09 ACURA RL

[The O.C.]

Granted, it's still a Legend... outside of North America, that is. Japan's Honda Legend = our Acura RL. Speaking of which, I wonder how the updated Legend will look in Japan.

It seems that Acura's focus shifted away from its flagship sedan to its other products. Shame that only two of those products, the TL and TSX, are worth looking at.

My mother leased a '90 Legend back in the day... one of the best rides I remember from being young. It is a shame to see the way the car has faded into irrelevancy...

Many cars have faded away....."Maxima" is another one that's been a lost cause....!

[Robert Hall]

Higher top speed. I think the GNX is still fastest to accelerate.

Ahh... but I couldn't imagine anyone taking a LaCrosse more than 80 mph, though... what's the point.

[siegen]

This looks very close to the old one

It has actually changed a lot more than you give it credit for (for better or for worse). It is a "refresh" not a new model. Significant exterior changes, a new engine (with vtec on exhaust for the first time on the SOHC V6 engines -still not sure how that works), much revised suspension and AWD system, and several new luxury features (10-way power passenger seat, heater/cooled, etc etc I don't remember most of the changes off the top of my head).

[Robert Hall]

It has actually changed a lot more than you give it credit for (for better or for worse). It is a "refresh" not a new model. Significant exterior changes, a new engine (with vtec on exhaust for the first time on the SOHC V6 engines -still not sure how that works), much revised suspension and AWD system, and several new luxury features (10-way power passenger seat, heater/cooled, etc etc I don't remember most of the changes off the top of my head).

Minor cosmetic changes to the exterior...the decklid and maybe front fenders are the only metal changes I can see..the rest of the exterior changes are just plastic..

[Lamar]

Many cars have faded away....."Maxima" is another one that's been a lost cause....!

It's not so much a "lost cause" as it is overlapped by other models.

I'd like to see the Maxima reestablished as the flagship Nissan sedan, because the new Altima went the Malibu route (or vice-versa) and caused competition within the brand.

[Robert Hall]

It's not so much a "lost cause" as it is overlapped by other models.

I'd like to see the Maxima reestablished as the flagship Nissan sedan, because the new Altima went the Malibu route (or vice-versa) and caused competition within the brand.

Yeah..the Altima used to a small midsize or compact, then grew and overlapped the Maxima.. and the Maxima used to be primarily a FWD sports sedan but the current generation seems to be moving more towards a large pseudo-luxury FWD model like the Avalon..

[Lamar]

Yeah..the Altima used to a small midsize or compact, then grew and overlapped the Maxima.. and the Maxima used to be primarily a FWD sports sedan but the current generation seems to be moving more towards a large pseudo-luxury FWD model like the Avalon..

Which I don't mind, actually, as long as it's involving to drive, unlike the Avalon.

[The O.C.]

It's not so much a "lost cause" as it is overlapped by other models.

I'd like to see the Maxima reestablished as the flagship Nissan sedan, because the new Altima went the Malibu route (or vice-versa) and caused competition within the brand.

I've said it before......the G35 has kindof taken over the stance of Nissan's "sports sedan." (Even if it's badged an Infiniti.) If you think about it, the G35 is kindof a spiritual successor to the old Maxima 4DSC.....even if it's not FWD.

It would be kinda cool to see a decontented and restyled RWD G35 introduced as a new Nissan Maxima!

[Lamar]

I've said it before......the G35 has kindof taken over the stance of Nissan's "sports sedan." (Even if it's badged an Infiniti.) If you think about it, the G35 is kindof a spiritual successor to the old Maxima 4DSC.....even if it's not FWD.

It would be kinda cool to see a decontented and restyled RWD G35 introduced as a new Nissan Maxima!

I was about to that idea until I looked up some specs... the G35 and Maxima are actually similar in wheelbase (G35 is actually a bit longer).

Maybe not decontented and restyled, but at least using that same platform. It's flexible enough... already underpins the Z and the Infiniti M as evidence of that.

But back on topic: My wife really likes the current TL. For her sake, I hope Acura doesn't screw up on the '09. I want her to have what she wants when it's time for her to upgrade her car.

[MyerShift]

Honda's Acura division seemed to have its best style car-wise With the current TL and TSX. It surprised me when the Honda Legend (Acura RL) wasn't sharper and more attractive. With the new MDX, updated RL, and no longer existent RSX, the appeal and semi-Italinate sheet metal that the TSX and TL had seem to be going by the wayside for me is greatly diminished.

