, it is just a newer version of the GTO. The Camaro is 1000 times better looking, Chevy has a better image than Pontiac as well, the Camaro would make a Pontiac coupe pointless.

Why isn't an Audi or BMW as quiet as a Lexus? Why isn't a Lexus as powerful or as fast as a Mercedes or BMW? Why doesn't Lexus make an SUV that gets 20mpg and goes 0-60 in 5.5 seconds? Why is BMW going to be using a shared hybrid design with GM, which neither will do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds? Why can't the X5 outhandle the SRX? Anyone can come up with the lame comparisons that you do. There are more to cars than just a spec sheet, which seems to be your only knowledge about any of the cars you like to compare.

Oh, and if there's a new GTO, I'll be buying one. Especially if it looks exactly like the Coupe 60.

[smk4565]

Lexus has a 27 mpg SUV, but it isn't that fast. Lexus is know for quiet and reliable, BMW is known for handling, Mercedes is engineering, all of them have something they do well. My problem with Cadillac is they don't have a clear identity and they don't have any flagship or unique products.

The Coupe 60 will have to compete with a better looking and cheaper Mustang, Camaro, new 370Z, etc. What Pontiac really needs is the Alpha platform (as does Cadillac). Personally I think they killed Pontiac's image with years of rebadged Chevys they sold to rental fleets. The Solstice is an amazing looking car, and couldn't turn Pontiac's image, perhaps nothing can.

[Northstar]

The Coupe 60 will have to compete with a better looking and cheaper Mustang, Camaro, new 370Z, etc. What Pontiac really needs is the Alpha platform (as does Cadillac). Personally I think they killed Pontiac's image with years of rebadged Chevys they sold to rental fleets. The Solstice is an amazing looking car, and couldn't turn Pontiac's image, perhaps nothing can.

According to you it's not as good-looking. I would take this over the cars you mentioned. It's much more modern looking than the Camaro or Mustang. And who says it will be more expensive? The G8 is only $30k with a V8 and that includes dual-zone climate, premium sound system, 18" inch wheels, and 361HP. A Mustang with premium sound, 18" wheels, and 300HP is $28.5k. Not much of a difference and the G8 has a better interior and dual-zone climate that the Mustang does not have (there are probably other small differences as well). So you really think the G8 coupe would be that much more expensive than the sedan? I doubt it.

[ZL-1]

The Mini Cooper comes with vinyl seats and 115 hp, thereabouts, on the base model.

95PS and cloth seats for the MINI One (not sold in the US).

[cletus8269]

oops i think there is a broken link or something... i clicked the holden link off the front page but so far all ive read is how the bmlexucedes war machine is pwning everything the general or anyone else in the automotive industry has to offer.. what are we to do? who will redeem this? why am i asking retorical questions that everyone knows the answer too?

on the story of the hybrids... i thought the whole point of them was to save the world not produce the blistering speed of the normal engine. you cant save the world and go fast its like a pun or somethin hehe (yes i know thats supposed to be oximoron not pun)

the holden is a great looking car... her is the thing its got no b pillar on it which if i recall correctly somewhere in all the post back there was once one of smk's gripes, no cheap pillarless cars... if i am wrong about that sorry. (it could have been 68... i dont know)

as far as all th negative posts about this car go... a song by ELO is unning throuh my head.

dont bring me down... no no no no no

[smk4565]

I think no B-pillar is cool (as are suicide doors like Rolls has or the Imperial concept). But with safety standards, it's hard to do, and I'd take lower weight over no b-pillar. Although I think the Mazda RX-8 doesn't have a B-pillar, that would be cool if the Camaro or GTO (if they make it) do the double door and no pillar thing.

[silverss/sc]

Just and overlay over a Commodore . The C60 uses the Commodore front rails(the Camaro uses long front rails ) and the Camaro "short Zeta" mid and rear sections . It similar in size to the Camaro , but still bigger .

Edited March 3, 2008 by silverss/sc

[SuperSport623]

damn, so if its the same wheelbase as the sedan, an aduklt may actually be able to sit in the back! camaro be damned! lol

[Chazman]

Just and overlay over a Commodore . The C60 uses the Commodore front rails(the Camaro uses long front rails ) and the Camaro "short Zeta" mid and rear sections . It similar in size to the Camaro , but still bigger .

Actually, the Camaro will use a shorter mid section than the standard short wheelbase Zeta.

