Troubling article from Autoweek online

[ocnblu]

"No Trans Am for Pontiac"

By JAMIE LAREAU, AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers will get 12 new or special-edition vehicles over the next 20 months--but they won't get a Pontiac Trans Am.

Pontiac had lobbied for a sibling vehicle to the Chevrolet Camaro, which is scheduled to arrive in February 2009.

General Motors' plan to make Pontiac a rear-wheel-drive performance car division is likely to be scaled back because of fuel economy regulations, GM leaders told dealers at the National Automobile Dealers Association annual convention this past weekend.

One dealer said the business case for the Trans Am didn't compute.

"It was an economic situation," said Lynn Thompson, owner of Thompson Motor Sales in Springfield, Mo. "It would cost $200 million to bring out the vehicle."

Pontiac will remain a car-only brand for the foreseeable future, dealers were told. But because of new legislation requiring vehicles to reach a fleet average of 35 mpg by 2020, Pontiac might not end up as GM's performance division, dealers said they were told.

"The plan is being tweaked because of the gas situation," Thompson said. "I hope they don't give up on performance because they don't have to. You can use four-cylinder engines to achieve incredible power."

Buick-Pontiac-GMC will give dealers six new or special-edition vehicles--such as the special-edition GMC Sierra pickup, called Pro Grade, this year. They will get another six next year, dealers who attended the meeting told Automotive News.

Executives also told dealers that GM will build nearly 55,000 Buick Enclave crossovers this year. Dealers said Jim Bunnell, head of Buick-Pontiac-GMC, told them GM increased Enclave production by 41 percent from the initial production plan. A dealer said Bunnell told them Buick built 6,400 Enclaves in January, and then added, "But it's still not enough."

[thegriffon]

It only has to mean, they only get smaller, lighter 4-cylinder cars, no V8s, and no V6s except in the GXP Models.

[wildcat]

"The plan is being tweaked because of the gas situation," Thompson said. "I hope they don't give up on performance because they don't have to. You can use four-cylinder engines to achieve incredible power."

I guess that means there could be some sporty, performance Pontiacs but with 4-cylinder engines.

Buick-Pontiac-GMC will give dealers six new or special-edition vehicles--such as the special-edition GMC Sierra pickup, called Pro Grade, this year. They will get another six next year, dealers who attended the meeting told Automotive News.

So for this year what do we know?

1. Pontiac G8

2. Pontiac G8 ST

3. GMC "Pro Grade" Sierra pickup

4. Buick LaCrosse Super

5. Buick Lucerne Super

6. ???

Then for next year?

1. Buick LaCrosse Epsilon II/NG

2. Buick LaCrosse Epsilon II/NG hybrid (knowing how GM counts)

3. Pontiac Solstice Targa???

Edited February 13, 2008 by wildcat

[CARBIZ]

Suddenly, it's 1980.........

At worst, we may see a temporary (5 to 10 year) 'hump' as the manufacturers adjust to the new reality. I lived through the onslaught of the K-car, J-car, Escort and Tercel. So will we all survive it again. Look at the hp numbers that a typical 4 cylinder today put out, then compare that with an 8 cylinder of 1980. The engineering advances are remarkable.

The new CAFE numbers will scare the manufacturers temporarily, but then they will adapt. Fun will never go away, it may just go on hiatus for a few years while the engineers figure out how to make fun vehicles that get 45+ mpg.

[pow]

Who needs displacement when you've got advanced turbocharging, electric assist, direct injection, and six or seven gears?

A four-cylinder Solstice GXP does 0-60 quicker than a V8 Trans Am.

[ocnblu]

Let me clarify: my "troubling" comment stems from the vague tone in regards to Pontiac's future. I know CAFE has every manufacturer's plans in flux, but the question remains: now that GM is backing away from reaffirming their earlier plan to make Pontiac all-RWD in the coming years, will this give them an excuse to totally give up on the brand altogether?

[hyperv6]

This is not anything earth shattering as we already knew there would be no Trans Am. We also knew THe G8 was it for the Zeta with the GTO gone. We also knew there was a good change the Alpha would replace the G6 in the future without the V8.

This is much the same statement as AutoWeek and Please note there will be 12 new and special editions car introduced in the next 20 months at Buick GMC and Pontiac. It was stated in bot storys. A few of those will be Pontiacs. Solstice Coupe or Targa? G8 ST or GXP?

Now with that said here is what was in the Aitomotive News.

Since Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers are in the process of consolidating their showrooms, many were likely hoping for a halo product that could draw customers into the showroom. Hey, wouldn't a version of the upcoming Chevy Camaro badged as a Pontiac Trans Am revival do the trick? Maybe, but at the NADA conference this week, GM told these dealers that a Pontiac Trans Am is not going to happen. Blame the new, more stringent federal fuel economy regulations for killing off this cool idea. In fact, the new regs also mean that the automaker will be scaling back on transforming Pontiac into a rear-wheel-drive performance division. Though GM assured dealers that Pontiac will remain a car-only brand, the assurance that a debacle like the Aztec won't happen a second time is little comfort to those who were hoping Pontiac would once again be the brand that builds excitement. And who says performance has to be totally sacrificed for fuel economy? New powertrains are being developed that make the most of the internal combustion engine's efficiency, and a twin-turbo, direct-inject four-cylinder can make gobs of power while being much more efficient than an equally powerful V6 or even V8.

GM did inform Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers that they would be getting 12 new or special-edition vehicles over the next 20 months. A special-edition GMC Sierra pickup called Pro Grade was mentioned, for instance. Still, the quashing of any hope for a new Trans Am means that the number of vehicles slated to share the Camaro's rear-wheel-drive Zeta platform in the U.S. is dwindling. Only the Pontiac G8 and G8 ST car-based truck are confirmed, with Zeta-based rear-wheel-drive sedans for Buick and Chevy still up in the air. This means that without the ability to spread out costs across a number of new vehicles, the price of producing these vehicles will likely be high and passed on to the performance-minded consumer.

[source: Automotive News]

The bottom line is many of the worlds best performing cars today are not V8 car. The 4 and Six cylinders are today providing enough power to beat any of the muscle cars of the past while driving circles around them. Hell with only a few mods from the GM perfromance book you can move a GXP solstice well into a reliable 420 HP+ range. Oh and yes you will still have good torque.

Many of the smaller sedans will provide us with cars that will run with much of what we have today. Lutz knows what sells and we will not have to give up much in return. But some will have to get over the stigma that you have to have a V8 to have fun.

We will not see 1980 again as this is 2008 and we will see all not just GM add many more Turbo's and DI in just the next few years. THese engines will be a far cry from the GN and T types that were not engineered correctly like todays engines. We will still have V8's but they will be the odd engine out and only in more expensive cars like Cadillac or the Vette with much less displacment.

Stop the panic as most here are informed enough to know better than the average Motor Trend reader.

Edited February 13, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Sorry, no V8 and I'm gone.

Say what you will, but I'm not interested in small cars, V6s or 4 bangers. And you can forget all about FWD - never, and I mean never, will I buy one.

Vettes and Caddys aren't really my thing and I'm not willing to spend the cash on them.

So, one more rip-roaring V8 Pontiac and I'm all done with new cars until what I want becomes available again.

[ocnblu]

Holden and Pontiac, dead? Why should we let this happen?

GM will methodically move toward 2 world brands... copying Toyota, Nissan and Honda. It will be Chevrolet and Cadillac only. I honestly don't see how they expect to maintain any semblance of leadership with a long-range plan like that.

Edited February 13, 2008 by ocnblu

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

"No Trans Am for Pontiac"

By JAMIE LAREAU, AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers will get 12 new or special-edition vehicles over the next 20 months--but they won't get a Pontiac Trans Am.

Pontiac had lobbied for a sibling vehicle to the Chevrolet Camaro, which is scheduled to arrive in February 2009.

GOOD!

The last thing Pontiac needs is an identical coupe to Chevrolet. And also, the LAST thing Pontiac needs is a sports coupe based on a heavy assed sedan platform. C'mon guys! Common sense.

Pontiac needs SOMETHING, but a rebadged Camaro it ain't.

General Motors' plan to make Pontiac a rear-wheel-drive performance car division is likely to be scaled back because of fuel economy regulations, GM leaders told dealers at the National Automobile Dealers Association annual convention this past weekend.

...f@#k... Someone needs to enlighten GM that RWD doesn't have to mean big n' fuel thirsty. Are they really this stupid?

Kiss Pontiac goodbye fellas. And GM can kiss my ass goodbye.

One dealer said the business case for the Trans Am didn't compute.

Obviously!

Pontiac will remain a car-only brand for the foreseeable future, dealers were told. But because of new legislation requiring vehicles to reach a fleet average of 35 mpg by 2020, Pontiac might not end up as GM's performance division, dealers said they were told.

So what is it going to be? I guess this bull$h! is a result of Chevrolet and Cadillac whining? (Since apparently those are the only two divisions that will matter in the future... apparently)

"The plan is being tweaked because of the gas situation," Thompson said. "I hope they don't give up on performance because they don't have to. You can use four-cylinder engines to achieve incredible power."

I agree! But one V8 needs to be offered at least.

Executives also told dealers that GM will build nearly 55,000 Buick Enclave crossovers this year. Dealers said Jim Bunnell, head of Buick-Pontiac-GMC, told them GM increased Enclave production by 41 percent from the initial production plan. A dealer said Bunnell told them Buick built 6,400 Enclaves in January, and then added, "But it's still not enough."

Looks like GM's gonna water the Enclave down.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

But some will have to get over the stigma that you have to have a V8 to have fun.

So now my choice to buy a V8 is a "stigma"

Well, I think the choice to buy a hybrid is a horrible one as well (The batteries will destroy our environment) but I don't insult people because of it.

No V8 available = No sale.

Simple as that. V8's need to be offered in stuff other than Cadillacs and Corvettes.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Holden and Pontiac, dead? Why should we let this happen?

GM will methodically move toward 2 world brands... copying Toyota, Nissan and Honda. It will be Chevrolet and Cadillac only. I honestly don't see how they expect to maintain any semblance of leadership with a long-range plan like that.

If that is the case, then I hope the company burns in an agonizing death.

[Cory Wolfe]

Who needs displacement when you've got advanced turbocharging, electric assist, direct injection, and six or seven gears?

A four-cylinder Solstice GXP does 0-60 quicker than a V8 Trans Am.

Agreed. No need to abandon RWD. There are plenty of fuel efficient ways to get performance. I hope GM isn't as, for lack of a better term, stubborn as some of the traditionalists that want everything to be powered by V8s. Some of the best 'bang for the buck' cars are turbo-charged 4cyl compacts, like the EVO. Take that recipe, add actual style, a RWD layout, and you should have a great line up of fuel efficient performance vehicles.

[Camino LS6]

Agreed. No need to abandon RWD. There are plenty of fuel efficient ways to get performance. I hope GM isn't as, for lack of a better term, stubborn as some of the traditionalists that want everything to be powered by V8s. Some of the best 'bang for the buck' cars are turbo-charged 4cyl compacts, like the EVO. Take that recipe, add actual style, a RWD layout, and you should have a great line up of fuel efficient performance vehicles.

Not everything powered by a V8 BV, just something powered by a V8. We've been deprived of good RWD V8 cars too long to have them all snatched away now.

