Volt: Limited Production in 1st year

[enzl]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevy-volt-hyb...first-year.html

As I've said before....more Volt shuck n jive to come....$25k, no, make that $35k...

That's why you don't put experimental vehicles in current ads--it raises unrealistic expectations.

[The O.C.]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevy-volt-hyb...first-year.html

As I've said before....more Volt shuck n jive to come....$25k, no, make that $35k...

That's why you don't put experimental vehicles in current ads--it raises unrealistic expectations.

This also goes back to your post and my reply in the other thread about the Volt needing to be here TODAY (if not yesterday.)

In another thread, I talked tonight about GM's serious lack of foresight in the marketplace and the damage that has done to the perception of GM as a leading manufacturer in this industry (citing the introduction of GM-10s....as coupes ONLY....2 years after Ford brought us the Taurus, and Camry and Accord sedans gaining quickly in popularity.)

GM has also been slow to react to the whole hybrid debacle....to it's serious detriment. I can tell you....from experience....in their usual arrogance, GM totally dismissed Toyota when Toyota introduced the first Prius....and now it's Toyota laughing their way to the bank.....and it's Toyota being worshipped by all those "greenies" out there....and all those "lemmings" that have to have "the" latest and greatest.

I happen to think hybrids are WAY overrated. But one thing is for sure.....Toyota's introduction of the first Prius and it's much-more-successful second-generation HAS to be THE #1 most significant marketing coup to hit the auto industry in the last 50 years.

Toyota was the first to do it.....and now you can't escape the hybrid craze. Prius'....Civics.....Camrys.....Lexus'.....and GM STILL has yet to come to the table with a fully-competitive, full-hybird, mass market offering. (Malibu and AURA "mild" hybrids don't count.) AND we are now just seeing two-mode hybrids being introduced....in limited production....in SUVs and pickup trucks. Remember, Toyota is getting ready their third-generation Prius even as we speak.

I'll never fork over the money for a hybrid....and the gas-savings simply don't pencil. However, you can never deny the impact they have had on the marketplace and, more importantly, the impact they've had on consumers themselves!

When will GM ever show leadership at this level?

Edited February 26, 2008 by The O.C.

[enzl]

And more good news. GM is now going to be buying its current batteries from Toyota!

http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=840

[Drew Dowdell]

And more good news. GM is now going to be buying its current batteries from Toyota!

http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=840

And this has to do what with the Volt exactly?

Not the same supplier for not the same technology.... in short, completely irrelevant

.

General Motors has opted to buy the nickel-metal hydride batteries for its new two-mode hybrid such as the Cadillac Escalade from a Panasonic-Toyota joint venture, GM officials quietly confirmed for TheCarConnection.

GM spokeswoman Deborah Silveman declined to comment on the dispute involving Cobasys of Orion Township, Michigan, the supplier of the nickel-metal-hydride batteries used for the 2008 Saturn Vue, Saturn Aura and Chevrolet Malibu hybrids that the automaker introduced last fall.

Volt’s wheels are only driven by the vehicle’s electric motors. In turn, those can derive power either from a pack of lithium batteries, or from a small, internal combustion engine which acts like an electric generator.

[Drew Dowdell]

This also goes back to your post and my reply in the other thread about the Volt needing to be here TODAY (if not yesterday.)

In another thread, I talked tonight about GM's serious lack of foresight in the marketplace and the damage that has done to the perception of GM as a leading manufacturer in this industry (citing the introduction of GM-10s....as coupes ONLY....2 years after Ford brought us the Taurus, and Camry and Accord sedans gaining quickly in popularity.)

GM has also been slow to react to the whole hybrid debacle....to it's serious detriment. I can tell you....from experience....in their usual arrogance, GM totally dismissed Toyota when Toyota introduced the first Prius....and now it's Toyota laughing their way to the bank.....and it's Toyota being worshipped by all those "greenies" out there....and all those "lemmings" that have to have "the" latest and greatest.

I happen to think hybrids are WAY overrated. But one thing is for sure.....Toyota's introduction of the first Prius and it's much-more-successful second-generation HAS to be THE #1 most significant marketing coup to hit the auto industry in the last 50 years.

Toyota was the first to do it.....and now you can't escape the hybrid craze. Prius'....Civics.....Camrys.....Lexus'.....and GM STILL has yet to come to the table with a fully-competitive, full-hybird, mass market offering. (Malibu and AURA "mild" hybrids don't count.) AND we are now just seeing two-mode hybrids being introduced....in limited production....in SUVs and pickup trucks. Remember, Toyota is getting ready their third-generation Prius even as we speak.