[prinzSD]

It's not very nice to deny us the cars we WANT.

+1

--

This car is so damn sexy! a Hardtop too! Please, oh please build it! I'd sacrifice the entire Hummer Brand to have it!l

That is damn hot. It certainly get my attention if it was built and brought over as a GTO or some Pontiac

[ltdaniels]

i don't understand how a car that good looking couldn't be a hit anywhere..

[Camino LS6]

i don't understand how a car that good looking couldn't be a hit anywhere..

It would be.

But the wussies within GM are too powerful.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Who are these wussies you speak of? Tell me their names!

[SuperSport623]

Carl-Peter Foster, all of GM Europe, yada yada yada....

i say let GM performance rule the show

[Northstar]

GME's method may be successful in terms of being the largest automaker in the world, but GME's method also means selling cars for people who view cars as appliances, like Toyota does. There's nothing wrong with using GME's method for mainstream cars, but GME can stay the f@#k out of dealing with the approval/canning of performance vehicles. They have no idea WTF they're doing on that front.

GME's way: let's be the biggest automaker in the world, even if the cars (appliances) we make are for losers.

The way it should be: Let's make appliances for losers and also be the coolest car maker in the world at the same time by also building kick-ass performance vehicles that are fun to drive at an affordable price. GME is missing one key ingredient, and it's going to bite all of GM in the ass. If it's a Mustang or a Malibu/Aura/FWD EPII, I'll gladly take the Mustang.

[Oracle of Delphi]

GME's method may be successful in terms of being the largest automaker in the world, but GME's method also means selling cars for people who view cars as appliances, like Toyota does. There's nothing wrong with using GME's method for mainstream cars, but GME can stay the f@#k out of dealing with the approval/canning of performance vehicles. They have no idea WTF they're doing on that front.

GME's way: let's be the biggest automaker in the world, even if the cars (appliances) we make are for losers.

The way it should be: Let's make appliances for losers and also be the coolest car maker in the world at the same time by also building kick-ass performance vehicles that are fun to drive at an affordable price. GME is missing one key ingredient, and it's going to bite all of GM in the ass. If it's a Mustang or a Malibu/Aura/FWD EPII, I'll gladly take the Mustang.

Northstar, are you Ok buddy?

[Robert Hall]

GME's method may be successful in terms of being the largest automaker in the world, but GME's method also means selling cars for people who view cars as appliances, like Toyota does. There's nothing wrong with using GME's method for mainstream cars, but GME can stay the f@#k out of dealing with the approval/canning of performance vehicles. They have no idea WTF they're doing on that front.

GME's way: let's be the biggest automaker in the world, even if the cars (appliances) we make are for losers.

The way it should be: Let's make appliances for losers and also be the coolest car maker in the world at the same time by also building kick-ass performance vehicles that are fun to drive at an affordable price. GME is missing one key ingredient, and it's going to bite all of GM in the ass. If it's a Mustang or a Malibu/Aura/FWD EPII, I'll gladly take the Mustang.

Remember the 'G' in GM is for 'General', as in 'generic', mass audience appliances...that's where the biggest market is...

[Blake Noble]

The way it should be: Let's make appliances for losers and also be the coolest car maker in the world at the same time by also building kick-ass performance vehicles that are fun to drive at an affordable price. GME is missing one key ingredient, and it's going to bite all of GM in the ass. If it's a Mustang or a Malibu/Aura/FWD EPII, I'll gladly take the Mustang.

+1

I came to realize today that my star-crossed love affair with the Astra was, in the end, a very blind love. Handsome little car, nice, crisp handling, but it's just lacking in something, mainly just a overall sense of long-lasting excitement. And today when I in the Lexington area and decided to try and check it out a little better, I found my initial attraction to it faded rather fast. As I was driving it, I thought, yes, this is a really nice car, but I found I just couldn't feel whatever enthusiasm I had for it before I drove it. And I know if I start boosting the horsepower, which I would certainly plan on doing, I can kiss that great, crisp handling goodbye and start kissing up to bad old Mr. Torque Steer and The Chaos Theory.

So, sorry, Borger Booger. You can just put away that thank you card from Carl-Pecker and Co. now. Keep it as a remind of what might have been but just couldn't have been.