In my humble opinion, they might as well shut Acura down, or just integrate it back into Honda as more "premium Hondas" such as some Infiniti models with Nissan in Japan, and Lexus with Toyota.

[siegen]

Honda's Acura division seemed to have its best style car-wise With the current TL and TSX. It surprised me when the Honda Legend (Acura RL) wasn't sharper and more attractive. With the new MDX, updated RL, and no longer existent RSX, the appeal and semi-Italinate sheet metal that the TSX and TL had seem to be going by the wayside for me is greatly diminished.

In my humble opinion, they might as well shut Acura down, or just integrate it back into Honda as more "premium Hondas" such as some Infiniti models with Nissan in Japan, and Lexus with Toyota.

Acura's models generally are "premium Honda's" in Japan, just as Infiniti's are Nissan's and Lexii are Toyota's. Except there is no TL, MDX, or RDX equivalent, those are USDM models only, and were designed in the US (which explains the difference in styling between TL/RL). I believe Toyota recently started marketing Lexus in Japan, and Honda may be doing so soon as well with Acura.

Acura is going through growing pains, and is having trouble establishing an image, as evident with the ever changing corporate grill that they're trying to establish. But to close down would be ridiculous. Take a look at Acura's sales since 1986. There was a decline from 1992 through 1995, and then sales doubled from 1995 to 2004 (98,000 to 198,000). Then in 06 and 07 declines. So they've had two tough years, and it's time to close up shop? How many tough years has GM had?

[thegriffon]

Acura's models generally are "premium Honda's" in Japan, just as Infiniti's are Nissan's and Lexii are Toyota's. Except there is no TL, MDX, or RDX equivalent, those are USDM models only, and were designed in the US (which explains the difference in styling between TL/RL). I believe Toyota recently started marketing Lexus in Japan, and Honda may be doing so soon as well with Acura.

Acura is going through growing pains, and is having trouble establishing an image, as evident with the ever changing corporate grill that they're trying to establish. But to close down would be ridiculous. Take a look at Acura's sales since 1986. There was a decline from 1992 through 1995, and then sales doubled from 1995 to 2004 (98,000 to 198,000). Then in 06 and 07 declines. So they've had two tough years, and it's time to close up shop? How many tough years has GM had?

The MDX is sold widely overseas as a Honda (there is no Pilot outside NA).

[Northstar]

The RL is quite ugly in person. No one was looking at it any of the 5 or so times I walked through the Acura section.

[smk4565]

Actually, the Lacrosse Super does have a much larger engine over the lesser versions and is the fastest Buick ever built. Handling is also said to be top notch for a large FWD V8.

Sadly, the Lacrosse Super ends up having more claim to "all new" than this RL.

Does that mean the LaCrosse breaks the 8 second barrier for 0-60 times that Buick has longed for?

I've seen those ads for fastest Buick ever, since when do Buick buyers care about 0-60 time though, that is like BMW advertising, most floaty Bimmer ever!

The 1987 Buick GNX is 0-60 in under 5 seconds, that crushes the LaCrosse Super, maybe Buick forgot the one good car they built in the last 25 years.

The not so new RL is bad, and a good reason why Acura sales have been dropping in the past couple years. Dressing up the mainstream car and offering V6s only, no V8, no hybrid, no diesel doesn't work in the luxury market. Cadillac better be watching because they are steering themselves closer to Acura (but with rear drive) than BMW.

[Robert Hall]

I was at an Acura dealer today kicking tires and they have a black on black '06 RL on the lot, 34k miles, $34k. I really like the interior design and features, and the exterior is a pretty clean, if bland design. The '05-07 would make a good used car buy for a nice luxury commuter car, I think..

[smk4565]

I was at an Acura dealer today kicking tires and they have a black on black '06 RL on the lot, 34k miles, $34k. I really like the interior design and features, and the exterior is a pretty clean, if bland design. The '05-07 would make a good used car buy for a nice luxury commuter car, I think..

You could get an 03 Mercedes S600 for that much money, and a 500 hp, 590 lb-ft, V12 is cooler than anything on an Acura lot.

[Robert Hall]

You could get an 03 Mercedes S600 for that much money, and a 500 hp, 590 lb-ft, V12 is cooler than anything on an Acura lot.

True...but it would have a lot more miles and dreadful M-B quality (i.e. in the shop all the time).

[smk4565]

There are S600s with under 50k miles for under $40k. I'll bet on an S-class lasting longer than anything from Japan. Every Japanese car gets rust on it in 10 years or less. Those S-classes last for 200-250,00 miles.

[Cory Wolfe]

There are S600s with under 50k miles for under $40k. I'll bet on an S-class lasting longer than anything from Japan. Every Japanese car gets rust on it in 10 years or less. Those S-classes last for 200-250,00 miles.

Strange... I see tons of 10+ year old Japanese cars without a spec of rest. I see many with 250k+ miles, too.

[Drew Dowdell]

Does that mean the LaCrosse breaks the 8 second barrier for 0-60 times that Buick has longed for?

I've seen those ads for fastest Buick ever, since when do Buick buyers care about 0-60 time though, that is like BMW advertising, most floaty Bimmer ever!

The 1987 Buick GNX is 0-60 in under 5 seconds, that crushes the LaCrosse Super, maybe Buick forgot the one good car they built in the last 25 years.

The not so new RL is bad, and a good reason why Acura sales have been dropping in the past couple years. Dressing up the mainstream car and offering V6s only, no V8, no hybrid, no diesel doesn't work in the luxury market. Cadillac better be watching because they are steering themselves closer to Acura (but with rear drive) than BMW.

Top speed of the Lacrosse is higher.

A Corvette can out accelerate a Concord jet liner from 0-60, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree on which one is faster.

Who said Cadillac isn't getting a hybrid or two?

[Drew Dowdell]

You could get an 03 Mercedes S600 for that much money, and a 500 hp, 590 lb-ft, V12 is cooler than anything on an Acura lot.

Who needs a V12 to sit on the freeway idling? He said luxury commuter car, not personal jet.

[Drew Dowdell]

There are S600s with under 50k miles for under $40k. I'll bet on an S-class lasting longer than anything from Japan. Every Japanese car gets rust on it in 10 years or less. Those S-classes last for 200-250,00 miles.

Only the most recent S-classes have been good for reliability. Most of the previous generation S-class had very poor reliability. It was the S-class, M-Class, and C-class that really put the hurt on Mercedes' image. To their credit, the S-class issues appear to have been addressed..... however an '03 model doesn't make that cut.

[Robert Hall]

Only the most recent S-classes have been good for reliability. Most of the previous generation S-class had very poor reliability. It was the S-class, M-Class, and C-class that really put the hurt on Mercedes' image. To their credit, the S-class issues appear to have been addressed..... however an '03 model doesn't make that cut.

Yeah, it seems like the mid '90s to early '00s Mercs are the ones to avoid. The old '80s S-classes wear well. I like Mercs, been around my sister's old ones ('84 500SEL, '91 300CE) and know they do hold up well, but are expensive to maintain and repair as they age. Rust is a non-issue here in Colorado..

[Lamar]

Who needs a V12 to sit on the freeway idling? He said luxury commuter car, not personal jet.

[Robert Hall]

True...but then again, there are so many cars I like and sort of like... I've thought about getting a 2-3 yr old Town Car for a commuter car..they are a bargain used...big and comfy, better gas mileage than my Jeep.. I know I'm about 25 years too young for one, but something about the classic American land yachts appeal to me.

(I know I'm wierd...I like stuff that's ultra-modern (like the CTS) but also like retro and old-school style cars (Panthers, Mustang, Challenger, etc))

Edited February 11, 2008 by moltar

[Lamar]

Does that mean the LaCrosse breaks the 8 second barrier for 0-60 times that Buick has longed for?

I've seen those ads for fastest Buick ever, since when do Buick buyers care about 0-60 time though, that is like BMW advertising, most floaty Bimmer ever!

It's called trying to attract a younger customer base.

[Lamar]

True...but then again, there are so many cars I like and sort of like... I've thought about getting a 2-3 yr old Town Car for a commuter car..they are a bargain used...big and comfy, better gas mileage than my Jeep.. I know I'm about 25 years too young for one, but something about the classic American land yachts appeal to me.

(I know I'm wierd...I like stuff that's ultra-modern (like the CTS) but also like retro and old-school style cars (Panthers, Mustang, Challenger, etc))

No, I hear you. I like big luxury sedans myself, but a twin-turbo V12 as a commuter car in this day and age? My Pathfinder gets the same mileage as the MB that smk was talking about, and I'm seriously considering trading it in because I'm tired of buying gas for it twice a week.

But come later days, and I'm in the market for a big luxury sedan, and I'm not commuting forever to work... oh, it's on.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Lamar

[smk4565]

The 09 Acura RL is so boring, Buicks and 5 year old Mercedes have taken over.

The LaCrosse super isn't going to attract younger buyers. They probably just had some Grand Prix GXP parts they had to use up.

If your commute is 15 miles or less, the S600 would be a fine choice. Smooth ride, radar cruise control and 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. I am not a huge fan of the 2000-2006 era, I like the current one much more. It has messaging seats and the side bolsters in the seat move forward to prevent your body from sliding in sharp corners.

An 03-04 S600 may only get 14-15 mpg, but the car is $125,000 new, vs $40,000 used, for $85,000 you can buy lots of gas.

Edited February 11, 2008 by smk4565

[Robert Hall]

The 09 Acura RL is so boring, Buicks and 5 year old Mercedes have taken over.

The LaCrosse super isn't going to attract younger buyers. They probably just had some Grand Prix GXP parts they had to use up.

If your commute is 15 miles or less, the S600 would be a fine choice. Smooth ride, radar cruise control and 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. I am not a huge fan of the 2000-2006 era, I like the current one much more. It has messaging seats and the side bolsters in the seat move forward to prevent your body from sliding in sharp corners.

My current commute is about 5 miles each way, so my Grand Cherokee with it's 16-18mpg is fine...but my commute may be 25-30 miles each way in a few months, or it may be driving 20 miles to the airport Monday morning and home Thurs evening...(such is the life of a contractor).

I love the big Mercs, wouldn't mind spoiling myself with one...it's just I've read so many horror stories about the maintenance costs and reliability, that I would tend to avoid one...a Lexus LS would be a better used car buy from purely the maintenance and reliability standpoint, I think..

Edited February 11, 2008 by moltar

[Lamar]

If your commute is 15 miles or less, the S600 would be a fine choice. Smooth ride, radar cruise control and 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. I am not a huge fan of the 2000-2006 era, I like the current one much more. It has messaging seats and the side bolsters in the seat move forward to prevent your body from sliding in sharp corners.

An 03-04 S600 may only get 14-15 mpg, but the car is $125,000 new, vs $40,000 used, for $85,000 you can buy lots of gas.

At the present, my commute is about 60 miles (suburbs of Baltimore -> NW DC). I would sooner go for the TL or something.

And much of that $85K would just as soon go to dealer scheduled maintenance before gas.

No matter what kind of deal you may be able to find on a car, you have to factor everything else in as well. For that reason, although I've seen some VWs that I would love to get into, I cannot see myself paying all that money for maintenance and parts at this moment... daggone Germans.

[VenSeattle]

Does that mean the LaCrosse breaks the 8 second barrier for 0-60 times that Buick has longed for?

I've seen those ads for fastest Buick ever, since when do Buick buyers care about 0-60 time though, that is like BMW advertising, most floaty Bimmer ever!

Funny... you're the one who constantly refers back to this comparison by Car and Driver. Have you even read it?

Eighth Place: The Quickest Sedans of 2008: 30,000 to $40,000: 2008 Buick LaCrosse Super

and in case you missed it, Buick's average buyer's age last year was in the mid-fifties:

And while Buick is typically the butt of jokes about buyers who are somewhere between retired and deceased, the average age of a Buick shopper last year was 55.2 years old, considerably younger than the average 63.6-year-old Mercedes-Benz shopper.

[Drew Dowdell]

The 09 Acura RL is so boring, Buicks and 5 year old Mercedes have taken over.

The LaCrosse super isn't going to attract younger buyers. They probably just had some Grand Prix GXP parts they had to use up.

If your commute is 15 miles or less, the S600 would be a fine choice. Smooth ride, radar cruise control and 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. I am not a huge fan of the 2000-2006 era, I like the current one much more. It has messaging seats and the side bolsters in the seat move forward to prevent your body from sliding in sharp corners.

An 03-04 S600 may only get 14-15 mpg, but the car is $125,000 new, vs $40,000 used, for $85,000 you can buy lots of gas.

