GM Posts $39 BILLION loss for Last Year

[The O.C.]

Thirdly, since GM's problems are only in North America, I fail to see how any of the Europeans will help out. Whatever the solution is going to be on this side of the pond, it will have to be an 'Americanized' version of what is happening Over There.

Hahahahahaha.....that is EXACTLY where GM has gone wrong, product-wise, over the last 30 years! With the exception of trucks and a few niche products (muscle cars, etc.) GM has largely ignored the fact that a vast majority of the buying populace has been attracted to distincly un-American type products!

Look at companies such as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi. The products these companies are selling over here are damn near identical to what is being sold in Europe and other markets (minus the exclusion of diesels, etc.)

An "Americanized" version of what is happening Over There will never start turning the tide of more-and-more consumers flocking away from the Big 3.

[Robert Hall]

Hahahahahaha.....that is EXACTLY where GM has gone wrong, product-wise, over the last 30 years! With the exception of trucks and a few niche products (muscle cars, etc.) GM has largely ignored the fact that a vast majority of the buying populace has been attracted to distincly un-American type products!

Look at companies such as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi. The products these companies are selling over here are damn near identical to what is being sold in Europe and other markets (minus the exclusion of diesels, etc.)

An "Americanized" version of what is happening Over There will never start turning the tide of more-and-more consumers flocking away from the Big 3.

True...I think GM NA (and Ford and Chrysler to some degree) have been guilty for a LONG time of tunnel vision, not seeing anything outside of the depressing, gray Detroit area with it's straight, flat potholed freeways...

[The O.C.]

True...I think GM NA (and Ford and Chrysler to some degree) have been guilty for a LONG time of tunnel vision, not seeing anything outside of the depressing, gray Detroit area with it's straight, flat potholed freeways...

That's FOREVER been their problem.....not only have I seen it first-hand, I was as guilty of it as anyone.

I've said before.....when I was in the middle of my 11-year career at Buick, I was the type of guy that would argue how a Buick Regal GS was a better car for a young enthusiast than a BMW. (Now that's just CRAZY.) That's how blind I was to what was happening in the marketplace. Scarily, there are still way too many blind-followers still running around (and running) the General still today.

[Robert Hall]

That's FOREVER been their problem.....not only have I seen it first-hand, I was as guilty of it as anyone.

I've said before.....when I was in the middle of my 11-year career at Buick, I was the type of guy that would argue how a Buick Regal GS was a better car for a young enthusiast than a BMW. (Now that's just CRAZY.) That's how blind I was to what was happening in the marketplace. Scarily, there are still way too many blind-followers still running around (and running) the General still today.

Sad...

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

That's FOREVER been their problem.....not only have I seen it first-hand, I was as guilty of it as anyone.

I've said before.....when I was in the middle of my 11-year career at Buick, I was the type of guy that would argue how a Buick Regal GS was a better car for a young enthusiast than a BMW. (Now that's just CRAZY.) That's how blind I was to what was happening in the marketplace. Scarily, there are still way too many blind-followers still running around (and running) the General still today.

Actually, the Regal GS would have been a better vehicle for the potholed, rutted roadways around Michigan. Driving a BMMer will bruise your kidneys on these wagon trails!

[enzl]

Actually, the Regal GS would have been a better vehicle for the potholed, rutted roadways around Michigan. Driving a BMMer will bruise your kidneys on these wagon trails!

All the more reason those in charge need to look outside of Detroit for their inspiration.

They should be getting into the 'why' their new product is routinely ignored, rather than screaming bias or complaining that the populace at large isn't giving them the time of day.

[CARBIZ]

That's FOREVER been their problem.....not only have I seen it first-hand, I was as guilty of it as anyone.

I've said before.....when I was in the middle of my 11-year career at Buick, I was the type of guy that would argue how a Buick Regal GS was a better car for a young enthusiast than a BMW. (Now that's just CRAZY.) That's how blind I was to what was happening in the marketplace. Scarily, there are still way too many blind-followers still running around (and running) the General still today.

But you are re-writing history. As a 26 year old man, who read all the car magazines, who haunted all the dealerships back then, I nearly bought a Regal back in '87, but it was a little out of my budget range at the time, so I got a Shadow ES instead (now, that was a mistake!). I never considered a BMW. Wouldn't then and wouldn't now. Never saw the point of a BMW then, nor now.

The trouble with 'enthusiasts' is they start convincing other people that they 'need' this much car when, in fact, 95% of the people out there don't.

Tyranny of the enthusiasts, I say. Now look at the mess we are in. We have 300 hp sedans that get 25 mpg, instead of 160 hp sedans that 45 mpg. In trying to measure up to what 'enthusiasts' demand, the manufacturers have gotten sidetracked for the past 20 years of 'cheap' gasoline. The chickens are coming home to roost, my friend.

[Robert Hall]

But you are re-writing history. As a 26 year old man, who read all the car magazines, who haunted all the dealerships back then, I nearly bought a Regal back in '87, but it was a little out of my budget range at the time, so I got a Shadow ES instead (now, that was a mistake!). I never considered a BMW. Wouldn't then and wouldn't now. Never saw the point of a BMW then, nor now.

The trouble with 'enthusiasts' is they start convincing other people that they 'need' this much car when, in fact, 95% of the people out there don't.

Tyranny of the enthusiasts, I say. Now look at the mess we are in. We have 300 hp sedans that get 25 mpg, instead of 160 hp sedans that 45 mpg. In trying to measure up to what 'enthusiasts' demand, the manufacturers have gotten sidetracked for the past 20 years of 'cheap' gasoline. The chickens are coming home to roost, my friend.

Hmm...when I was 28 in '98, as a car enthusiast who read all the magazines (and with an '87 Mustang GT), I bought a BMW M3...never considered a Buick.

Nothing wrong with being an enthusiast...who wants to be one the bland sheeple with their Camrys?

Edited February 14, 2008 by moltar

[Toyota.vs.GM]

So how does everybody like the idea of Rick Wagoner still as the Chairmen and CEO of GM come 2030 .

Edited February 14, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[Robert Hall]

So how does everybody like the idea of Rick Wagoner still as the Chairmen and CEO of GM come 2030 .

Having him still in that role in 2010 doesn't sound very good, IMHO....he's a lifer..they need change.

[CARBIZ]

If one looks at the history of the Big Three, they have often surrounded themselves with 'lifers,' which served them well in the past. Now, well, I will admit that I am uncertain. Fresh blood can be good, but not necessarily. After all, Wagoner had the good sense (even if it was forced on him, who knows?) to hire Lutz back. Too much of Corporate North America has been raped in the past 20 years by the bean counters and lawyers. Running any corporation is a balancing act. I cannot imagine the complexities of one as large as General Motors.

Wagoner may be a 'lifer,' but it isn't like it is a dynasty. He has been at different posts. Even the Ford family has eaten crow recently and admitted they need to stir things up. I have also seen first hand what happens when a company either diversifies too much out of what it knows, or hires talent that know nothing about that particular business. I strongly suspect too many MBAs are being born that think everything can fit into a chart or graph: customers, engineers, designers, widgets - EVERYTHING. At some point, a decision has to be made and a risk has to be taken. That takes guts and instinct. They cannot teach that at university or college.

[daves87rs]

That's FOREVER been their problem.....not only have I seen it first-hand, I was as guilty of it as anyone.

I've said before.....when I was in the middle of my 11-year career at Buick, I was the type of guy that would argue how a Buick Regal GS was a better car for a young enthusiast than a BMW. (Now that's just CRAZY.) That's how blind I was to what was happening in the marketplace. Scarily, there are still way too many blind-followers still running around (and running) the General still today.

So very true....

[enzl]

If one looks at the history of the Big Three, they have often surrounded themselves with 'lifers,' which served them well in the past. Now, well, I will admit that I am uncertain. Fresh blood can be good, but not necessarily. After all, Wagoner had the good sense (even if it was forced on him, who knows?) to hire Lutz back. Too much of Corporate North America has been raped in the past 20 years by the bean counters and lawyers. Running any corporation is a balancing act. I cannot imagine the complexities of one as large as General Motors.

Wagoner may be a 'lifer,' but it isn't like it is a dynasty. He has been at different posts. Even the Ford family has eaten crow recently and admitted they need to stir things up. I have also seen first hand what happens when a company either diversifies too much out of what it knows, or hires talent that know nothing about that particular business. I strongly suspect too many MBAs are being born that think everything can fit into a chart or graph: customers, engineers, designers, widgets - EVERYTHING. At some point, a decision has to be made and a risk has to be taken. That takes guts and instinct. They cannot teach that at university or college.

It's not about the past...there's alot of futures depending upon the decision-making that's being made right now at the Tubes.

Ask yourself: Is Wagoner a 'guts & instinct' kind of guy?

GM needs less lawyers, accountants & MBAs...but they could always use more car guys. If product is everything, shouldn't the top cat be product expert?

[aldw]

I'd like to see engineers in charge for once, instead of the beancounters/MBA types that are too damn common..

[CARBIZ]

It's not about the past...there's alot of futures depending upon the decision-making that's being made right now at the Tubes.

Ask yourself: Is Wagoner a 'guts & instinct' kind of guy?

GM needs less lawyers, accountants & MBAs...but they could always use more car guys. If product is everything, shouldn't the top cat be product expert?

I agree with you, but WallStreet would never allow it. How many MBAs have you seen running around with their charts and graphs, thinking they know it all? That is what WallStreet likes: people with charts and graphs. In my cynical opinion, it is more about looking like you are doing something, rather than actually doing something.

Guys like Lutz (and I am making an assumption here) probably HATE charts and graphs, which is why they will never run the company. More's the pity, I say.

I don't know Wagoner personally, but he did have the fortitude to hire Lutz. That has to say something, no? The real talent to running a large company is knowing how to get at the correct information and to not be above surrounding yourself with talent. I would have thought '08 would have been the year of GM's turn-around (and there still are some encouraging signs, I might add), but with the impending mortgage implosion, I am not so sure now.

I would say, let '08 unfold and see how bad things are after the 1st quarter of '09. If things aren't noticeably better, then roll some heads at the top.

[Robert Hall]

I'd like to see engineers in charge for once, instead of the beancounters/MBA types that are too damn common..

The problem is engineers generally have no interest in moving into the management side of things... Very different mindsets and motivations between the technical and managerial worlds.

[The O.C.]

The problem is engineers generally have no interest in moving into the management side of things... Very different mindsets and motivations between the technical and managerial worlds.

Also....alot of engineers don't necessarily have a solid foundation in the understanding of the market outside of pure engineering ideals.....

What you need is a product guy that's not an engineer by trade.....but a business exec that's not a bean-counter.

I've had too many run-ins with product team engineers that are too focused on stats, figures, and details without looking at the "big picture." When I was at Suzuki for a short time, and the Aerio SX was just introduced.....(any of you guys remember that car?)......the car, even in "sport" trim, was saddled with way-undersized 15-inch wheels and tires. We told the engineers here in America that we needed a plus-plus size wheel/tire option for the car.....say 17- or 18-inchs....to make the car look sportier, and offset the high body-style design of the vehicle....and to fill out the huge wheel wells.

The engineers just kept shooting us down saying the 15-inch wheels and tires "met all the ride-and-handling specs that were laid down by Japan." Also, they argued we couldn't add the bigger wheels and tires due to "engineering specs that state we have to have a certain clearance in the wheel wells."

What they ignored was what the mainstream consumer was interested in. They don't care about "ride-and-handling" or "wheel well clearance" specs. They care about a bling look on a small little sport wagon.

So you know what ended up happening? Here in SoCal, at least, the Suzuki dealers themselves ended up taking Aerio SX wagons and putting their own aftermarket 18-inch wheel and tire packages on the car.

Know what else happened? They sold like (relative) hotcakes........

[CARBIZ]

You make good points. A lot of the trouble with the business world is that the latest social-engineers think we should all be pigeon-holed, but the business world has become too complex. It is also getting too hard for one person, or even a small group of people to really understand what is going on at the macro and micro levels.

I mean, how hard was it to design, build and sell the Model T? Now compare that to any modern vehicle, even something as simple as the Aveo or Fit.

It isn't just the auto industry. Look at retail, the service sector. Good bosses are hard to find because a person can have charisma and charm, but not understand the complexities of the business, or be an asshole but be a genius with the product.

I see it with sales people in all types of businesses. It used to be that all you had to do to sell something was know and understand people. Now, most employers want reports and projections, goals and business plans. It is rare to find an alpha-type personality that is good at both. They are almost mutually exclusive.

[enzl]

You make good points. A lot of the trouble with the business world is that the latest social-engineers think we should all be pigeon-holed, but the business world has become too complex. It is also getting too hard for one person, or even a small group of people to really understand what is going on at the macro and micro levels.

I mean, how hard was it to design, build and sell the Model T? Now compare that to any modern vehicle, even something as simple as the Aveo or Fit.

It isn't just the auto industry. Look at retail, the service sector. Good bosses are hard to find because a person can have charisma and charm, but not understand the complexities of the business, or be an asshole but be a genius with the product.

I see it with sales people in all types of businesses. It used to be that all you had to do to sell something was know and understand people. Now, most employers want reports and projections, goals and business plans. It is rare to find an alpha-type personality that is good at both. They are almost mutually exclusive.

All 100% true.

Why isn't someone looking for these people and recruiting them? Not just as CEO, but as management?

You would think that this would be a priority--if the Union has stared into the abyss and determined there's no more time to screw around, wouldn't you think a couple of independent Board of Directors might suggest such an idea?

Mind-boggling.

[regfootball]

as far as the audi guys talking smack about cadillac, that's all fine and dandy, but they didn't have an A4 that wasn't anything besides a fwd warmed over passat until just now. maybe those audi punks need to be reminded how low on the totem pole they are.

[enzl]

as far as the audi guys talking smack about cadillac, that's all fine and dandy, but they didn't have an A4 that wasn't anything besides a fwd warmed over passat until just now. maybe those audi punks need to be reminded how low on the totem pole they are.

Gentle reminder:

Those 'punks' are about to sell 3x what Caddy sells worldwide this year...the quality of their line-up isn't impressive, which makes the accomplishment even more amazing in my book. Perhaps it's a lesson in marketing that GM should take note of?

[hyperv6]

Like Rick or not GM has the best set up of most large companies.

We have Rick who was given a company with poor managment structure, massive debt, and a failing market. He had to be crazy to take that on at a young age. Most past leaders of GM came in tooke the money for 5 years and ran off.

Rick came in and started to work on fixing the money problems. He was bright enough to say he was not a product guy and went to get the best one available Bob Lutz.

I read all the complaining about GM but I have seen few people provide names of people who can do much more than what is already being done with out making any mistakes.

If you want to see what is going on read about the last 5 years at Goodyear tire. THey have had the same problems GM has had on a smaller scale. Debt lack of product and no profits.

Kegan has come in and has done much of what GM is doing. GM even took some of his ideas for the UAW deal. Goodyear now has much better prodicts because he let the product people do their jobs. They now are showing profits because of the new product and reduced liabilities.

It too them some time but they are in much better shape and improving daily. GM is in the same boat but their boat is so much bigger and will take much longer.

I am sure when chang is needed GM already has in mind a short list of those who will continue to improve the company. The key is to keep a good mix of Finace and product men at the top together. GM went much too long with out any good product people with any say. Rhwy don't have to lead just be high enough to make a differance.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

You people are ignoring the most significant challenge that face(d) Rick: legacy costs. Look at what happened to the airlines. 9/11 certainly didn't help them, but it was the upstarts showing up that had newer (cheaper) planes and no legacy costs, plus cheaper pilots that really started to undercut the American airlines.

Does that sound familiar? Toyota and Co. had a clean slate when they embarked upon their mission of conquest in the '80s. Not so Detroit.

We can all sit back and say that it is not our fault that GM is saddled with more than a 100,000 retirees, but it is a reality that the Rickster has had to face.

Try product planning for the future while taking care of grandma and grandpa every day. See how much $, creativity and energy YOU have left.

[enzl]

RW has been there his whole professional career. To say he doesn't share in some of the blame is absurd. He either sat by while bad decisions were made or assisted in making them.

GM squandered its competitive position. They left an opening with their cavalier attitude towards their product and customer---just because other companies such as Toyota or Honda took advantage of GM's hubris (with assistance from an industry-friendly Japan gov't) doesn't make GM's slow descent into hell any less a problem of their own making.

The last two posters act as if GM hasn't burned customers in the last 30 years. GM can be saved---I've seen little evidence that RW is the man to do it.

[CARBIZ]

I think it is safe to say that GM burned its customers in the horrible decade of 1985-95. What we are seeing now is that generation of first time consumers now moving into the corporate world enacting their revenge. GM's house began to turn around a long time ago, but an entire generation of car buyers who were burned in the '80s have to either forgive or DIE before GM can return to any semblance of its former glory. When it comes to car branding, the public can be fickle, but it takes time. We see the 40-somethings now talking their 60-something parents out of buying a domestic and into buying a Honda/Toyota because of their own built-in preconceptions and prejudices.

I don't have the dates in front of me, but wasn't Wagoner in South America for a chunk of his career? To conjure up another example, Churchill was not responsible for the mess that England found itself in back in '39 even though he was in Parliament for a very long time, but he was the one brought in to clean it up. And look how he was rewarded after the war? Summarily booted out by a fickle voting public.

Too often in politics and Big Business, the head of state becomes the target of unfriendly wrath when, in reality, that person is either only a figure head or merely one of many in charge. I am not really defending Wagoner. I certainly don't envy his job. As I said earlier, give him until mid-next year and if GM isn't out of the woods, then a Board shake up might be a good idea. :twocents:

[The O.C.]

as far as the audi guys talking smack about cadillac, that's all fine and dandy, but they didn't have an A4 that wasn't anything besides a fwd warmed over passat until just now. maybe those audi punks need to be reminded how low on the totem pole they are.

Part of it is ego derived from the fact that Audi has, in recent years, dramatically improved its products. Another part of it stems from the sheer arrogance of the Germans. I've been with my friend to quite a few Audi functions and whenever the Germans are there, it's overwhelming how arrogant they are. They even think they are gonna take down BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the not-too-distant future.

That German arrogance is not dissimilar from the head-in-the-sand outlook that many GM execs had for way too long......but in many ways, some of that arrogance is, sadly, deserved. Audi and the other German companies have been building outstanding products that have attracted legions of dedicated fans over the last 10 years or so...

[The O.C.]

RW has been there his whole professional career. To say he doesn't share in some of the blame is absurd. He either sat by while bad decisions were made or assisted in making them.

GM squandered its competitive position. They left an opening with their cavalier attitude towards their product and customer---just because other companies such as Toyota or Honda took advantage of GM's hubris (with assistance from an industry-friendly Japan gov't) doesn't make GM's slow descent into hell any less a problem of their own making.

The last two posters act as if GM hasn't burned customers in the last 30 years. GM can be saved---I've seen little evidence that RW is the man to do it.

The thing with Wagoner is.....how can ANYONE at the top of a company like GM, who has spent his entire career there, ever fully understand the realities of the automotive industry? They haven't lived anything else!

Look at Mullaly.....Ford is his first car gig. They guy owned and drove a Lexus LS430 before going to Ford. That gives him (one) wonderful insight into what the "others" are accomplishing in terms of product and design. Plus, Mullaly has lived in places like import-dominated Seattle...etc, etc....

How many BMWs has Rick owned? How many Hondas has he driven (extensively?) How many of anything foreign has he ever spent time in (outside of GM comparison drives?) How much time has he spent living in California, or Georgia, or Phoenix, or south Florida....other than visiting for a few days for business trips? Has he experienced the import domination in these markets?

I was a GM "lifer" too for 11 years and I too never "got it" as to why BMWs, for example, were so sought after. Well, in the 9 years since my departure from GM, I've owned three....and, BMWs may not be for everyone, but I can tell you....I now "get it." And I never would have if I hadn't been exposed to a life outside of GM and Michigan.

[enzl]

The thing with Wagoner is.....how can ANYONE at the top of a company like GM, who has spent his entire career there, ever fully understand the realities of the automotive industry? They haven't lived anything else!

Look at Mullaly.....Ford is his first car gig. They guy owned and drove a Lexus LS430 before going to Ford. That gives him (one) wonderful insight into what the "others" are accomplishing in terms of product and design. Plus, Mullaly has lived in places like import-dominated Seattle...etc, etc....

How many BMWs has Rick owned? How many Hondas has he driven (extensively?) How many of anything foreign has he ever spent time in (outside of GM comparison drives?) How much time has he spent living in California, or Georgia, or Phoenix, or south Florida....other than visiting for a few days for business trips? Has he experienced the import domination in these markets?

I was a GM "lifer" too for 11 years and I too never "got it" as to why BMWs, for example, were so sought after. Well, in the 9 years since my departure from GM, I've owned three....and, BMWs may not be for everyone, but I can tell you....I now "get it." And I never would have if I hadn't been exposed to a life outside of GM and Michigan.

you've hit on my big beef with the current administration:

What does RW know about anything other than GM? Yes, the Lutz hire was a masterstroke--but it was also a necessity. The products just weren't good enough to retain or expand marketshare, so something needed to be done, ASAP.

I have the good fortune of living with 20+ cars/year a few weeks at a time. Most are used inventory that we're waiting on titles for--but many are low mileage & representative of the average consumers use of said vehicles. The 'desireability' gap of imports & domestics is closing--but there's still plenty of examples of mediocrity out there...

I just don't think RW knows enough...in fact, I'd say he doesn't know how much he doesn't know. The insular view of the rest of the industry from Detroit is patently obvious. I hope that GM hasn't waited too long to swallow its medicine---this year will be ough going for even the strongest industry players.

[The O.C.]

you've hit on my big beef with the current administration:

What does RW know about anything other than GM? Yes, the Lutz hire was a masterstroke--but it was also a necessity. The products just weren't good enough to retain or expand marketshare, so something needed to be done, ASAP.

I have the good fortune of living with 20+ cars/year a few weeks at a time. Most are used inventory that we're waiting on titles for--but many are low mileage & representative of the average consumers use of said vehicles. The 'desireability' gap of imports & domestics is closing--but there's still plenty of examples of mediocrity out there...

I just don't think RW knows enough...in fact, I'd say he doesn't know how much he doesn't know. The insular view of the rest of the industry from Detroit is patently obvious. I hope that GM hasn't waited too long to swallow its medicine---this year will be ough going for even the strongest industry players.

This will never happen.....but I've always said that the management at top companies such as GM should be given competitive cars as company cars.....even permanently. The Rick should be given an S-Class, 745Li, Audi A8, Lexus LS, etc.....and he should be expected to drive it to and from work....and use in on the weekends. Perhaps lower-level managers should be given Accords, BMW 3-Series, and other sorts instead of Impalas, Malibus, or CTSs.

Rotate these guys through different cars every 3 months or so....or 6 months or so.

Nothing gives you a better understanding of your competition than LIVING with it.

[enzl]

This will never happen.....but I've always said that the management at top companies such as GM should be given competitive cars as company cars.....even permanently. The Rick should be given an S-Class, 745Li, Audi A8, Lexus LS, etc.....and he should be expected to drive it to and from work....and use in on the weekends. Perhaps lower-level managers should be given Accords, BMW 3-Series, and other sorts instead of Impalas, Malibus, or CTSs.

Rotate these guys through different cars every 3 months or so....or 6 months or so.

Nothing gives you a better understanding of your competition than LIVING with it.

Actually--while you have a great idea--I'd go one step further...make them maintain and bring them to dealers for repairs and service--so they can see first hand what overdealering and state franchise laws have created---there's nothing worse than the average service facility at 2nd tier imports and most domestic dealers. I'd rather have root canal.

[CARBIZ]

I remember reading somewhere (maybe in my Murphy's Law Bible) that there is a law of business that states: "Every employee will eventually be promoted to his/her own level of incompetence."

I have seen that happen in many other companies, at least. Someone is doing a great job in their department? Promote them! That seems to be very big in large corporations these days, but maybe the guy/gal should be left where he/she is. Why is a promotion the end-all and be-all?

Still, I doubt Rick was driving Cadillacs when he was in Brazil.

[The O.C.]

Still, I doubt Rick was driving Cadillacs when he was in Brazil.

I doubt he was driving at all.......lol.

About the company-car thing......when I was working at Buick, and the guys at Oldsmobile were still developing the Intrigue, Olds DID put their people in competitive cars as company cars....I'm not sure how long they did it for, but they put people in Camrys, Accords, etc. Too bad that program didn't continue.

[daves87rs]

I doubt he was driving at all.......lol.

About the company-car thing......when I was working at Buick, and the guys at Oldsmobile were still developing the Intrigue, Olds DID put their people in competitive cars as company cars....I'm not sure how long they did it for, but they put people in Camrys, Accords, etc. Too bad that program didn't continue.

would be a good idea...