However, I noticed a nice, used BMW 3-Series sedan not too far away from me. Maybe little smaller than I would like, but it'll do until a certain coupe finds its way into my hands. Let's hope it's 1.) a manual and 2.) it wasn't too badly raped by whoever owned it last ... :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 4, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Oracle of Delphi]

+1

I came to realize today that my star-crossed love affair with the Astra was, in the end, a very blind love. Handsome little car, nice, crisp handling, but it's just lacking in something, mainly just a overall sense of long-lasting excitement. And today when I in the Lexington area and decided to try and check it out a little better, I found my initial attraction to it faded rather fast. As I was driving it, I thought, yes, this is a really nice car, but I found I just couldn't feel whatever enthusiasm I had for it before I drove it. And I know if I start boosting the horsepower, which I would certainly plan on doing, I can kiss that great, crisp handling goodbye and start kissing up to bad old Mr. Torque Steer and The Chaos Theory.

So, sorry, Borger Booger. You can just put away that thank you card from Carl-Pecker and Co. now. Keep it as a remind of what might have been but just couldn't have been.

However, I noticed a nice, used BMW 3-Series sedan not too far away from me. Maybe little smaller than I would like, but it'll do until a certain coupe finds its way into my hands. Let's hope it's 1.) a manual and 2.) it wasn't too badly raped by whoever owned it last ... :AH-HA_wink:

Doesn't matter what you buy, as long as it's the Zeta Camaro you've preached about for so longggggggggg, anything else other than a brand new Zeta Camaro, will garner you, in my mind at least, as the Waffle King of C&G. :AH-HA_wink: You want syrup with that? :rotflmao:

[Blake Noble]

Doesn't matter what you buy, as long as it's the Zeta Camaro you've preached about for so longggggggggg, anything else other than a brand new Zeta Camaro, will garner you, in my mind at least, as the Waffle King of C&G. :AH-HA_wink: You want syrup with that? :rotflmao:

Awww. Don't go sounding all disappointed on me now that you lost just one likely sale for Carl-Pecker and Generic Motors of Ew-Rope, Borger. You gotta start taking this kind of thing like a champ, since it will be something you'll be seeing quite a lot of in the future, ja? :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 4, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Oracle of Delphi]

When will you be changing your sig from the Camaro to Waffles? Will it be soon? So why no Camaro now? Do tell! Oh if you don't buy a Camaro I will forever smile when I hear your name mentioned. I mean if it is, ever mentioned again after you waffle on the Camaro.

[Blake Noble]

When will you be changing your sig from the Camaro to Waffles? Will it be soon? So why no Camaro now? Do tell! Oh if you don't buy a Camaro I will forever smile when I hear your name mentioned. I mean if it is, ever mentioned again after you waffle on the Camaro.

Poor old Borger. You really are taking this quite hard, aren't you?

It'll be ok, though. I'm sure you'll get a few of those lovely Toyota buyers to stop in and buy whatever you guys at GME design on your coffee breaks after their Corolla gets a few tearing body panels or their Camry comes down with a case of a bum transmission. After all, that's all that ever matters right? Being bigger, but not better, than Toyota and not having any real advantage in the market or any real appeal? Like it always sort of has been for the past two decades?

Why no previous Camaro for my stopgap ride, I guess is what you're asking, though? Well, let me say, I haven't counted out that particular option, either. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 4, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Intrepidation]

GME's method may be successful in terms of being the largest automaker in the world, but GME's method also means selling cars for people who view cars as appliances, like Toyota does. There's nothing wrong with using GME's method for mainstream cars, but GME can stay the f@#k out of dealing with the approval/canning of performance vehicles. They have no idea WTF they're doing on that front.

GME's way: let's be the biggest automaker in the world, even if the cars (appliances) we make are for losers.

The way it should be: Let's make appliances for losers and also be the coolest car maker in the world at the same time by also building kick-ass performance vehicles that are fun to drive at an affordable price. GME is missing one key ingredient, and it's going to bite all of GM in the ass. If it's a Mustang or a Malibu/Aura/FWD EPII, I'll gladly take the Mustang.

Quoted for Truth.

Also, I image if the Coupe 60 were to be produced people might not being defecting to Nissan to get a proper sports coupe. See, Nissan has a set a of balls whereas GM was neutered long ago. Funny, Nissan has no problem selling the Z, and it's platform is pretty exclusive is it not? I'm sure it costs more to produce than the Coupe 60 would. But the people in charge of killing Zeta wouldn't know what real performance is anyway. After all PCS, you drive a FWD antiquated piece of technology and think EPII is something to get excited about. Woo, a Camry wannabe!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Poor old Borger. You really are taking this quite hard, aren't you?