$85,000 in US dollars.... off to Saudi Arabia....

The Lacrosse Super may lag behind the S600 by 1 second to 60, however, you'll still get there promptly with 157mph top speed and the best handling W-body ever.

When you're not in a rush, you get 25mpg highway and the Super's worst city rating is the same as the S600's combined average rating.

All of this is moot though as the very idea of needing, or even wanting, a V12 for commuter duty is asinine. How fun is that commute going to be when you're coming down Rt. 28 into the city? or waiting in the traffic piled up behind the Squirrel Hill Tunnels like I would have to every morning if I didn't take the bus.....*

*Pittsburgh references... but he lives here so he'll know what I mean even if he doesn't respond.

[Robert Hall]

$85,000 in US dollars.... off to Saudi Arabia....

The Lacrosse Super may lag behind the S600 by 1 second to 60, however, you'll still get there promptly with 157mph top speed and the best handling W-body ever.

When you're not in a rush, you get 25mpg highway and the Super's worst city rating is the same as the S600's combined average rating.

All of this is moot though as the very idea of needing, or even wanting, a V12 for commuter duty is asinine. How fun is that commute going to be when you're coming down Rt. 28 into the city? or waiting in the traffic piled up behind the Squirrel Hill Tunnels like I would have to every morning if I didn't take the bus.....*

*Pittsburgh references... but he lives here so he'll know what I mean even if he doesn't respond.

Having spent plenty of time in the Burgh in my youth, I get the references....the traffic can be pretty bad around there. I like Pittsburgh...it's on my short list of metro areas I'd consider living if I ever move back to the Ohio Valley.

[smk4565]

Luckily I don't have to go through any tunnels, I could never deal with the Squirrel Hill tunnel and the 30 minute back up to travel 3 miles.

I am not saying I'd ever actually buy a used S-class, but they depreciate so fast, and it would be interesting to have a 500 hp V12. Even the 382 hp V8 model is plenty quick.

I never saw the Car and Driver listing of 0-60 times, I just think of Buicks as 3800 powered LeSabres, Regals, Park Aves, LaCrosses and Lucernes that go 0-60 in about 8.2 seconds. And the best handling W-body ever is probably still worse than a run of the mill rear drive car.

[Intrepidation]

$85,000 in US dollars.... off to Saudi Arabia....

The Lacrosse Super may lag behind the S600 by 1 second to 60, however, you'll still get there promptly with 157mph top speed and the best handling W-body ever.

That's not saying much.

Also, good luck when the road gets twisty.

[VenSeattle]

I never saw the Car and Driver listing of 0-60 times, I just think of Buicks as 3800 powered LeSabres, Regals, Park Aves, LaCrosses and Lucernes that go 0-60 in about 8.2 seconds. And the best handling W-body ever is probably still worse than a run of the mill rear drive car.

See for yourself...

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/26/in-the-...lacrosse-super/

With all these things on our mind, we found the LaCrosse Super to be a vastly different vehicle from the base LaCrosse, and were pleasantly surprised at what the Super brought to the road. The performance gurus took a pillow-soft platform and made it stiff and compliant by using much stiffer Bilsteing monotube struts. Steering was also tweaked, and the brakes were up-sized. The result is a Buick that can not only hit 60 in 5.7 seconds, but can also hit a turn at speed without feeling like it's going to tip. The Super is one of those vehicles that makes you think you're not going as fast as you are, so we had to really watch the speedometer while accelerating and cruising on the freeway. The LaCrosse Super's steering is also far more weighted and precise than what we're used to in a Buick, and coupled with four pinned-down wheels, this sedan was both more fun to drive and more luxurious than the V8-powered Impala SS we drove a year ago.

The engineers that put the Super in the LaCrosse deserve a small round of applause for what they did here, as it represents a great deal of fun and amenities for a relative bargain. GM intends to only make as many LaCrosse Supers as people will want, and 10% of overall sales tends to be the magic number. Even though the base LaCrosse can be had with an improved 3.6L V6, our V8-powered Super with a $33,750 price tag is the only LaCrosse that we'd consider. For shoppers looking at a Mercury Sable, Toyota Avalon, or Chrysler 300C, the LaCrosse Super is definitely worth a passing glance.

[Lamar]

Luckily I don't have to go through any tunnels, I could never deal with the Squirrel Hill tunnel and the 30 minute back up to travel 3 miles.

I am not saying I'd ever actually buy a used S-class, but they depreciate so fast, and it would be interesting to have a 500 hp V12. Even the 382 hp V8 model is plenty quick.

I never saw the Car and Driver listing of 0-60 times, I just think of Buicks as 3800 powered LeSabres, Regals, Park Aves, LaCrosses and Lucernes that go 0-60 in about 8.2 seconds. And the best handling W-body ever is probably still worse than a run of the mill rear drive car.

I thought fast depreciation was one of the enemies of true luxury cars.

Oh yeah, GM's press release lists a time of 5.9 sec for the LaCrosse Super. Read it and weep.

[Drew Dowdell]

And the best handling W-body ever is probably still worse than a run of the mill rear drive car.

There are no "run of the mill" rear drive cars anymore. They're all "sport tuned" or something high end Euro spec.

The last "run of the mill" rear drive car from GM was the '96 B-bodies. The only "run of the mill" RWD car left are the Ford Panthers... and I'll bet that even the base LaCrosse handles better than those.

[Paolino]

It has actually changed a lot more than you give it credit for (for better or for worse). It is a "refresh" not a new model. Significant exterior changes, a new engine (with vtec on exhaust for the first time on the SOHC V6 engines -still not sure how that works), much revised suspension and AWD system, and several new luxury features (10-way power passenger seat, heater/cooled, etc etc I don't remember most of the changes off the top of my head).

Wait... they DID do new stuff to the new RL... they switched sides the fuel door is on!!! OMG!!!

Funny... you're the one who constantly refers back to this comparison by Car and Driver. Have you even read it?

Eighth Place: The Quickest Sedans of 2008: 30,000 to $40,000: 2008 Buick LaCrosse Super

and in case you missed it, Buick's average buyer's age last year was in the mid-fifties:

And Chevy's age is increasing... I saw a guy that HAD to be in his 80's or 90's driving a brand new Malibu V6 LTZ. Seeing a lot of them on the road now--LOVE them!

[Drew Dowdell]

That's not saying much.

Also, good luck when the road gets twisty.

Actually, the latest upper level W-bodies handle fairly well for large front drivers. It's just that everyone expects every car to out handle the 3-series and it's crap if it can't... or only comes close... or just beats it in some areas but not others <see: every SMK post about the '08 CTS>.

A Lacrosse Super would be a very comfortable, very capable, very fast commuter car that won't take you to the bank every time you need service or a fill up. Having reliability at the same level of Lexus doesn't hurt either.

More comfortable than a 3-series, more fuel efficient than an S600, same fuel efficiency as a 3-series but doesn't require premium fuel, doesn't require a BMW/MB dealer for something as simple as an oil change, more reliable than both.

[Intrepidation]

Actually, the latest upper level W-bodies handle fairly well for large front drivers. It's just that everyone expects every car to out handle the 3-series and it's crap if it can't... or only comes close... or just beats it in some areas but not others <see: every SMK post about the '08 CTS>.

A Lacrosse Super would be a very comfortable, very capable, very fast commuter car that won't take you to the bank every time you need service or a fill up. Having reliability at the same level of Lexus doesn't hurt either.

More comfortable than a 3-series, more fuel efficient than an S600, same fuel efficiency as a 3-series but doesn't require premium fuel, doesn't require a BMW/MB dealer for something as simple as an oil change, more reliable than both.

That's all well and good, but there's still something that kills it for me: the looks...namely the proportions.

[Intrepidation]

It has actually changed a lot more than you give it credit for (for better or for worse). It is a "refresh" not a new model. Significant exterior changes, a new engine (with vtec on exhaust for the first time on the SOHC V6 engines -still not sure how that works), much revised suspension and AWD system, and several new luxury features (10-way power passenger seat, heater/cooled, etc etc I don't remember most of the changes off the top of my head).

That's funny..they actually did less than I thought. I figured the rear quarter stampings had changed for the new tail lights, but the shape is exactly the same, the difference is just the plastic bumper comes up further to create the new tail light shape.

[the_yellow_dart]

Wait... they DID do new stuff to the new RL... they switched sides the fuel door is on!!! OMG!!!

Actually, the bottom picture of those four is a mirror-image. Look closely at the "ACURA" writing on the license plate.

[Drew Dowdell]

That's all well and good, but there's still something that kills it for me: the looks...namely the proportions.

it doesn't have to appeal to everyone....if it did, it would be a camry

[Intrepidation]

it doesn't have to appeal to everyone....if it did, it would be a camry

That doesn't appeal to me either but I know what you're saying.

[smk4565]

The RL is ugly, the LaCrosse Super is ugly. Both are 300 hp, neither one is rear wheel drive.

GM always makes stuff that "handles well for a large front drive sedan" or "almost as good as the imports but cheaper to buy" or "handles well for a 5800 pound SUV" or "decent gas mileage from a 6.0 liter V8" Why can't they make a car that just handles well. Or that is better than the imports, without putting a qualifier after it.

My next car will be rear drive, I am done with front drive.

[Drew Dowdell]

The RL is ugly, the LaCrosse Super is ugly. Both are 300 hp, neither one is rear wheel drive.

GM always makes stuff that "handles well for a large front drive sedan" or "almost as good as the imports but cheaper to buy" or "handles well for a 5800 pound SUV" or "decent gas mileage from a 6.0 liter V8" Why can't they make a car that just handles well. Or that is better than the imports, without putting a qualifier after it.

My next car will be rear drive, I am done with front drive.

not everyone wants RWD? why is it so hard for enthusiasts to understand this? Should GM really give up competing against the Camry, ES, Accord, Avalon, and Maxima?

The Japanese imports make porker SUVS that handle terrible compared to the GM ones.

The GM 6.0 litre V8 gets good or better gas mileage than many smaller displacement imports.

your problem is that you expect everything to handle as well or better than the 3-series/5-series, at the reliability level of Buick, with the interior from BMW <lord knows why..>, the technological sophistication of BMW/MB/Lexus combined, and the fuel efficiency of a Prius, for the price of a Cobalt. You have completely unrealistic expectations for GM that none of the auto makers meet all of individually, much less in the combined form you expect from GM.

Here are some qualifiers for you? Why can't BMW just make a car where I can change my own oil? Why can't BMW just make a car that I don't have to spend $38k before I'm upgraded out of "leatherette"? Why can't Mercedes just build a car that isn't ranked with Kia for reliability? Why can't Lexus just build a car that has at least slightly more personality than mayo on white? Why can't Infiniti just make a car that doesn't make me feel like I've magically been transported into an uplevel Altima once I get behind the wheel? Why can't Audi just build a car that doesn't have so many electrical bugs that you could film Gremlins 3 in an A6?

Just go buy the 3-series everyone on this board knows you want. You'll be happier that way, we won't have to listen to you pull engine specification wish lists out of your ass, and I won't have to waste my day pwning your every post.

[Robert Hall]

That's funny..they actually did less than I thought. I figured the rear quarter stampings had changed for the new tail lights, but the shape is exactly the same, the difference is just the plastic bumper comes up further to create the new tail light shape.

Yeah, looking at those pics, because of the different angle, I'm not even sure if the front fenders are different...or the hood. This may be completely plastic fascia and lighting changes...

[Bimmer325]

It's not that bad.

No one should have expected a new-from-the-ground-up RL.

[smk4565]

I know everyone doesn't want rear wheel drive, most people don't. Enthusiasts want rear drive, that is why front drive V8 cars or $50,000 luxury cars with front drive aren't needed any longer.

I don't expect everything to handle like a 3 or 5 series, those are the best handling cars in the entry and mid luxury segments. I expect an entry level Cadillac to be close to the 3-series in handling/performance and beat it in something. And I expect the mid level Cadillac to the same when compared to the 5-series and E-class. I wouldn't care if the CTS had a base price of $50,000 if it was better than a 5-series, I'd rather have that then the car that I've seen on Enterprise lots. I also expect Cadillac to have a real flagship car if they are going to say they are a global luxury brand like M-B, Lexus and BMW.

I expect the Malibu to be as good an Accord, or at least as good as an Altima and not have a 4-speed automatic. The 6-speed should have been out at launch, so the car doesn't give the first impression of same old GM dated 4-speed.

GM has more resources than any other car company aside from Toyota, and for years they had the most. There is no reason they can't build vehicles that are top 3 in their segment. But rather than build top notch cars, they chose rebadging and anything that can sell cheap to fleets.