The next Prius will actually be the 4th generation... 1st gen was Japan only doesn't add anything to the argument, I just like pointing out when you're wrong.

GM effectively will be running 3 levels of hybrid technology simultaniously. Mild <Aura, Malibu>, Medium <Vue, Escalade and Tahoe two mode>, and Hot <Volt>

In terms of level of effectiveness, Toyota's technology falls somewhere between GM's Mild and GM's Medium. The next Prius is supposedly just going to be a more efficient version of the current technology. As additional Two-Modes come online and the Volt enters the arena, GM will effectively pass Toyota in the hybrid race.

I'll never fork over the money for a hybrid....and the gas-savings simply don't pencil. However, you can never deny the impact they have had on the marketplace and, more importantly, the impact they've had on consumers themselves!

When will GM ever show leadership at this level?

Sometimes there are causes greater than just money. Many people buy hybrids not to save money, anyone standing between a Prius and a Corolla can figure that out without a calculator, but they buy them to help the environment or to help reduce our dependence on foreign oil..... yet you refuse to buy a hybrid because they don't save you money <like the CTS does....>

When will you ever show leadership at this level?

[enzl]

And this has to do what with the Volt exactly?

Not the same supplier for not the same technology.... in short, completely irrelevant

.

This is one of the companies working with GM on the Volt battery system as well.

Don't think it's present difficulties bodes well for that project.

Therefore, relevant...especially if the battery co. Disappears....

[pow]

GM effectively will be running 3 levels of hybrid technology simultaniously. Mild <Aura, Malibu>, Medium <Vue, Escalade and Tahoe two mode>, and Hot <Volt>

In terms of level of effectiveness, Toyota's technology falls somewhere between GM's Mild and GM's Medium. The next Prius is supposedly just going to be a more efficient version of the current technology. As additional Two-Modes come online and the Volt enters the arena, GM will effectively pass Toyota in the hybrid race.

Toyota has sold over 1.2 million hybrids; GM has sold just over 10,000. The two-modes in 2008 will add another 10K, while the future of BAS AURA/Malibu availability is uncertain due to supply issues (regular production '08s halted because of leaky battery, now this news about Cobasys). Future hybrids/plug-ins announced so far (2009 VUE Two-Mode, 2011 VUE Plug-In, 2011 Volt) are also limited production. Meanwhile Toyota, too, plans to expand their hybrid lineup.

The Volt project is real, and I'm confident GM can do it -- they have to. But I think we have to readjust our expectations after all the initial hype. Remember Volt was nothing more than a hastily-created, PowerPoint-engineered design concept at 2007 NAIAS, with theoretical specifications and, later, unsubstantiated production claims (<$30K and 60K first-year volume). Faced with reality and what GM has learned during actual development, these claims and expectations have inevitably been lowered. But the Volt will arrive nevertheless.

[pow]

This is one of the companies working with GM on the Volt battery system as well.

Don't think it's present difficulties bodes well for that project.

Therefore, relevant...especially if the battery co. Disappears....

TCC confused the 2011 VUE Plug-In with the 2011 Volt. The VUE will use A123 cells packed by Cobasys, the supplier in question.

The Volt will use two different suppliers: A123 cells (iron phosphate) packed by Continental (first pack arrived 1/31/08) and LG Chem cells (manganese oxide) packed by CPI (third pack arrived two weeks ago).

Edited February 28, 2008 by empowah

[The O.C.]

The next Prius will actually be the 4th generation... 1st gen was Japan only doesn't add anything to the argument, I just like pointing out when you're wrong.

<bitch slap>

Listen Joan Collins....don't f*ck with me.....

(j/k)

[The O.C.]

GM effectively will be running 3 levels of hybrid technology simultaniously. Mild <Aura, Malibu>, Medium <Vue, Escalade and Tahoe two mode>, and Hot <Volt>

I think this is good.....and don't get me wrong....I take nothing away from the current Malibu and AURA hybrids....other than the fact that GM is touting them as "Prius-worthy" (for lack of a better description) when they are not.

The two-modes are awesome......

GM just needs to accelerate the game. I just wish the Volt was here NOW.....now THAT would be a major slap in the face of every other carmaker out there.....and a big "slap in the face" is what GM needs right now.

(Just like.....where's the Camaro?????)