[GMTruckGuy74]

...Buick-Pontiac-GMC will give dealers six new or special-edition vehicles--such as the special-edition GMC Sierra pickup, called Pro Grade, this year. They will get another six next year, dealers who attended the meeting told Automotive News.

Well, that was enough to gain my attention, so I checked out the ordering guide. Seems as if it's only available on the SLE1 (3SA package) Extended & Crew Cab models and includes the following:

Pro Grade Edition, includes (LY5) Vortec 5.3L V8 SFI engine, (LC9) Vortec 5.3L V8 SFI FlexFuel engine or (LMG) Vortec 5.3L V8 SFI FlexFuel engine, (G80) heavy-duty automatic locking rear differential, (Z82) heavy-duty trailering equipment, (AG1) 6-way power driver seat adjuster and (P60) 4 - 20" x 8.5" (50.8 cm x 21.6 cm) 6-spoke machined aluminum wheels

1 - Requires T*10753 or T*10543 models. Not available with (PCR) Sierra NFL Edition, (PDU) Power Pack Plus, (PDA) Texas Edition, (PEB) South Central Value Package or (PCL) California Package. When any (PCM) SLE1 Preferred Package is ordered (N88) wheels are replaced with (P60) wheels.

Doesn't seem like anything special to me

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Agreed. No need to abandon RWD. There are plenty of fuel efficient ways to get performance. I hope GM isn't as, for lack of a better term, stubborn as some of the traditionalists that want everything to be powered by V8s. Some of the best 'bang for the buck' cars are turbo-charged 4cyl compacts, like the EVO. Take that recipe, add actual style, a RWD layout, and you should have a great line up of fuel efficient performance vehicles.

OKay..

Am I asking for every car in the GM stable to be RWD/V8? I don't think so...

All I ask is that I have a few more options than a Corvette or a Cadillac.

Gas is not an issue for some of us.

Like it or not; Pontiac should ALWAYS have a V8 flagship car if it is to be the 'performance division' of General Motors. Leave the turbocharged V6 halos for Buick, Saab and Saturn.

Jesus man, it's no wonder america gets eff-ed over so much these days... 2 months into the fuel economy regs and most of you "enthusiasts" are already throwing in the towel and swallowing whatever is shoved down your throat. Whatever happened to innovation?

Why do people buy Abercrombie Jeans when American Eagle Jeans will suffice? Why do I buy a V8 when a V6 will suffice? Freedom of choice! (Which is slowly being taken away in our new homogeneous misery that is reality)

Edited February 13, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Blake Noble]

Agreed. No need to abandon RWD. There are plenty of fuel efficient ways to get performance. I hope GM isn't as, for lack of a better term, stubborn as some of the traditionalists that want everything to be powered by V8s. Some of the best 'bang for the buck' cars are turbo-charged 4cyl compacts, like the EVO. Take that recipe, add actual style, a RWD layout, and you should have a great line up of fuel efficient performance vehicles.

BV, that formula works wonderfully for compact and mid-sized cars. But I guess I'm just as stubborn as everyone else when I say a large rear-drive sedan has to offer at least one V8 engine. It doesn't have to be a whole slew of them, just one at the minimum.

I was watching Top Gear on You Tube (seems to be a frequent thing here lately) and they were reviewing the Astra VXR. Watching that car torque steer was in one particular part of the review, well ... it reinforces the idea that a "front-drive performance car" is little more than an oxymoron and mostly a bad idea. Feeding anything over 200 horsepower to the front wheels of a car that are also expected to steer the car, well, it takes the handling and throws it right out the window.

Edited February 13, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Cory Wolfe]

Not everything powered by a V8 BV, just something powered by a V8. We've been deprived of good RWD V8 cars too long to have them all snatched away now.

OKay..

Am I asking for every car in the GM stable to be RWD/V8? I don't think so...

All I ask is that I have a few more options than a Corvette or a Cadillac.

Like it or not; Pontiac should ALWAYS have a V8 flagship car if it is to be the 'performance division' of General Motors. Leave the turbocharged V6 halos for Buick, Saab and Saturn.

BV, that formula works wonderfully for compact and mid-sized cars. But I guess I'm just as stubborn as everyone else when I say a large rear-drive sedan has to offer at least one V8 engine. It doesn't have to be a whole slew of them, just one at the minimum.

Now, now, guys. I'm not saying V8s should go the way of the Yugo...

I'm just saying there are many options of getting around the fuel economy issues without sacrificing power or performance. It doesn't have to be a "V8 or nothing" sort of situation, which is what the article seems to describe GM doing. As well, if a more fuel efficient package can produce the same results, is there necessarily a need for one? In those cases, it just seems there is some stubbornness going on. Not that I don't blame you for wanting something you like.

Personally, I find V8s to be passe'.... Everyone and their brother either has one or wants one. I'll take rotary engines, boxer engines, inline engines, etc... As well as forced induction like supercharged and turbocharging. But I just have an inclination for oddballish things in general.

Edited February 13, 2008 by blackviper8891

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm just saying there are many options of getting around the fuel economy issues without sacrificing power or performance. It doesn't have to be a "V8 or nothing" sort of situation, which is what the article seems to describe GM doing. As well, if a more fuel efficient package can produce the same results, is there necessarily a need for one? In those cases, it just seems there is some stubbornness going on. Not that I don't blame you for wanting something you like.

True that...

By the sound of things, it almost seems that GM was betting on a whole line up of Zeta cars to bring Pontiac back from the dead. I don't understand why GM thinks performance must equal Zeta. They have an excellent platform in Kappa that they could promote more to shore up Pontiac's image (Seriously, the GXP has little exposure and since the initial push, the Solstice in general has been forgotten about) The possibilities are endless... Next gen Kappa, Alpha, AWD Epsilon, Zeta in one form or another.

GM management must be pretty blind if they can't look around and see the success of the EVO, WRX, Mazda 3, Civic Si (More image, I'll admit) etc.

Edited February 13, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Pontiac, dead? Why should we let this happen?

Tick-Tock :AH-HA_wink:

Edited February 13, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[Robert Hall]

Tick-Tock :AH-HA_wink:

I'd like to see Pontiac thrive...but I keep coming back to the hard facts---GM has about 25% market share in the US...do they REALLY need 8 brands???

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'd like to see Pontiac thrive...but I keep coming back to the hard facts---GM has about 25% market share in the US...do they REALLY need 8 brands???

In a fragmenting market like the U.S.

Absolutely!

More brands gives GM the opportunity to cater more specifically to the clientele. And that's where the strength lies if GM can EVER get the divisions focused correctly.

At Toyota, the client buys an appliance so generic that it appeals to millions. At GM, the customer should be able to choose a more specific product that BETTER fits his/her needs.

If you want luxury, go to Buick. If you want exclusive luxury, go to Cadillac. If you want performance over function, go to Pontiac. If you want a classy truck, go to GMC. If you want an off road machine, go to Hummer... etc, etc.

The problem is; focusing the divisions correctly and funneling the right product to them is going to take a while. And I'm not sure GM or 'the street' is prepared to wait that long.

Edited February 13, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[prinzSD]

Not everything powered by a V8 BV, just something powered by a V8. We've been deprived of good RWD V8 cars too long to have them all snatched away now.

I agree, just offer us at least the option of ordering the V-8. Call me a purist, I do not care about how fast four and six cylinders are, I like the sound of the the V-8. I have been driving for 30 years and all my cars have been V-8 powered. In addition I do not want the added complexity and extra parts that can break in a turbo, supercharger, etc. I want a relaible motor where I won't worry about more expensive repair bills. I acknowledge how fast the EVOs are and give them respect (no matter how ugly they are) but that is not my cup of tea. I cringe everytime I hear the high piched whine of a high stressed 4 banger.

[prinzSD]

OKay..

Am I asking for every car in the GM stable to be RWD/V8? I don't think so...

All I ask is that I have a few more options than a Corvette or a Cadillac.

Gas is not an issue for some of us.

Like it or not; Pontiac should ALWAYS have a V8 flagship car if it is to be the 'performance division' of General Motors. Leave the turbocharged V6 halos for Buick, Saab and Saturn.

Jesus man, it's no wonder america gets eff-ed over so much these days... 2 months into the fuel economy regs and most of you "enthusiasts" are already throwing in the towel and swallowing whatever is shoved down your throat. Whatever happened to innovation?

Why do people buy Abercrombie Jeans when American Eagle Jeans will suffice? Why do I buy a V8 when a V6 will suffice? Freedom of choice! (Which is slowly being taken away in our new homogeneous misery that is reality)

Amen, I don't want to pay Cadillac or Corvette prices to drive a rear wheel drive V-8 performance car of some sort.

[CARBIZ]

Do you think running 8 marketing divisions, 8 sales divisions, 8 sets of middle managment, 8 sets of dealers...do you think all of that is FREE?

The real trouble here is that the brand management teams of the 90s have become victims of their own success. This constant splintering and fragmenting of the market is costing a lot of money. Don't like wagons? Let's call them SUVs. Don't like hatchbacks? Let's call them '5 doors.' Government sticks us with CAFE, lets build a lot of trucks.

The chickens have come home to roost, folks.

Our futures are being sacrificed on the Alter of Choice. It makes far more sense to have one or two strong models represented in each category, rather than 5 or 6 - just in the hopes that some wandering spirit will like what you build! Ever hear of the Law of Diminishing Return?

I want Oldsmobile back. I lost a lot of customers over that, but it is not gonna happen. GM needs 3 or 4 strong brands, not 8 that are slitting each other's throats.

Ever play Musical Chairs?

[Robert Hall]

Do you think running 8 marketing divisions, 8 sales divisions, 8 sets of middle managment, 8 sets of dealers...do you think all of that is FREE?

The real trouble here is that the brand management teams of the 90s have become victims of their own success. This constant splintering and fragmenting of the market is costing a lot of money. Don't like wagons? Let's call them SUVs. Don't like hatchbacks? Let's call them '5 doors.' Government sticks us with CAFE, lets build a lot of trucks.

The chickens have come home to roost, folks.

Our futures are being sacrificed on the Alter of Choice. It makes far more sense to have one or two strong models represented in each category, rather than 5 or 6 - just in the hopes that some wandering spirit will like what you build! Ever hear of the Law of Diminishing Return?

I want Oldsmobile back. I lost a lot of customers over that, but it is not gonna happen. GM needs 3 or 4 strong brands, not 8 that are slitting each other's throats.

Ever play Musical Chairs?

For too many years, it seems like many models within GM's brands have competed more with each other than with the rest of the market...

[prinzSD]

For too many years, it seems like many models within GM's brands have competed more with each other than with the rest of the market...

Exactly, thats why they need focused products for each division. We don't need the same product for each division. Chevy is about to get the Traverse. What will happen to the Enclave sales, not to mention the Acadias and Outlooks. It's ridiculous to have that many models of the same thing. It's not the glory days of GM where they owned the market and could afford it. GM should not make more than 2 versions of each platform, and spread ou among the divisions. I do not see how Hummer in this new age of CAFE is pertinent. Saab is another brand that is marginal, I rarely see any on the road.

[ZL-1]

Doesn't seem like anything special to me

Never understimate the power of marketing folks

Tick-Tock :AH-HA_wink:

:rotflmao:

Edited February 13, 2008 by ZL-1

[Camino LS6]

3 or 4 brands is essentially what you will have once the consolidation of B-P-G and Cad-Saab-Hummer is completed. The way GM is going about this is the right way to go - consolidation without killing brands. It is a very smart approach, much smarter than the way Oldsmobile was handled.

[Z-06]

3 or 4 brands is essentially what you will have once the consolidation of B-P-G and Cad-Saab-Hummer is completed. The way GM is going about this is the right way to go - consolidation without killing brands. It is a very smart approach, much smarter than the way Oldsmobile was handled.

If that is the case then 4-5 brands have to be euthanized. I am not saying which ones. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

If that is the case then 4-5 brands have to be euthanized. I am not saying which ones. :AH-HA_wink:

I think you miss the point. No brands need to be euthanized because of the consolidations.

[Z-06]

I think you miss the point. No brands need to be euthanized because of the consolidations.

Did you mean that with Chevy, B-P-G, Saturn-Saab, Caddy-Hummer will be the 4 brands?

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Did you mean that with Chevy, B-P-G, Saturn-Saab, Caddy-Hummer will be the 4 brands?

You mean Chevrolet,Buick-GMC(most likely),Saturn ,and Cadillac-Hummer-Saab.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[Z-06]

You mean Chevrolet,Buick-GMC(most likely),Saturn ,and Cadillac-Hummer-Saab.

Tick-Tock eh?

Whatever for the last four. They can even make them as one mega dealership and thus form "three" brands.

Edited February 13, 2008 by smallchevy

[Toyota.vs.GM]

And by the way,how does everybody like the idea of Chevrolet getting a Alpha sedan instead of Ponitac.

[Camino LS6]

And by the way,how does everybody like the idea of Chevrolet getting a Alpha sedan instead of Ponitac.

Not at all.

[Robert Hall]

Not at all.

Chevy has so many models now, I don't see the need for them to have yet another...Pontiac, on the other hand..

[ocnblu]

I will always believe that Alpha is perfect for Pontiac's mission. It could also be the basis for a sweet little Cadillac. But it seems a bit incongruous and redundant at Chevrolet.

[hyperv6]

As for the V8 many of you will have only the choice of a few V8 cars and just old cars. If your ok with that fine if not deal with it in your own way.

I for one will not forgo owning a new car because it does not have a 8 cylinder in it.

I once swore I would never own anything but a V8 but after some drives in some of the worlds best cars that were not powered by 8 cylinders I found I was very short sighted and I will be the first to admit that I was wrong to ever think that way.

If you limit yourself to only V8 cars you are only going to miss some sweet rides. It is like only liking one car and rejecting all others you will miss out on some sweet rides in your life.

On too many brands that is not the issue it is too many models. With the way GM is cutting down on models and rolling the brands into one dealer is a great way to keep the brands alive and not have too many models.

Seems like GM is going back to their roots in some sense. In the past you bought a Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Olds or Cadillac. At most you had a choice of a few trim levels on one or two models. This is the direction GM is going today.

The GM of tomarrow is going to be the brands we love and have today but most will only have 4-6 models. I see Chevy as the only full range brand as a value leader. In the end we will have the same number of brands selling less models each in hlf as many dealers. This is a formula that will work but will take some time to get done.

A Pontiac with 5 srong models vs a Pontiac tring to pass off Vibes and Torrents as Pontiacs. By keping a G8 and solstice then revamping the G6 as a Alph AWD and then adding one other model that may fit the Mini mold to replace the G5 would go a long way in selling Pontiacs to every one and not just Pontiac fans.

The GTO and Trans Am are dead and in the past it is time to move forward and start winning people would buy Acuras, Audis, Mini, Subaru's, etc. You either keep up with the times or you get phased out and that is what has happened to Olds and can happen to Pontiac if they do not advance and win younger buyers.

You car buyers want to buy Pontiac but GM has given them little to chose from. Don't send them away.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

3 or 4 brands is essentially what you will have once the consolidation of B-P-G and Cad-Saab-Hummer is completed. The way GM is going about this is the right way to go - consolidation without killing brands. It is a very smart approach, much smarter than the way Oldsmobile was handled.

I was sitting here thinking that to myself...

Technically, GM only has 4 divisions now; Chevrolet, Saturn, Cadillac/Saab/Hummer and Pontiac/Buick/GMC.

To further muddy the waters Saturn is, for all intents and purposes, Opel and Buick/Pontiac is, for all intents and purposes, Holden.

GM is doing the right thing.

As for the Lambdas... I don't really think 4 is too many. I think the performance of the Outlook played into the decision on the Traverse. The Outlook is essentially a niche entry (like the Enclave was supposed to be) and the Chevrolet was brought in to "pay the bills" for development. I'm sure Chevrolet was pressing for a version anyway, especially since the Trailblazer appears to be DOA.

I don't think the Traverse will affect Acadia or Enclave sales. But unfortunately it might 'finish off' the Outlook unless GM can either 1) get creative or 2) realizes that the Outlook sells to a clientele that would never consider a Traverse.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

And by the way,how does everybody like the idea of Chevrolet getting a Alpha sedan instead of Ponitac.

I thought you were on the side of Pontiac... And Zeta. Why the sudden change of heart?

And, as for Chevrolet getting Alpha, that's the dumbest idea GM has had since they hired Zarella. Alpha is PERFECT for Pontiac and the division could be saved if GM wanted to save it.

Oh well, ignorance is bliss and we all knew a purposeful, healthy GM would not last for long. One step forward, three steps back... Lets just hope GM's grave is but 2 steps back this time so we can end this disgrace for good.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

As for the V8 many of you will have only the choice of a few V8 cars and just old cars. If your ok with that fine if not deal with it in your own way.

I for one will not forgo owning a new car because it does not have a 8 cylinder in it.

I once swore I would never own anything but a V8 but after some drives in some of the worlds best cars that were not powered by 8 cylinders I found I was very short sighted and I will be the first to admit that I was wrong to ever think that way.

If you limit yourself to only V8 cars you are only going to miss some sweet rides. It is like only liking one car and rejecting all others you will miss out on some sweet rides in your life.

So, we can't try to innovate? We're just supposed to give up for "the greater good of everyone else?" It's just more of the same; we the people are being asked to sacrifice a little bit more of our freedom for some stupid money/political fueled hysteria. What will they ask us to give up tomorrow; control of our heating systems? Oh.. wait...

I say f8ck "the greater good of everyone else" I don't really care if your kids have oil or clean air, just as I don't care that the rest of the world isn't yet on par with the U.S. Reality = survival of the fittest and I am (we are) the fittest.

You can call wanting to own a V8 close minded if you want, but keep in mind that I never said I wanted anything besides the freedom to choose a V8 in my car. I'm not trying to force my powertrain of choice/ political agenda on others.

A Pontiac with 5 srong models vs a Pontiac tring to pass off Vibes and Torrents as Pontiacs. By keping a G8 and solstice then revamping the G6 as a Alph AWD and then adding one other model that may fit the Mini mold to replace the G5 would go a long way in selling Pontiacs to every one and not just Pontiac fans.

The GTO and Trans Am are dead and in the past it is time to move forward and start winning people would buy Acuras, Audis, Mini, Subaru's, etc. You either keep up with the times or you get phased out and that is what has happened to Olds and can happen to Pontiac if they do not advance and win younger buyers.

You car buyers want to buy Pontiac but GM has given them little to chose from. Don't send them away.

Funny you should say that... Since Oldsmobile had the most competitive products GM ever offered at the time they were phased out. Seems they were keeping up with the times MUCH better than any other GM division, yet they got the ax. My point is; GM needs to not let politics and ignorance dictate the state of their business as they seem to once again be doing.

Edited February 14, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[thegriffon]

I was sitting here thinking that to myself...

Technically, GM only has 4 divisions now; Chevrolet, Saturn, Cadillac/Saab/Hummer and Pontiac/Buick/GMC.

To further muddy the waters Saturn is, for all intents and purposes, Opel and Buick/Pontiac is, for all intents and purposes, Holden.

GM is doing the right thing.

As for the Lambdas... I don't really think 4 is too many. I think the performance of the Outlook played into the decision on the Traverse. The Outlook is essentially a niche entry (like the Enclave was supposed to be) and the Chevrolet was brought in to "pay the bills" for development. I'm sure Chevrolet was pressing for a version anyway, especially since the Trailblazer appears to be DOA.

I don't think the Traverse will affect Acadia or Enclave sales. But unfortunately it might 'finish off' the Outlook unless GM can either 1) get creative or 2) realizes that the Outlook sells to a clientele that would never consider a Traverse.

How many times do I have to tell you Americans, Holden is nothing like Pontiac, it's more like Chevrolet Mexico, a mix of Chevrolets (from Korea) and Opels (from Germany). The only other models it gets are the Rodeo (a Thai-built Colorado) and the locally built Commodore, Caprice and Ute, and all of those three (and by far the majority of the Caprice built) are also badged as Chevrolets in other markets. Matching Holden with Pontiac is just wishful thinking.

[Chevy Nick]

Then for next year?

1. Buick LaCrosse Epsilon II/NG

2. Buick LaCrosse Epsilon II/NG hybrid (knowing how GM counts)

3. Pontiac Solstice Targa???

How about a G8 GXP?

Who needs displacement when you've got advanced turbocharging, electric assist, direct injection, and six or seven gears?

A four-cylinder Solstice GXP does 0-60 quicker than a V8 Trans Am.

Not an LS1 Trans Am.

I hope GM isn't as, for lack of a better term, stubborn as some of the traditionalists that want everything to be powered by V8s. Some of the best 'bang for the buck' cars are turbo-charged 4cyl compacts, like the EVO.

$33k for a car that runs 13's is a good 'bang for your the buck'? What would you call a $41k car that runs 11's? A mind-blowing bang for buck ? Hint: 2008 Vette

[hyperv6]

So, we can't try to innovate? We're just supposed to give up for "the greater good of everyone else?" It's just more of the same; we the people are being asked to sacrifice a little bit more of our freedom for some stupid money/political fueled hysteria. What will they ask us to give up tomorrow; control of our heating systems? Oh.. wait...

I say f8ck "the greater good of everyone else" I don't really care if your kids have oil or clean air, just as I don't care that the rest of the world isn't yet on par with the U.S. Reality = survival of the fittest and I am (we are) the fittest.

You can call wanting to own a V8 close minded if you want, but keep in mind that I never said I wanted anything besides the freedom to choose a V8 in my car. I'm not trying to force my powertrain of choice/ political agenda on others.

Funny you should say that... Since Oldsmobile had the most competitive products GM ever offered at the time they were phased out. Seems they were keeping up with the times MUCH better than any other GM division, yet they got the ax. My point is; GM needs to not let politics and ignorance dictate the state of their business as they seem to once again be doing.

You Find a way to make a V8 that will make 30 MPG and we all be glad to keep them around. It is simple as that. To say anything less than a V8 is just very short sighted. If we should complain about anything it should be to still make RWD cars.

As for Olds, their last cars were better than most other GM cars but looking back they were still crap. The styling was different bit not so much better and the quality was up but they were still behind times and most other car lines. Olds needed as car that was better than other companies cars not just a better Olds.

[gmcbob]

I've made a few deductions about GM fans (and I'm one of them too) from this website: We're (for the most part) an insanely sentimental bunch. We're car enthusiasts who want to see a 1960s GM in a 2008 market place. I'm young (33), and I've probably succumbed to these feelings having grown up in a household where my Dad worked at GM (from the 60s through the 80s) and living in the "Rust Belt" of Western New York (now I'm in Houston, Toyota probably sells more cars in Houston than GM I would think).

You know - if you dig GM and want to see them as a viable car company going forward, we're probably going to have to let go of our emotions when it comes to the "brands" (they used to be more like their own companies back in the 'good ole days'). As much as we hate this, the consolidation of the dealer network may be something that we all end up thinking is really cool. I'd absolutely hate to see Pontiac go the way of the dodo bird and Olds, but hell, if it ended up meaning that the current B-P-GMC dealers ended up with a Zeta Park Avenue or something (and my guess is that there would be a version of it sold with a Buick badge that would be close in price to the G8) - wouldn't that almost be better in a way? I think it has a nicer interior than the Pontiac. And the new "Alpha" car - what if that were sold as a Buick Regal or something?

Most people - like the 99.9% of Americans who don't frequent this website, probably don't care much about (or for) Pontiac these days. It sucks. It hurts. Its painful. It's change - we hate change, it's tough to cope with the change - but unfortunately for the company we support and want to see come back into its own (viable, inspiring, maker of cool rides), we may have to struggle with the change and maybe, just maybe, become fans and spokespeople for brands we never considered within the GM empire.

I don't know - if Pontiac were suddenly gone, but there were still a smaller (3500 lbs, IS350 sized) DI 3.6L powered Chevy or Buick, wouldn't that be enough to satisfy our thirst for rear drive performance and still buy GM? Hell, a car with Riv type styling, built in America on a small rwd. platform with that 304 hp Caddy DI V6 would probably be cooler than a G8 in my eyes. Moreover, if you could walk in the showroom and see that said car next to the V8 powered Park Avenue, wouldn't that be pretty bad ass? The more I think about it, if Buick were given Alpha (Buick Regal?) that would be awesome. If it meant killing Pontiac to do something like that, then so be it. We may have to let go of our emotions about Pontiac and start seeing the possibilities with the remaining brands.

Incidentally - I've owned a car from every brand but Caddy - all have been rear drive too! hahaha. keep in mind, not of all of these were owned at the same time. Just the Jimmy and the old Impala.

1982 Buick Regal - first car. It was actually a POS but it was second hand and the people I got it from didn't maintain it

1986 Pontiac Parisienne - drove this car in 11th and 12th grade. It was awesome. It had some kind of trailer towing package or something so I think it had some tall gears. It had a 4 bbl carbuerated 5.0L V8. It also had some interesting styling and exterior features that you just won't find at all on today's modern cars (fender skirts, wire wheels, two tone tan and brown) - this thing would actually run with and almost beat my friend's brand new 1991 V8 Thunderbird. It was hilarious.

1988 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme RWD - last year they made rear drive Cutlass. What's odd was, all the other divisions had the new FWD cars, but not Olds. My Dad found this thing with low miles on it in 1989, and I think he instantly fell in love. It was used by and being sold through a Caddy/Olds dealer in Houston. Apparently it was used as a loaner car for the dealer, so it was well maintained and in excellent shape when we bought it. That car was bad ass looking- but those were the dark days of GM having V8 engines that only made like 150 hp. It was still fun to do donuts in though.

1998 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 4A - ah man - I still have (wet) dreams about this car. It was cool as $h! w/the t-tops and the Gold Bose stereo. Took it on some road trips up to Denver - got f*cking 30 mpg on a stretch of I-45 and I-20 for the entire tank. The sound of that LS1 engine was just out of control.

2001 GMC Sierra ext cab 4.8L 2wd - simply just a very good pickup. No problems - multiple road trips to Seattle and Florida (yes, I put almost 90k miles on it in 3 years).

2004 GMC Sierra ext cab Z71 - had this for a business - had to sell it. ONly had it 1 year - but it was sweet too.

1998 GMC Jimmy - late father's car. Hasn't been too bad - but it's showing it's age now - the radiator got insanely clogged and had to be replaced - heater didn't work so I had to flush out the heater core - what a nightmare. That old 4.3 is pretty noisy at full throttle. It just feels so old now compared to all the new stuff out there. I'll probably be getting rid of it this year.

1968 Chevy Impala Convertible w/325? (might be 350) hp 396

again, late father's - very cool ride. Needs some work though. I may be putting it up for sale if anyone is interested.

OKay, sorry for the long post. Coffee will do that.

Edited February 16, 2008 by gmcbob

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

How many times do I have to tell you Americans, Holden is nothing like Pontiac, it's more like Chevrolet Mexico, a mix of Chevrolets (from Korea) and Opels (from Germany). The only other models it gets are the Rodeo (a Thai-built Colorado) and the locally built Commodore, Caprice and Ute, and all of those three (and by far the majority of the Caprice built) are also badged as Chevrolets in other markets. Matching Holden with Pontiac is just wishful thinking.

Meh... Works for america, since apparently Holden was the means for Pontiac's survival (Since the division isn't a full line anymore)

You Find a way to make a V8 that will make 30 MPG and we all be glad to keep them around. It is simple as that. To say anything less than a V8 is just very short sighted. If we should complain about anything it should be to still make RWD cars.

All I'm asking for is an effort... GM should not just abandon the V8 because Congress scared them into it. As far as the RWD argument, I'm right there beside you on that.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I've made a few deductions about GM fans (and I'm one of them too) from this website: We're (for the most part) an insanely sentimental bunch. We're car enthusiasts who want to see a 1960s GM in a 2008 market place. I'm young (33), and I've probably succumbed to these feelings having grown up in a household where my Dad worked at GM (from the 60s through the 80s) and living in the "Rust Belt" of Western New York (now I'm in Houston, Toyota probably sells more cars in Houston than GM I would think).

I agree. But a lot of that is because up until now, GM has not given us anything to get excited about. And just when that stuff gets here, GM takes it away for no reason. There is absolutely no reason to all out abandon Zeta and waste money like GM has (On the N* replacement and Zeta)

You know - if you dig GM and want to see them as a viable car company going forward, we're probably going to have to let go of our emotions when it comes to the "brands" (they used to be more like their own companies back in the 'good ole days'). As much as we hate this, the consolidation of the dealer network may be something that we all end up thinking is really cool. I'd absolutely hate to see Pontiac go the way of the dodo bird and Olds, but hell, if it ended up meaning that the current B-P-GMC dealers ended up with a Zeta Park Avenue or something (and my guess is that there would be a version of it sold with a Buick badge that would be close in price to the G8) - wouldn't that almost be better in a way?

Depends... Can you market that Zeta Park Avenue to 20 somethings like me that care about performance and brand image? I don't think so... Sure, some of you might deny the fact that Pontiac appeals to the youth (it does, I only hope GM knows how much and how valuable the division is in this respect) but I bet you won't deny that it appeals to the youth more than Buick.

Would said Park Avenue serve the same purpose as the G8? Absolutley not. It'd be a boulevard cruiser that is more concerned about luxury and added weight than running at the track. And don't sit there and tell me that Buick could make it sporty because there's a car by the name of CTS and a division by the name of Cadillac that won't allow that to happen.

Will I be able to buy that Park Avenue at the same price point as a G8 Heck no! And therein lies the point and subsequently the problem with Pontiac in general. GM CANNOT MAKE THE RETURN ON PONTIAC THAT IT CAN MAKE ON BUICK It's not about how many cars Buick or Pontiac sells. If GM wants volume, they'll send the project through their volume division (Chevrolet) Therefore, it's all about profit, and Buick with it's 'luxury connotation' can sell essentially the same project for more $$$ than Pontiac with it's 'sports connotation' Therefore, a Park Avenue would automatically be more expensive than a comparitive G8, or GM wouldn't do the program in the first place.

Will Buick potray the kind of image for the corporation that Pontiac was supposed to portray? GM would be the *ONLY* large manufacturer with a division solely dedicted to performance. It's a niche that hasn't even been touched yet by an affordable division (a.k.a someone other than BMW or Alfa) The ONLY other company that has the potential to do something like this would be Ford with their Mercury division. But who's to say Ford won't be bankrupt in 3 years?

Pontiac has been badly mismanaged for a long time, but if GM were to take some time to rehab the division, the possibilities would be endless. And if GM was hinging the revival of Pontiac SOLELY on the Zeta cars, then their leadership is just as ignorant as the brand managers of yore. Sure, the Zetas will sell to people like us (People who GM doesn't even need to convince to walk through their showrooms) and maybe some BMW/Dodge humpers who are open minded enough to give us a chance. But in order to REALLY revive Pontiac, it's going to take more. And all of those possibilites are *STILL* on the table. A G6 from Alpha, a new rally-esque G5 from Delta II, a buff Solstice from Kappa II, an Alpha and Delta II wagon line. The platforms are already being built, why not sign Pontiac on to the programs?

I'll tell you why: POLITICS The same bull$h! that will eventually destroy the company division by division.

Most people - like the 99.9% of Americans who don't frequent this website, probably don't care much about (or for) Pontiac these days. It sucks. It hurts. Its painful. It's change - we hate change, it's tough to cope with the change - but unfortunately for the company we support and want to see come back into its own (viable, inspiring, maker of cool rides), we may have to struggle with the change and maybe, just maybe, become fans and spokespeople for brands we never considered within the GM empire.

You get what you give....

The VERY same thing was being said about Buick not even 1 year ago. Now, GM GAVE the division relevant product (for once in the past 10 years) and it was the HOTTEST vehicle on the market for most of the year. It has done imeasurable good for the image of the division and made it relevant again. Riddle me this: How do you think Pontiac would be doing now if GM had given them the entire Saturn portfolio? They'd probably be selling A LOT better than Saturn! But, yet again, GM's politics forced their hand. (Saturn's dealer network makes it exceedingly hard to phase the division out)

This is where the great divide of stupidity is at GM: They think a division can survive and sell on it's name peddling products that are virtual sh*t for years on end... Then the board can't seem to figure out why 'division XXX' is in decline and not attracting buyers as fast as they leave. It's the easiest thing in the world to understand unless you work for GM.

I don't know - if Pontiac were suddenly gone, but there were still a smaller (3500 lbs, IS350 sized) DI 3.6L powered Chevy or Buick, wouldn't that be enough to satisfy our thirst for rear drive performance and still buy GM?

Nope, because it wouldn't be focused enough... Buick would see added luxury and price. Chevrolet would be decontented and built for volume.

Hell, a car with Riv type styling, built in America on a small rwd. platform with that 304 hp Caddy DI V6 would probably be cooler than a G8 in my eyes.

1) The "Caddy V6" is a corporate powertrain and 2) Buick thrives because of China, I highly doubt your coupe would be built here.

Moreover, if you could walk in the showroom and see that said car next to the V8 powered Park Avenue, wouldn't that be pretty bad ass? The more I think about it, if Buick were given Alpha (Buick Regal?) that would be awesome. If it meant killing Pontiac to do something like that, then so be it. We may have to let go of our emotions about Pontiac and start seeing the possibilities with the remaining brands.

So you're willing to phase out the sales of an entire division for a platform that hasn't even been greenlighted yet?

** I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, I'm just using your post to highlight some of my thoughts for those from GM that are hopefully paying attention. **

[Camino LS6]

FOG has nailed it.

[thegriffon]

BPG is a strong network, that with the right product can be among the top 3 divisions in the US, behind only Chevy and Toyota. Three good brands, none with a funny name to count against them, and with a heritage few can match.

Pontiac, Buick, GMC:

Glory days.

We has dem.