Troubling article from Autoweek online

[gmcbob]

I agree. But a lot of that is because up until now, GM has not given us anything to get excited about. And just when that stuff gets here, GM takes it away for no reason. There is absolutely no reason to all out abandon Zeta and waste money like GM has (On the N* replacement and Zeta)

Depends... Can you market that Zeta Park Avenue to 20 somethings like me that care about performance and brand image? I don't think so... Sure, some of you might deny the fact that Pontiac appeals to the youth (it does, I only hope GM knows how much and how valuable the division is in this respect) but I bet you won't deny that it appeals to the youth more than Buick.

Would said Park Avenue serve the same purpose as the G8? Absolutley not. It'd be a boulevard cruiser that is more concerned about luxury and added weight than running at the track. And don't sit there and tell me that Buick could make it sporty because there's a car by the name of CTS and a division by the name of Cadillac that won't allow that to happen.

Will I be able to buy that Park Avenue at the same price point as a G8 Heck no! And therein lies the point and subsequently the problem with Pontiac in general. GM CANNOT MAKE THE RETURN ON PONTIAC THAT IT CAN MAKE ON BUICK It's not about how many cars Buick or Pontiac sells. If GM wants volume, they'll send the project through their volume division (Chevrolet) Therefore, it's all about profit, and Buick with it's 'luxury connotation' can sell essentially the same project for more $$$ than Pontiac with it's 'sports connotation' Therefore, a Park Avenue would automatically be more expensive than a comparitive G8, or GM wouldn't do the program in the first place.

Will Buick potray the kind of image for the corporation that Pontiac was supposed to portray? GM would be the *ONLY* large manufacturer with a division solely dedicted to performance. It's a niche that hasn't even been touched yet by an affordable division (a.k.a someone other than BMW or Alfa) The ONLY other company that has the potential to do something like this would be Ford with their Mercury division. But who's to say Ford won't be bankrupt in 3 years?

Pontiac has been badly mismanaged for a long time, but if GM were to take some time to rehab the division, the possibilities would be endless. And if GM was hinging the revival of Pontiac SOLELY on the Zeta cars, then their leadership is just as ignorant as the brand managers of yore. Sure, the Zetas will sell to people like us (People who GM doesn't even need to convince to walk through their showrooms) and maybe some BMW/Dodge humpers who are open minded enough to give us a chance. But in order to REALLY revive Pontiac, it's going to take more. And all of those possibilites are *STILL* on the table. A G6 from Alpha, a new rally-esque G5 from Delta II, a buff Solstice from Kappa II, an Alpha and Delta II wagon line. The platforms are already being built, why not sign Pontiac on to the programs?

I'll tell you why: POLITICS The same bull$h! that will eventually destroy the company division by division.

You get what you give....

The VERY same thing was being said about Buick not even 1 year ago. Now, GM GAVE the division relevant product (for once in the past 10 years) and it was the HOTTEST vehicle on the market for most of the year. It has done imeasurable good for the image of the division and made it relevant again. Riddle me this: How do you think Pontiac would be doing now if GM had given them the entire Saturn portfolio? They'd probably be selling A LOT better than Saturn! But, yet again, GM's politics forced their hand. (Saturn's dealer network makes it exceedingly hard to phase the division out)

This is where the great divide of stupidity is at GM: They think a division can survive and sell on it's name peddling products that are virtual sh*t for years on end... Then the board can't seem to figure out why 'division XXX' is in decline and not attracting buyers as fast as they leave. It's the easiest thing in the world to understand unless you work for GM.

Nope, because it wouldn't be focused enough... Buick would see added luxury and price. Chevrolet would be decontented and built for volume.

1) The "Caddy V6" is a corporate powertrain and 2) Buick thrives because of China, I highly doubt your coupe would be built here.

So you're willing to phase out the sales of an entire division for a platform that hasn't even been greenlighted yet?

** I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, I'm just using your post to highlight some of my thoughts for those from GM that are hopefully paying attention. **

I agree with you for the most part about GM losing focus and really screwing up Pontiac - and true - it's probably a brand that deserves being saved, as I think some of their cars are really pretty sweet. But we all know it that GM has a very odd, if almost frustrating style of brand management, and more than likely, they won't really save Pontiac the way we'd like it to be saved. They'll inadvertently continue to kill it like they have been. GXP Turbo Solstice, a G8 and a, uh, what , a Torrent? Huh?

Another very serious problem (if not the biggest problem actually), and this stems from GM's 12 or 15 years of bone headed brand management, is perception of Pontiac as a viable alternative to people who shop for rear drive, sporty type vehicles. It's going to be very difficult to get G37 Coupe buyers to consider a (superior) LS powered GTO type car over the Infiniti or 3-Series, or whatever rear drive performance car you can think of that's in that group of sweet spot performance cars. GM management is probably struggling with this very harsh reality in trying to determine what Pontiac should be. I'm not that pretentious when it comes to brands in general, so I'll go and buy a G8 over an Infiniti or something of that ilk, but I might be in the minority of professionals in their 30s who think like that. I don't know. A lot of my quasi-car loving friends have said that if Pontiac could put some real style in their cars (not like the recent 2004-2007 GTO), they would consider buying one. I'm thinking out loud - but a lawyer friend (girl), my age, recently bought a Solstice GXP - man, I'll tell you something, I didn't see that coming at all (she was a Camry driver actually) - so I don't know, maybe there is some hope for Pontiac yet?? Who knows.? I could see GM really thinking that Pontiac could make for some sweet G35/3-Series/IS350 killers - but they'd have to charge a price that I think people won't be willing to pay for a Pontiac. It could all hinge on the success or failure of the G8 to see what is going to happen.

Ultimately, what I think we're going to see from GM is this: all the (big, not Solstice sized) rear drive performance cars that guys like us actually want going to Caddy - because they can charge through the nose for them. All the cheap to build G6 and Malibu type cars staying down at the bottom. GM wants to see this because my guess is the the profit margin on a G8 would not be anywhere near what it will be if it were a dressed up, option rich Cadillac "DTS" or DT7 or whatever its going to be called.

Bottom line - those bozo's have totally screwed up a really cool car company. Sometimes I wonder if Bob Lutz and crew know whether they're a foot or on horseback sometimes.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Another very serious problem (if not the biggest problem actually), and this stems from GM's 12 or 15 years of bone headed brand management, is perception of Pontiac as a viable alternative to people who shop for rear drive, sporty type vehicles. It's going to be very difficult to get G37 Coupe buyers to consider a (superior) LS powered GTO type car over the Infiniti or 3-Series, or whatever rear drive performance car you can think of that's in that group of sweet spot performance cars. GM management is probably struggling with this very harsh reality in trying to determine what Pontiac should be.

I agree 100%

I think GM should take a 2 pronged approach. If they want Pontiac to be what they say they want it to be: 1) and most importantly, they need to grow a buyer base. They need to capitalize on Pontiac's appeal to the youth, however big or small it is, by building cars for the youth. GM needs to use a 'out of the park' G5, Vibe and Solstice to really get the attention of the Lancer/WRX crowd and then give those people cars to step up into. 2) Build cars like the G8 and G8 ST for now as a supplemental thing. Those models need to attract buyers like us, who are hardcore GM/RWD people and the few who might jump ship from other brands all the while serving as halo vehicles for the division. *Then as the buyers that GM has grown out of G5/Vibe/Solstice sales begin to move up, they can alter or expand sales of the top models as needed.

It's a given that GM will probably sell 50K G8 sedans to loyalists alone at this point, so they have that part of the equation right. Then as the prestige of Pontiac grows (Probably 2-3 model cycles down the road) GM can begin to build on their profit margin by bumping up prices a bit.

I'm not that pretentious when it comes to brands in general, so I'll go and buy a G8 over an Infiniti or something of that ilk, but I might be in the minority of professionals in their 30s who think like that. I don't know.

I think it's about 50/50, from my personal experience. I don't think it's nearly as bad as most people say... I mean, look at the success of the first CTS and the new Enclave and Malibu. *IF* GM builds a great product, the sales will come through the door no matter what channel/division/icing they come through IMO.

A lot of my quasi-car loving friends have said that if Pontiac could put some real style in their cars (not like the recent 2004-2007 GTO), they would consider buying one.

Same here... In that respect, Pontiac is fighting it's own heritage. GM wants to play it safe because of the clientele they are trying to attract with cars like the G8 and GTO and at the same time they're trying to shut the biased journalists up about "body cladding". But the sad thing is; until GM embraces the culture of Pontiac, which is that of a brash, in your face, love it or hate it car division (For better and for worse) the division will never take off like it should.

I'm thinking out loud - but a lawyer friend (girl), my age, recently bought a Solstice GXP - man, I'll tell you something, I didn't see that coming at all (she was a Camry driver actually) - so I don't know, maybe there is some hope for Pontiac yet?? Who knows.?

My age group around here, and I'm talking off the wall Detroit haters, tends to generally love the Solstice. I spend most of my time in an art studio FULL of anti-GM, anti-car liberals. I was walking through one day and noticed a HUGE poster of a red Solstice in the middle of one of the studios. I wish I could communicate with Wagoner and Lutz, because I wanted to send them a picture of it just to let them know that they're doing the right thing and that Pontiac certainly isn't dead yet.

I could see GM really thinking that Pontiac could make for some sweet G35/3-Series/IS350 killers - but they'd have to charge a price that I think people won't be willing to pay for a Pontiac. It could all hinge on the success or failure of the G8 to see what is going to happen.

I think that is pretty much the whole issue...

CAFE throws a wrench in things for a lot of reasons (Most of which I hope don't happen) but mostly because 1) Pontiac was supposed to be RWD with Chevrolet FWD (For the most part) and GM isn't even sure about the direction that RWD will take in the future, or if it'll even be needed. (I know right, shoot me now) 2) CAFE will add huge cost into developing the kinds of cars Pontiac needs to float 3) Most worrisome, CAFE will severely limit the variety of cars we see in the coming years as the market consolidates or as the companies lose share (If the consumers react like I think they might)

So GM is probably thinking; why not cut most of our RWD offerings and fold them into the Chevrolet line up because enthusiasts also shop there and Chevrolets global presence can spread costs around better.

They're basically simplifying out of caution... What they don't see is how that mindset might bite them in the ass sooner rather than later when they can't demand the right price from a Chevrolet (because of a sagging market) to justify the development of their volume. This will hurt more since GM has lost a major portion of their enthusiasts (The people who were vital to keeping the company afloat for the 10-15 years they built sh*t) Enthusiats might be a minority, but our dedication influences a lot. Remember GM, the best advertisement is word of mouth and that's a proven Sociological fact.

Bottom line - those bozo's have totally screwed up a really cool car company. Sometimes I wonder if Bob Lutz and crew know whether they're a foot or on horseback sometimes.

I agree... But I don't think Lutz and Wagoner are bad for the company, I think it's the peons in the middle ranks and the board that still haven't got a clue about reality because they're so buried in corporate bureaucracy.

Edited February 17, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[gm4life]

This thread is old... Why do we bring up painful news?

Edited February 18, 2008 by gm4life

[wildcat]

I've made a few deductions about GM fans (and I'm one of them too) from this website: We're (for the most part) an insanely sentimental bunch. We're car enthusiasts who want to see a 1960s GM in a 2008 market place.

For myself, that's the truth! I just got through looking again at Flybrian's photos from the GM Heritage Center, and I find myself just sitting and staring at the beautiful Buicks of the '50s and '60s I admit it, that was an era that really seemed to mean something - maybe because that's when I was an impressionable, young boy interested in cars, and my father had a number of Buicks. As they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I guess I'm content to be stuck in neutral in that sentimental mindset.

[gmcbob]

For myself, that's the truth! I just got through looking again at Flybrian's photos from the GM Heritage Center, and I find myself just sitting and staring at the beautiful Buicks of the '50s and '60s I admit it, that was an era that really seemed to mean something - maybe because that's when I was an impressionable, young boy interested in cars, and my father had a number of Buicks. As they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I guess I'm content to be stuck in neutral in that sentimental mindset.

I've got this real cool book on the history of Buick (the book itself is actually history - as it was written in the early 80s). Anyway, some real nice color photos in there - some of those 60s Wildcats were just INSANELY cool!

I wish I had the money (and a patient enough wife!) to completely restore my 68 Impala.

Probably very off topic but maybe you guys can steer me in the right direction or to the right part of this website on this, or can give me some ideas. I have the original 396 engine (in my shed) - the car has a 454 out of a 69 or 70 Chevelle (I'm honestly not sure). If I were to sell it, would it be worth it to put the original 396 back in it? I'm thinking the answer is yes - but I can't do it myself - I'd have to take it to a shop to have it done (I have no garage, just a carport, no tools, no time, etc, etc...). Thoughts? I think my dad was starting to lose his mind in the last few years of his life - why he yanked the 396 out to put a 454 (which wasn't even offered in that year Impala) is beyond me.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think the 60's really was the peak of america as a society...

I'm only 25 and I still love almost everything from the 60's. Of course, "americana" is huge with a lot of my generation just because things are so "bad" now. (I say it that way because it can mean so many different things)

I really wish I had been born in the 30s or 40s a lot of the time.

As far as the Impala, I would certainly put the orignial engine back in it since it is the original.

As for the 454, I would do one of 2 things. 1) Run the numbers on it to see exactly what it is since those tend to be very desireable engines and it would probably bring a pretty good price. -or- 2) Keep it hanging around and eventually rebuild it, then buy something to put it in or rotate it and the 396 out in the Impala (Depending on how hard of a life and how many miles that motors sees)

That's just what I would do.

[gmcbob]

I think the 60's really was the peak of america as a society...

I'm only 25 and I still love almost everything from the 60's. Of course, "americana" is huge with a lot of my generation just because things are so "bad" now. (I say it that way because it can mean so many different things)

I really wish I had been born in the 30s or 40s a lot of the time.

As far as the Impala, I would certainly put the orignial engine back in it since it is the original.

As for the 454, I would do one of 2 things. 1) Run the numbers on it to see exactly what it is since those tend to be very desireable engines and it would probably bring a pretty good price. -or- 2) Keep it hanging around and eventually rebuild it, then buy something to put it in or rotate it and the 396 out in the Impala (Depending on how hard of a life and how many miles that motors sees)

That's just what I would do.

What would be awesome - if I had the time and the room, would be to restore the Impala w/the 396 in it, sell it, and keep the 454 to put in a good Chevy Nova or Chevelle from that same era (like 68 or 69). Hmmmm....

Or sell the whole thing and save up for the 2009 Camaro or a Pontiac G8...

[CARBIZ]

What you say, Wildcat, is very, very true. My father always owned Chryslers, 300s to be exact. Although my mother (after they separated), went through a series of clunkers (although the '67 Caprice with bucket seats, and the '66 Pontiac wagon in navy blue do stand out), I still loved the Mopars, especially the fuselage look of the late '60s, early '70s.

However, having said that, I still adapted well to a brand new (then) '82 Rampage and '87 Shadow (with turbo, of course), because that was really all the '80s had to offer. Having had the opportunity more recently to drive a '57 T-bird, I realize that nostalgia is largely flawed.

Perhaps it is being Canadian, but I have never allowed my judgement to be clouded by whatever is cool, whatever is 'hot.' I look at a vehicle from its practicality, function and (most of all) its intended purpose. This is one of the reasons why I have always been a proponent of minivans and have always loathed SUVs. Minivans do their intended function very well; whereas, most SUVs do not.

Vehicle purchases/ownership can be a very emotional issue, especially for people on this board. However, those that are running the ship, so to speak, have to be very careful to keep emotion out of their decisions. Whether we like it or not, insurance costs, EPA and CAFE regulations, costs - all of these factors are conspiring to make owning a vehicle more of a luxury, rather than a right.

I sincerely hope that we never see the end of the personal conveyance contraption, but in an increasingly over-freighted planet, we are going to have to start making serious decisions about how we are going to expend our resources. After all, even fighting a war over resources consumes those same resources we are willing to fight for.

Unless someone strikes oil on the moon.

[Robert Hall]

(gmcbob @ Feb 16 2008, 09:42 AM) *

I've made a few deductions about GM fans (and I'm one of them too) from this website: We're (for the most part) an insanely sentimental bunch. We're car enthusiasts who want to see a 1960s GM in a 2008 market place. I'm young (33), and I've probably succumbed to these feelings having grown up in a household where my Dad worked at GM (from the 60s through the 80s) and living in the "Rust Belt" of Western New York (now I'm in Houston, Toyota probably sells more cars in Houston than GM I would think).

I have noticed that as well... I have a bit of sentimentality for the '80s (I'm 37), but by and large, I'm more interested in the here and now and the future, since that's where I live...I have no interest in overly immersing myself in the past (or in someone else's past, since the '60s is before my time). Part of that is due to being that I work in the tech industry where it's all about moving forward, new, new, new... too much sentimentality and living in the past is unhealthy, IMHO.

I lived in the 'Rust Belt' also (Ohio Valley area, Pittsburgh and Cleveland area, then SE Michigan) and left over a decade ago... those areas seem to have been in perpetual decline for the last 30+ years, while the West has been booming and forward-looking..

[CARBIZ]

I have noticed that as well... I have a bit of sentimentality for the '80s (I'm 37), but by and large, I'm more interested in the here and now and the future, since that's where I live...I have no interest in overly immersing myself in the past (or in someone else's past, since the '60s is before my time). Part of that is due to being that I work in the tech industry where it's all about moving forward, new, new, new... too much sentimentality and living in the past is unhealthy, IMHO.

I lived in the 'Rust Belt' also (Ohio Valley area, Pittsburgh and Cleveland area, then SE Michigan) and left over a decade ago... those areas seem to have been in perpetual decline for the last 30+ years, while the West has been booming and forward-looking..

Ah, but until someone in the West realizes they have no water, then suddenly the mid-west and northeast will look like Paradise again...

[Cory Wolfe]

I have noticed that as well... I have a bit of sentimentality for the '80s (I'm 37)

And then there's little old me who's somewhat partial to vehicles of the '90s, despite how some think that's impossible.

[cire]

The disturbing thing about this article is that GM seems to think that their sportiest division can do without a proper, brand appropriate product such as a flagship, Zeta based coupe (and convertible), but thinks the division needs an imported, brand damaging trucklet from Australia. Who in the world is making these decisions? Pontiac is "CAR": this means sedans, coupes, convertibles, and maybe hatchbacks and wagons. Not all versions of this flagship coupe need a V8 in the engine bay. There is plenty of technology available to properly power this kind of car without stuffing V8s into every engine bay. GM can offer a V8 for this kind of car as an option, but it can also offer other alternatives for those customers who like the look of such a car but don't need a V8 under the hood. I fail to understand why GM can't figure this out or why GM can't develop a clear, cohesive product strategy for Pontiac.

Pontiac should be positioned as Cadillac's affordable little brother (sharing platforms but not styling). The Pontiac portfolio should consist of the following products:

* Solstice.

* Alpha based sedan (G6), coupe (G5), convertible (G5), and maybe 5-door hatchback (G6).

* Zeta based sedan (G8), coupe (G7), convertible (G7), and maybe wagon (G8).

(I personally hate the G-numeric monikers, but Pontiac (GM) seems adamant about using them).

Give these cars different types of engines and technology to make them go. Just quit giving us excuses and make it happen.

[Robert Hall]

The disturbing thing about this article is that GM seems to think that their sportiest division can do without a proper, brand appropriate product such as a flagship, Zeta based coupe (and convertible), but thinks the division needs an imported, brand damaging trucklet from Australia. Who in the world is making these decisions? Pontiac is "CAR": this means sedans, coupes, convertibles, and maybe hatchbacks and wagons. Not all versions of this flagship coupe need a V8 in the engine bay. There is plenty of technology available to properly power this kind of car without stuffing V8s into every engine bay. GM can offer a V8 for this kind of car as an option, but it can also offer other alternatives for those customers who like the look of such a car but don't need a V8 under the hood. I fail to understand why GM can't figure this out or why GM can't develop a clear, cohesive product strategy for Pontiac.

Pontiac should be positioned as Cadillac's affordable little brother (sharing platforms but not styling). The Pontiac portfolio should consist of the following products:

* Solstice.

* Alpha based sedan (G6), coupe (G5), convertible (G5), and maybe 5-door hatchback (G6).

* Zeta based sedan (G8), coupe (G7), convertible (G7), and maybe wagon (G8).

(I personally hate the G-numeric monikers, but Pontiac (GM) seems adamant about using them).

Give these cars different types of engines and technology to make them go. Just quit giving us excuses and make it happen.

It seems like they are trying currently to maintain Pontiac on the cheap.... a coupe would require $$$$ to develop one, since the G8 sedan and ute are based on existing Oz models.

Pontiac definitely needs coupes....their performance history was built on coupes (Pontiac performance sedans being a recent thing)...

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I still think Pontiac needs a Firebird. Peas and carrots. Ozzy and Sharon. Aquila and Priscilla, Taurus, Sable, and MKS/Continental. I know most people will equate Firebird with Trans Am, and both with mullets, but I couldn't disagree more. To me, Firebird states the mission-affordable, slightly upscale of Chevrolet, and more performance emphasis (yes, I'm thinking first and second-generation mostly here). Create a Firebird, add a Sprint trim with the Cadillac CTS' DI 3.6-liter V-6, and you'll start to see the one and only way that Pontiac can exist. (Or at least apply the Sprint/DI V-6 treatment to G8). I'll give you another hint: its not a grille job to a Chevrolet that is/should make a real Pontiac. As long as Pontiac, Buick, and GMC can all co-exist together, fine, but otherwise, Irworry about the purpose of Pontiac, as there's really nothing there, IMO, that grabs me, cause nothing in the line, save for the G8 or the departed Grand Prix does anything for me (Solstice is nice, I like its front, but I prefer the similar Saturn Sky still).