[regfootball]

Toyota has sold over 1.2 million hybrids; GM has sold just over 10,000. The two-modes in 2008 will add another 10K, while the future of BAS AURA/Malibu availability is uncertain due to supply issues (regular production '08s halted because of leaky battery, now this news about Cobasys). Future hybrids/plug-ins announced so far (2009 VUE Two-Mode, 2011 VUE Plug-In, 2011 Volt) are also limited production. Meanwhile Toyota, too, plans to expand their hybrid lineup.

The Volt project is real, and I'm confident GM can do it -- they have to. But I think we have to readjust our expectations after all the initial hype. Remember Volt was nothing more than a hastily-created, PowerPoint-engineered design concept at 2007 NAIAS, with theoretical specifications and, later, unsubstantiated production claims (<$30K and 60K first-year volume). Faced with reality and what GM has learned during actual development, these claims and expectations have inevitably been lowered. But the Volt will arrive nevertheless.

and global warming is a marketing campaign from a powerpoint that ended up on film, too. a sham is a sham.

Edited February 28, 2008 by regfootball

[pow]

and global warming is a marketing campaign from a powerpoint that ended up on film, too. a sham is a sham.

No, they're quite different.. scientists did the research first, then gore created his film. gm released the volt first, then proceeded to develop it.

All i'm saying is that as engineers get closer to the final product, we'll have expectations (volume and price) different from what was touted before the project started, because we now have actual development going on

[enzl]

TCC confused the 2011 VUE Plug-In with the 2011 Volt. The VUE will use A123 cells packed by Cobasys, the supplier in question.

The Volt will use two different suppliers: A123 cells (iron phosphate) packed by Continental (first pack arrived 1/31/08) and LG Chem cells (manganese oxide) packed by CPI (third pack arrived two weeks ago).

Sorry for the misinformation.....I was sourcing TCC (my bad)

[enzl]

All i'm saying is that as engineers get closer to the final product, we'll have expectations (volume and price) different from what was touted before the project started, because we now have actual development going on

Which is MY issue with this whole thing.

You roll out a concept with no engineering done, then you make all sorts of claims about price, volume, intro date...then GM compounds the offense with continual conflicting info about the status of the project & using the Volt in Ad campaigns...and NOW we find out that there are all sorts of challenges to overcome?

It sends a message that GM still can't shoot straight....which is the last thing they need right now.

The Two-mode is supposed to be an excellent system---the parallel development seems silly when you're projecting NA losses until '11...

[GXT]

The Volt was primarily a PR stunt and on that level it seems to have succeeded (for now). GM was already making commercials before they had half a clue about the vehicle (see their recent announcements about aerodynamics and stereo power usage). Even on this board so many seemed to have no sense of what was actually going on.

Most of the misinformation has come from Lutz. I would really love to know what is going through his head when he spouts off. Does he think he is telling the truth? Does he think he has a responsibility to wait for accurate information before speaking? I have to assume that there is so much bull swirling around the Volt that it is hard to know what is fact and what is fiction. Perhaps the guesses are officially part of GM's agenda.

Speaking of which, this is a humorous interview with Dee Allen, "Bob Lutz’ communication guy". What a joke GM and the Volt have become!

http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/02/29/more-det...icing-the-volt/

How was GM to know what kind of electrical power draw a car has? I sure hope GM can figure out how to solve the massive power draw of an 8-speaker stereo.

[PurdueGuy]

How was GM to know what kind of electrical power draw a car has?

I hope you're joking...

[siegen]

I've been thinking from the start that GM should have stayed tight-lipped on the Volt until they were closer to a viable production car. But I understand the need to get the word out, and it seems to have worked at least in part, although there is certainly some backlash.

It reminds me of Honda's V10 problem. They gave a promise of a V10 and are having trouble delivering a suitable body to house the V10. They should have stayed tight lipped until they had a favorable concept vehicle design.

Look at the Honda FCX, a car considerably more challenging than the Volt. No information leaks. The concept was shown at an auto show and a mere 3 years later it is hitting the roads in full production readiness (which happens to be this summer).

[PurdueGuy]

The concept was shown at an auto show and a mere 3 years later it is hitting the roads in full production readiness (which happens to be this summer).

full production readiness? How is limited production and lease only "full production readiness"? It does seem to be a well developed product, and is probably closer to full scale production than, say, the Equinox fuel cell vehicle, but I'm not sure I'd say it's there yet. How much is Honda losing on these vehicles (or would lose if they were selling them)?

[siegen]

full production readiness? How is limited production and lease only "full production readiness"? It does seem to be a well developed product, and is probably closer to full scale production than, say, the Equinox fuel cell vehicle, but I'm not sure I'd say it's there yet. How much is Honda losing on these vehicles (or would lose if they were selling them)?

The reason I chose those words was to imply that the vehicle is ready for production. The costs are not entirely under control, as each one is still very expensive (didn't it take over 3-4 years before hybrids became profitable?); however, it can be built in entirety and put into the hands of a consumer as with a normal vehicle. It is fully certified and safety tested. The time between the first peep of information of the concept and cars hitting the roads in the hands of consumers (even on a small lease scale) is a little under 3 years.

Has GM announced an official release date for the Volt yet? If GM can get them out in late 2009 or very early 2010, that would be about a 3-year delay between concept and production.

And if they managed that, the biggest mistake I think they have made is making too many promises and then letting their development problems get out in the public. There's no doubt that Honda had just as much trouble building the Clarity, but you don't hear about the problems they had, because they stay very tight lipped. And they didn't make many promises as to the abilities of the car.

[Z-06]

And if they managed that, the biggest mistake I think they have made is making too many promises and then letting their development problems get out in the public. There's no doubt that Honda had just as much trouble building the Clarity, but you don't hear about the problems they had, because they stay very tight lipped. And they didn't make many promises as to the abilities of the car.

Although I agree with you that development should not be public about the product that is still conceptual and Honda did not make promises is a good point there are a few points you need to understand as to why GM thumped their chest.

1. Greenies view GM as an environment killer. Has a Honda dealership been destroyed by a Green Movement? Do people paint Kill Fridgeline on it? The movie who killed the electric car had GM as a villain not Honda. Like it or not GM has to sell its cars to the people who are part of these, either performing those actions by believing in what has been told. In short, GM had to convey people that it is changing perceptions.

2. All the times are speculations. Mercedes just showed off the battery with Li-Ion in a full production guise. I will not be surprised that MB, BMW and GM are working in sync for the Li-Ion technology just like the hybrid transmissions.

3. Another way to see is just like Lutz likes to play hard, by getting out in public he is forcing the company to meet or exceed the demands or get blown down and out forever. This may be a bold and brilliant strategy. Show fear in the eyes of the employees and the goods will be delivered.

4. I can understand about Chevy being boisterous in US, what about CPF's talk in Germany with Flextreme? They claimed it to be 50mpg. Do you think Europeans will believe in that BS? Considering the image Opel has, it would be a huge mistake.

[siegen]

Although I agree with you that development should not be public about the product that is still conceptual and Honda did not make promises is a good point there are a few points you need to understand as to why GM thumped their chest.

1. Greenies view GM as an environment killer. Has a Honda dealership been destroyed by a Green Movement? Do people paint Kill Fridgeline on it? The movie who killed the electric car had GM as a villain not Honda. Like it or not GM has to sell its cars to the people who are part of these, either performing those actions by believing in what has been told. In short, GM had to convey people that it is changing perceptions.

2. All the times are speculations. Mercedes just showed off the battery with Li-Ion in a full production guise. I will not be surprised that MB, BMW and GM are working in sync for the Li-Ion technology just like the hybrid transmissions.

3. Another way to see is just like Lutz likes to play hard, by getting out in public he is forcing the company to meet or exceed the demands or get blown down and out forever. This may be a bold and brilliant strategy. Show fear in the eyes of the employees and the goods will be delivered.

4. I can understand about Chevy being boisterous in US, what about CPF's talk in Germany with Flextreme? They claimed it to be 50mpg. Do you think Europeans will believe in that BS? Considering the image Opel has, it would be a huge mistake.

Honda (and Toyota) certainly have it easier than GM when it comes to the greenies. I did say that I understand the need to get the word out about the Volt. It might very well have been worse for GM to have kept their lips closed until they were ready. They got the word out and received positive "green" press, which was the idea. Then there was the backlash. It was probably worth it, in my opinion, to suffer the backlash in order to have a good year of press (as opposed to if they had first shown the vehicle last January or next). Although I think they could have refrained from giving out so much information right away; but like you said it may have been a strategy and made it so they can't live it down. The release date of course is the touchiest subject, followed closely by the batteries. I don't think not giving a release date would have been an option. So it was a big gamble.

[CARBIZ]

"Under promise and over perform" are sage words for those in engineering, design and marketing. I don't know that GM had much of a choice. They had to do something to wrestle the PR agenda away from Toyota and Honda. I like the remarks about Lutz.

Remember Henry Ford's timely words,"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you will be right."

[enzl]

Apparently, some other top GM management disagree with Mr. Lutz:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog...launch-in-2010/

10 Cities may get the Volt!

Woo. That's underpromising...eh, too easy.

[siegen]

Apparently, some other top GM management disagree with Mr. Lutz:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog...launch-in-2010/

10 Cities may get the Volt!

Woo. That's underpromising...eh, too easy.

I would prefer a restricted launch, than for them to sell 40k countrywide and have an unforeseen problem arise and every automotive person on the planet would be blasting them for it.

But, I don't understand what is taking so long. Hybrids have been around in mass production since 1999. GM has plenty of experience with electric-only cars. The only particularly new thing about this car is the battery. You would think the combined effort of GM's engineers could solve the battery problem in less than 4 years (assuming they are even selling in mass volumes by then).

Can anyone guess, who this quote is from? (without searching it! :AH-HA_wink:)

"It is possible to mass produce a plug-in hybrid within two to three years, however I do not think that it would contribute to CO2 reduction."

[Drew Dowdell]

Lutz.

I agree with you about the Volt taking so long to come to market. However, the Volt wasn't really intended to go to market when it was presented. It was only the public's response once they saw it that pushed GM to make it. So we really are seeing the Volt come to production from the very begining rather than being shown the concept 2 years into it.

The saddest part about all of this isn't the Volt at all. It's the Camaro. If the Volt comes to market even close to schedule, it will have taken GM less time to put this radically new concept on the road than it took to get a rather technologically unremarkable car on an existing platform out.

[enzl]

Lutz.

I agree with you about the Volt taking so long to come to market. However, the Volt wasn't really intended to go to market when it was presented. It was only the public's response once they saw it that pushed GM to make it. So we really are seeing the Volt come to production from the very begining rather than being shown the concept 2 years into it.

The saddest part about all of this isn't the Volt at all. It's the Camaro. If the Volt comes to market even close to schedule, it will have taken GM less time to put this radically new concept on the road than it took to get a rather technologically unremarkable car on an existing platform out.

Both paragraphs exemplify my utter frusrtration with GM. The Volt is brilliant (if it can be made to work)--but the promises made were premature and irresponsible, IMO.

The Camaro kills me, but the family of Zetas that have been sacrificed on the altar of a GMT900 pull-ahead and lame CAFE excuses is beyond reason.

I sometimes feel like the Lambdas or the CTS are the exceptions to the general malaise over at GM, rather than a harbinger of better days.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

I sometimes feel like the Lambdas or the CTS are the exceptions to the general malaise over at GM, rather than a harbinger of better days.

If you think that the Lambdas and CTS are not the poof of the turnround at a Global GM THEN YOU ARE A FOOL. Edited March 13, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[enzl]

If you think that the Lambdas and CTS are not the poof of the turnround at a Global GM THEN YOU ARE A FOOL.

Though they might be 'proof', I don't thnk they're 'poof' of anything.

Let's see more than 5% of the portfolio undergo similar changes and I will reserve the right to change my opinion. Until then, a casual glance at the rest of the line-up tells me its business as usual down at the tubes. Corvette, Big Trucks, one decent Epsilon and a pile of crap...yes, that's a world-beating, company saving effort.

Edited March 13, 2008 by enzl

[Drew Dowdell]

Corvette, Big Trucks, one decent Epsilon and a pile of crap...yes, that's a world-beating, company saving effort.

plus Lambdas

plus Sigma

2 decent epsilons, plus another around the corner

plus 2 good halo roadsters

Plus Astra

[siegen]

plus 2 good halo roadsters

Plus Astra

Good looking, at least.

[enzl]

plus Lambdas

plus Sigma

2 decent epsilons, plus another around the corner

plus 2 good halo roadsters

Plus Astra

Lambdas are the right CUV at the wrong time. The Sigma, other than current CTS, has been an underachiever ...the two roadsters are good looking--but crappy, and the Astra is the perfect execution of a middle of the road product.

Even with all of your choices...that's 10% of GM's lineup. That's good?

Here's some more heartwarming info on the Volt---battery delays:

http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews...334279820080313

Maybe Fritz, RW and Lutz will get further raises when they file for Bankruptcy protection? Oh, I forgot, their retirement packages are already guaranteed, regardless!

It's BS and all posters know it--how about a few of you being brave enough to admit it?

[The O.C.]

However, the Volt wasn't really intended to go to market when it was presented. It was only the public's response once they saw it that pushed GM to make it. So we really are seeing the Volt come to production from the very begining rather than being shown the concept 2 years into it.

You have GOT to be kidding me....!

You mean to tell me that GM needed to "gauge public response" before they decided to go to market with this important type of product? Are you saying GM needed to be "pushed" to make it...?

OMG.....this is the best example I've ever seen of the sheer lack of foresight GM has always had.....even with competitors such as Toyota shoving it down their throats. How many years has Prius now successfully "gauged public reaction?"

Guess what...? Toyota did GM's research for them. You know what? If GM couldn't see the signs years ago to introduce a better (and mighty-fine looking alternative I'll admit) Prius.....then they deserve to go out of business.

You know....posts like yours just reinforce to me that GM really hasn't changed. They haven't learned from any of their mistakes over the last 30 years. NO ONE, not a single person could have predicted the Prius as being SUCH the success it is now....when that first, low-production, somewhat half-hearted Prius was introduced so many years ago.

Why are we still waiting for GM's (admittedlly seemingly superior) version?

[The O.C.]

I sometimes feel like the Lambdas or the CTS are the exceptions to the general malaise over at GM, rather than a harbinger of better days.

Truly.....(emphasis on "truly") competitive products from GM......?

CTS

Lambdas

Malibu

That's sad for a corporation with 8 brands......

[The O.C.]

plus Lambdas

plus Sigma

2 decent epsilons, plus another around the corner

plus 2 good halo roadsters

Plus Astra

Sigma? You have to be kidding me.....(edit: CTS great....STS beyond lackluster.)

ONE decent Epsilon (Malibu)

XLR is in no way a "halo" roadster (edit: unless you meant Solstice and SKY? Which are poorly-conceived and executed at best.)

Edit my list of three to include Corvette and, maybe (most-likely) Astra.

Edited March 15, 2008 by The O.C.

[enzl]

Sigma? You have to be kidding me.....(edit: CTS great....STS beyond lackluster.)

ONE decent Epsilon (Malibu)

XLR is in no way a "halo" roadster (edit: unless you meant Solstice and SKY? Which are poorly-conceived and executed at best.)

Edit my list of three to include Corvette and, maybe (most-likely) Astra.

You've got to give them the GMT900's as well.

I just look at 2 of 3 'premium' brands (3 of 4 if you stretch to include Buick) and I don't see a product that I'm remotely interested in,

Hummer is simply irrelevant to a broad swath of potential users & a pick-up H3T isn't much of a brand extender to me. Saab is as close to a joke as you'd like to venture when you have premium pretentions--the 9-3 is Ok, but expensive, the 9-5 is an antique & the 9-7 is a Trailblazer.

Caddy has CTS as a saving grace--but the rest of the car line-up is mediocre & aging. The Escalade actually makes much more sense than the XLR & STS at this point.

Ford & GM have not been astute in exploiting the upmarket growth--Lexus, BMW & now even Audi are eating their lunch from the top just as the Japanese have gutted their middle market. $5-15k in profits are more than possible with cars...but only the right ones.

[CARBIZ]

The 2-mode Tahoes and Silverados are going to be the right product at the right time. Things could just as easily turn on Toyota. Their billion dollar truck plant is starting to look like a boondoggle. Granted, they can afford a few boondoggles, but GM probably figured that, too, 15 years ago.

We often have this argument, you and I, about GM having to have segment busting vehicles in every segment. Nothing GM does at this point is ever going to return it to the glory days of 20 years ago. Nothing. What GM needs to figure out, is how to be profitable at 20% market share, close enough dealers to keep it there, refresh its portfolio more frequently than every 6 or 7 years, and (most importantly) market itself better.

GM was living in a fool's paradise at 45% market share. No company can ever hope to sustain that. Look at Microsoft's market valuation tumbling. Where are the Rockefellers today? The challenge for those at the bottom of the ladder (like me ) is how to adapt in this new reality.

Fortunately, for me I started in the car business just as GM began its real downward spiral (late '97). I never knew what it was like to sell cars in the Good Old Days. I am used to fighting for every customer and picking the fights I can win. All around me, I see the old timers who have been selling cars for 20-30 years and they look shell-shocked.

The Volt will hit the market. GM knows it has to. It will probably be late. It may fall short of our expectations, but a lot of Toyota's recent releases have fallen short of the mark, too. Five years from now, we will still be having this argument, but I will bet that GM will still be number one, Toyota number 2 and we will find all new threats and challenges to spar over.

EDIT: Will bet? Ha! I have bet. I turned my old company down flat by working for their Toyota store (I don't suppose sending the Jalopnik picture of the Toyota NASCAR team being towed by the Silverado helped my cause :AH-HA_wink: ) I am betting my life, my mortgage and my future on the future of GM.

Edited March 15, 2008 by CARBIZ

[Drew Dowdell]

Sigma? You have to be kidding me.....(edit: CTS great....STS beyond lackluster.)

ONE decent Epsilon (Malibu)

XLR is in no way a "halo" roadster (edit: unless you meant Solstice and SKY? Which are poorly-conceived and executed at best.)

Edit my list of three to include Corvette and, maybe (most-likely) Astra.

I meant the Kappas.... why are the Kappas poorly conceived? They look great and sell well. Probably have a decent profit for a limited production vehicle too... all the hardware is off the shelf.

XLR is a good car. It gets poor reviews because it's an in between car amongst it's competitors. It's much sportier than the Lexus and Jag but it doesn't have the HP of the SL.... but doesn't have the price tag either.

I'd say the Aura is the other decent Epsilon. It's the dealer network that is failing it. The one I drove felt like a FWD CTS at a $10,000 discount.

9-3 after the refresh is also good... but it's expected to be a 3-series when it isn't intended to be by Saab. It has top notch crash ratings. Great powertrain selection. Sweedish quirky interior. No... it's not a 3-series.... that's the point.

Sigma.... CTS v.1 Put Cadillac back on the car map. CTS v.2 Changed the entry lux game in the American's favor. STS.. doesn't do harm to Cadillac's image... and I've been seeing LOTS of the refreshed one around. SRX v.1 consistently rated one of the best handling mid-sized, mid-lux crossovers. SRX v.1.5 maintains the performance of the original, adds fantabulous interior. That GM didn't get the SRX product mix right is no fault of the platform. Yeah, Sigma is a total dud.

And not that I'm saying the W-body is great but, Impala retail sales are still up in the face of newer cars from Ford, Honda, Toyota, and even Chevy.

[enzl]

I meant the Kappas.... why are the Kappas poorly conceived? They look great and sell well. Probably have a decent profit for a limited production vehicle too... all the hardware is off the shelf.

XLR is a good car. It gets poor reviews because it's an in between car amongst it's competitors. It's much sportier than the Lexus and Jag but it doesn't have the HP of the SL.... but doesn't have the price tag either.

I'd say the Aura is the other decent Epsilon. It's the dealer network that is failing it. The one I drove felt like a FWD CTS at a $10,000 discount.

9-3 after the refresh is also good... but it's expected to be a 3-series when it isn't intended to be by Saab. It has top notch crash ratings. Great powertrain selection. Sweedish quirky interior. No... it's not a 3-series.... that's the point.

Sigma.... CTS v.1 Put Cadillac back on the car map. CTS v.2 Changed the entry lux game in the American's favor. STS.. doesn't do harm to Cadillac's image... and I've been seeing LOTS of the refreshed one around. SRX v.1 consistently rated one of the best handling mid-sized, mid-lux crossovers. SRX v.1.5 maintains the performance of the original, adds fantabulous interior. That GM didn't get the SRX product mix right is no fault of the platform. Yeah, Sigma is a total dud.

And not that I'm saying the W-body is great but, Impala retail sales are still up in the face of newer cars from Ford, Honda, Toyota, and even Chevy.

Have you driven either a Kappa or XLR? Compromised.

The Aura is, pretty much, a failure--DOA Car of the Year? Only at GM.

The 9-3's have between 4-8k on the hood, perpetually. It's the world's best Opel. I've owned a 'real' Saab. The 9-3 ain't one.

And the SRX is another great product, killed by GM errors.

So, what lesson should we draw from the above? That the odds of GM rolling out a slew of well designed, unique & well marketed product is slight. Their margin for error is about as close to zero as possible. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

[The O.C.]

You've got to give them the GMT900's as well.

I just look at 2 of 3 'premium' brands (3 of 4 if you stretch to include Buick) and I don't see a product that I'm remotely interested in,

Hummer is simply irrelevant to a broad swath of potential users & a pick-up H3T isn't much of a brand extender to me. Saab is as close to a joke as you'd like to venture when you have premium pretentions--the 9-3 is Ok, but expensive, the 9-5 is an antique & the 9-7 is a Trailblazer.

Caddy has CTS as a saving grace--but the rest of the car line-up is mediocre & aging. The Escalade actually makes much more sense than the XLR & STS at this point.

Ford & GM have not been astute in exploiting the upmarket growth--Lexus, BMW & now even Audi are eating their lunch from the top just as the Japanese have gutted their middle market. $5-15k in profits are more than possible with cars...but only the right ones.

I actually had the GMT-900s on there.....and they certainly sell well, so maybe they SHOULD be on there. AND, I personally like them.....but I do have to agree that functionally-speaking, they are a step-or-two behind the others in some critical areas such as 3rd seat roominess, stow-ability of the seats, and lack of IRS (which contributes to the former.) Lamdas are FAR ahead here, as far as I'm concerned......

The rest of your post I totally agree with.......

[The O.C.]

I meant the Kappas.... why are the Kappas poorly conceived? They look great and sell well. Probably have a decent profit for a limited production vehicle too... all the hardware is off the shelf.

XLR is a good car. It gets poor reviews because it's an in between car amongst it's competitors. It's much sportier than the Lexus and Jag but it doesn't have the HP of the SL.... but doesn't have the price tag either.

I'd say the Aura is the other decent Epsilon. It's the dealer network that is failing it. The one I drove felt like a FWD CTS at a $10,000 discount.

9-3 after the refresh is also good... but it's expected to be a 3-series when it isn't intended to be by Saab. It has top notch crash ratings. Great powertrain selection. Sweedish quirky interior. No... it's not a 3-series.... that's the point.

Sigma.... CTS v.1 Put Cadillac back on the car map. CTS v.2 Changed the entry lux game in the American's favor. STS.. doesn't do harm to Cadillac's image... and I've been seeing LOTS of the refreshed one around. SRX v.1 consistently rated one of the best handling mid-sized, mid-lux crossovers. SRX v.1.5 maintains the performance of the original, adds fantabulous interior. That GM didn't get the SRX product mix right is no fault of the platform. Yeah, Sigma is a total dud.

And not that I'm saying the W-body is great but, Impala retail sales are still up in the face of newer cars from Ford, Honda, Toyota, and even Chevy.

Kappas......

Extremely poor soft-top design, next-to-no luggage space (even worse with top down), poorly-executed interiors (SKY slightly better due to center stack) that use extremely cheap materials all around, flabby, unsupportive seats, and very poor ergonomics (such as cupholder and window switch locations.) Does it really sell better than Miata on a sales-per-dealership level? Or does the sheer number of Pontiac dealers (compared to Mazda dealers) contribute to this?

XLR......

Unexceptional interior (good for a GM car....unsubstantial for it's market segment) combined with Corvette-like flabby, unsupportive seats. (Again...) lack of luggage space, even worse with top down (even compared to SL which has a similar folding hardtop.) As far as the Jag, I'd argue, based on everything I'm reading, that the new XK would be the sportier of the two (XK versus XLR.) Finally, in order to get an XLR that will run with an SL, you need to step up to the XLR-v....with an SL550-rivaling pricetag.....

AURA......

Interior, and the interior alone, simply kills this car......plus what's the pushrod 3.5L doing in the lineup?

SAAB.....

Doesn't matter how "okay" the "new" 9-3 is.....GM has killed this brand by taking away almost all of it's individuality (a 9-7 "TrailBlazer" for goodness sakes?) And frankly, as archaic as the 9-5 is, to me, it still upholds way more traditional SAAB "traits" than the 9-3 does......

Sigma.....

We haven't seen YET if the CTS-v (v.2) HAS changed the game in our favor. It looks fantastic and promising......but it's still also a huge game of brand equity....something the M5, AMG E/CLS63, and to a lesser-extent, the S6 have in spades over Cadillac at this time.

STS is an also-ran. Not a bad car maybe....but it's an Acura RL to the CTS' TL.....doesn't really give you any more luxury, room, or driving pleasure for the added cost over a CTS (especially the '08 CTS.)

W-Body.....

Retail sales or not.....it's still an old architecture with old powertrains......certainly doesn't belong on my list above.......

Not trying to turn this into a rag-fest on all these cars.....just responding as to why I didn't include them on my list above.

[Blake Noble]

W-Body.....

Retail sales or not.....it's still an old architecture with old powertrains...

Each moment GM spends building and selling W-Body cars is a moment that could have been better spent developing and designing a much better car.

Edited March 24, 2008 by YellowJacket894