Science magazine declares ethanol worse for the Earth than fossil fuels

[regfootball]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/21/science...rth-than-fossi/

Jon Markman at MSN Money doesn't hold back when he says "Corn-based ethanol production is sure to go down as one of the greatest mistakes ever in U.S. energy policy." It's even more provoking when he writes "replacing fossil fuels with corn-based ethanol would double greenhouse gas emissions over the next three decades. The studies show that switchgrass, an alternative to ethanol that's more weed than plant, would boost emissions by 50%."

Edited February 22, 2008 by regfootball

[CARBIZ]

It's all relative. The oil that oozed out of the ground (see: Beverly Hillbilllies) and cost next to nothing to process is all gone. It is now nothing more than degrees. Ethanol, in my opinion is nothing more than a temporary measure - a way to stretch out the already exhausted U.S. domestic supply. None of the alternative energy sources have zero carbon footprint. Not solar, not nuclear, not windmills, nada. After all, each of those sources requires a lot of technology and manufacturing to begin their life cycles , plus maintenance of equipment.

We can dance around the subject for the next 50 years, but the bottom line is that as a civilization, humanity is going to have to figure out how to make an economy flourish, and keep our planet running on ZERO growth. The developing world has to stop breeding like rabbits and the developed world has to learn how to prosper without growth. There are plenty of resources on this planet to go around, but we can't keep growing our economies (or populations) at 3% a year and not expect some serious fall out in the near future.

When you think about it, our entire economy is nothing more than a gigantic pyramid scheme. Figure out how to acheive prosperity without that pyramid and I warrant all of our problems will be solved. All of them.

[Intrepidation]

Further Proof that hydrogen is the fuel of the future.

[Robert Hall]

The world is severely overpopulated now...I think we need mass sterilization..I don't know if there are technologies that could be use to sterilize the masses through the water supply or food, but the indiscriminate breeding needs to stop.

[Intrepidation]

The world is severely overpopulated now...I think we need mass sterilization..I don't know if there are technologies that could be use to sterilize the masses through the water supply or food, but the indiscriminate breeding needs to stop.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Well D'uh. Corn is the worst crop imaginable to make ethanol. Other sources for ethanol may prove cleaner... although im still a fan of Hydrogen.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

The problem is that all types of farming creates a huge 'footprint.' At least Brazilian sugarcane is a more efficient process than corn, but I doubt we will ever see that in THIS country.

[siegen]

I have a brilliant idea. Simply brilliant!

I have been working on the prototype for quite some time now. It will solve all of our fuel problems without impacting the corn supply. And not only this, it will single-handedly solve America's obesity problem!

Here are some technical documents for my invention. They are quite technical and designed for engineers, so normal folk might not grasp them, but I can assure you, the system is quite simple in execution.

[the_yellow_dart]

I have a brilliant idea. Simply brilliant!

I have been working on the prototype for quite some time now. It will solve all of our fuel problems without impacting the corn supply. And not only this, it will single-handedly solve America's obesity problem!

Here are some technical documents for my invention. They are quite technical and designed for engineers, so normal folk might not grasp them, but I can assure you, the system is quite simple in execution.

On a more serious note...

I've always wondered why exercise bikes and elliptical trainers both use motors to impede the force you apply to them without generating electricity from it. You could be pushing back out into the grid when you're on one of them. It wouldn't be much power, but people are going to use these things regardless if they make electricity or not, so why not use the free power?

[Camino LS6]

The assumption that ethanol production will depend on corn is a fatal flaw in the argument. Corn is a very temporary feedstock for ethanol production, so the author's premise is based on an incorrect assumption.

[A Horse With No Name]

Further Proof that hydrogen is the fuel of the future.

I know a physics professor at The Ohio State University who would profoundly agree with you.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

It's all relative. The oil that oozed out of the ground (see: Beverly Hillbilllies) and cost next to nothing to process is all gone. It is now nothing more than degrees. Ethanol, in my opinion is nothing more than a temporary measure - a way to stretch out the already exhausted U.S. domestic supply. None of the alternative energy sources have zero carbon footprint. Not solar, not nuclear, not windmills, nada. After all, each of those sources requires a lot of technology and manufacturing to begin their life cycles , plus maintenance of equipment.

We can dance around the subject for the next 50 years, but the bottom line is that as a civilization, humanity is going to have to figure out how to make an economy flourish, and keep our planet running on ZERO growth. The developing world has to stop breeding like rabbits and the developed world has to learn how to prosper without growth. There are plenty of resources on this planet to go around, but we can't keep growing our economies (or populations) at 3% a year and not expect some serious fall out in the near future.

When you think about it, our entire economy is nothing more than a gigantic pyramid scheme. Figure out how to acheive prosperity without that pyramid and I warrant all of our problems will be solved. All of them.

The largest problem here is religion. The Hindus in India don't want to be overpopulated by the Muslims, the Muslims want to outpopulate the Christians, the Fundy Christians are reproducing like rabbits, some orthodox Jewish people don't believe in birth control, etc.

Down play the role of religion first, and then you'll be able to start on the population problem, not before.

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Welp...

Looks as if the media is hellbent on killing ALL of the fun cars.

And what a surprise! All this commotion after GM invests heavily in an Ethanol company! Coincidence? Not hardly.

Say hello to your future, enthusiasts. It's called video gaming, since we won't be allowed to have fun cars after roughly 2015.

[CARBIZ]

The largest problem here is religion. The Hindus in India don't want to be overpopulated by the Muslims, the Muslims want to outpopulate the Christians, the Fundy Christians are reproducing like rabbits, some orthodox Jewish people don't believe in birth control, etc.

Down play the role of religion first, and then you'll be able to start on the population problem, not before.

Chris

I, and Copernicus, agree with you.

[loki]

Say hello to your future, enthusiasts. It's called video gaming, since we won't be allowed to have fun cars after roughly 2015.

in 2080P and 7.1 surround... all in a VR helmet.

corn efficiency is somewhere between ~.7x and ~2x from farm to exhaust, depending on scientist... around here a gallon is something like 2.30.

get us fission plants for electric cars for those than want one.

[A Horse With No Name]

Tesla Roadster, anyone?

There will be fun cars in the future, they will just take a very different form from the cars of today.

Or maybe I'll just switch to motorcycles...my wife would kill me before the bike would....

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Tesla Roadster, anyone?

There will be fun cars in the future, they will just take a very different form from the cars of today.

Or maybe I'll just switch to motorcycles...my wife would kill me before the bike would....

Chris

The verdict is still out on Tesla...

I see no fun in electric cars, and as a result NEVER want to HAVE to drive one. Sure, the option would be nice to have for those of us that want it. However, ICE is where it's at for me and a large part of the enthusiast base.

I've thought about switching to motorcycles as well if it gets bad enough.

ICE powerplants can run on much more than gasoline, and that's what people (The general public) seem to be forgetting.

[Intrepidation]

I have a brilliant idea. Simply brilliant!

I have been working on the prototype for quite some time now. It will solve all of our fuel problems without impacting the corn supply. And not only this, it will single-handedly solve America's obesity problem!

Here are some technical documents for my invention. They are quite technical and designed for engineers, so normal folk might not grasp them, but I can assure you, the system is quite simple in execution.

Something like that's been done.

http://www.micheldebroin.org/images/projects/20071026spc.jpg

[buyacargetacheck]

Hydrogen is not an energy source. It's simply a carrier of energy. There are 2 ways to "make" hydrogen:

The first is through electrolysis which means separating the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in water using an electrical current. How is electricity generated? Fossil fuels mostly (natural gas, coal, oil).

The second is by separating the hydrogen from carbon molecules in hydrocarbon fossil fuels like crude oil and natural gas using a "reformer."

So you can see that fossil fuels are the key commodity required to make hydrogen (unless we build a buttload of nuclear power plants to generate electricity). Then, there's the hydrogen infrastructure costs and transporting problem.

Sorry, there will be no hydrogen economy.

Further Proof that hydrogen is the fuel of the future.

Edited March 14, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[Camino LS6]

Hydrogen is not an energy source. It's simply a carrier of energy. There are 2 ways to "make" hydrogen:

The first is through electrolysis which means separating the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in water using an electrical current. How is electricity generated? Fossil fuels mostly (natural gas, coal, oil).

The second is by separating the hydrogen from carbon molecules in hydrocarbon fossil fuels like crude oil and natural gas using a "reformer."

So you can see that fossil fuels are the key commodity required to make hydrogen (unless we build a buttload of nuclear power plants to generate electricity). Then, there's the hydrogen infrastructure costs and transporting problem.

Sorry, there will be no hydrogen economy.

Your facts are out of date. I'll post a link for you shortly.

[Camino LS6]

Here's the link:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=21018

Note the important part: this process produces 288% of the energy used to generate the Hydrogen.

[stillen]

Corn etahnol does not make sense nor does it make cents.

[siegen]

The assumption that ethanol production will depend on corn is a fatal flaw in the argument. Corn is a very temporary feedstock for ethanol production, so the author's premise is based on an incorrect assumption.

Assuming we will always depend on corn is flawed, however for now it is not as flawed of an assumption as we would all like it to be. The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 was recently signed into law, which keeps corn ethanol around in full swing at least until 2022. Cellulosic ethanol will become cost competitive with corn ethanol around 2012, which will start the shift in production away from corn, however corn ethanol production will continue to grow until 2015. You would think by now everyone would see the side effects of using so much corn for fuel, and phase it out, but I guess not. Perhaps in 2023.

Ideally we will move away from crops entirely and just use waste products. Although switchgrass is not a bad crop to use to supplement cellulose ethanol production. It has a better root structure than corn and doesn't allow as much deterioration or erosion of soil. It also supports habitat for insects and ground birds much better than corn, although I'm not sure how much of an effect that will have if the crop is being recycled constantly.

Something like that's been done.

http://www.micheldebroin.org/images/projects/20071026spc.jpg

Is that foot powered? lol seems a bit heavy, probably work better with a CRX. ;]

The first is through electrolysis which means separating the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in water using an electrical current. How is electricity generated? Fossil fuels mostly (natural gas, coal, oil).

I've always been a big solar power advocate. It is still in its early stages and not cost competitive with fossil fuels yet, but it's getting there.

I know that a lot of people do make the mistake of thinking hydrogen will replace fossil fuels. It's like comparing apples to oranges. The first step that needs to be made is to clean up the power plants. Replace them with nuclear plants or solar farms (of course solar will have to become 100x more efficient for that to be feasible), then electric cars will truly be "clean". Once electric cars are truly clean, hydrogen fuel cells can replace the batteries as a more efficient storage medium for electricity.

Edited March 14, 2008 by siegen

[Robert Hall]

We need to find a fuel source that comes from something that doesn't have to be grown..something that is abundant and naturally available. Sand, rock, dirt, something like that...

[CARBIZ]

All of these options are just that - OPTIONS. Think of all the imported oil that could be saved just by mixing ethanol to say, 20%, of standard gasoline. I don't think anybody is seriously advocating corn-based ethanol is going to replace imported oil, but isn't it better to send a few billion dollars a mont LESS money to the Middle East?

Everything is by degrees. The Ontario government is floating the idea (today's headline in the Toyota Star) of creating one of the largest nuclear plants in the world, even bigger than the already huge Darlington plant that we have on our door step. Ontario already generates half its electricity by nuclear, far more than almost any jurisdiction in the world. I think this is a positive step, especially considering Canada has most of the world's uranium ore as well.

Besides, we can always ship the spent nuclear rods to Michigan, thus creating jobs in Michigan, too.

[Camino LS6]

Many, many, feedstocks for ethanol production are coming online now - everything from swichgrass, to old tires, to garbage, to waste paper. Methods of producing hydrogen are multiplying as well. There is movement in solar, wind,and nuclear. What it is going to take will be all of them, but we will get there. Corn is a fine beginning, any domestic source is better than importing oil. The production of corn ethanol also is pushing the ethanol infrastructure to happen now, so it will be in place as cellulosic ethanol begins to displace corn. I have zero problems with corn being used as a transitional or supplemental source. The farmers deserve the benefits they get from it.

Switchgrass is a perennial, so one planting can be productive for years, that is a whole different scenario than corn. It can also be harvested twice in one season, takes less water, needs less fertilizer, needs less cultivation, and causes less erosion and fertilizer runoff as a result. Ethanol will be a majority of our non-oil fuel supply for quite some time. How it is made, and what from, are the things that will change.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

We need to find a fuel source that comes from something that doesn't have to be grown..something that is abundant and naturally available. Sand, rock, dirt, something like that...

Oil shale.

I know that Chevron is currently trying to get the correct temperature to refine shale into oil. Too little heat, and it isn't useful, too much heat and it frys.

Edited March 14, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

BTW: I wonder how much Exxon paid the writer/magazine.

[buyacargetacheck]

Notice that this is merely a process that has been demostrated in a laboratory. Scalability to power even a small slice of the nation's fleet efficiently is another matter all together. Where does the bacteria come from? How is the "external jolt of electricity [that] helps generate hydrogen gas at the cathode" generated? How would it be generated on a large scale? Natural gas power plants? Coal power plants? Where is all this biomass going to come from? Would we need to actually grow the biomass on farms to get the kind of scale we need? Would this require diesel tractors and natural gas-based fertilizer inputs? How about petrochemical pesticides?

The Energy Return on Investment (EROI) is too low. There is no such thing as free. Black gold is the closest and that took millions of years to develop. Sorry, there will be no hydrogen economy.

Here's the link:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=21018

Note the important part: this process produces 288% of the energy used to generate the Hydrogen.

Edited March 14, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[Camino LS6]

Notice that this is merely a process that has been demostrated in a laboratory. Scalability to power even a small slice of the nation's fleet efficiently is another matter all together. Where does the bacteria come from? How is the "external jolt of electricity [that] helps generate hydrogen gas at the cathode" generated? How would it be generated on a large scale? Natural gas power plants? Coal power plants? Where is all this biomass going to come from? Would we need to actually grow the biomass on farms to get the kind of scale we need? Would this require diesel tractors and natural gas-based fertilizer inputs? How about petrochemical pesticides?

The Energy Return on Investment (EROI) is too low. There is no such thing as free. Black gold is the closest and that took millions of years to develop. Sorry, there will be no hydrogen economy.

Read it again.

[CARBIZ]

Unfortunately, none of our future energy stocks will be 'free.' The Alberta tar sands, which are purported to have more obtainable oil than Saudi Arabia, are going to require a lot of energy to extract the oil. Alberta is even considering the possibility of building its first nuclear power plant to provide 'cheap,' sustainable electricity nearby the productive oil deposits.

I think we should bypass all of this and learn how to harness the power of a singularity. Let's skip all the middle-men.

[A Horse With No Name]

I would love to see a singularity....big bang style!

But your right, nothing will be free. I see cars as more secondary types of transport in about 30 years, behind trains, buses, and the good old shoe leather.

Chris

[CARBIZ]

I hope you aren't entirely right! I would imagine that the internal combustion engine as a mode of power will have its day end, but I strongly hope that personal transport in all forms do not disappear. Ever since the wheel was invented, humanity has been striving for better ways of personal transport. I do not look at public transit as an successful social engineering project. Quite the contrary! At least in an elevator, the odds are that you are surrounded with people of similar backgrounds, interests, or at least goals. Public transit is far too egalitarian for me.

If we are to end up jammed into increasingly crowded trains and cities choked with humanity, like Mumbai and Tokyo, then I think more extreme measures need to be taken. I think we need to focus on quality of life for those that are here, rather than the tenet (to coin a phrase from Monty Python), 'Every Sperm is Sacred.'