'09 XLR to get Update?

[NOS2006]

Cadillac will launch its new 2009 XLR roadster in July, according to a new report. Details of the new model remain unclear, as does the timeline for its debut. While the Chicago Tribune article specifies a date for the car's launch, it's not clear if the newspaper is referring to an unveiling or a sales launch.

If the new XLR is merely a 'facelift' to the existing model, then a debut in the next few months and a sales launch in July seems reasonable. However, if the XLR is a fully redesigned model, then it would likely take at least eight months to reach market, meaning it would be revealed in July and on the market in early 2009.

Another mystery is the new XLR line's engines. Although the XLR is built on the Chevrolet Corvette platform, it has used only Cadillac engines in the past. The base model has a 4.6-liter V8 from the STS and SRX, while the more powerful XLR-V has the supercharged 4.4-liter V8 from the STS-V.

There is some speculation the next XLR-V will get a new motor — possibly the 550 horsepower LSA V8 from the 2009 CTS-V. Of course, this is just speculation at this point in time. What's more, the nature of the redesigned XLR will determine when we see a new XLR-V. If the 2009 model is a simple facelift, both cars should debut around the same time. If it's a complete redesign, the XLR-V could debut as much as a year later.

One thing is sure — at least according to the Tribune — the XLR range won't get its own version of the 620 hp Corvette ZR1.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-2009-ca...ve-in-july.html Edited February 12, 2008 by NOS2006

[Blake Noble]

I know the XLR update is coming soon, but I forget specifically when. I think it might be a little bit later than 2009, however.

[Intrepidation]

Considering there haven't been any spyshots of the XLR undergoing testing, I'm guessing it's going to be a facelift. Hopefully a new interior is on the menu.

[Northstar]

09 is too early, unless they decided to half-ass it and moved the MCE up. The SL is getting somewhat long in the tooth, and it's interior isn't as good as it used to be, it seems. I sat in one at the auto show and didn't think it was that great for $100k.

[NOS2006]

The SL does look better than the XLR to me now though, especially inside.

[Z-06]

09 is too early, unless they decided to half-ass it and moved the MCE up. The SL is getting somewhat long in the tooth, and it's interior isn't as good as it used to be, it seems. I sat in one at the auto show and didn't think it was that great for $100k.

SL just has an update for 2009.

[ZL-1]

A question: should XLR offer a model with the DI V6? What are everybody's thoughts on that?

Edited February 12, 2008 by ZL-1

[NOS2006]

A question: should XLR offer a model with the DI V6? What are everybody's thoughts on that?

DI 3.6, LS3, and LSA? Sounds good to me!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A question: should XLR offer a model with the DI V6? What are everybody's thoughts on that?

Umm... Hell no!

[97regalGS]

a significant freshening of the exterior and an all new interior will suffice.

[ZL-1]

Umm... Hell no!

Next question, then: why not?

[JBsZ06]

I think 3.6 DI, LS3 and the LSA motor for the 2009 model year along with a price drop or free options etc would be a smart move for the XLR and XLR V

JMO

[NOS2006]

I think 3.6 DI, LS3 and the LSA motor for the 2009 model year along with a price drop or free options etc would be a smart move for the XLR and XLR V

JMO

I couldn't agree more. The 3.6L DI has only 20 HP less than the base Northstar engine in the XLR and is probably way cheaper and gets better MPGs.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Next question, then: why not?

Because it is a halo car in a division for people that don't care about fuel mileage.

Leave the V6 for the sedans at the bottom of the division (and by that I mean NOT the XLR and NOT the ULS)

Cheapening the XLR would be a disaster. If you want a 'cheap' Cadillac fun car, use Alpha as a basis.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I couldn't agree more. The 3.6L DI has only 20 HP less than the base Northstar engine in the XLR and is probably way cheaper and gets better MPGs.

And the weak motor is exactly one reason why the XLR has been an also ran on the sales charts. Why replace it with a weaker unit?

In order to be taken seriously, the XLR needs to improve, not be cheapened and vanilla-ized. Remember; the original goal for the new Cadillac was not volume, but prestige and profit. I think GM is losing sight of that daily.

[JBsZ06]

It doesn't matter if the 3.6 DI is left off the list..but dropping in an ls3 and LSA v8 sounds like a cool way to go.........

[NOS2006]

And the weak motor is exactly one reason why the XLR has been an also ran on the sales charts. Why replace it with a weaker unit?

In order to be taken seriously, the XLR needs to improve, not be cheapened and vanilla-ized. Remember; the original goal for the new Cadillac was not volume, but prestige and profit. I think GM is losing sight of that daily.

I'd change pricing if the 3.6 were introduced in it...

Base w/ 310 HP 3.6L DI: $75,000

Mid-level w/ 430 HP LS3: $85,000

XLR-V w/ 550 HP LSA: $100,000

But the XLR needs a facelift or redesign. It's not worth $75,000 let alone $82,000 or six digits. It looks nice on the outside, but is everything down to the bare bones (including interior materials, technology, and refinement) worth the price? No.

[EMan]

Because it is a halo car in a division for people that don't care about fuel mileage.

Leave the V6 for the sedans at the bottom of the division (and by that I mean NOT the XLR and NOT the ULS)

Cheapening the XLR would be a disaster. If you want a 'cheap' Cadillac fun car, use Alpha as a basis.

I agree to some degree. What would you say to a Turbo / Super Charged version of the DI3.6?

Edited February 13, 2008 by EMan

[Northstar]

I'd change pricing if the 3.6 were introduced in it...

Base w/ 310 HP 3.6L DI: $75,000

Mid-level w/ 430 HP LS3: $85,000

XLR-V w/ 550 HP LSA: $100,000

But the XLR needs a facelift or redesign. It's not worth $75,000 let alone $82,000 or six digits. It looks nice on the outside, but is everything down to the bare bones (including interior materials, technology, and refinement) worth the price? No.

$75k for a V6 XLR? No way that's going to fly.

[NOS2006]

$75k for a V6 XLR? No way that's going to fly.

Then why is it perfectly fine to charge $7,000 more for 15 more HP?

[Northstar]

Then why is it perfectly fine to charge $7,000 more for 15 more HP?

The 07 XLR currently has $7500 off, and I'm sure there are plenty left sitting around. I think it's quite clear the XLR isn't accepted with a V8 at $75k, much less a V6. People who buy cars for the image such as the SL don't want a measly V6 in their car, they want at least 8 cylinders. "Common folk" cars have V6, and they don't want that association of, "it's only a V6."

People who can afford a $75k+ car don't give a rat's ass about fuel economy, so long as it's not under 10MPG. A V6 is much, much less prestigious than a V8, and the couple MPGs better fuel economy the V6 would get wouldn't matter to people who can afford it.

How are SL buyers supposed to take the XLR seriously if the base engine is a V6? The SL has 380HP base, the XLR should have at least that much power to start with and be priced $20k less. It should probably be DOHC too, at this price point.

[NOS2006]

How are SL buyers supposed to take the XLR seriously if the base engine is a V6? The SL has 380HP base, the XLR should have at least that much power to start with and be priced $20k less. It should probably be DOHC too, at this price point.

I didn't know this.. With this thing at 380, why the hell is the XLR at 320 HP?! Then again, why the hell is the SL priced to start at $95k? Such a stupid market.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The 07 XLR currently has $7500 off, and I'm sure there are plenty left sitting around. I think it's quite clear the XLR isn't accepted with a V8 at $75k, much less a V6. People who buy cars for the image such as the SL don't want a measly V6 in their car, they want at least 8 cylinders. "Common folk" cars have V6, and they don't want that association of, "it's only a V6."

People who can afford a $75k+ car don't give a rat's ass about fuel economy, so long as it's not under 10MPG. A V6 is much, much less prestigious than a V8, and the couple MPGs better fuel economy the V6 would get wouldn't matter to people who can afford it.

How are SL buyers supposed to take the XLR seriously if the base engine is a V6? The SL has 380HP base, the XLR should have at least that much power to start with and be priced $20k less. It should probably be DOHC too, at this price point.

People here seem to be having a hard time distinguishing the differing motivations to buy a car. (And I hope GM isn't the same way)

For Suzie Homemaker, it doesn't really matter what propels her ride of choice because she buys the car for function, as an appliance. For hardcore enthusiasts people like me and Cadillac buyers, the purchase is as much about identity and image as anything else.

That's why this whole "Lets downsize everything and slap in a 4 cylinder" logic will not work. It's more of a perception and marketing thing than a performance thing.

Sure, it's the cool thing to be "green" now. But the cause hasn't caught on enough to sway the buying habits of people who are virtually unaffected by the consequences. (a.k.a. People who can afford gas or people who will sacrifice other things in their life to fulfill their driving needs)

Edited February 13, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[JBsZ06]

300 hp v6's are acceptable ...

I believe that the Mercedes convertible does come in europe with a v6.

I personally 320hp v8's are outclassed in todays hp crazy marketplace..

390 to 430 hp V8's..are in a range more acceptable today.

475 to 550 hp are an exciting proposition for the XLR and XLR V

[Nick]

The only 6 cylinder that seems to be acceptable in that type of car around here is a Porsche, and that's only because people don't really know any better, or care to know for that matter because it is a "Porsche." You tell some Porsche owner their car has a flat six, and it is very possible they may not know what they hell you are talking about. Porsche has used that engine formula for years and it is quite possibly one of the most advanced 6 cylinder engines created.

[VenSeattle]

I think Cadillac needs a V6 roadster, like the SLK, but not for the XLR. The XLR should be improved, and Cadillac should get a smaller roadster to place underneath the XLR.

however, if it's a matter of XLR with V6/V8 or NOTHING... then by all means, give the XLR a V6. I'd much rather Cadillac continue to offer the XLR than abandon the market.

[eldiablobanshee]

I'd change pricing if the 3.6 were introduced in it...

Base w/ 310 HP 3.6L DI: $75,000

Mid-level w/ 430 HP LS3: $85,000

XLR-V w/ 550 HP LSA: $100,000

But the XLR needs a facelift or redesign. It's not worth $75,000 let alone $82,000 or six digits. It looks nice on the outside, but is everything down to the bare bones (including interior materials, technology, and refinement) worth the price? No.

I would make the mid-level xlr $75,000 and change the engine to the curent xlr-v 400+ bhp north star. If they can get the 3.6 up to 325 bhp it would be fine for $60,000.

i think this would work because with the 3.6 performance will not change but price will go down and the 400+ bhp north star will keep those got to have a DOHC people happy. This also would match the competitions power #s and for those who need to beat those SL55 and M6s you get 550 bhp and 550lb ft o push rod power and a great price.

[Z-06]

A question: should XLR offer a model with the DI V6? What are everybody's thoughts on that?

DI 3.6, LS3, and LSA? Sounds good to me!

It will not be a bad idea to have the DI along with the other V-8 engine options.

Because it is a halo car in a division for people that don't care about fuel mileage.

Leave the V6 for the sedans at the bottom of the division (and by that I mean NOT the XLR and NOT the ULS)

Cheapening the XLR would be a disaster. If you want a 'cheap' Cadillac fun car, use Alpha as a basis.

The 07 XLR currently has $7500 off, and I'm sure there are plenty left sitting around. I think it's quite clear the XLR isn't accepted with a V8 at $75k, much less a V6. People who buy cars for the image such as the SL don't want a measly V6 in their car, they want at least 8 cylinders. "Common folk" cars have V6, and they don't want that association of, "it's only a V6."

People who can afford a $75k+ car don't give a rat's ass about fuel economy, so long as it's not under 10MPG. A V6 is much, much less prestigious than a V8, and the couple MPGs better fuel economy the V6 would get wouldn't matter to people who can afford it.

How are SL buyers supposed to take the XLR seriously if the base engine is a V6? The SL has 380HP base, the XLR should have at least that much power to start with and be priced $20k less. It should probably be DOHC too, at this price point.

Cadillac has intentions to be a world competitor with other luxury brands. SL offers SL350 as its base engine in Europe which in 2009 will have the 3.5DI making 310hp. Other than US the V-6 makes the list as the main engine. Till 2006 SL came with the 302hp 5.0L engine and the N* at that time was more than capable. Like Nick said no one will care for a Porsche not having a V-8 in that price range. If you build a good V-6, people will buy it. Do you think people in that price zone are enthusiasts? And enthusiasts like some of the people at C&G will never be able to buy that car brand new, so why worry? Having $7,500 off does not make an excuse of not having a V-6, that shows the car is not selling in its current guise. Making it more flexible and giving options may help.

[eldiablobanshee]

+1

completely agree.

[NOS2006]

It will not be a bad idea to have the DI along with the other V-8 engine options.

Cadillac has intentions to be a world competitor with other luxury brands. SL offers SL350 as its base engine in Europe which in 2009 will have the 3.5DI making 310hp. Other than US the V-6 makes the list as the main engine. Till 2006 SL came with the 302hp 5.0L engine and the N* at that time was more than capable. Like Nick said no one will care for a Porsche not having a V-8 in that price range. If you build a good V-6, people will buy it. Do you think people in that price zone are enthusiasts? And enthusiasts like some of the people at C&G will never be able to buy that car brand new, so why worry? Having $7,500 off does not make an excuse of not having a V-6, that shows the car is not selling in its current guise. Making it more flexible and giving options may help.

Thanks for the back up on that haha. I couldn't agree more.

[ZL-1]

Because it is a halo car in a division for people that don't care about fuel mileage.

Leave the V6 for the sedans at the bottom of the division (and by that I mean NOT the XLR and NOT the ULS)

Cheapening the XLR would be a disaster. If you want a 'cheap' Cadillac fun car, use Alpha as a basis.

Mercedes-Benz SL280 and SL350. Why can't Cadillac play a tit-for-tat game with the big boys?

[Robert Hall]

Mercedes-Benz SL280 and SL350. Why can't Cadillac play a tit-for-tat game with the big boys?

With the changes in CAFE regs coming, I wouldn't be surprised if M-B didn't start offering 6-cyl S-classes and SLs in the US again...

[ZL-1]

With the changes in CAFE regs coming, I wouldn't be surprised if M-B didn't start offering 6-cyl S-classes and SLs in the US again...

I wouldn't either.

And like I said, play a tit-for-tat game with the big boys. I'd just like to add 'as much as finance resources allow' to my tit-for-tat comment, which wouldn't be tit-for-tat in the game theory concept of cooperation but of retaliating - going after them with all you got.

Edited February 13, 2008 by ZL-1

[Northstar]

Cadillac has intentions to be a world competitor with other luxury brands. SL offers SL350 as its base engine in Europe which in 2009 will have the 3.5DI making 310hp. Other than US the V-6 makes the list as the main engine. Till 2006 SL came with the 302hp 5.0L engine and the N* at that time was more than capable. Like Nick said no one will care for a Porsche not having a V-8 in that price range. If you build a good V-6, people will buy it. Do you think people in that price zone are enthusiasts? And enthusiasts like some of the people at C&G will never be able to buy that car brand new, so why worry? Having $7,500 off does not make an excuse of not having a V-6, that shows the car is not selling in its current guise. Making it more flexible and giving options may help.

Then offer it with the V6 in other countries. The SL doesn't offer it here. Most people in other counties drive tiny 4cyls, so a V6 is a decent step up from the common engine. Taxes based on engine size probably also play a role in that.

Nick's post is not at all a generalization that a V6 is acceptable in the $75k price range. He said that many Porsche owners probably don't realize they have a 6 cyl in their car.

People in the price zone may not be enthusiasts, but that doesn't mean they don't care what engine their car has in it. Otherwise, we'd see V6s in every car in the $75k+ price range. A V8 signifies prestige, a step up from the lowly "common folk," and ample power to people who buy in this price range. Just because they are not enthusiasts does not mean that they don't know what they want in a car, or don't care. They know what they want, and they want something that sets them apart from the people buying $25k CamCords and Malibus, and even the people buying $35k CTSs and C-Classes. They want their car to be a clear step up, and the way they see that in terms of power is a V8 or V12, not a V6 like 30 million other Americans.

Having $7500 off a car in this price range with a V8 does show that putting a V6 in it for the same price is not going to work. Please explain to me how buyer's are going to accept less power and prestige for the same amount of money?

[Intrepidation]

Then offer it with the V6 in other countries. The SL doesn't offer it here. Most people in other counties drive tiny 4cyls, so a V6 is a decent step up from the common engine. Taxes based on engine size probably also play a role in that.

Nick's post is not at all a generalization that a V6 is acceptable in the $75k price range. He said that many Porsche owners probably don't realize they have a 6 cyl in their car.

People in the price zone may not be enthusiasts, but that doesn't mean they don't care what engine their car has in it. Otherwise, we'd see V6s in every car in the $75k+ price range. A V8 signifies prestige, a step up from the lowly "common folk," and ample power to people who buy in this price range. Just because they are not enthusiasts does not mean that they don't know what they want in a car, or don't care. They know what they want, and they want something that sets them apart from the people buying $25k CamCords and Malibus, and even the people buying $35k CTSs and C-Classes. They want their car to be a clear step up, and the way they see that in terms of power is a V8 or V12, not a V6 like 30 million other Americans.

Having $7500 off a car in this price range with a V8 does show that putting a V6 in it for the same price is not going to work. Please explain to me how buyer's are going to accept less power and prestige for the same amount of money?

Where can I get a car for $5700 Nothie?

[Z-06]

I wouldn't either.

And like I said, play a tit-for-tat game with the big boys. I'd just like to add 'as much as finance resources allow' to my tit-for-tat comment, which wouldn't be tit-for-tat in the game theory concept of cooperation but of retaliating - going after them with all you got.

Cadillac has to play the tit-for-tat game as it will be their dominant strategy coming from behind in a market which is being shared by the big boys, but at the same time they have to create their own ground. Tit-for-tat will not always work.

Then offer it with the V6 in other countries. The SL doesn't offer it here. Most people in other counties drive tiny 4cyls, so a V6 is a decent step up from the common engine. Taxes based on engine size probably also play a role in that.

Nick's post is not at all a generalization that a V6 is acceptable in the $75k price range. He said that many Porsche owners probably don't realize they have a 6 cyl in their car.

People in the price zone may not be enthusiasts, but that doesn't mean they don't care what engine their car has in it. Otherwise, we'd see V6s in every car in the $75k+ price range. A V8 signifies prestige, a step up from the lowly "common folk," and ample power to people who buy in this price range. Just because they are not enthusiasts does not mean that they don't know what they want in a car, or don't care. They know what they want, and they want something that sets them apart from the people buying $25k CamCords and Malibus, and even the people buying $35k CTSs and C-Classes. They want their car to be a clear step up, and the way they see that in terms of power is a V8 or V12, not a V6 like 30 million other Americans.

Having $7500 off a car in this price range with a V8 does show that putting a V6 in it for the same price is not going to work. Please explain to me how buyer's are going to accept less power and prestige for the same amount of money?

SL does not offer it here does not mean that it won't. The perception of $3 gas will make MB rethink its strategies, now since it has a powerful V-6 under its belt.

The reason why people do not realize there is not a V-6 in the Porsche is because the the V-6 is damn F$cking good. The DI is good too, and if you give the XLR the dynamics of the Porsche and like ZL-1 said use Tit-fot-tat tactic, you are not losing any prestige. V-8 existed in the 1960s-70s in Impalas and Novas they were not certainly prestigious vehicles. The notion that V-8 = more power is also baseless with GM's own example 3.6L DI = 304hp, N*V-8 - 320hp, agreed that N* has not had a shiny replacement. But my point is with the advancement of technology V-8, V-6 argument has become a shot in the dark. Nissan GTR has a V-6 and charges $70K. The point is more money = more cylinder = more horsepower = more size becoming obsolete with globalization, it may not be a good thing in the eyes of some here, but it is the reality. Especially with current craze of people and manufacturers alike to give cars more European feel upto a certain extent lesser cylinder = still more fun = still good horsepower = still prestigious will come with that craze.

I did not say price the V-6 around $75k. You may even charge $65k, I don't care, but having a V-6 in the XLR will definitely not hurt. And besides, how do you not know that the V-6 will not get $6,500 rebates on the price that NOS quoted? That will still make it cheaper than the N* V-8, won't it? For having 16hp less and more fuel efficient vehicle, it will be still worth it

[NOS2006]

Actually, 16 HP difference will be more than enough to offset the weight difference in the two. Any idea how much the 4.6 weighs compared to the 3.6 DI?

Edited February 13, 2008 by NOS2006

[dado]

Will there be some power upgrade? It has 320 hp and the next gen. is supposed to come (if it comes) in 2012 or something like that. That is long time to wait for some power upgrade.

[NOS2006]

Yeah, I'm assuming that 2012 is the NG since it is for the Corvette too.

[Northstar]

Where can I get a car for $5700 Nothie?

What are you talking about?

Cadillac has to play the tit-for-tat game as it will be their dominant strategy coming from behind in a market which is being shared by the big boys, but at the same time they have to create their own ground. Tit-for-tat will not always work.

SL does not offer it here does not mean that it won't. The perception of $3 gas will make MB rethink its strategies, now since it has a powerful V-6 under its belt.

Do you really think that people paying $100k for a car are going to care if there car gets 2 MPG better? I think not. The E350 gets 17/24 and the E550 gets 15/22. Not much of a difference. The SL would be similar, SL550 gets 14/21 currently.

The reason why people do not realize there is not a V-6 in the Porsche is because the the V-6 is damn F$cking good. The DI is good too, and if you give the XLR the dynamics of the Porsche and like ZL-1 said use Tit-fot-tat tactic, you are not losing any prestige. V-8 existed in the 1960s-70s in Impalas and Novas they were not certainly prestigious vehicles. The notion that V-8 = more power is also baseless with GM's own example 3.6L DI = 304hp, N*V-8 - 320hp, agreed that N* has not had a shiny replacement. But my point is with the advancement of technology V-8, V-6 argument has become a shot in the dark. Nissan GTR has a V-6 and charges $70K. The point is more money = more cylinder = more horsepower = more size becoming obsolete with globalization, it may not be a good thing in the eyes of some here, but it is the reality. Especially with current craze of people and manufacturers alike to give cars more European feel upto a certain extent lesser cylinder = still more fun = still good horsepower = still prestigious will come with that craze.

The reason people don't realize that there's a V6 in Porsche's is because it's a Porsche. A V6 would not Fly in the Corvette. People buy a Porsche because it's a Porsche. The XLR doesn't sell because with a V8, and when people find out that it has a V6 <and these people will care, because the car is not a Porsche> they won't like that very much. Note that "common folk" don't own Porsches, either. You think that if Porsche started using I4s that no one would care? I think not. Nissan GTR is a totally different type of car. A GTR is a race car on the street, so people only care that it goes fast. Plus, the GTR is supposed to have a twin-turbo 6. That's what a GTR is, just like a Corvette is supposed to have a V8.

I did not say price the V-6 around $75k. You may even charge $65k, I don't care, but having a V-6 in the XLR will definitely not hurt. And besides, how do you not know that the V-6 will not get $6,500 rebates on the price that NOS quoted? That will still make it cheaper than the N* V-8, won't it? For having 16hp less and more fuel efficient vehicle, it will be still worth it

I think too many people jumped to the conclusion that I think a V6 XLR is a ridiculous idea. And it is, for $75k (the car's current price with a V8). An XLR for $55k with a V6 would not be such a bad idea, but not for $75k. And at $55k, I'd rather see something to take on the Z4 and SLK.

What does pricing it at $65k and putting a $6500 incentive on it? Nothing, on proves that it's too much for a V6 XLR and it will ruin resale value. You can buy an XLR-V with 6k miles on it right now on eBay for $59k. That's $41k depreciation after a year or so and 6k miles. Not exactly something that makes SL buyers want to switch brands.

I think something you're forgetting is that the SL is a Mercedes-Benz SL-Class and the XLR is a Cadillac XLR. For Cadillac to have an hope of knocking off the SL, it has to deliver an XLR that is so much better than the SL for $20k less that it's not even funny. Putting a V6 in it is not a good start.

-------------------

NOS: The V6 weighs ~23lbs less than the V8, if a V8 and V6 STS weigh the same without the engine (and I'm guessing the V8 has some things like bigger wheels that also weigh more).

[NOS2006]

I don't see how it could only be a difference of 23 lbs... Nope, not gonna take that answer. haha

[Croc]

I don't see how it could only be a difference of 23 lbs... Nope, not gonna take that answer. haha

Dude, Northie's right on just about everything. A V6 XLR with your suggested pricing is a TERRIBLE idea. Luxury buyers, and especially luxury SPORT buyers, don't give a rat's ass about economy or value; they care about having something better than everyone else. Bonus points for "better" styling and power.

Country club conversation:

Richie Rich: New ride?

Frugal Frank: Yea! A brand new Cadillac XLR! I love it!

RR: It looks pretty nice...so, what kinda power you get out of it?

FF: Well, it's a 6, but it moves well and its more economic.

RR: Whoa buddy...a SIX? *Hushed* Are you guys doing alright? I mean the economy is in the can, but I never thought you'd be making sacrifices...

[NOS2006]

Because you've had one of these conversations, right?

[Z-06]

Do you really think that people paying $100k for a car are going to care if there car gets 2 MPG better? I think not. The E350 gets 17/24 and the E550 gets 15/22. Not much of a difference. The SL would be similar, SL550 gets 14/21 currently.

Why do people then buy 2/3rds of the E classes in V-6 guise? According to your theory they should go for V-8, given more prestige, not caring about fuel economy which is not different anyways according to you.

The reason people don't realize that there's a V6 in Porsche's is because it's a Porsche. A V6 would not Fly in the Corvette. People buy a Porsche because it's a Porsche. The XLR doesn't sell because with a V8, and when people find out that it has a V6 <and these people will care, because the car is not a Porsche> they won't like that very much. Note that "common folk" don't own Porsches, either. You think that if Porsche started using I4s that no one would care? I think not. Nissan GTR is a totally different type of car. A GTR is a race car on the street, so people only care that it goes fast. Plus, the GTR is supposed to have a twin-turbo 6. That's what a GTR is, just like a Corvette is supposed to have a V8.

This sounds more like an excuse statement for Cadillac trying to wiggle its way out from not being competitive. Tell me how much history XLR has to justify its halo nature, or having a trend which people will not be willing to give up? None. Which means it is more capable to try something out of the box and be innovative. Oh it is a Porsche does not mean anything, but trying to out do a Porsche with the same powertrain criteria and level of refinement and performance from a company that built land barges will mean something. Isn't that what Nissan did with its GTR against the 911 Turbo? With your argument that people will not buy a Cadillac because it is not a Porsche, why would they buy a 620hp Chevy over another exotic? Don't build it then.

And at $55k, I'd rather see something to take on the Z4 and SLK.

You better make that as the V version then, because based on your notion, it will be said, oh it is a BMW Z4 and MB SLK, Cadillac will have no hope of knocking off those, it has to deliver a car that has to be so much better than them for $20k less that it will not be funny.

What does pricing it at $65k and putting a $6500 incentive on it? Nothing, on proves that it's too much for a V6 XLR and it will ruin resale value. You can buy an XLR-V with 6k miles on it right now on eBay for $59k. That's $41k depreciation after a year or so and 6k miles. Not exactly something that makes SL buyers want to switch brands.

You misinterpreted my statement. You argued that with $7500 rebate a N* V8 will cost almost same as the V-6, then why would anyone want a V-6. In that case you are assuming that V-8 if continued in production will continue to have that rebate and that V-6 won't. I put $6,500 as a number, it can be anything. The fact is if you claim that XLR is bad in resale, nothing is going to help it, not even putting an engine made of gold, till you fix the image up. Smaller engine most of the time brings in volume and putting a V-6 may bring more cash to the platform which will help GM's coffers. As you mentioned the people buying these cars do not care about gas, and other intangibles, will they care for the intangible of depreciation?

I think something you're forgetting is that the SL is a Mercedes-Benz SL-Class and the XLR is a Cadillac XLR. For Cadillac to have an hope of knocking off the SL, it has to deliver an XLR that is so much better than the SL for $20k less that it's not even funny. Putting a V6 in it is not a good start.

Why build the car then, if the initial market research is as negative as you think, GM should not build XLR. If Hyundai had the same mentality they will not have build the RWD, if Toyota had that mentality they would not have formed the Lexus division, if Chevy had that mentality they will not be building the ZR-1. Instead spend that money to increase R&D and Marketing of other vehicles. The same was said about CTS that it will not out do a BMW, or a Lexus, yet the second generation went by and has won raves. Can't that be said about the XLR? XLR is on a good platform it needs tweaks and a makeover to justify its luxurious pretensions.

NOS: The V6 weighs ~23lbs less than the V8, if a V8 and V6 STS weigh the same without the engine (and I'm guessing the V8 has some things like bigger wheels that also weigh more).

The 3.6 DOHC weighs about 350-370lb, does DI add about a 40-60lb penalty? The N* in XLR weighs 432lb.

[gm4life]

Simple the E is a sedan, the XLR is a performance touring drop-top. To command anything over 50K for a V6 in an XLR is crazy. By the way folks I thought I read around here were AREN'T getting a new DOHC Northstar replacement! I think were gonna get Chevy based OHV V8's for the Caddy's. Hell some people have gone so far to say we won't see any V8's in Caddy's cept V-Series with CAFE. (I hope not, as long as you can get a V8 OHV or DOHC I really could care-less and hell no I don't want a V-Series Caddy.) Maybe on an CTS. An E-Class and STS are two very different cars than an SL or XLR.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You guys are genius....

Why don't we just make one motor (The 3.6) and put it in everything...

Way to go team! Has GME infiltrated the board or something?

This sounds more like an excuse statement for Cadillac trying to wiggle its way out from not being competitive. Tell me how much history XLR has to justify its halo nature, or having a trend which people will not be willing to give up? None. Which means it is more capable to try something out of the box and be innovative. Oh it is a Porsche does not mean anything, but trying to out do a Porsche with the same powertrain criteria and level of refinement and performance from a company that built land barges will mean something. Isn't that what Nissan did with its GTR against the 911 Turbo? With your argument that people will not buy a Cadillac because it is not a Porsche, why would they buy a 620hp Chevy over another exotic? Don't build it then.

Because said Corvette did exactly what Northie suggested the XLR do. It WAY over delivered for A LOT less. The Corvette has over 50 years of prestige, but do you actually think the clientele would buy a C6 ZR1 with the same price as it's intended competition?

Smaller engine most of the time brings in volume and putting a V-6 may bring more cash to the platform which will help GM's coffers. As you mentioned the people buying these cars do not care about gas, and other intangibles, will they care for the intangible of depreciation?

Since when; and why, does the XLR have to be about volume?

Edited February 14, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Northstar]

Why do people then buy 2/3rds of the E classes in V-6 guise? According to your theory they should go for V-8, given more prestige, not caring about fuel economy which is not different anyways according to you.

Perhaps because the E-Class costs $50-60k and the SL costs $100k? If you want to compare convertible apples to sedan apples, compare the S-Class to the SL. S-Class offers a V8 standard <as do all the cars I think of that compete with it>.

This sounds more like an excuse statement for Cadillac trying to wiggle its way out from not being competitive. Tell me how much history XLR has to justify its halo nature, or having a trend which people will not be willing to give up? None. Which means it is more capable to try something out of the box and be innovative. Oh it is a Porsche does not mean anything, but trying to out do a Porsche with the same powertrain criteria and level of refinement and performance from a company that built land barges will mean something. Isn't that what Nissan did with its GTR against the 911 Turbo? With your argument that people will not buy a Cadillac because it is not a Porsche, why would they buy a 620hp Chevy over another exotic? Don't build it then.

The XLR has no history, you are right. Riddle me this: How is it going to be any easier to offer something like a V6 (even if it's a turbo or TT) that buyers in this segment are not used to, than it would be to offer something that buyers in the segment are used to, a V8? Sure, some may like the idea because it's unique, but not the vast majority. Cadillac is far better off using the same formula as everyone else than try something unique just for the sake of being different. They'll get more people saying "What were they thinking putting a V6 in that car when all of it's competitors have V8s?"

The GTR has always been a TT V6, at least to my knowledge. That's not making a car better than another car based on what the car did in the past. The XLR is not supposed to be a Porsche anyways, that's not it's target market.

You better make that as the V version then, because based on your notion, it will be said, oh it is a BMW Z4 and MB SLK, Cadillac will have no hope of knocking off those, it has to deliver a car that has to be so much better than them for $20k less that it will not be funny.

I don't think you could have misunderstood my point any worse. A Z4? People have said it looks like crap. SLK? Women's car. A Mercedes-Benz SL? No one can say a bad thing about it. The SL is an iconic car. It's Mercedes Corvette or 911. Z4 and SLK? Not icons at all. It's what you buy if you have millions and want something to cruise to the country club in style. The Z4 and SLK have absolutely no where's near the credibility of the SL. If you haven't understood my point yet, here it is: It is much easier to crack the segment the Z4 and SLK compete in than it is to crack the segment the SL competes in. SL rules all, Z4 and SLK, not so much (you also have TT, Corvette to an extent, Boxster), and not one of those cars rules the segment any more than the next one. There's no gold standard in that segment. In fact, that's where Cadillac should have positioned the XLR in the first place. It's much easier and the buyers are younger, giving them a chance to introduce an SL competitor 7-10 years down the road for those buyers of the Z4 competitor to move into when they get older and more wealthy.

You misinterpreted my statement. You argued that with $7500 rebate a N* V8 will cost almost same as the V-6, then why would anyone want a V-6. In that case you are assuming that V-8 if continued in production will continue to have that rebate and that V-6 won't. I put $6,500 as a number, it can be anything. The fact is if you claim that XLR is bad in resale, nothing is going to help it, not even putting an engine made of gold, till you fix the image up. Smaller engine most of the time brings in volume and putting a V-6 may bring more cash to the platform which will help GM's coffers. As you mentioned the people buying these cars do not care about gas, and other intangibles, will they care for the intangible of depreciation?

According to NOS's lineup the V8 would sell for $85k and the V6 for $75k. Right now, the V8 isn't selling for $75k (it doesn't make any difference whether it has the incentive or not, the price people are asked to pay is $75k, and it's not selling). How is the V6 then expected to sell for the same price as the current V8 (you could assume that future $85k V8 and $75k V6 would have the same incentives <which the SL has never had>), but I still fail to see how the V6 is ever going to sell at that price.

Yes, they'll care about depreciation. That's an indication of how big of a status symbol their car is, to some extent. They also trade cars quite often, so losing $41k in a year is a big deal. It will take how long to spend $41k in gas?

Why build the car then, if the initial market research is as negative as you think, GM should not build XLR. If Hyundai had the same mentality they will not have build the RWD, if Toyota had that mentality they would not have formed the Lexus division, if Chevy had that mentality they will not be building the ZR-1. Instead spend that money to increase R&D and Marketing of other vehicles. The same was said about CTS that it will not out do a BMW, or a Lexus, yet the second generation went by and has won raves. Can't that be said about the XLR? XLR is on a good platform it needs tweaks and a makeover to justify its luxurious pretensions.

I never said to not try to build it. The current XLR was not up to snuff. The difference between what Hyundai and what Lexus did is that they appear to be executed as well as or better than cars that cost twice as much. Lexus didn't demand the premium they do now when they first started. They probably sold cars at next to no profit. They sold cars as good as or at least very close to as good as Mercedes that cost $40k more. That's how Lexus got started. They didn't come in and try to compete at a relatively similar price point with an inferior car. The ZR-1 will be a huge success because it destroys cars that cost 2, 3, 4 times as much in terms of performance. XLR can't do that to cars that cost less than it.

XLR can compete, but it's not going to do so with a V6. How many of the people GM is really chasing with it will take it off their radar because it starts to base at $55k instead of the $80k+ they're normal to? Kind of a funny thing to say, but when you think about it it makes sense.

The 3.6 DOHC weighs about 350-370lb, does DI add about a 40-60lb penalty? The N* in XLR weighs 432lb.

I just compared numbers on Cadillac's website of the V8 STS and V6 STS, and the V6 STS weighed 23lbs less.

[Intrepidation]

I think the XLR needs some kind of defined purposed. It's a halo car sure, but it doesn't handle as well as the Corvette it's based on, the interior isn't that great, It needs to start making a name for itself, which means more than just being an edgy Corvette sans the all-out performance.

[Northstar]

You guys are genius....

Why don't we just make one motor (The 3.6) and put it in everything...

Way to go team! Has GME infiltrated the board or something?

Because said Corvette did exactly what Northie suggested the XLR do. It WAY over delivered for A LOT less. The Corvette has over 50 years of prestige, but do you actually think the clientele would buy a C6 ZR1 with the same price as it's intended competition?

Since when; and why, does the XLR have to be about volume?

Good to see someone else has their head screwed on straight in here. Excellent point about the XLR being a volume product. SL is not trying to be a volume product.

[Northstar]

I think the XLR needs some kind of defined purposed. It's a halo car sure, but it doesn't handle as well as the Corvette it's based on, the interior isn't that great, It needs to start making a name for itself, which means more than just being an edgy Corvette sans the all-out performance.

It was created to compete with the SL, SC, and XK, and perhaps to a slight extent to the 911, but I wouldn't say they're really direct competitors. It just didn't deliver what it needed to, and was overpriced to start. Cadillac should have made it as good as the SL and sold it for $60k, even if that meant it was selling it at a loss.