It'll be ok, though. I'm sure you'll get a few of those lovely Toyota buyers to stop in and buy whatever you guys at GME design on your coffee breaks after their Corolla gets a few tearing body panels or their Camry comes down with a case of a bum transmission. After all, that's all that ever matters right? Being bigger, but not better, than Toyota and not having any real advantage in the market or any real appeal? Like it always sort of has been for the past two decades?

Why no previous Camaro for my stopgap ride, I guess is what you're asking, though? Well, let me say, I haven't counted out that particular option, either. :AH-HA_wink:

Like I said, I don't care what you buy, makes no difference to me, you never were a core buyer for GM anyway, but you're the one who said you were buying a Zeta Camaro, not me. I hope you do and don't waffle out, as I think you will. If you do buy it, I might even come to Kin Tucky and take pics of your Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

[Intrepidation]

Like I said, I don't care what you buy, makes no difference to me, you never were a core buyer for GM anyway, but you're the one who said you were buying a Zeta Camaro, not me. I hope you do and don't waffle out, as I think you will. If you do buy it, I might even come to Kin Tucky and take pics of your Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

I have a right to like something better than that which originally was shown what 2 years ago now? And so I do, I like it more the Camaro, hence why it made my sig and the Camaro didn't.

Also, your post further shows the ignorance of GM. I'm not a core buyer...so what? You'd rather not have my sale than have it? That's smart thinking!

Edited March 4, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Blake Noble]

Like I said, I don't care what you buy, makes no difference to me, you never were a core buyer for GM anyway, but you're the one who said you were buying a Zeta Camaro, not me.

Now, we are putting all of our eggs in one basket, Borger. Just because I looked at the Asstra and took a temporary shine to it doesn't mean I was saying no Zeta Camaro ever. The only thing that could ever realistically keep my hands off that car would be an totally asinine price for the base V6 six-speed manual model I want. I'd kill for the car, but, to be totally honest, if you and Carlito-Pinto over at GME set the base price sky high just to see it fail and to satisfy your schadenfreude, then sorry, no sale. No magic Uncle Borger Waffle Mix required in that little recipe, just a few plain facts. It'll be a push to afford twenty-five thousand dollars on top of college loans, but it's a push I will try my damned hardest to make, and anything five-grand over that wouldn't work.

But something in your post troubles me, you didn't come right out and say it, but it's just something I was picking up on, so heed my advice, if you choose to, which I know you probably won't: you would be wise to try your damn hardest to attract my generation to buy GM. You want to find a form of saving grace, well, there's one form of it.

You also forget that my parents have bought a great deal of GM iron during their driving careers, and there has always been at least one GM product in our driveway during my childhood, as a result of their good experiences with GM cars. I have many a great memory with GM products and always, for some reason that I don't even understand, followed what the company was producing in the hundred of issues of Car & Driver I got as a child in the subscriptions I got from my uncle for Christmas. I've also aspired to design for the company since a small child as well, and actually do plan to go to college to follow through on my dream. And I, personally, have already owned two used GM products myself and have had great luck with them. It is all ... no, it is pretty much the very reason I am here on these forums posting. And I would love nothing more to keep buying GM in the near and far future. What exactly makes me not a "core buyer?" If I'm not, then I guess I have the potential to be one. What makes my money worth less, Borger? I don't think you have even a horrible answer for that one.

However, I will not hesitate to go to another automaker that produces a car that fits all of my criteria. I may be a GM enthusiast, but I am not a blind follower.

I hope you do and don't waffle out, as I think you will. If you do buy it, I might even come to Kin Tucky and take pics of your Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

I'll make sure to detail it really nice for you then, Borger. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 4, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Northstar]

Like I said, I don't care what you buy, makes no difference to me, you never were a core buyer for GM anyway, but you're the one who said you were buying a Zeta Camaro, not me. I hope you do and don't waffle out, as I think you will. If you do buy it, I might even come to Kin Tucky and take pics of your Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

My family has never bought anything non-GM to my knowledge. Perhaps you would listen to me then, or are you just blind on the issue all together?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Like I said, I don't care what you buy, makes no difference to me, you never were a core buyer for GM anyway, but you're the one who said you were buying a Zeta Camaro, not me. I hope you do and don't waffle out, as I think you will. If you do buy it, I might even come to Kin Tucky and take pics of your Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

This was meant for yellowjacket and no one else.

[SAmadei]

Like I said, I don't care what you buy, makes no difference to me, you never were a core buyer for GM anyway, but you're the one who said you were buying a Zeta Camaro, not me. I hope you do and don't waffle out, as I think you will. If you do buy it, I might even come to Kin Tucky and take pics of your Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

Core buyers for GM:

Car Rental joints.

Dying Senior Citizens so doped up on meds they don't know what they drive.

People so broke they have to buy whatever has the biggest incentive.

Heh... I'm not a core buyer, either.

[Northstar]

This was meant for yellowjacket and no one else.

I realize you were not directing it at me. Do you care to answer my question?

[Robert Hall]

Borger/PCS is a troublemaker...best to just ignore his taunts. He said he was going away because his employer (which he claims is GM) wanted him to, then he pops up again a few days later. Who knows what his agenda is, but he seems to enjoy stirring up trouble here...

[NOS2006]

According to you it's not as good-looking. I would take this over the cars you mentioned. It's much more modern looking than the Camaro or Mustang. And who says it will be more expensive? The G8 is only $30k with a V8 and that includes dual-zone climate, premium sound system, 18" inch wheels, and 361HP. A Mustang with premium sound, 18" wheels, and 300HP is $28.5k. Not much of a difference and the G8 has a better interior and dual-zone climate that the Mustang does not have (there are probably other small differences as well). So you really think the G8 coupe would be that much more expensive than the sedan? I doubt it.

IRS, better suspension altogether, yadda yadda. As I mentioned earlier, if they produced this before the Camaro (which they wouldn't), I would bring the Cobalt straight to the dealer and offset getting the Camaro a year or two.

[Camino LS6]

Remember the 'G' in GM is for 'General', as in 'generic', mass audience appliances...that's where the biggest market is...

Biggest market? Sure, but not the only market. Some of us require better.

[K.C.]

Core buyers for GM:

Car Rental joints.

Dying Senior Citizens so doped up on meds they don't know what they drive.

People so broke they have to buy whatever has the biggest incentive.

Heh... I'm not a core buyer, either.

Congratulations, in just six posts you've managed to post the dumbest response I've ever seen on C&G.

Biggest market? Sure, but not the only market. Some of us require better.

The volume market is the market that buys all the cars that pay for the niche products that I believe Camino believes are "better". Its a vernacular term between buyers so what is better to him (and me and others) may not be better to another type of enthusiast. GM needs to give the volume customer base extraordinary vehicles that exceed expectations in every sense of the automotive ownership. What cars that enthusiasts like Camino think are boring, are cars that other people will want to own because of styling, price, fuel economy, utility, etc. etc. etc. Kicking down the volume customer is like biting the hand th feeds us because its their money that goes into the development of performance models that enthusiasts like us drool over.

Edited March 4, 2008 by K.C.

[Blake Noble]

This was meant for yellowjacket and no one else.

That's all nice and well, Borger, sure, but you haven't given any explaination to what appears to be a highly ignorant statement. I am very curious as to why you said that, given everything I have told you: I come from a family where almost nothing but GM products were owned, I currently own a GM product and have before what I own now, I would like to keep buying GM in the future providing they offer what I want, I am an enthusiast for the company and would like to even do so much as to work for it.

[Camino LS6]

Congratulations, in just six posts you've managed to post the dumbest response I've ever seen on C&G.

The volume market is the market that sells all the cars that make the niche products that I believe Camino believes are "better". Its a vernacular term between buyers so what is better to him (and me and others) may not be better to another type of enthusiast. GM needs to give the volume customer base extraordinary vehicles that exceed expectations in every sense of the automotive ownership. What cars that enthusiasts like Camino think are boring, are cars that other people will want to own because of styling, price, fuel economy, utility, etc. etc. etc. Kicking down the volume customer is like biting the hand th feeds us because its their money that goes into the development of performance models that enthusiasts like us drool over.

Not sure exactly what you are trying to say here, but I am in no way advocating kicking the volume customer - I am just saying not to ignore the enthusiast or those that simply want something more than a mundane volume product.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Like I said, I don't care what you buy, makes no difference to me, you never were a core buyer for GM anyway, but you're the one who said you were buying a Zeta Camaro, not me. I hope you do and don't waffle out, as I think you will. If you do buy it, I might even come to Kin Tucky and take pics of your Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink:

What you fail to realize is that a lot of us future Camaro owners ARE core GM buyers. In fact, we come from generations of core GM buyers. Not all of us (actually the majority of us) need the Camaro as a primary car and in the garage beside said Camaro usually sits a vehicle that keeps GM in business (An Epsilon, W-Body or GMT900, etc.)

So go ahead... Piss away your buyer base. Just remember, we are enthusiastic about YOUR job and we spread the word on YOUR successful products via the most effective form of advertising. WE also know a lot of other "like minded" and easy convinced (by us) people. Once GM angers it's core buying base, (enthusiasts and loyal buyers) the company will die... It's as simple as that. GM already doesn't have the money to market the cars themselves, unless it's a "one shot, make it or die" deal like Malibu.

Don't think so? Well, maybe you should check the import vs. domestic cross shopping stats again. Hope you weren't betting on Japan Inc. "core buyers" to replace us.

Oh, what's that? The youth will buy GM, you say? Because they have no anti-Detroit bias? Nah... www.notgonnahappen.com because unless you have cars that the youth aspires to own (READ: Not epsilon sedans) you're not going to even touch those buyers as marketing becomes more fragmented and it becomes more and more difficult to reach them.

I thought GM had finally learned the lesson that PRODUCT is the most important thing in this business. Ya know, VW tried to sell my generation some blandola sedans with chrome icing... Yeah, they just got bought by a NICHE sports car maker.

I certainly hope you have a good retirement package, if GM follows the path some want it to.

[SuperSport623]

to be quite honest, my generation hates GM... which sucks.... so as FOG has said, unless GM makes some damn good appealing product, us young guys are not gonna give a damn. I try to make every biased kid i know give GM a chance, and i defend it pretty hard.. but im losing reasons to everyday... build a car that people lust after.... people may really like a malibu or aura, but its not a car to lust after.... the camaro, g8 and Coupe 60 are cars that will make everyone dream for it.... thats what GM needs

[Robert Hall]

to be quite honest, my generation hates GM... which sucks.... so as FOG has said, unless GM makes some damn good appealing product, us young guys are not gonna give a damn. I try to make every biased kid i know give GM a chance, and i defend it pretty hard.. but im losing reasons to everyday... build a car that people lust after.... people may really like a malibu or aura, but its not a car to lust after.... the camaro, g8 and Coupe 60 are cars that will make everyone dream for it.... thats what GM needs

I try and convince my peers (30 something professionals) that GM makes lust worthy cars, but when a buddy asked if the CTS comes with an AARP card, I felt like giving up..

Pretty much everyone I know in my demographic group drives Japanese or German, with a few American SUV owners (mostly Jeep) mixed in....

The youngin's I know (<30) drive Eclipses, Golfs/Jettas, Civics, and Corollas...

Edited March 4, 2008 by moltar

[smk4565]

Core buyers for GM:

Car Rental joints.

Dying Senior Citizens so doped up on meds they don't know what they drive.

People so broke they have to buy whatever has the biggest incentive.

Heh... I'm not a core buyer, either.

That is hilarious, I love that.

I wonder which group of the 3 is the biggest buyer, I would have said doped up seniors in 2000, but Buick sales are tanking fast, (down another 19% in Feb 08) and GM has cut down on it's geezer-mobiles, people who buy on incentive alone and rental car joints must be running neck and neck. I've gone by 3 different Enterprise lots around here and saw a CTS, there is nothing that GM won't discount and give away.

[hotrod747]

Not really my cup of tea, but with a version of the HF V6 with decent power, I don't see why this car would not sell as a Pontiac G8 or Tempest Coupe.

Edited March 5, 2008 by hotrod747

[Oracle of Delphi]

That's all nice and well, Borger, sure, but you haven't given any explaination to what appears to be a highly ignorant statement. I am very curious as to why you said that, given everything I have told you: I come from a family where almost nothing but GM products were owned, I currently own a GM product and have before what I own now, I would like to keep buying GM in the future providing they offer what I want, I am an enthusiast for the company and would like to even do so much as to work for it.

Call me when you buy the Zeta Camaro. :AH-HA_wink: