'09 XLR to get Update?

[Nick]

Just as a side note...to those who were referring to my post about Porsche's use of 6-cylinders, it is a flat 6, not a V-6.

Other than the obvious that it is a damn good engine, nobody questions it because it is a Porsche. Porsche has always been known for performance. They've been a benchmark for decades. It is a prestigious name, but nothing that has really been associated with true luxury, like, for example, a Mercedes-Benz.

When thinking of luxury, you think of the best. The best quality, best features, best design, everything is top of the line. That should include the engine. It's all excess. If you were spending big bucks on a nice luxury car you'd much rather it have the world's best V8 over the world's best 6 cylinder or wolrd's best 4-banger, just as you would much rather it have the world's best V12 or V16 over the world's best V8.

[Croc]

Because you've had one of these conversations, right?

Yes, smartass, I have been privy to them.

[pow]

The current XLR doesn't have the substance to justify its price tag. Aside from its size, I can't think of a reason to choose it over less expensive roadsters like SLK, Boxster, TT, or Z4. The XLR should have been priced closer to $50K with a standard V6 from day one, IMO.

The interior of a $33K CTS destroys the $100K XLR-V's. Cadillac should be embarrassed to have that as a "halo" car.

[intrigued]

What if the refresh has the generation V v8 with DOHC? We had that report that GM's 5th gen small block was going to come in both traditional OHV form and come with a 6.2 liter DOHC option. How cool would a 6.2 DOHC be?

[Robert Hall]

What if the refresh has the generation V v8 with DOHC? We had that report that GM's 5th gen small block was going to come in both traditional OHV form and come with a 6.2 liter DOHC option. How cool would a 6.2 DOHC be?

Would be cool, but I doubt if GM is going to do it..

[NOS2006]

Yes, smartass, I have been privy to them.

So were you the one with the lowly six-cylinder or the one criticizing the one with the lowly six-cylinder?

[NOS2006]

Would be cool, but I doubt if GM is going to do it..

Actually, they're developing a DOHC 5.3 and 6.2 as we speak.

[dado]

Actually, they're developing a DOHC 5.3 and 6.2 as we speak.

i 've read there won't be DOHC v8 gasoline engine in GM future.Not since cancellation of the ultra V8. Just V8 CIB engine with DI injection like the one in Denalli XT concept and escalade which was shown to journalist.There was rumors about Gen V LS being DOHC but that was before the cancellation of the ultra v8.

Edited February 14, 2008 by dado

[NOS2006]

i 've read there won't be DOHC v8 gasoline engine in GM future.Not since cancellation of the ultra V8. Just V8 CIB engine with DI injection like the one in Denalli XT concept and escalade which was shown to journalist.There was rumors about Gen V LS being DOHC but that was before the cancellation of the ultra v8.

This is old, but it tells about a truck engine (not the Ultras):

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=20193

[dado]

This is old, but it tells about a truck engine (not the Ultras):

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=20193

Yes i remeber that. But all that was before GM decided not to build ultra v8 (which was supposed to come in 2009) and decided not to put any more money in development of new V8 engines and keeping cam in block design for v8 engines. I didn't heard any rumors about this DOHC engines since then.

But there is rumors about Gen V being pushrod engines with DI, VVT ,AFM, and smaller displacement.

[RJB]

Don't get to excited about the facelift...trust me!

Edited February 14, 2008 by RJB

[Robert Hall]

Yes i remeber that. But all that was before GM decided not to build ultra v8 (which was supposed to come in 2009) and decided not to put any more money in development of new V8 engines and keeping cam in block design for v8 engines. I didn't heard any rumors about this DOHC engines since then.

But there is rumors about Gen V being pushrod engines with DI, VVT ,AFM, and smaller displacement.

With the CAFE changes looming, I'm sure any and all future V8 plans are in flux..

[NOS2006]

Don't get to excited about the facelift...trust me!

Never planned on it.

[Croc]

So were you the one with the lowly six-cylinder or the one criticizing the one with the lowly six-cylinder?

No, I just overheard.

Seriously, it's just somewhat astounding that you think the XLR would be helped by your proposal--you've been posting on this site a long time and IMO should know the market better. A "unique engine" that would set Cadillac apart in a good way would be a 10 or 12 cylinder. Look at the Colorado/Canyon. They offered I5s when everyone else had 6s. Not the only reason, but a good component of why those flopped.

