Why Detroit Loses Money

[The O.C.]

Most people cannot and will not think for themselves. There is comfort and safety in herds.

'BIZ......we go over this time and time again......

People "not thinking for themselves" is the time-honored excuse that we've heard way too often for why more and more people are deserting the domestics for the imports.

Fact of the matter is....people DO think for themselves. Fact is, today, the imports are offering products that are highly desireable to a large portion of the buying public....a large...and growing portion....I might add. Just because they are not desirable to you doesn't mean they aren't to a vast portion of the public.

In reality...no one is making "crap" these days. Even Kia and Hyundai have stepped up the game in ways that none of us could imagine 10 years ago. But....20 years ago, there was a problem with GM and the Big 3 being slow to the game in producing the kind of desirable cars that people were looking to. They let the imports grab it. (Remember GM introducing three divisional 2-door coupes when the rest of the world was moving towards Camry and Accord sedans? Hell even Ford showed them the way in '86 with the new Taurus. Two years' later, in 1988 when the GM-10 coupes arrived, GM still didn't "get it.")

The "Camlee" (in Fly's words) may be almost universally hated on this site.....but truth is, it's still a solid contender in the marketplace offering a kind of mass appeal to the marketplace that has made it the best-selling midsize sedan for...how many years?? If the only reason for Toyota's success with the Camry was because "people cannot and will not think for themselves"....then the same argument just HAS to be made that that's the ONLY reason the Silverado/Sierra is the best-selling full-size truck in the land.

Right??

[enzl]

'BIZ......we go over this time and time again......

People "not thinking for themselves" is the time-honored excuse that we've heard way too often for why more and more people are deserting the domestics for the imports.

Fact of the matter is....people DO think for themselves. Fact is, today, the imports are offering products that are highly desireable to a large portion of the buying public....a large...and growing portion....I might add. Just because they are not desirable to you doesn't mean they aren't to a vast portion of the public.

In reality...no one is making "crap" these days. Even Kia and Hyundai have stepped up the game in ways that none of us could imagine 10 years ago. But....20 years ago, there was a problem with GM and the Big 3 being slow to the game in producing the kind of desirable cars that people were looking to. They let the imports grab it. (Remember GM introducing three divisional 2-door coupes when the rest of the world was moving towards Camry and Accord sedans? Hell even Ford showed them the way in '86 with the new Taurus. Two years' later, in 1988 when the GM-10 coupes arrived, GM still didn't "get it.")

The "Camlee" (in Fly's words) may be almost universally hated on this site.....but truth is, it's still a solid contender in the marketplace offering a kind of mass appeal to the marketplace that has made it the best-selling midsize sedan for...how many years?? If the only reason for Toyota's success with the Camry was because "people cannot and will not think for themselves"....then the same argument just HAS to be made that that's the ONLY reason the Silverado/Sierra is the best-selling full-size truck in the land.

Right??

Forget it. As devistatingly accurate your post is, you still have tons of 'true believers' that simply can't believe that rational people making safe choices will ignore the Big 3...it's a tremendous burden and horrifically bad timing for GM to be turning things around.

Only demonstrably superior (not equal) product will turn the tide. A Volt, delivered tomorrow, isn't just desireable, it's almost necessary.

[The O.C.]

Only demonstrably superior (not equal) product will turn the tide. A Volt, delivered tomorrow, isn't just desireable, it's almost necessary.

You are SO on the money.

A Volt offered TODAY at GM dealerships would be the kind of product impact that GM needs to make to really start making headway at changing the perception.

(I could argue that a new Camaro brought out 2 years ago would have made a similar, but smaller, impact...but alas we STILL have another year to wait.)

[nekweeum]

Sorry. Don't mean to intrude. Just a little comment about the Japanese car market. I was stationed there for several years. The roads are very narrow and can't accommodate most American sized vehicles. Also, public transportation is so well developed that you can get just about anywhere you want to without needing a car at all. It would be a tough market to crack for any automaker.

I purposely went looking for a western vehicle to buy while there but couldn't find one. The only non-domestic cars to be found were Porsche's and VW's. As far as I know, most of what GM sends over there, Hummers and Cadillacs, are not affordable or practical for anyone but the ultra-rich. I think that's why GM spent so much money trying to use Subaru, Suzuki and Isuzu to get a toehold in the Japanese market.

There is a lot of nationalistic pride in their own automakers but also a fascination with western products and culture. They love Canadians just like everybody else.

Edited February 26, 2008 by nekweeum

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

'BIZ......we go over this time and time again......

People "not thinking for themselves" is the time-honored excuse that we've heard way too often for why more and more people are deserting the domestics for the imports.

Fact of the matter is....people DO think for themselves. Fact is, today, the imports are offering products that are highly desireable to a large portion of the buying public....a large...and growing portion....I might add. Just because they are not desirable to you doesn't mean they aren't to a vast portion of the public.

In reality...no one is making "crap" these days. Even Kia and Hyundai have stepped up the game in ways that none of us could imagine 10 years ago. But....20 years ago, there was a problem with GM and the Big 3 being slow to the game in producing the kind of desirable cars that people were looking to. They let the imports grab it. (Remember GM introducing three divisional 2-door coupes when the rest of the world was moving towards Camry and Accord sedans? Hell even Ford showed them the way in '86 with the new Taurus. Two years' later, in 1988 when the GM-10 coupes arrived, GM still didn't "get it.")

The "Camlee" (in Fly's words) may be almost universally hated on this site.....but truth is, it's still a solid contender in the marketplace offering a kind of mass appeal to the marketplace that has made it the best-selling midsize sedan for...how many years?? If the only reason for Toyota's success with the Camry was because "people cannot and will not think for themselves"....then the same argument just HAS to be made that that's the ONLY reason the Silverado/Sierra is the best-selling full-size truck in the land.

Right??

Agreed, but when my neighbor bought his TL, the best he could come up with when I asked why he chose it over, say, a Grand Prix, at the time was: "I was told it was a good car." Then I had some fun with him and asked if it was a 6 or an 8 cylinder. He had no idea. Horsepower? Not a clue. Of course, he also had no idea that it took premium gas. Was he ever shocked. Made him miss the days of his Taurus, actually.

Yes, I also remember my GF's Pony that had the driver's door handle fall off on its 3rd day. The Koreans have made incredible strides in the past dozen years - from complete jokes to contenders. We all agree that the goalposts keep moving, but I also see many of my peers buying imports only because 'so-and-so' said so.

It is also like an avalanche that gains speed as it rolls downhill. The more of your neighbors who buy imported vehicles creates more of an impression that the imports are doing something right. I had to battle my mother-in-law when she got her Park Ave - she was leaning toward a BMW because the girls in her bridge club had them. I took her to test drive one and she was not impressed. I knew she wouldn't be.

[FAPTurbo]

I turned signatures on, and the first one I see is The O.C's, which almost made me die of asphyxiation.

[CARBIZ]

The pickup truck market and the mid-sized sedan market couldn't be more different. Sure, a lot of pick up truck sales are to posers, but then again a lot of them are to people who need something tough and durable, which is why the Ford and GM twins own the market. To place a pick up buyer in the same class as a mid-sized family sedan buyer is...well, naive to be charitable.

It is pretty clear that the Camry has a lot of things going for it, but it seriously is the most boring car on the planet. Nobody that buys one has had a single neuron in their head fire in at least 5 years. Challenge that? The Accord alone is a superior product but does not sell as well. Undoubtedly, the Malibu is going to have an uphill climb against the Camcords out there, but we are cheered by the fact that the Malibu did outsell the Accord in Canada in January. I know one month does not a trend make, but when was the last time GM could even boast that?

What has happened to Detroit in the past 10 years is not alarming, merely inevitable. If GM were to sail below 20% market share, then I would panic, but what GM enjoyed in the '60s and '70s was something that robber barons of the 19th century would have envied. The media is already devouring itself in it own irrelevancy: witness the Malibus top scores with most concerns and 3rd or 4th with others. After beating GM and Ford into near bankruptcy, they are now turning their attentions to Japan. The recent mea culpa from CR about Toyota is testimony to that.

I hate to say this, but $5 a gallon gasoline is going to shut a lot of 'enthusiasts' up and the implosion of the real estate market south of our border is going to realign a lot of people's thinking. Those that clamor for everything with 500 hp and 21 speeds will be silenced into bankruptcy. As the Wallstreet fat cats dump their BMWs and Audis for something more 'practical,' we may see a return to sensibility in the auto market. People might actually start giving a $h! about other people's jobs, once they start losing their own.

[regfootball]

You are SO on the money.

A Volt offered TODAY at GM dealerships would be the kind of product impact that GM needs to make to really start making headway at changing the perception.

(I could argue that a new Camaro brought out 2 years ago would have made a similar, but smaller, impact...but alas we STILL have another year to wait.)

and we have BLOCKBUSTER toyota products to look forward to. the toyota urban cruiser? isn't that just an Xb rebadge?

[regfootball]

As the Wallstreet fat cats dump their BMWs and Audis for something more 'practical,' we may see a return to sensibility in the auto market. People might actually start giving a $h! about other people's jobs, once they start losing their own.

[GMTruckGuy74]

The pickup truck market and the mid-sized sedan market couldn't be more different. Sure, a lot of pick up truck sales are to posers, but then again a lot of them are to people who need something tough and durable, which is why the Ford and GM twins own the market. To place a pick up buyer in the same class as a mid-sized family sedan buyer is...well, naive to be charitable.

While I do not consider myself to be a "poser", I do agree that many pickup truck sales are to people that have no use for a "pick up truck" vehicle (remember, just like fashion, whatever the trend is currently is what sells, whether it looks good or not = same with pickup trucks over the last decade). I would get use out of a pickup, but not on a daily basis. Much like one can desire a sports car or convertible as their daily driver, I prefer pickup trucks.

I hate to say this, but $5 a gallon gasoline is going to shut a lot of 'enthusiasts' up and the implosion of the real estate market south of our border is going to realign a lot of people's thinking.

Well, I don't know about $5/gallon gas shutting me up, but you're 100% right on this point: realign a lot of people's thinking. While for many years I've desired a full-size GMC, and I'll be the closest to fulfilling that dream (financially) next year, the state of the gas price has caused me to rethink my decision. I'm not saying that I've totally given up on my dream, but until the day I can go shopping for my next vehicle (Nov '09), at this point I have no idea what I'll end up with.

[enzl]

and we have BLOCKBUSTER toyota products to look forward to. the toyota urban cruiser? isn't that just an Xb rebadge?

Here's a scary thought: They don't need any (although I'd say the Corolla qualifies).

Here's an even scarier thought: What does GM have forthcoming that will reverse its sales slide and market share loss?

Bold Prediction: GM will be fortunate to hold market share, while losing more sales in a declining market. Toyota will end 08 about even in sales #'s and up in share.

You seem to forget, Toyota doesn't need blockbusters, GM does.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

Are you always this optimistic? You know, Mohammed Ali used to be the world champ, but the incompetent fool lost the crown......

The 45% market share was GM's to lose. You sound to me like a cheerleader for Japanese trade. It is absolutely no shame if GM holds onto 20% market share. How many companies out there have 20% of anything? There is lots of room for GM, Toyota and Ford to co-exist. I personally take the attitude that competition is great for everyone. I just grow a little concerned when I see too much bias, whether it comes from fans or from the media, which in my opinon is getting lazier and lazier.

GM's market share slide has slowed down and will soon stop, I believe. Reverse? I doubt that will ever happen. But, hey, it's all good.....

[VenSeattle]

If GM's current and upcoming products are good enough to retain loyal buyers and possibly draw some others from competitors, then GM has a very good chance of increasing market share in a declining market. The sales numbers behind January are a good example of that possibility. January's numbers did not occur because of this, but the cold numbers could represent an example of a declining market in general.

In January, GM's monthly sales were stable (with a modest increase) while the market in general slumped. If the only thing GM accomplishes in 2008 is stabilize and maintain sales, then GM will gain market share providing the total market does in fact shrink by 1 million+ sales in 2008. If GM reduces fleet sales another 100,000 in 2008 while maintaining retail sales, GM still has a chance to hold onto its current market share because of the potential market drop of 1 million+ sales.

But, of course, market share, sales volume, etc still do not equal profitability. It'll be another 2 years before the plant closings, buyouts, and Union Contract negotiations start to reap any benefit.

I find it unacceptable that Flint completely ignores the buyouts and Union contract negotiations in his paragraph addressing Legacy Costs:

Legacy costs.

Is there any answer to this? So far there hasn’t been but we can always hope.

Then he brings it up separately without discussing the actual intentions behind them and negatively touches on the benefits which contradict his original summary in the Legacy Costs paragraph:

The new contracts with the union will reduce the heritage costs, and even the wage costs as new lower-paid workers are brought in to replace the veterans. That will no longer be an excuse for the failure here in the U.S.

It's as if he attempts to separate the "failure" here in the US from one of the three main reasons stated in the article: Rebates, Efficiency, Legacy Costs.

The man has no ability to maintain a single train of thought… at least not in writing.

I do agree with the single positive scrap he throws out:

We do see signs of great improvement at General Motors. I personally feel that GM will be gaining market share this year, not much, but enough to show that the turn is underway. At Ford and Chrysler, as they say, “the issue is still in doubt.”

Another theory that I don't agree with is this one:

And it takes more than just building a better car and truck. The buyers aren’t angry at Toyota, Honda, BMW or Mercedes. They like the cars they bought from the foreigners, so getting our people to switch back is almost impossible, or a long, year-after-year process, winning customers among the newer generations who don’t carry a grudge going back 20 years. So winning them back will take a decade or more, so it means continual improvement of the product and the marketing, too.

SEVERAL surveys, polls, and reviews indicate that Gen X & the Millennials or "Gen Y" have less (in some cases, none at all) brand loyalty than Baby Boomers. The current and upcoming generations of car buyers don't need to be "angry" to switch teams. They need proven products that meet their current needs. I believe there's an even better chance now for companies who have a tarnished past to prove themselves in the market if executed correctly. Hyundai's recent success is an example. I dare say that Buick's remarkable drop in average buyer's age in 2007 is another.

As a Gen X buyer, I may show loyalty to the current brand of vehicle I am driving, but I will be out there test-driving my options before making my next decision. My tastes, needs, & wants change over time and I will address those when I'm ready to trade-in.

[Robert Hall]

SEVERAL surveys, polls, and reviews indicate that Gen X & the Millennials or "Gen Y" have less (in some cases, none at all) brand loyalty than Baby Boomers. The current and upcoming generations of car buyers don't need to be "angry" to switch teams. They need proven products that meet their current needs. I believe there's an even better chance now for companies who have a tarnished past to prove themselves in the market if executed correctly. Hyundai's recent success is an example. I dare say that Buick's remarkable drop in average buyer's age in 2007 is another.

As a Gen X buyer, I may show loyalty to the current brand of vehicle I am driving, but I will be out there test-driving my options before making my next decision. My tastes, needs, & wants change over time and I will address those when I'm ready to trade-in.

That's been my observation amongst my Xer peers... I've jumped around from Ford to BMW to Jeep and quite likely to GM next. Among GenX friends, I've seen one jump from Mitsubishi (Galant) to Nissan (Maxima) to Acura (TL, NSX), another went from Pontiac (Grand Prix) to Toyota (4Runner) to Acura (TL), another from Jeep (GC) to Ford (Focus and Mustang) to Honda (Odessey), another from Chevy (S10 Blazer) to Nissan (Pathfinder) to BMW (X5), another from Ford (Probe) to Honda (Element) to BMW (3-series) to Honda (Accord) to BMW (3-series) (long story), and a couple went from Jeep (Cherokee) and Ford (Focus) to GM (Trailblazer, Rendezvous)... all over the last 10 years.

[2QuickZ's]

Here's a scary thought: They don't need any (although I'd say the Corolla qualifies).

Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying the mildly worked over Crapolla qualifies as a blockbuster? If that is what you mean, please explain. I'm curious of your thoughts on this one.

[The O.C.]

I turned signatures on, and the first one I see is The O.C's, which almost made me die of asphyxiation.

You like that, huh?

LOL....I always thought of myself as a "Dorothy" type....

[Robert Hall]

Speaking of perceptions of GM, I went to lunch today w/ 3 former colleagues from my previous job and we got into talking cars over Thai...one guy (known as a bit of a tightwad) is looking to trade his 10 yr old Corolla on... a new Corolla...we were chiding him to treat himself to a Prius, Camry, or Avalon, but he's happy w/ Corollas. I starting raving about the CTS and talking about how I was interested in it, and another coworker asked if it had an AARP card in the glovebox. Hahaha. Hilarity at my expense ensues...I explained this was the new generation of serious, world-class Cadillac aimed at 30-something professionals like ourselves, not your grandfather's Caddy.

They were amazed that it was available w/ a manual transmission, though one coworker knew about the CTS and that I wasn't blowing smoke...

Edited February 28, 2008 by moltar

[CARBIZ]

That's been my observation amongst my Xer peers... I've jumped around from Ford to BMW to Jeep and quite likely to GM next. Among GenX friends, I've seen one jump from Mitsubishi (Galant) to Nissan (Maxima) to Acura (TL, NSX), another went from Pontiac (Grand Prix) to Toyota (4Runner) to Acura (TL), another from Jeep (GC) to Ford (Focus and Mustang) to Honda (Odessey), another from Chevy (S10 Blazer) to Nissan (Pathfinder) to BMW (X5), another from Ford (Probe) to Honda (Element) to BMW (3-series) to Honda (Accord) to BMW (3-series) (long story), and a couple went from Jeep (Cherokee) and Ford (Focus) to GM (Trailblazer, Rendezvous)... all over the last 10 years.

Exactly. How the hell are the marketing people and product planners supposed to plan for that? When GM ruled North America, there really were only a few types of vehicles. SUVs practically did not exist. Most people drove big cars. Imports were for hippies. Pickups were for farmers and contractors. The demographic changes of the past 25 years alone must give most advertising companies apoploxy. And the targets move constantly.

GENERAL Motors is going to find it very, very difficult to remain GENERAL going forward in the future, which is one reason why Toyota has had an edge and a free ride: they have only had to do one model very well and grow into that. GM has had a starving, bloated dealer network to feed - not an easy task. Perhaps a benchmark Malibu is all GM needs, but then what about Pontiac, Saturn and Buick? That is one of the greatest challenges. Look at the back and forth endless debate on this board about whether any brands should be dropped. Toyota only has to worry about one dealer network and one model in each category.

[enzl]

Are you always this optimistic? You know, Mohammed Ali used to be the world champ, but the incompetent fool lost the crown......

The 45% market share was GM's to lose. You sound to me like a cheerleader for Japanese trade. It is absolutely no shame if GM holds onto 20% market share. How many companies out there have 20% of anything? There is lots of room for GM, Toyota and Ford to co-exist. I personally take the attitude that competition is great for everyone. I just grow a little concerned when I see too much bias, whether it comes from fans or from the media, which in my opinon is getting lazier and lazier.

GM's market share slide has slowed down and will soon stop, I believe. Reverse? I doubt that will ever happen. But, hey, it's all good.....

Reality served cold, my friend.

I'm just providing counterpoint to the more deluded here, that's all. You choose to believe what you want--GM PR speak or real, on the ground experience & expectation.

20% is a joke. They were wearing 30% pins, then 28% pins---now I'm supposed to cheer 20%? Obviously, you don't depend upon a GM franchise for your livelihood.

[enzl]

Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying the mildly worked over Crapolla qualifies as a blockbuster? If that is what you mean, please explain. I'm curious of your thoughts on this one.

"Blockbuster" is a loaded term--and the Corolla isn't one in a real sense...what I should have said was "New Car Intro with 300k Sales expectation -- Minimum" or "Timely Update of Small Vehicle that US consumers will buy blindly in droves."

Unfortunately, other than pick-ups, that big-mover paradigm has shifted beyond the Big 3's grasp these days.

Since the Corolla's come up, the fact is that Toyota will shift more 2009 intro'ed vehicles than ANYONE across its product line. That's depressing.

[The O.C.]

"Blockbuster" is a loaded term--and the Corolla isn't one in a real sense...what I should have said was "New Car Intro with 300k Sales expectation -- Minimum" or "Timely Update of Small Vehicle that US consumers will buy blindly in droves."

Unfortunately, other than pick-ups, that big-mover paradigm has shifted beyond the Big 3's grasp these days.

Since the Corolla's come up, the fact is that Toyota will shift more 2009 intro'ed vehicles than ANYONE across its product line. That's depressing.

The funny thing is......hatchback aside (because sedans usually do better here) the Astra is prolly a way-better, more entertaining, and certainly more stylish car than the new Corolla.

But that just signifies the strength of the perception "thing" that GM is trying to overcome.

Ford gets no passes either. They had a WINNER in the original Focus.....and look what they let happen to that......

[2QuickZ's]

"Blockbuster" is a loaded term--and the Corolla isn't one in a real sense...what I should have said was "New Car Intro with 300k Sales expectation -- Minimum" or "Timely Update of Small Vehicle that US consumers will buy blindly in droves."

Unfortunately, other than pick-ups, that big-mover paradigm has shifted beyond the Big 3's grasp these days.

Since the Corolla's come up, the fact is that Toyota will shift more 2009 intro'ed vehicles than ANYONE across its product line. That's depressing.

Okay, that's better! You had me worried for a minute there. Now I understand what you were trying to say. Do we know what percentage of Corolla sales are Matrix? That's a breakdown I'd be interested in seeing. You also see a suprising number of Corollas in daily rental fleets. This is the one Toyota that I've never understood how it sells so well. The Camry may not be my cup of tea but I can at least see why it sells. There are many other compact cars I would take before I ever bought a Crapolla. Back when I was travelling a lot for work, the only rental car I hated getting more than a Crapolla was a Pontiac Sunfire. Some of my fellow travelling coworkers and I discussed rental cars one day and the Crapolla was almost universally panned as one of the worst you could get so I know it's not just me.

Ford gets no passes either. They had a WINNER in the original Focus.....and look what they let happen to that......

Ford doesn't deserve a pass on that one. They had a winner and turned it into a loser by letting it die on the vine. The Ranger is a similar case. It's even more disheartening that the euro spec Focus is on it's third generation while North America is forced to trudge a long with yet another mild rework of the first gen.

[enzl]

Okay, that's better! You had me worried for a minute there. Now I understand what you were trying to say. Do we know what percentage of Corolla sales are Matrix? That's a breakdown I'd be interested in seeing. You also see a suprising number of Corollas in daily rental fleets. This is the one Toyota that I've never understood how it sells so well. The Camry may not be my cup of tea but I can at least see why it sells. There are many other compact cars I would take before I ever bought a Crapolla. Back when I was travelling a lot for work, the only rental car I hated getting more than a Crapolla was a Pontiac Sunfire. Some of my fellow travelling coworkers and I discussed rental cars one day and the Crapolla was almost universally panned as one of the worst you could get so I know it's not just me.

Ford doesn't deserve a pass on that one. They had a winner and turned it into a loser by letting it die on the vine. The Ranger is a similar case. It's even more disheartening that the euro spec Focus is on it's third generation while North America is forced to trudge a long with yet another mild rework of the first gen.

The Corolla's success mystifies me in a world where the Mazda 3 & Honda Civic are so far superior...but it goes to show you how powerful a consistent nameplate usage and quality message can do for you...

I think the Matrix is at about 50k/yr., IIRC. Corolla is also the Toyota with the largest fleet sales---not surprising, but if the Big 3 have cut 300,000 sales in the last year, somebody has clearly picked up the slack...

The Focus thing is an atrocity, but I believe that Ford is getting on the right path. I'm not as sold on the Rickster & Co.

[The O.C.]

The Corolla's success mystifies me in a world where the Mazda 3 & Honda Civic are so far superior...but it goes to show you how powerful a consistent nameplate usage and quality message can do for you...

I think the Matrix is at about 50k/yr., IIRC. Corolla is also the Toyota with the largest fleet sales---not surprising, but if the Big 3 have cut 300,000 sales in the last year, somebody has clearly picked up the slack...

The Focus thing is an atrocity, but I believe that Ford is getting on the right path. I'm not as sold on the Rickster & Co.

I just think that there are a ton of people out there that really couldn't care less what they drive....to them, it's just transportation. While you or I would gravitate towards the 3 or Civic, there are hundreds of thousands that will be simply satisfied with the Corolla.

I've never had a bad experience with a Corolla....it's certainly not exciting.....but any of the rentals I had "got the job done" and were comfortable with decent appointments. But that was it....

[CARBIZ]

If I was given a Corolla rental, I would walk. I was forced to drive them when customers whined they were going to shop the Cobalt against them and that was quite enough. The last rental I had was a Mustang when I was in Vegas and L.A. in October - loved it, especially on Mulholland Dr. Before that, I had a Fiat and a Corsa, in Brazil.

It's nothing against Toyota, but I had to drive lots of them in my previous job. That was asking too much.

[regfootball]

corolla is suckage.

an outa town buddy, i met him and his coworker for drinks a few weeks ago. he had gotten a toyota corolla as a rental. holy crap did they both rip on it.

[Robert Hall]

corolla is suckage.

an outa town buddy, i met him and his coworker for drinks a few weeks ago. he had gotten a toyota corolla as a rental. holy crap did they both rip on it.

Speaking of crappy compacts, a coworker's wife's '01 Passat was in the shop today (needed a $2k cam shaft fix), and he had a Caliber rental...what a steaming pile... infinitely depressing gray concrete-hardness plastics inside, horrible blind spots (very thick A-pillar trim, huge C-pillar blind spots, tiny windows). Worst thing I've ridden in since an HHR last year.

[The O.C.]

Speaking of crappy compacts, a coworker's wife's '01 Passat was in the shop today (needed a $2k cam shaft fix), and he had a Caliber rental...what a steaming pile... infinitely depressing gray concrete-hardness plastics inside, horrible blind spots (very thick A-pillar trim, huge C-pillar blind spots, tiny windows). Worst thing I've ridden in since an HHR last year.

I had a Caliber rental.....and thought it drove pretty nice. Even didn't mind the engine and CVT that much.

BUT....the interior is horrific and I just can't get over the styling/proportions.

Would never buy one.

[Intrepidation]

I had a Caliber rental.....and thought it drove pretty nice. Even didn't mind the engine and CVT that much.

BUT....the interior is horrific and I just can't get over the styling/proportions.

Would never buy one.

I do hope the interior redo actually makes the inside a nice place to be, but that being said it has better materials than a Cobalt...not that that's saying much of course.

It would be nice if they offer a 6-speed option with the R/T

Edited February 29, 2008 by Dodgefan

[The O.C.]

I do hope the interior redo actually makes the inside a nice place to be, but that being said it has better materials than a Cobalt...not that that's saying much of course.

It would be nice if they offer a 6-speed option with the R/T

Ironically bud....I have to disagree.

I've never been a Cobalt interior fan.....but even Cobalt has a nicer finish inside. ChryCo's latest interiors have been so bad, it's unbelievable.

The LXs have been fine....and the Journey certainly looks promising. But outside of that, they've been nasty in a way I haven't seen in a LONG time.

[CARBIZ]

General Motors has to take their entire Seating Department and fire them. Throw them off a high cliff, if necessary. The ugliest thing about the Cobalt is its FUGLY seats. The ebony sport cloth is actually kinda nice, but you can only get it in the coupe. If you loathe the tan (OMIGOD, the worst ever) or the sea of grey interiors in the sedan, the only way out is to spend well over a thousand bucks to get the ebony leather, which is not bad.

Truly, I don't know why GM has been so slow at firing their entire seating department. Even our hapless trainers and District Managers avert their eyes when we whine and complain about the seats. They half-assed fixed them in the Equinox.

Even in the gorgeous Malibu, the grey in the LS is FUGLY. The two-tone cashmere and cocoa is beautiful - so there is hope. Whoever designed that two-tone interior probably got chased off the premises for making the rest of the department look bad.

[The O.C.]

General Motors has to take their entire Seating Department and fire them. Throw them off a high cliff, if necessary. The ugliest thing about the Cobalt is its FUGLY seats. The ebony sport cloth is actually kinda nice, but you can only get it in the coupe. If you loathe the tan (OMIGOD, the worst ever) or the sea of grey interiors in the sedan, the only way out is to spend well over a thousand bucks to get the ebony leather, which is not bad.

Truly, I don't know why GM has been so slow at firing their entire seating department. Even our hapless trainers and District Managers avert their eyes when we whine and complain about the seats. They half-assed fixed them in the Equinox.

Even in the gorgeous Malibu, the grey in the LS is FUGLY. The two-tone cashmere and cocoa is beautiful - so there is hope. Whoever designed that two-tone interior probably got chased off the premises for making the rest of the department look bad.

I've never found the seats themselves as bad....most are quite comfortable.

I just think GM uses some questionable color combinations. Like the grey interior in the Cobalt spells cheap to me. Not the actual cloth....but somehow the hue of grey they use (like the past-gen Malibu in fact) is just so bland.

The best interior combos I like are found in brands like BMW and Audi. On certain models, you can specify a beige, or grey (or even red) interior and alot of times the interiors have colored seats and door panel inserts, but black carpets, dash, door panel tops, etc.

These look really good to me.....much better even than the Malibu's two-tone combos.....

[CARBIZ]

Okay, I wouldn't expect Chevrolet's seats to compete with BMWs or Audis. I just saw a customer's Maxx yesterday: the staining on the seats was awful. This crappy nylon material is pissing a lot of people off. Even a bit of water will turn whatever dust and oil is on the seats or door padding into tree rings of stains. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[The O.C.]

Okay, I wouldn't expect Chevrolet's seats to compete with BMWs or Audis. I just saw a customer's Maxx yesterday: the staining on the seats was awful. This crappy nylon material is pissing a lot of people off. Even a bit of water will turn whatever dust and oil is on the seats or door padding into tree rings of stains. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Yeah now that u mention it, it seems alot of my recent GM rentals do have pretty badly-stained seats compared to other rentals I get. (Recent HHR rental comes to mind.)

It wouldn't concern me 'cause I'm anal and if I got a GM car with this fabric, I'd keep it clean anyways.....

I think the fabric looks good in the showroom......much more tastful than some of the "crushed" velours they use to use.....

Edited March 4, 2008 by The O.C.