So Toyota is coming around in NASCAR it seems

[Dragon]

as much as I'd like to see DEJ win the 500 (and all other races this year), part of me wants to see a Toyota win the 50th running of the "Great American Race" simply because of the irony it would be. Well, that an the reaction racing fans would have.

[gm4life]

The Camry is a discrace to an AMERICAN sport. And Joe Gibbs racing now uses the one and only Toyota.

Edited February 16, 2008 by gm4life

[A Horse With No Name]

I don't really follow NASCAR, but didn't the Toyota trucks do well last year?

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

as much as I'd like to see DEJ win the 500 (and all other races this year), part of me wants to see a Toyota win the 50th running of the "Great American Race" simply because of the irony it would be. Well, that an the reaction racing fans would have.

It wouldn't surprise me...

I mean, after all, Nascar is filled with these 'coincidences' all of the time anyway

Toyota will dominate Nascar soon enough (from buying their way to success -- just like in the market) and that will be one more bastion of the Detroit 3 that will be ridiculed and destroyed. But, then again, look at the 'new audience' of Nascar... It's not like those people give a damn about the Detroit 3 anyway.

When the race is on here in Charlotte, I can't tell you how many P.O.S. asian mobiles I see with 'good 'ole boy' racing decals on them. It's a rather saddening contrast to the literal fields of domestic cars that populated the lots in the 90's when I was big into the sport. (Before it got lame)

Edited February 17, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Screaming Trees]

Well toyota threw a lot of money at JGR and they went for it. The engine builders at JGR used Chevrolet's new R07 race motor and applied all that new technology to the toyota motor. So the new toyota motor is built with Chevrolet technology.

[Robert Hall]

It wouldn't surprise me...

I mean, after all, Nascar is filled with these 'coincidences' all of the time anyway

Toyota will dominate Nascar soon enough (from buying their way to success -- just like in the market) and that will be one more bastion of the Detroit 3 that will be ridiculed and destroyed. But, then again, look at the 'new audience' of Nascar... It's not like those people give a damn about the Detroit 3 anyway.

When the race is on here in Charlotte, I can't tell you how many P.O.S. asian mobiles I see with 'good 'ole boy' racing decals on them. It's a rather saddening contrast to the literal fields of domestic cars that populated the lots in the 90's when I was big into the sport. (Before is got lame)

At work, my project manager's husband works for NASCAR, doing something with advertising.. they moved to Denver from Charlotte a few years back..they have a Honda Accord and a Tundra, both with #3 and NASCAR decals....fans of an American racing series driving their American made Japanese vehicles..

[knightfan26917]

...part of me wants to see a Toyota win the 50th running of the "Great American Race" simply because of the irony it would be.

LOL!

That would be ironic.

Course, it'd be also ironic if the "impala" won ... considering it is also the 50th anniversary of that nameplate....

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"You don't know until you begin" ... Van Halen ... 'Jump'

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well toyota threw a lot of money at JGR and they went for it. The engine builders at JGR used Chevrolet's new R07 race motor and applied all that new technology to the toyota motor. So the new toyota motor is built with Chevrolet technology.

Exactly...

Just like in the truck series; Toyota bought their way to the top on the backs of Detroit. In a way it mirrors the dealership ordeal where many Toyota franchises were built using bankrolled GM and Ford sales.

At work, my project manager's husband works for NASCAR, doing something with advertising.. they moved to Denver from Charlotte a few years back..they have a Honda Accord and a Tundra, both with #3 and NASCAR decals....fans of an American racing series driving their American made Japanese vehicles.. smile.gif

No offense intended, but what a disgrace...

Edited February 17, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Screaming Trees]

Exactly...

Just like in the truck series; Toyota bought their way to the top on the backs of Detroit. In a way it mirrors the dealership ordeal where many Toyota franchises were built using bankrolled GM and Ford sales.

I certainly won't disagree with that.

[gm4life]

A Dodge won so I don't care. But yes this Toyota in hosting fishing tourny's, FFA events, 4H things, now in Nascar it is funny. Let 'em have there glory there new product isn't that great case in point new Corolla. People realize not what they do. I might have an artistic insperation.

[toesuf94]

I am personally disgraced by the lack of ethics that are involved in these former American Sports in the taking of blood money from the Japanese. And yes, it is BLOOD money - the blood of the workers that are getting sold out, and the blood of the Dollar that is getting further and further devalued due to trade deficits and further loss of jobs in this country.

Bass fishing, NASCAR (which is a farce any more) Craftsman Truck series, and all of the other events that Toyota have bought are now off my radar as events I will support or attend. Vote with your dollars people, all of Joe Gibbs sponsors...boycott them as much as possible. I will and do regularly.

[Screaming Trees]

The thing is, NASCAR was warned by several heads of motorsports around the world, in particular Bernie Eccelstone the head of FIA, not to let Toyota in. They have no corporate ethics, they are very cut throat. NASCAR is on the decline anyway, and toyota will help speed the process.

[Screaming Trees]

I am personally disgraced by the lack of ethics that are involved in these former American Sports in the taking of blood money from the Japanese. And yes, it is BLOOD money - the blood of the workers that are getting sold out, and the blood of the Dollar that is getting further and further devalued due to trade deficits and further loss of jobs in this country.

Bass fishing, NASCAR (which is a farce any more) Craftsman Truck series, and all of the other events that Toyota have bought are now off my radar as events I will support or attend. Vote with your dollars people, all of Joe Gibbs sponsors...boycott them as much as possible. I will and do regularly.

toyota has the NASCAR brass, and the media convinced that since they build cars in America, they are American cars.

[Solar Max]

The thing is, NASCAR was warned by several heads of motorsports around the world, in particular Bernie Eccelstone the head of FIA, not to let Toyota in. They have no corporate ethics, they are very cut throat. NASCAR is on the decline anyway, and toyota will help speed the process.

I recall that. Can't remember who it was, so thanks for the heads up.

I would LOVE to see GM, Ford and Chrysler pull out of NASCAR to concentrate on SCCA and other series; leave NASCAR to Toyota, and I understand soon Nissan.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Money talks and the walks...

Buisness men and politicians alike will say whatever you want them to say if you pay them enough. This is ESPECIALLY true with Nascar.

If Toyota is padding the pockets of Nascar via endorsements AND a huge untapped fan base in exchange for (the company's main goal) being passed off as american, then I'm sure it's no problem for Nascar to sell out like that. What's sad is how much of the american public will come to believe that as fact. I predict within 10-20 years, people will view the japanese companies as more american than the traditional domestics if something isn't done by Detroit to reinforce where they came from in peoples minds. And I doubt that will happen since Detroit is working very, very hard to become a global alliance.

Personally, I'd like to see GM, Ford & Chrysler back out of Nascar (except for a decal and grille kit -- That's what the Car of Tomorrow will eventually be anyway) and start up a successful factory backed Trans Am series. They could race everything from Cobalts all the way up to Corvettes and everything would have to be production based.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I recall that. Can't remember who it was, so thanks for the heads up.

I would LOVE to see GM, Ford and Chrysler pull out of NASCAR to concentrate on SCCA and other series; leave NASCAR to Toyota, and I understand soon Nissan.

I hadn't heard about that...

Nascar is shifting it's audience as Detroit dies. I'm willing to bet that Nascar has actually been asking Toyota and Nissan into the sport instead of the opposite. Next up will be Hyundai. (And that'll be your new big three)

Besides, with the relatively rapid decline of the sport, the fat cats must be getting desperate by now.

[Screaming Trees]

I would love to see GM, Ford, and Chrysler bail out on NASCAR and start thier own series. The sport would fall apart from that. There are team owners tied too close to certain manufacturers. Roush to Ford, Childress to Chevy, Evernham to Dodge. I think that if the big three did leave those owners would go to, along with some drivers who feel loyalty. The best example of that would be Dale Earnhardt Jr. He turned down offers from JGR, RYR, and Evernham, to take a deal with Hendrick so he would be in a Chevy.

nissan has expressed intrest in NASCAR but I don't know if it has gone much further than that. hyundai could be a possibility, it wouldn't suprise me. So I guess it would be toyota, hyundai, nissan, and maybe even mazda.

[Hudson]

The Camry is a discrace to an AMERICAN sport. And Joe Gibbs racing now uses the one and only Toyota.

Such a disgrace. The Camry (built in Kentucky) versus the Impala (Canadian) and Charger (Canadian) and Fusion (Mexican). And Toyota's the "disgrace to an AMERICAN sport."

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Such a disgrace. The Camry (built in Kentucky) versus the Impala (Canadian) and Charger (Canadian) and Fusion (Mexican). And Toyota's the "disgrace to an AMERICAN sport."

As always, where it's built doesn't matter.

Are Detroit cars considered Chinese if they're built in China? Didn't think so....

[A Horse With No Name]

At work, my project manager's husband works for NASCAR, doing something with advertising.. they moved to Denver from Charlotte a few years back..they have a Honda Accord and a Tundra, both with #3 and NASCAR decals....fans of an American racing series driving their American made Japanese vehicles..

My old neighbor had a Dale Ernhardt special edition Monte Carlo with a bunch of Jeff Gordon Stickers and a big #24 on it. Suprised that car didn't get keyed from a loyal Ernhardt fan.

Most of the Nascar fans around here seem to still buy domestic BTW.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Such a disgrace. The Camry (built in Kentucky) versus the Impala (Canadian) and Charger (Canadian) and Fusion (Mexican). And Toyota's the "disgrace to an AMERICAN sport."

When a Chinese made Demon starts winning in the SCCA against the Solstice it will be a disgrace to everyone...assuming Chrysler still builds it.

Chris

[Hudson]

As always, where it's built doesn't matter.

Are Detroit cars considered Chinese if they're built in China? Didn't think so....

Actually, they are. Chevrolets and Buicks built in China are domestic cars and are treated as such (one of the reasons why they're so popular).

I think the point that's being missed here is that "American" doesn't simply mean the badge that's on the car. How many Americans (people from the United States) are assembling the Impala or Charger or Fusion? And which of these four cars (including the Camry) has the highest US parts content? My mindset is that the level of "Americanness" in a car comes from the number of parts and people employed to make the vehicle.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Hudson

[toesuf94]

and let's not forget that at the end of the day - the purchase of a Japanese car ASSEMBLED in the US still benefits the Japanese economy - not ours. All it does is increase the trade deficit. Here is how to better understand: go to a hobby shop and buy a model kit made in Japan. The kit has parts that were made in Japan by a mold run in Japan, that was made by a japanese mold maker. The mold was drafted and designed by a Japanese engineer. Now, pay yourself $10.00 per hour to put it together, and there you go. You have now proven how much a Japanese car "assembled" here benefits our economy. Yeah, the dealer level also contributes on a local level, but that is the full extent of it.

American cars built over the border in Canada and Mexico still use a large number of parts built and assembled here in the US.

I too, would love to see the Detroit 3 pull out of the series completely. Let it go, and move on to SCCA or another actually FACTORY BASED series, like the German Touring Car series or Australian Cup series. The Car Of Tomorrow was the final straw for me. Chevy had too much of an aero advantage over the others, so they gave EVERYONE the same package. Booo.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Don't forget that those lower paying 'assembly jobs' from foreign manufacturers displaced MANY great paying 'assembly jobs' from Detroit manufcaturers.

I'm not sure why some people think anything that touches american soil is american. I guess they'll learn one day when their supposed peaceful, equal opportunity utopia turns out to be a steaming pile of sh*t.

[Hudson]

and let's not forget that at the end of the day - the purchase of a Japanese car ASSEMBLED in the US still benefits the Japanese economy - not ours. All it does is increase the trade deficit. Here is how to better understand: go to a hobby shop and buy a model kit made in Japan. The kit has parts that were made in Japan by a mold run in Japan, that was made by a japanese mold maker. The mold was drafted and designed by a Japanese engineer. Now, pay yourself $10.00 per hour to put it together, and there you go. You have now proven how much a Japanese car "assembled" here benefits our economy. Yeah, the dealer level also contributes on a local level, but that is the full extent of it.

American cars built over the border in Canada and Mexico still use a large number of parts built and assembled here in the US.

Are you kidding me? Japanese cars assembled in the US typically use over 75% US/Canadian parts...similar numbers to Big3 branded vehicles and higher than many built in Mexico (have you read the sticker on a Ford Fusion?). And how does a vehicle using 75% US/Canadian parts, employing assembly workers in Ohio or Kentucky or California or Illinois or Indiana or Michigan or Georgia or Mississippi or Tennessee or Texas, employing designers and engineers in California or Michigan and delivered and sold by Americans NOT benefit our economy? More than 80% of the transaction price of an American-assembled Japanese brand car or truck stays in the US....how is that not a benefit to the US economy? How is a 100% imported plastic model akin to buying a 75% American full-sized vehicle?

Don't forget that those lower paying 'assembly jobs' from foreign manufacturers displaced MANY great paying 'assembly jobs' from Detroit manufcaturers.

And don't forget that those "lower paying" jobs are filled by people who would be paid FAR LESS if those jobs were not offered to them. If these jobs were so low paying, why would Toyota get 100,000 applicants for fewer than 3,000 assembly jobs in Texas? Because people just want to work for Toyota at any cost? No...because they're better paying than they would otherwise find in that area.

Sure, those jobs may be relocating jobs from Virginia or Kentucky or Michigan, but did anyone think that those Big3 jobs may have been OVER paid? C'mon....$100,000 a year to assemble vehicles when college graduates with years of experience can't find jobs paying HALF that much?

Edited February 21, 2008 by Hudson

[z28luvr01]

NASCAR = WWE on wheels.

Move along people...nothing to see here.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This piece from a year ago points out the difference in parts content between domestic and imported cars. It also touches on some 'quality of life' aspects associated with accepting the logic that imports are 'american cars'

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...11981.html?pg=3

This article from last year points out the ever increasing amount of imported cars that are coming in to our country instead of being built here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/weekinre...nyt&emc=rss

[hyperv6]

Toyota has not improved in NASCAR. Joe GIbbs has improved Toyota.

All the other teams combined that Toyota has could not win with a Rick Hendrick car with old man Earnhardt back fromt he grave. They were all third level team.

In NASCAR it is not the MFG but the Team and Driver with the new COT cars. The new cars have less down force and make the drivers work now.

The ones who complain were driving over their tallent with the eaier to drive old cars.

The bottom line is Joe Gibbs Racing won on Sunday Not Toyota.

Edited March 10, 2008 by hyperv6

[Dragon]

one possibl3 reason they're doing well...

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?s...&id=3311679

[cletus8269]

some of my first words were probably nascar related cuase it was waht was on the tv every weekend. watching the races on espn classics makes me wonder where the sport has gone in the past 5 years. instead of catering to the fan base its one giant commercial. advertising and marketing has replaced the values of the sport. jimmy bob and joe bob cant go because the tickets are too high or the track that once was home to 2 or 3 races is either down to one or even overlooked now to go out west. several key tracks from just 10 years ago are distant memories for some fans, id even go so far to say that some probably dont know where north wilkesburo is. all in the name of the almighty dollar. i havent seen a single race this year... quite frankly i could go so far as to say i could care less. they have taken the race clear out of the competition because instead of going out there and tuning the cars themselves they cry to the powers that be that they are at a disadvantage. Now we have the car of tomorrow... nascars fate is sealed. its doing good now mind you but give it 5 or 10 years. i remeber seeing races with only 3 cars on the lead lap. i remember superspeedways without restrictor plates. i remember seeing oldsmobiles on the track beside pontiacs. you cant bump and bang on the guy beside you are the guy blocking you because thats rough driving. thank you nascar, thank you for making the "sport" just a bunch of cars going around in circles. by the way when was the last time they actually took a car off the lot and made it into a race car anyway.

[gm4life]

QUOTE(toesuf94 @ Feb 20 2008, 04:20 PM)

and let's not forget that at the end of the day - the purchase of a Japanese car ASSEMBLED in the US still benefits the Japanese economy - not ours. All it does is increase the trade deficit. Here is how to better understand: go to a hobby shop and buy a model kit made in Japan. The kit has parts that were made in Japan by a mold run in Japan, that was made by a japanese mold maker. The mold was drafted and designed by a Japanese engineer. Now, pay yourself $10.00 per hour to put it together, and there you go. You have now proven how much a Japanese car "assembled" here benefits our economy. Yeah, the dealer level also contributes on a local level, but that is the full extent of it.

American cars built over the border in Canada and Mexico still use a large number of parts built and assembled here in the US.

Are you kidding me? Japanese cars assembled in the US typically use over 75% US/Canadian parts...similar numbers to Big3 branded vehicles and higher than many built in Mexico (have you read the sticker on a Ford Fusion?). And how does a vehicle using 75% US/Canadian parts, employing assembly workers in Ohio or Kentucky or California or Illinois or Indiana or Michigan or Georgia or Mississippi or Tennessee or Texas, employing designers and engineers in California or Michigan and delivered and sold by Americans NOT benefit our economy? More than 80% of the transaction price of an American-assembled Japanese brand car or truck stays in the US....how is that not a benefit to the US economy? How is a 100% imported plastic model akin to buying a 75% American full-sized vehicle?

QUOTE(FUTURE_OF_GM @ Feb 20 2008, 11:50 PM)

Don't forget that those lower paying 'assembly jobs' from foreign manufacturers displaced MANY great paying 'assembly jobs' from Detroit manufcaturers.

And don't forget that those "lower paying" jobs are filled by people who would be paid FAR LESS if those jobs were not offered to them. If these jobs were so low paying, why would Toyota get 100,000 applicants for fewer than 3,000 assembly jobs in Texas? Because people just want to work for Toyota at any cost? No...because they're better paying than they would otherwise find in that area.

Sure, those jobs may be relocating jobs from Virginia or Kentucky or Michigan, but did anyone think that those Big3 jobs may have been OVER paid? C'mon....$100,000 a year to assemble vehicles when college graduates with years of experience can't find jobs paying HALF that much?

^Hudson need I remind you that you are on a GM board.^

Have you ever taken economics, aside of where the car is built money is going across the big pond. What good is that? Oh yeah it helps Toyota fatten there bottom line.

[capriceman]

I must refrain from commenting, but who do you know that works on the line and makes a 100K? Only Skilled trades average about 60-70 in the big 3. Its the White Collars that make 115k to sit in a chair and direct the blue collars. Average pay on the line now is about 23 an hour which works out to be 48k a year which is very acceptable. New Hires on a GM Line make 15 an hour which is about 32k and no one should be forced to make a family Survive on that.

Im against Toyota and there practices, but they are providing jobs although it is at the expense of the national debt but the bottom line is those people are happy to have a decent paying job.

[CARBIZ]

Oh, we've beaten this one to death before, too.

We can focus on the high paying assembly jobs if we want, because that is easy, but the greater issue is who owns (controls) the patents, technologies and systems? That's right: Japan.

So when your kid is working for McDonald's and the highest he can ever aspire to become is shift manager, you will know why.

Think about this: China and India produce more engineering graduates in a single year than the United States has university grads. Chew on that for the future.

[frogger]

We can focus on the high paying assembly jobs if we want, because that is easy, but the greater issue is who owns (controls) the patents, technologies and systems? That's right: Japan.

So when your kid is working for McDonald's and the highest he can ever aspire to become is shift manager, you will know why.

Think about this: China and India produce more engineering graduates in a single year than the United States has university grads. Chew on that for the future.

Gotta be happy for someone in China and India graduating engineering as I'm sure they didn't grow up with the opportunities we have here.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Oh, we've beaten this one to death before, too.

We can focus on the high paying assembly jobs if we want, because that is easy, but the greater issue is who owns (controls) the patents, technologies and systems? That's right: Japan.

So when your kid is working for McDonald's and the highest he can ever aspire to become is shift manager, you will know why.

Think about this: China and India produce more engineering graduates in a single year than the United States has university grads. Chew on that for the future.

LOL..

As always, the voice of wisdom.

But hey, I'm sure we as americans can take pride in our $22K per year service positions.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Gotta be happy for someone in China and India graduating engineering as I'm sure they didn't grow up with the opportunities we have here.

Why is that?

I hate to be mean, but the world is far too competitive for us to congratulate our enemies for putting us out of jobs.

[frogger]

Why is that?

I hate to be mean, but the world is far too competitive for us to congratulate our enemies for putting us out of jobs.

Everyone assumes tech jobs are all gone, all outsourced. But there is a shortage of skilled workers here in many areas of expertise. I can't find good experienced Oracle people for less than $100K.

Whats sad is people born here don't enroll in post secondary education for engineering or computer sciences anywhere near like they used to, so our universities accept far more foreign students. Thats not India or China's fault.

I was never raised to believe foreign countries are enemies because my parents were born in two different foreign countries. My country will never determine my happiness or success, I am fully responsible for myself.

[Sixty8panther]

NASCAR is a joke. It was cool up until 1970 when they decided that Mopars

were kickin too much ass and some drastic changes had to happen.

NASCAR stoped being relevant in the late 1980s.

Its called a stock car, and yet it's a RWD V8 tube chassis race car that has

a fiberglass body with the emblem of a FWD, unibody, transverse mounted

V6 powered car with FOUR doors?

WTFingF!?!?!

Oval racing is always a letdown but at least up until the 1960s the STOCK cars

were really based on a factory built chassis.

The sec. you take away the 348 big blocks, pontiac widetrack, mystery motors,

bias ply tires, REAL hemispherical-head V8 mopars & the human element you

have nothing but another corporate whore-fest.

You know what's pathetic?

XP and myself both work for two different companies that are the main sponsors

on a freekin fiberglass Camry ASS-car.

[A Horse With No Name]

68 your right...The good ole days of Nascar are gone forever.

Chris

[biff]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/8370...n-Toyota-motors

3% of 800HP is 24HP. That will make a difference.

[daves87rs]

some of my first words were probably nascar related cuase it was waht was on the tv every weekend. watching the races on espn classics makes me wonder where the sport has gone in the past 5 years. instead of catering to the fan base its one giant commercial. advertising and marketing has replaced the values of the sport. jimmy bob and joe bob cant go because the tickets are too high or the track that once was home to 2 or 3 races is either down to one or even overlooked now to go out west. several key tracks from just 10 years ago are distant memories for some fans, id even go so far to say that some probably dont know where north wilkesburo is. all in the name of the almighty dollar. i havent seen a single race this year... quite frankly i could go so far as to say i could care less. they have taken the race clear out of the competition because instead of going out there and tuning the cars themselves they cry to the powers that be that they are at a disadvantage. Now we have the car of tomorrow... nascars fate is sealed. its doing good now mind you but give it 5 or 10 years. i remeber seeing races with only 3 cars on the lead lap. i remember superspeedways without restrictor plates. i remember seeing oldsmobiles on the track beside pontiacs. you cant bump and bang on the guy beside you are the guy blocking you because thats rough driving. thank you nascar, thank you for making the "sport" just a bunch of cars going around in circles. by the way when was the last time they actually took a car off the lot and made it into a race car anyway.