Also...why the hell would someone buy a $65k V6 XLR when they could get a V8 Corvette starting in the mid-$40s? "For the luxury" isn't a valid answer.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Croc

[Robert Hall]

No, I just overheard.

Seriously, it's just somewhat astounding that you think the XLR would be helped by your proposal--you've been posting on this site a long time and IMO should know the market better. A "unique engine" that would set Cadillac apart in a good way would be a 10 or 12 cylinder. Look at the Colorado/Canyon. They offered I5s when everyone else had 6s. Not the only reason, but a good component of why those flopped.

Also...why the hell would someone buy a $65k V6 XLR when they could get a V8 Corvette starting in the mid-$40s? "For the luxury" isn't a valid answer.

I don't think Cadillac buyers would necessarily be cross-shopping Corvettes..

[VenSeattle]

Not that I disagree with Croc's point, but a $60-65k V6 XLR would still be a Hard-Top Cadillac convertible with almost all comfort features available compared to a mid-$40's base Corvette coupe.

[NOS2006]

You're partially right, Croc. I haven't really paid attention to Cadillac much at all until the 322 came out because, honestly, I was never excited by them. So, for me to be putting numbers with the XLR wrong, that's basically expected. I way overpriced the 3.6 DI at $75,000 and didn't realize the XLR was already selling so poorly, so I'll definitely agree that I was wrong to set those prices.

In all reality, I would buy a Corvette over an XLR 9 times out of 10 even if they were $10,000 different in base price. The base Corvette gets 100-120 more HP than the base XLR no matter if it's a 3.6 DI or Northstar. I really don't see why you're paying the extra $25k for an XLR because it's really not much more dynamic. The XLR has a terrible interior, it's sheet metal is too aged, and it's got nothing that excites me anymore (other than a V, but even that is far too expensive).

[Croc]

I don't think Cadillac buyers would necessarily be cross-shopping Corvettes..

No, but sales of the V6 Cadillac would be virtually nill unless priced around the $50k mark. Why get the V6 Cadillac @ $60k when the V8 Corvette bases at $47k? Convertible or not, that would not be a big enough incentive for most buyers.

[Croc]

The XLR has a terrible interior, it's sheet metal is too aged, and it's got nothing that excites me anymore (other than a V, but even that is far too expensive).

I wouldn't classify the interior as "terrible" at all. The design just hasn't aged well. There are quite a few high-cost, high-quality pieces in there, but the overall design theme isn't as luxurious as it needs to be.

As for the exterior, it still turns heads. I don't think the exterior needs much of a refresh at all. I'd update the headlights to look more like those on the CTS and I'd do the same to the taillights. I'd redesign the rear decklid to remove the insert and clean up the reverse lights, but overall I'm happy with the exterior design.

[Paolino]

I know this is random, and I know people will argue with me, but that gauge cluster has GOT to go.

[Croc]

No argument from me. That guage cluster looks so incredibly dated. Other than the "BVLGARI" nothing about it is remotely luxurious.

[damien]

I miss the good ol' days when all Cadillacs had V-8's and Cadillac buyers didn't mine a 5,000lb behemouth that needed to followed down the road by a fuel tanker...

[turbo200]

XLR's design is behind the times both inside and out. Cars like the TT, a class below have far outclassed the XLR in terms of exterior and interior design, along with mechanical engineering. In many circles, Cadillac is non-existant, simply because it competes in two classes with credible models, entry level lux and full size lux SUV [luxury crossover definitely has a solid car from them, though the design has polarized].

I think the XLR needs a better focus. It should not seek to be as broadly targeted as it is. It's currently a boulevardier, with a safe design [for today's standards], with an outdated interior design and lower quality materials than everyone else. The features list is down low, the top has stowage difficulties and almost no cargo capacity. It's not practical, it's not exciting to look at anymore [i find the car in my sig more exciting], it doesn't handle extremely well, and it's not the most powerful. Sounds like a lot of nos and no yes's.

and there's no trump card to propel the Cadillac as something special other than a now mostly conservative, sometimes dowdy exterior design. It should be a lot more risk-taking, set the tone for the dramatic Caddy design, perhaps truer to a more fluid look of the Evoq concept car. It should offer a 400 hp V6 turbocharged, as long as the engine block and car stay lightweight. The uplevel model should offer a ~500 hp NA V8. The car inside, outside, and through the drive needs to be about bragging rights.

This is what should be done for an uplevel roadster model at Cadillac. It should be able to be considered among the Porsche's of the class. The Vette already exists, so there's no reason why the XLR shouldn't go on. This is not the basis for a XKR or 6-series competitor, since both of those are seen as more luxury large coupes/GTs like the Continental GT. This should be more of a serious sports car. "Corvette" should not be afraid to be matched by its Cadillac brethren in handling ability. Cadillac is after all supposed to be competing with the highest standards in the world. Different flavors, and the Cadillac will always be more expensive.

But what's being discussed about these cars here is generally wrong. These are penis extender cars, but more than 80% of the audience wouldn't care if the cylinder count were 8 or 6. They want the look, the brand status, the powerful engine and great drive. They don't sit around talking about cylinder count, but more likely care about the cost of the car, and its exclusivity. Exclusivity is in tandem with desirability. They don't care if many people have it, as long as that still enforces how many people want the car. Like the S-class, or the CLS, or the SLR, or any MB around here. They are not exclusive in anyway here. But the sheer fact that these cars have a pretense of "having arrived" and being the car most anyone wants is good enough for most. The other part of it is achieving the right fashion statement. Witness the XKR's, Range Rover's success for cars that can pull brands out of the doldrums based on the right fashion statement for the right segment.

The car needs to feel powerful, the sensation behind the wheel needs to be right, the NVH control needs to be high, but the right aural sounds should be present. The engine whine from a turbo, as long as it sounds good, could make a great complement to the character of this car. But it has to match the character of the overall car. Can't have a turbo whine with a car like the XKR or Lexus SC cause that is going after a complete different buyer base that values other things.

But they need a focus. They need to decide if they want a sports car with no accomodations/practicality and yourthful good looks, or a boulevardier more in line with the 6-series and XKR.

Edited February 15, 2008 by turbo200

[turbo200]

I do hope eventually Cadillac and GM can get it through thier heads that they don't have to compete on price and can compete on the sole virtues of the car. I do hope they can eventually have an interior in both design and materials that truly outpaces the rivals, instead of just barely meeting or being a step below in the case of the new Escalade and CTS. This will eventually lead to them offering the kinds of cars that attract the most buyers of excess and in general buyers of status symbols. the kind of buyers 6-series, CL-class, XKR currently attract.

I'm hoping a Zeta big coupe with an awesome interior and exterior design does eventually make it over to Cadillac, and not in like twenty years when I've vocalized the idea twenty years before. It would be nice if Zeta were revised and a lot more weight saving materials were used.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The current XLR doesn't have the substance to justify its price tag. Aside from its size, I can't think of a reason to choose it over less expensive roadsters like SLK, Boxster, TT, or Z4. The XLR should have been priced closer to $50K with a standard V6 from day one, IMO.

The interior of a $33K CTS destroys the $100K XLR-V's. Cadillac should be embarrassed to have that as a "halo" car.

I agree to an extent...

The XLR does not have the substance to be postioned as a Cadillac halo. IMO, the Escalade serves as more of a halo for the division.

I think the XLR suffered a lot because of the Corvette. Chevrolet had a cow just because Cadillac wanted to share the platform, I'm positive they made sure that the XLR would not up stage the Corvette in any way. I also think the XLR had such limited exposure that a lot of people don't even know it exists. Heck, I'm an enthusiast and sometimes I 'forget' about it even being a part of the Cadillac line up.

IMO, the V-Series XLR should be THE XLR for the base XLR price. I know that's probably impossible, but that's the kind of hardball Cadillac and GM are going to have to play to establish the car in it's intended market. It's a whole new ball game with a whole new level of sophistication. This XLR was a competitive try, but it didn't hit the mark. Generation II is going to have to do a better job or the entire effort will be chalked up as a failure IMO.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't think Cadillac buyers would necessarily be cross-shopping Corvettes..

I disagree... I think buyers of the current XLR do cross shop the Corvette.

Now, if the XLR were what it was intended to be, then I think your statement would be 100% correct.

Edited February 16, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM